Volume "pad"

[Surfing_Swede]

Ok, here is a practical issue that I'm struggling with and hooping I can find a DIY solution for.

I have a Class A tube amp and I don't seem to be able to get enough of a volume boost for solos (two-guitar-band). When I push it with a boost/overdrive pedal it "drives" the amp more, but there is not enough of an increase in volume. Well, some might say "just use the volume knob or a volume pedal" and I've experimented with that, but I experience the same problem as with the boost pedal unless I make dramatic changes with the guitar pot or volume pedal and then tone and "feel" changes as well ...

This is mainly a problem at gigs since I also sing and can't "fiddle" with the knobs  , and need to just stomp and get the sound.

So here is what I'm thinking:
- Use a boost pedal as a pad (have it engaged and pad the signal and disengaged for solo).
- Make a passive volume stomp (though I'm worried about tone loss). Maybe with two dpdt switches so I can have three volume levels ...

So, has anyone had a similar experience? Recommendations?

Thanks,

Surfing Swede

[jacobyjd]

Are you distorting the output tubes?

Also, does your amp have an effects loop?

[Surfing_Swede]

I guess some ... the amp (a Bad Cat), has Volume and Master, so the preamp is driving the power amp, but I'm not driving it that hard (maybe a third of the way to give it some meat) and it's not a high gain amp per se.

I'll get my drive/gain from pedals, so I'm then driving the pre-amp, and that volume increase is not making it through the pre-amp. Is that correct?

It does not have a FX loop ... if it did I could probably put a boost in there, right?

Surfing Swede

[jacobyjd]

Exactly--if you crank a booster before the preamp, you're just going to get more distortion and MAYBE a hair more volume. If you had an effects loop, you would get a clean volume boost w/ the same booster, provided you don't drive the output tubes too hard.

I'm not sure how to help you though, without an amp modification or a boost @ the PA mixer. If I were you, I'd either look into getting my amp modded w/ a buffered series loop or picking up a new amp.

Otherwise, you can just run the amp clean and use pedals to handle your distortion...but if I had a Bad Cat, I'd want to use the amp distortion too

[jacobyjd]

Otherwise, you can just run the amp clean and use pedals to handle your distortion...

BTW, this is what I do with my AC15--I don't use the amp's distortion much--I like my clean sound a little dirty, so I get it up to that point, then use distortion or fuzz in front of the amp at unity. When it's solo time, I hit my booster (or as is currently the case, I turn off my Black Finger compressor...) and the output tubes distort just a hair, which gives me an edgier tone and a little extra sustain--exactly what I'm looking for to solo.

[Surfing_Swede]

Love the Bad Cat, so getting a new amp is not an option  .

Yeah, no problem getting the extra gain, that part works great (I just push it with a tube screamer) and when I'm the only guitar player that works great ... it's just when competing with other guitar players I don't get enough volume.

What do you think about using a booster as a pad? Would the tone loss be less then with a volume pedal (I don't have a good booster to try with, maybe I'll try with the screamer)?

I could send the amp in to Bad Cat, and add a fx loop, though it's $700 and I would be without the amp. Any DIY kits?

Jacobyjd, thanks for all your input!

Surfing Swede

[jacobyjd]

Some other thoughts come to mind:

-You could use a booster as an eq/effective volume drop--however, this will reduce the amount of distortion you'll get out of your amp, so you're kind of in the same boat.

-Often the best way to cut through the mix for a solo is with a change in EQ, rather than just a volume boost (some boosters do both--like a treble booster, or even your TS. It's changing the freq response while boosting). You could accomplish this with a fixed wah or an EQ pedal (which is how the other guitarist in my band does it--increase in high-mids/treble, slight volume boost overall). Using a compressor wisely may help you here too, especially to preserve the attack of your notes.

-Try looking at things the other way--if it's time for a guitar solo that really needs to stand out, then the members of your band should be willing to back off enough for you to cut through. My band has songs where I don't have to do ANYthing different to solo overtop the mix, because a slight drop in the rest of the band's intensity allows for my sound to be at the top.

[ppatchmods]

have you tried putting the boost in front of your drive pedal? or using a compressor as a boost in front of everything?

[petemoore]

  Buncha things to think of or try:
 More effecient speaker [not very good difference if your's is already pretty effecient].
 Change in EQ...especially a bit of bass cut, bass draws lots of power, not applying that power to the bass means the treble can make a lot more use of it.
 I love my 5e3 tones [tweeked for less bass and etc.] with JJ output 6v6 tubes the power went up some good bit over the EH's, but I have the same deal if I try to compete with another guitar amp...runs out of uumph.
 2x 12'' cabinet seems to help some compared to 1x12''.
 Thing is with the output tube distortion, no matter how you approach [boost the amp volume or pedal boost], doesn't matter because they go distort-o instead of more volume...the EQ 'fix' being the exception here...or more effecient speaker[s, or more watts.

[MikeH]

Yeah, how many watts?  If it's already pretty saturated your not going to coax any more volume out of it.  Your only bet might be a frequency booster of some sort.

[Surfing_Swede]

It's 30W Class A all tube (with a half switch), so plenty loud. Seems like peetmore and jacobyjd are confirming my findings, and by the way, this is not a big issue when using "other" amps. I can then usually get enough volume with a boost/drive. It's only a problem with the Class A all tube amp and the pre is pushing the power amp, though, now after the Bad Cat, I can't play any other of the amps. It just blows them away  .

I also hear/understand the band should interact with the solo, but as anyone in a band knows, these things are sometimes easier said then done. Especially when in a noise-pop kind-of band ...


I like the EQ approace. Maybe I'll look into a treble booster. I still like to try to use a booster as a pad and disengage for solo. Get the right volume/tone for the solo then scale back with booster for rythm (I know kind-of backwards, but who knows?). I've seen/read others do that. Also I've found these:

http://www.diyguitarist.com/PDF_Files/SoloPro.pdf

From the mylespaul.com forum:
"The other way is to just build a volume cut box yourself, which is what I have. I made mine with two 25K pots, and also with a 3PDT switch so that I could use two status LEDs."

Surfing Swede

[Ben N]

I also endorse at least trying the eq approach, but be forwarned that if you have used a tubescreamer as your lead boost, you've already tried eq in a way.

Putting in an fx loop is maybe more surgery than you need, in effect just to put a pad between the preamp and the power amp. If you are already running your master volume full out, then I doubt there there is a whole lot you can do. As noted above, once you are at saturation, it ain't gonna get much louder (although eq can still help you cut through better).

But if your regular settings leave the master somewhere other than 10, you should be able to get a volume boost by using a footswitch-controlled relay to break the master volume's shunt to ground--essentially to take the master out of the circuit. It seems a little counter-intuitive to basically be cleaning your amp up for leads, but if you need every ounce of volume, that'd be the way to do it. Especially if you are getting your dirt from pedals rather than from the amp. If that is too crude, you could use the relays to insert a fixed or variable resistance (pot) in series with the master's shunt to ground, so you could set or vary the amount of boost.

IIRC, O'Connor has some interesting ways to do this in The Ultimate Tone. Anyway, you could probably get this done by a local amp tech for a lot less than $700, although it would definitely void your warranty. Also, there are a lot of different kinds of master volume circuits, so you would probably need a schematic of the amp to know exactly how to do this.

[ashcat_lt]

You can alleviate tone loss by placing anything with a buffer before your passive volume box.

[Surfing_Swede]

Ben, thanks so much for the input. Yeah, I'm hesitant of doing any major surgery on the amp. Master is only at 1/2 so there should be headroom, and come to think of it, the Bad Cat has a small switch already installed that takes the Master Volume out of the circuit. With minimal intrusion I can just wire up a remote switch to it!!! Thank you, I would not have thought about it without your response!

From the amp manual:
Volume
With the Master Volume switched "out" this control is solely responsible for the loudness. With the Master Volume switched "in" this pot works in tandem with the Master. In that case, the higher settings of this pot will give more gain and the Master will be used for overall volume.

Do you think I should use a relay or will just a dpdt do it?

These Class A tube only amps are not as flexible, but damn, do they sound good!

Thanks!

Surfing Swede

[Surfing_Swede]

You can alleviate tone loss by placing anything with a buffer before your passive volume box.

That is really good to know. My tube screamer (which has a buffer), will most likely sit in front of it. I still going to try my theory of dialing in a solo volume/tone that works and then use something to pad it at input (a booster or a volume box/pedal) to bring it down to rhythm levels. Hopefully the tone I'm getting after the "padding" is still good ...
I'm going to be at the rehearsal studio this weekend, we'll see what happens.

Surfing Swede

[Ben N]

If by a DPDT, you mean running your signal 20-30 ft. or so through a remote DPDT footswitch, I wouldn't do it. If you just mean using the switch that is there--no problem, but you have to be at the amp to use it. Subbing a relay for the switch should be fairly simple (assuming you can run the relay off your amps 5v supply) and allows you to control with a footswitch. What's more, with a little cleverness you can rig up a footswitch that will switch in a loop at your pedalboard at the same time that you switch the master out, so with one stomp you can rearrange your gain structure entirely to suit your needs and wants.