Muriatic acid/hydrogen peroxide + copper = Cupric Chloride. But how smelly is it

[Skruffyhound]

I've built a bubble tank and I want to fill it up now. I've used Muriatic acid before, for treating fresh concrete before painting, and it gives off alot of chlorides (i.e. stinks pretty bad). What I want to know is : how long does it take for the conversion to the less smelly Cupric, how much less smelly is the Cupric, and for both chemicals are the fumes that come off acidic. I have an extractor for welding which I would like to use, but only if it's not going to fall apart in acid ravaged chunks after a couple of days.
Any advice appreciated.

[Taylor]

I can't tell you whether your extractor will get eaten, but you don't want to breathe the fumes coming from the cupric chloride. It's more potent when you're just adding the chemicals together, of course, but not at all something you'd want sitting around in your house even once it "settles down".

[Skruffyhound]

Alright, thanks for that information, makes me wonder if it's as practical as Ferric in the end if like me you live in a cold place and can't just set it up outside.
Any chemists care to chime in and tell me if the fumes are corrosive. To be practical I need to use the extractor and then bottle the solution up after use, sounds like.
Nobody really mentions the smell on the interweb, "just open the window" or "don't breathe the fumes" but there are people living with open tanks of this in their bedrooms 

[Taylor]

It's tough because there's no universally agreed upon concept of what's ok to put in your body, you know. For example, I personally find cigarette smoke to be hazardous to my breathing and dangerous to my health. Other people I know find it to be quite pleasant and calming. There are people who inhale all kinds of stuff that C. Everett Coop (or his European equivalent) would suggest that they not.

My brain starts hurting (for real) when I spend too much time over the cupric, even with a respirator. Then again, I could just be sensitive.

[StereoKills]

If I remember correctly, Cupric Chloride will release Chlorine gas, at least while the etching process is happening. As someone who works with hazardous chemicals regularly at work, I would highly recommend at minimum good ventilation while the stuff is open and use of a carbon based respirator while etching.

[SonicVI]

yeah, the HCl+H2O2 fumes are pretty bad.  Unless you have a vented hood like in a chemistry lab do not do it inside. 
I would compare the feeling of getting a whiff of it to getting a whiff of ammonia. 

[Paul Marossy]

yeah, the HCl+H2O2 fumes are pretty bad.  Unless you have a vented hood like in a chemistry lab do not do it inside. 
I would compare the feeling of getting a whiff of it to getting a whiff of ammonia. 

Ammonia fumes are very gnarly. I used to have to change the ammonia bottles on blueprint machines once in a while years ago when I was still doing board drafting. Very nasty fumes from a fresh bottle, it was almost overpowering, and they made my eyes feel like they were burning. I wouldn't want anything like that in my house.

[peps1]

Muriatic acid + hydrogen peroxide + copper = Copper Chloride Aqueous Hydrochloric Acid Cu + 2 HCl + H2O2 -> CuCl2+ 2H2O

I etch with it & have a bubble tank on my desk,  there is very little smell.....(as after the first etch you have CuCl2+ 2H2O that is doning the etching, not Cu + 2 HCl + H2O2)  you will only notice a smell when you add Muriatic acid for the first time.  

[robmdall]

Anyone care to post their bubble tank design?

TIA

Rob

[Skruffyhound]

Sure, it's at work so I'll try to take a pic tomorrow.

[peps1]

Anyone care to post their bubble tank design?

Small and simple, but it works fine for me.

[Taylor]

Er, no worries about bubbling cupric getting on your MacBook? 

[peps1]

that what the lid is for

Plus the Macbook has plastic case so no need to worry

[robmdall]

Peps1, thanks for the photos. I am in awe of the simplicity! I was way over thinking my design. Is that an aquarium stone providing the air/bubbles? How low will the stone last in the bath?

Rob

[peps1]

Peps1, thanks for the photos. I am in awe of the simplicity! I was way over thinking my design. Is that an aquarium stone providing the air/bubbles? How low will the stone last in the bath?

Rob

Yep, its just a 6" aquarium stone and has been in use for over a year now working fine! (Iv glued my one down to the bottom of the Tupperware container, as they can have tendency to move round).

The solution is just 2 parts peroxide (9%) 1 Part Muruatic acid......and have been using it for a year also......just leave the pump going over night when the solution needs recharging (when it gets to dark with copper that's been etched)

[Paul Marossy]

That's a very cool little bubble tank for etching PCBs. 

[robmdall]

Peps1, what did you use to glue the stone down? Will a clear silicon sealant work?

Thanks

Rob

[peps1]

hey Rob,

I just used a hot glue gun.....so sure silicon sealant will do the job just fine (probably better!)


may be worth adding, iv also used Muriatic acid + hydrogen peroxidefor etching enclosures too.

[David]

I've built a bubble tank and I want to fill it up now. I've used Muriatic acid before, for treating fresh concrete before painting, and it gives off alot of chlorides (i.e. stinks pretty bad). What I want to know is : how long does it take for the conversion to the less smelly Cupric, how much less smelly is the Cupric, and for both chemicals are the fumes that come off acidic. I have an extractor for welding which I would like to use, but only if it's not going to fall apart in acid ravaged chunks after a couple of days.
Any advice appreciated.

What strength of hydrochloric acid do you use?  The 3% or less you buy at the drug store?  I swallow my pride and get 40% from the beauty supply.  With that much catalysis going on, you don't need a bubble tank.  Plus, the etching is over in about 2 minutes and there's so little vapor you can't smell it unless you practically stick your nose right in the dish.

As always, YMMV...

[peps1]

What strength of hydrochloric acid do you use?  The 3% or less you buy at the drug store?  I swallow my pride and get 40% from the beauty supply.  With that much catalysis going on, you don't need a bubble tank. 

Do you mean 40% hydrogen peroxide?

If you use the 3-9% hydrogen peroxide you get from the drug store you will certainly need a bubble tank to re-oxidise the solution if you plan on using it continuously as a etchant .....the peroxide is oxidizing the copper metal and after you've dissolved the copper into the solution, and used up all the peroxide, the copper chloride does most of the etching for you: CuCl2 + Cu -> 2 CuCl. hence the bubbler giving you oxygen without having to add more hydrogen peroxide (as its really 60-97% water your adding, and diluting your etchant)