press 'n' peel blue help

[felix jones]

after about a month and a few hundred dollars invested in parts and tools, i finally have everything needed to start building...but i'm stuck on what i figured would be the simplest step of each pedal project: getting the pcb layout image onto the copper.

i just cannot get press 'n' peel blue to transfer to the pcb. at best, i get some kind of dark areas, but those are 'splotchy', with holes in the toner. i mostly get barely visible traces, though. i've tried pressing down fairly hard, i've tried not pressing down, i've tried letting the iron sit there for ten minutes.

anyone got any experience with this and have any ideas what it might be? my thoughts are that my iron just does not get hot enough. when i hold my hand close to the iron, it doesn't feel all that hot, maybe low 200°s or so (based on my experience working at pizza places around 400°-500° ovens for years). of course, i may be totally wrong on this. i've been putting the iron on the highest setting, could it maybe be TOO hot?

an idea i've been tossing around in my head the last few days is to just forget the iron and use my oven. would have a better idea and control of the temperature, plus would be handy for doing large batches of pcbs in a short amount of time. i'd probably put something with a bit of weight (five or ten pounds or so) on top of the press 'n' peel and pcb, and stick it in the oven for a few minutes. anybody tried this before? is there a reason why it's not done that way?

i'm not gonna give up, but this is getting really frustrating. i'm really anxious to start soldering and get some (hopefully!) working pedals.

thanks for any advice/help anyone can provide.


alex

...jack irons!...

[amckinley100]

Dude...that sucks!  I've never actually used press'n'peel, but i've had fairly decent results simply by running cheap (~60gsm) paper through the laser printer, ironing that on for about 5 minutes, letting it all cool, then soaking it in water for about 10 minutes applying gentle finger pressure rubbing to remove the paper - the results aren't perfect - i wind up touching up the traces with a pen, and trimming any short circuits scratching away the ink/toner with a penknife.  The trace looks slightly handmade and not at all professional once etched, but it works, and that's the main thing!

Could it be that your iron isn't making full contact with the surface (i.e., have you filed down the edges of the trimmed copper board?) Also, have you cleaned the surface of the board with meths/IPA? maybe grease on the surface isn't allowing the toner to stick.

i've only made 3 boards, but i've done them all in this way and they all work ok (i.e. conduct electricity along the desired traces!)

Hope this was of some help - i find DIY-ers describing their own experiences helps me no end!

Cheers

A

[felix jones]

i scrub the boards with some of those sos pads, and clean them throughly with acetone and rubbing alcohol.

i haven't cut the boards down yet, just picked up a dremel attachment to do that with yesterday. i'm wondering if that could be part of the problem, since the iron is having to heat the whole 4"x6" board, instead of a smaller piece. maybe it would help if i tried with a precut piece, as all the heat of the iron would be concentrated on just that one 2"x1.5" piece instead of wasting it on much of the board. i just haven't had a chance to cut down the board yet. think i'll go do that now. then maybe i'll try it in the oven, see if that gets me better results.


alex

...jack irons!...

[Andy]

I posted a thread a while back on how I did mine but I can't find it.  I did some with perfect results.  

1 CLEAN the copper.  I use Tarn-X and rinse it well. rinse it well. rinse it WELL.  I sometimes go through the extra step of lightly rubbing a 0000 grade steel wool over that.

2 when you print your image onto the transfer paper, using a laser printer on the highest dpi works best.  Also, make sure you're printing onto the DULL side.  I've tried using a copier but that sucks.

3 I have my iron set close to the lowest setting in the steam range.  Turn the steam off though!!  I start by lightly rubbing the the transfer to get the toner to warm up and hold itself to the copper.  AFter you get the transfer to hold itself down. gradually increase your pressure as you rub over the image.  I rub it, press it, let it sit for a few seconds.  The idea is to heat the toner back up and let it melt onto the copper.  

4 After you're pretty sure you've gotten complete coverage, run cold water over the copper and the image until they're not warm.  The idea here is to get the toner to go solid again.  SlOWLY peel back the transfer paper from one CORNER.  If you see some toner not sticking, you can lay the paper back down, and re-heat it.  You will get a feel for it.

5  Now, just take your favorite cutting instrument, mine's a Dremel, and cut the section off the copper, smooth the edges, and touch up any spots you need to with an etch-resistant pen.  I use a sharpie but I would like to find something better.  The Sharpie seems not to work very well.

Hope that helps!!!!

[nightingale]

i had that problem once~
it was when i printed the art onto the board with a xerox copy machine. i switched to a laser printer, the pnp blue transfered much better!
hth,
~ryanS

[felix jones]

just tried again using a piece of board cut to size, and with the iron set to a lower temperature. it was a little better, but not much. still a lot of holes in the traces that did make it to the board, and nothing real dark.

the p'n'p won't stick to the board at all for me. i have to be very careful when i'm using the iron, straight up and down. if i move it horizontally at all the p'n'p just slides. not that it matters, since i'm not getting much transfer anyway.

i do use a laser printer, not a copier.

the most frustrating thing about this is all the raves i've read about how easy p'n'p is to use, yet it's giving me nothing but headaches. i was expecting this step to take all of fifteen or twenty minutes, not days. argh.


alex

...jack irons!...

[MartyB]

Very strange Felix...   My PnPs have been 95+% successful, even counting my first attempts.  Contrary to what some others said, I believe toner transfer is better than laser.  The toner is just powdered plastic that gets melted, transferred to PnP, then remelted onto the copper.  Finding decent toner transfer copiers is alittle more difficult these days though.  The iron setting I use is 'polyester/permanent press/cotton blend'.  Preheating the board alittle is probably worthwhile, although I don't do it regularly.  One bit of advice is to lift the iron, after a short heating of the pnp-on-copper, then reorient in another direction and press again briefly (~10sec).  You might hunt down another cheapo (goodwill?) iron if yours isn't hot enough.  Keep the missus happy by not destroying her 'tools'. :shock:

[Andy]

yeah....it REALLY sounds like your iron isn't getting hot enough.  I'm sure you've checked this too, but are you printing onto the dull side of the pnp?  try to get a hotter setting.  I'm sure you can get too hot, but I'd be willing to bet you'd know if it was too hot.  Another question I should ask is this:  does the pnp appear to flatten out when you iron?  the paper takes on a different shape sorta to say when ironed.  

Does anyone else think that it may be his toner?  Is it possible that his toner doesn't re-heat or maybe it's old toner?

Don't give up dude.  It's just a matter of experimentation!!

[BillyJ]

To me it sounds like your iron isn't hot enough.
You might not be getting enough toner or whatever is in the lazer printers too if your seeing holes in the traces that do stick.

DO this. Find a drugstore that has a lazer printer or copier.
Go there. Buy a new iron. Bring your layout artwork with you.
Mess with the machine with normal cheap paper try different darkness settings. Get it as dark as you can without losing the definition of the traces.
Once you have it at the darkest setting then use that setting for the PNP blue. Be careful some machines will reset if yuo take too long.
I have had a coup epages wasted that way.
Make sure you have at least a couple layout of the one circuit you want to try and maybe some other ones.
SOme folks try to cut them out and tape them separate to another papaer.
I just try to find enough projects that I want to make and fit them in and double some if it is one I will be bummed if it doesn't take.
Cut your boards to size first.
Start at the perm press/wool setting. Don't do a lot of pressure and moving at the same time. I do some rubbing but lightly. I do press hard at times but directly down. I have smudged too many traces rubbing hard.
Sond like you have had that happen.
SOunds like you have the cleaning the boards down.
SHoot I just scrub 'em 0000 steel wool with rubber gloves on throw some dishsoap on them, rinse and go.
Definetly do not give up as it can only be so many variables screwing up the process.
You'llt get it. Try again. Then when you get it down look for cheaper alternatives. They take more experimenting but if you can get somethig working you can save some dough.
Try try again!!!

[felix jones]

i'm starting to rethink my iron not being hot enough. i happened to not throw out a piece of p'n'p i tried yesterday on the hottest setting, and i noticed today that it was blistered and curled up from the heat. i think the others i tried on that setting were blistered, too. the piece from when i tried earlier today wasn't blistered after i used it. andy said it flattens out when ironed, not blister and curl up.

i am printing onto the dull side. i'm now thinking it's the toner. before i waste anymore p'n'p, i'm gonna try a different printer, or a copier or something. wish there were 24 hour copy shops where i live. guess i gotta wait 'til tomorrow. *sigh*

thanks for all the help. i'll let y'all know if i achieve success.


alex

...jack irons!...

[dubs]

If your PNP blisters and curls up, then your iron is too hot and will melt the PNP and nothing will come off. I've only had great success using PNP and it takes alittle playing aorund with your iron settings to get it right. Tonepad has a great pictorial tutorial on using PNP:

http://www.tonepad.com/photoessay.asp?photoEssayID=10&sequenceNo=1

[felix jones]

well, it was my printer and/or toner. i went to a copy shop and had some layouts printed on p'n'p, and just tried one. worked nearly perfect. i think i pressed too hard or left the heat on too long, as some of the traces are flattened and some holes filled, but after some touch up work, it looks like it should work fine, now.

i'm so happy to have this solved, now i can actually start building. woo!

thanks again for all the help and advice, all. i'll probably be asking for more in the near future.


alex

...jack irons!...

[Andy]

ask away dude!!  That's how I learned.  Don't be ashamed to ask the simple questions.  be sure to hop in on the beginner project that aron is hosting.