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Author Topic: diy sustainer pickup conversion  (Read 40954 times)
trad3mark
Posts: 239


Re: diy sustainer pickup conversion
« Reply #140 on: June 15, 2010, 07:17:50 AM »

i know this is a touchy subject cos there's some grey, but anyway, i was reading more electromag theory, and had a random idea.

ages ago i came across the moog guitar, with the sustainer/anti-sustainer type thing. It seemed cool, although how much i'd use the mute string thing, i'm not sure. ANYWAY, on that subject, i was trying to figure out ways to do that. Initially, i thought, it could probably be done with a good noise gate pretty easily. I know one or two who do that for some synthy sounds, which sounds cool. But what about with the sustainer.

Well going right down to the theory of waves, couldn't it be done with destructive interferrance? If the whole opperation of the sustainer is to create electro mag waves around the strings, couldn't you create one to cancel out the waves? I'd need someone to just verify the theory of that for me, but it seems to make sense.

If it does, there's now the new challenge of how to actually do that with the sustainer driver. Maybe not.



Ok, so although this terminology/analogy i'm about to use is incorrect (I know this!!), it'll simplify things to the max.

Lets say that when we're using the sustainer in sustainer mode, it takes a "positive" wave (I'm just calling it positive! i know it goes +-+-+-+- really quick, ignore that) from the pickup, amplifies it, then shoots it out through the driver, giving a continuous loop of the signal wave. sustain! awesome!
Now what about muting that? Well lets say you play a note. The normal pickup reads this, and sends it into the amplifier. Now, instead of the amplifier sending an amplified "positive" wave to the driver, what if the amplifier also inverted it, just like the diagram above, and THEN shoots it out through the driver. wouldn't that create destructive interferrance, and hence mute the string? My concern was that it would mute, then basically, sustain the "negative" wave, but, if it mutes it, then there'll be no vibration, and hence no wave, for the pickup to read and the amp to amplify.

amidoinitrite?
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Lurco
Posts: 470


Re: diy sustainer pickup conversion
« Reply #141 on: June 16, 2010, 11:29:20 AM »

Feedbackcontrol study: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~eberdahl/Papers/STANM120.pdf
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shadowwolf665
Posts: 4

Alex M.


Re: diy sustainer pickup conversion
« Reply #142 on: February 24, 2011, 01:03:08 PM »

I know this thread hasn't been posted in for a while, but I'm not huge fan of starting a new topic with something that I've already found. Anyways, I have been watching many of the sustainer threads going about the internet, many of which PSW has been in. I have seen many people bash/troll/attack/etc. against him even though he's been encouraging others to use a basic system and add their own touches. So, before I continue, I would personally like to thank PSW for both guidance, the bobbin tutorial, and helping other people get in the right direction (even after having to dig through said post, but I understand his standing on it, so not trolling)
Which is the purpose of this current post.

The Driver
I'm starting with a Fetzer/Ruby for my sustainer driver, which I have done some research on (while also getting to know electronics better) and this is what I've drawn up:


But... Come to find out, it doesn't match Bancika's layout from DIY Layout Creator (a program that I downloaded, but I'm sad to say I don't remember where I got it):


Which the wiring diagram is actually this:


I also got help on the reference for wiring this up from Runoffgroove which host a good source of diagrams and perf layouts.
This is what I understand of the Fetzer/Ruby, that the Fetzer:

http://www.runoffgroove.com/fetzervalve.html

Drives the ruby:

http://www.runoffgroove.com/ruby.html

Which should be able to drive the sustainer pickup. When I combined the two pictures above, I came out with the first picture I posted, but it didn't add up with Bancika's diagram, so, I redrew the perf Diagram (third pic)

The Bobbin
The practice bobbin I plan on using was taken out of a Squire Strat (or as I'm going to call it, the crap strat). I have already removed the tape and wires, which leaves me with this:


Now I know I have to use .2mm wire (32 gauge for the Americans and any other countries that use gauge size) and wrap around the bobbin in a depth of 3mm, while trying to also get an impedance (I believe is the word) of 8ohms. For some reason, I've seen 8kohms pop up here, when in the 300 page PG thread I read a constant 8ohms. so... I'll stick with my 8ohm for now.

Wiring
From what I understood from a wiring diagram on the 300page PG thread, and it was on the last page, the input stage of the F/R goes from the Volume Bridge Pot (which means it'll get its signal from the Bridge Pickup) and the very top ground (in the perf pic) comes from the same pot, but grounded to the bridge itself. The +9v and the ground below it (-9v) are pretty self explanatory. The -out (ground) and the +out go to a DPDT switch, which are then connected to the inner mounts. Then when the switch is pulled one way, the signal will go out normally to the proper start and finish, but when the switch is pulled the other way, two wires cross over so that they switch the signal to the start and finish, supposedly giving it the "harmonic" mode.

The reason for this post is that I'm checking to see if all my "research" is paying off before I dive head first into this project. I have the majority of my parts (missing the 68k resistor, and the 100uf electrolytic cap, and the 32 gauge wire. The sustainer is first going onto my Crap Strat:


And then once I'm happy with what I got, I plan on putting it on my Hando 2 Les Paul look alike


and then quite possibly my friends Dean Razorback, which would be sweet lol

any and all advice is welcome. icon_biggrin
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I stalk the night, waiting for the right moment to strike... That and also wait for the neighbors to wake up to PLAY LOUDER!! AAHAHAHA!!!!!
psw
Posts: 192


Re: diy sustainer pickup conversion
« Reply #143 on: February 24, 2011, 03:00:46 PM »

Thank You Shadow Wolf. Because of the trolling (actually a single member, also a member here) I help people who require it by email (available in my profile) and this is much more productive. I've helped two in the last week, one successful sending this last night:

Quote
by the way..i did manage to get the sustainer hooked up into the ibanez a while back..it actually f*****g worked..i was AMAZED..not that your design worked..that I...ME..could actually build such a device hehe.  If I havent said it enuf man..THANK YOU =D

The other, like so many, just a simple error and misunderstanding. He sent me pics and even video of tests, used the F/R, rewound a single coil, on a guitar much like this strat... but didn't do a couple of things that ensured that it didn't work but I believe will in the very near future. Hear is his driver...



As the many others illustrated, the lower part of the bobbin is blocked off, 3mm space at the top is left to wind on, the coil is fairly well glued all through with PVA. He built the F/R to spec and seemed to be working, but it didn't work....it took a bit of back and forth till I got to actually see the driver like this...

One reason was that he made the very common error of jumping directly to the installation stage before successfully getting the thing to work. It is always best to build the circuit and test it with a speaker, then test it with the driver (taking wires directly from the bridge pickup and holding the driver above the strings well away from the pickups above the neck), ensuring that the middle or any other pickup coil is completely disconnected from the circuit (both ground and hot, so not just simply de-selected). Other pickups can be accommodated with a 4pdt bypass on/off switch. Assuming that it will work before it does work is never a good thing but on a typical strat, it is a lot of work to take the scratch plate off and when you do, how are you going to test it while still having a working guitar?

This would have made things easier, but was not the actual cause of the problem. The middle pickup could be easily disconnected but the driver looks ok, should be getting something?

No, because he thought it would be a good idea to make a more 'blade' type thing with an internal magnet...this is not strictly the design. His magnet then looks like this...



Not good and took a few emails and tests till this was revealed. The magnet was on the bottom flat, but now inside on its side with the north/south not going through the core but to either side....clearly not what we want (looks neat, might even work with an HB type magnet that is N/S along the edge, but not this one)...if not for this, and judging by the video he sent, it would easily have worked and I expect a similar email to last nights very soon.

On the circuit, it's not one I personally have used, but many have including these two with success. Unlike my 'troll' i don't have a problem with the LM386 as a simple amp for the project and beginners. It is still the heart inside the Ebow for instance, and I still use them in my own guitar...though i have used many amps over the years and have options. The Fetzer part is designed for "tone" (ie distortion) which is not the most appropriate for the project...but really the point of the 'preamp' is almost entirely simply to prevent loading on the pickup with the driver connected and the fetzer will do that and again, has been successful.

The RoG circuits though are slightly too basic. A 10uF cap added between pins 1 and 8 in series with the trim gain pot there helps to keep things stable and stop internal oscillation (squeal) at high gains for instance (such things are clear in the data sheet for the chip). Generally I use a 100uF output cap instead of the 220uF cap in the circuit there, this gives the circuit a more high end bias and so moderates the low string response (the thicker, slower strings are a little too responsive) while helping drive the high strings (with less metal in them and faster speed, harder to drive physically).

Another thing to do is to be sure to test all this with a battery and ensure that it is good. Many will try using a power pack, but this can give false results...the voltage may be 9 volts, but the current could be more than a real battery will be able to provide. Also, such power often will contain noise that can get into the ground and cause problems, unless you are intending to plug the guitar into the wall when done, use a battery. On that also with a strat and similar, you are going to need to change it, so in the main cavity where you may need to remove all the strings is not likely the best place...many have squeezed it into the trem cavity. I personally think the trem is a great addition to a sustainer guitar, but some have got a battery in there and still use it ok.

One other problem that comes up on guitars like this and the guy I'm helping here has been finding, the driver is the heart of this thing and you should get some response with any simple amplifier circuit if it works (tested with a speaker right), but the source pickup is also important. A low quality SC pup, especially in a poorly shielded strat or with wires hanging out while testing tends to pick up a bit of noise, especially in a testing environment. Any noise will be amplified and transmitted by the driver and do nothing to drive the strings and may even be detrimental. An HB is ideal, but my first sustainer was such a guitar, so it can work, just be aware and keep noise to a minimum and ensure all other pups are completely disconnected not just 'de-selected' as with the pickup selector that keeps the ground hard wired.

...

Alright, so these are the general mistakes to avoid and such and my contact address is there for most to see. Most mistakes are fairly simple but can be hard to understand or identify unless everything is disclosed and clear pictures like the above are necessary. The driver above is being rebuilt as it was constructed, poles and magnet below and there are lots of pics about of such conversions....no need to move the magnet or to have a rail type typical of what I tend to use.

As I say, most productivity can be made with direct non public email conversation and many people have become friends and many others have simply built the thing and it worked and just dropped by to thank me. My Telecaster is still going strong with a sustainer very similar to this basic model and useful, I still work on guitars and just gone back to a strat with some neat writing and features (but no sustainer) and in the infancy stages of putting together a home studio. I have no doubt that the sustainer will make some appearance in the recording environment, but remember it is just an effect, a unique and fascinating thing, but not hte be all and end all of guitar technology!

Hope this helps a bit and others who may be contemplating this and again, contact direct by email is better than muddying up the forums while ironing things out and inadvertently giving the impression that there are problems with the project when it may just be a simple 'good idea' gone wrong, like mounting the magnet sideways...oh, and good luck! Pete
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DougH
Posts: 6026


WWW
Re: diy sustainer pickup conversion
« Reply #144 on: February 24, 2011, 05:00:11 PM »

That's a helluva first post...
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"I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you."
Gurner
Posts: 1314


Re: diy sustainer pickup conversion
« Reply #145 on: February 25, 2011, 06:52:13 AM »

Since your questions haven't been answered, I'll chime in....

(& I'll even keep it short!)

In your first hand drawn circuit, you've essentially joined two 'front ends' in front on the LM386 ....this isn't necessary (you've also missed important some components off the LM386 output - see the LM386 pin5 components on the ruby, it's correct .....btw some refer to the required cap & resistor as a zobel network...remember to use this phrase at every opportunity to appear 'learned'  Grin)

For your sustainer MkI, just go with the vanilla ruby circuit....it has all the basics you need - the FET buffers your guitar, the LM386 provides the gain....job done.  

Rearrange that phase reversal switch, so that the two 'common' poles feed your two driver wires (therefore only two wires feed out to your driver, vs the 4 wires to your driver as per  your diagram)

Be aware that once the initial "Woooaah - my string is moving on its own"...novelty has subsided (ie after about 30 mins of playing U2's "with or without you"  icon_mrgreen) you'll begin to realise all  the shortcomings relating to this most basic of DIY sustainers, but that's when your own experimentation comes into play...Good luck!
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 08:55:18 AM by Gurner » Logged
Maik
Posts: 220



Re: diy sustainer pickup conversion
« Reply #146 on: January 30, 2012, 10:25:52 AM »

Hi,

Rockinger in germany sell 0,063 or 0,056mm wire. Is it ok? I know I have to calculate the windings new...
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ashcat_lt
Posts: 684


Re: diy sustainer pickup conversion
« Reply #147 on: January 30, 2012, 06:14:04 PM »

Hi,

Rockinger in germany sell 0,063 or 0,056mm wire. Is it ok? I know I have to calculate the windings new...
No.  No it's not.
Logged
Loggie
Posts: 65


Re: diy sustainer pickup conversion
« Reply #148 on: November 25, 2012, 09:02:13 AM »

I know this thread hasn't been posted in for a while, but I'm not huge fan of starting a new topic with something that I've already found. Anyways, I have been watching many of the sustainer threads going about the internet, many of which PSW has been in. I have seen many people bash/troll/attack/etc. against him even though he's been encouraging others to use a basic system and add their own touches. So, before I continue, I would personally like to thank PSW for both guidance, the bobbin tutorial, and helping other people get in the right direction (even after having to dig through said post, but I understand his standing on it, so not trolling)
Which is the purpose of this current post.

The Driver
I'm starting with a Fetzer/Ruby for my sustainer driver, which I have done some research on (while also getting to know electronics better) and this is what I've drawn up:


But... Come to find out, it doesn't match Bancika's layout from DIY Layout Creator (a program that I downloaded, but I'm sad to say I don't remember where I got it):


Which the wiring diagram is actually this:


I also got help on the reference for wiring this up from Runoffgroove which host a good source of diagrams and perf layouts.
This is what I understand of the Fetzer/Ruby, that the Fetzer:

http://www.runoffgroove.com/fetzervalve.html

Drives the ruby:

http://www.runoffgroove.com/ruby.html

Which should be able to drive the sustainer pickup. When I combined the two pictures above, I came out with the first picture I posted, but it didn't add up with Bancika's diagram, so, I redrew the perf Diagram (third pic)

The Bobbin
The practice bobbin I plan on using was taken out of a Squire Strat (or as I'm going to call it, the crap strat). I have already removed the tape and wires, which leaves me with this:


Now I know I have to use .2mm wire (32 gauge for the Americans and any other countries that use gauge size) and wrap around the bobbin in a depth of 3mm, while trying to also get an impedance (I believe is the word) of 8ohms. For some reason, I've seen 8kohms pop up here, when in the 300 page PG thread I read a constant 8ohms. so... I'll stick with my 8ohm for now.

Wiring
From what I understood from a wiring diagram on the 300page PG thread, and it was on the last page, the input stage of the F/R goes from the Volume Bridge Pot (which means it'll get its signal from the Bridge Pickup) and the very top ground (in the perf pic) comes from the same pot, but grounded to the bridge itself. The +9v and the ground below it (-9v) are pretty self explanatory. The -out (ground) and the +out go to a DPDT switch, which are then connected to the inner mounts. Then when the switch is pulled one way, the signal will go out normally to the proper start and finish, but when the switch is pulled the other way, two wires cross over so that they switch the signal to the start and finish, supposedly giving it the "harmonic" mode.

The reason for this post is that I'm checking to see if all my "research" is paying off before I dive head first into this project. I have the majority of my parts (missing the 68k resistor, and the 100uf electrolytic cap, and the 32 gauge wire. The sustainer is first going onto my Crap Strat:


And then once I'm happy with what I got, I plan on putting it on my Hando 2 Les Paul look alike


and then quite possibly my friends Dean Razorback, which would be sweet lol

any and all advice is welcome. icon_biggrin


hallo
I've realized that circuit, I've need of wiring, how I can solder the driver and input.
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deadastronaut
Posts: 8757


Rob H. LONDON


WWW
Re: diy sustainer pickup conversion
« Reply #149 on: November 26, 2012, 12:01:52 PM »

IIRC...

take ''bridge'' selector switch to circuit input.

take circuit output to dpdt harmonic/fundamental switch to circuit out...


is it working on all 6 strings?.. top B+E?...hmmmm..... Wink











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