How To Get This Tone When Playing Live?

[Paul Marossy]

Has anyone ever built something that gets a tone like I get in this video? This is my my classic recording sound using with my Zoom 9030 with a built from scratch preset directly into a recording program, but I'd like to be able to get this sound live without using my Zoom. I know this is in stereo and that's part of the sound and feel, but the general tone I haven't been able to get live. Stuff usually sounds too harsh when I get close, which is where my love/hate relationship with guitar speakers rears its ugly head. -- Any ideas?

[deadastronaut]

hi paul...

have you tried the spitfire v3?...its a good allrounder metal/rock/blues.....pcb/layout/schematic in my gallery

this is recorded straight into a mixer...no amp.

but still has a good riffage and lead sound...goes from fat to thin whilst retaining the fatness too.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ1y8gikPqQ&list=UUGP0eO8ADt0H9FY5UcHTf8A&index=6&feature=plcp

and with a cry baby..no amp still, direct into mixer..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaBQ8dnfiPk&list=UUGP0eO8ADt0H9FY5UcHTf8A&index=7&feature=plcp

its great through an amp...

[Paul Marossy]

That's a great sounding pedal, I'll check it out. You sound like you are a Joe Satriani fan. I like how the light seems to be eminating from your strings in that second video.

My problem has always been that when playing things thru an amp it sounds too harsh for my liking. Must be how guitar speakers are designed I guess. I almost need to play thru hi-fi speakers to get what I want.

EDIT: How do I get to your gallery? I'm interested to see your circuit.

[artifus]

hi paul - i think da's gallery profile is chickpea. http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/chickpea/SPITFIREV3.jpg.html

also, interesting guitar - is it one of these? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUyQJVVufEM#t=5m45s

[Paul Marossy]

hi paul - i think da's gallery profile is chickpea. http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/chickpea/SPITFIREV3.jpg.html

also, interesting guitar - is it one of these? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUyQJVVufEM#t=5m45s

Thanks for the link to the gallery. Gotta love it, another J201 circuit.

Yeah, I have a '95 Parker Fly Deluxe. I wanted one from the first day I ever saw one in the early 90s. I can never go back now that I have one. Adrian's guitar has a sustainer pickup which I would LOVE to have in my guitar, but that's not something easily done due to the very thin sculpted body.

[artifus]

Adrian's guitar has a sustainer pickup which I would LOVE to have in my guitar, but that's not something easily done due to the very thin sculpted body.

external electronics? thought you may be interested in his amp-less live/monitoring set up too, i'm assuming two stereo pairs - one for loops and one for live playing but just guessing and we don't get to hear any distorted tones which is where it may all fall over tone wise depending on your tastes.

[Paul Marossy]

I don't want to be that elaborate. I just want a pedal that will get close to my sound but in a live setting thru an amplifier.

[aron]

Take your zoom out live and play through a powered monitor. Those sound great and will get you close to your recorded sound.

[artifus]

this is what i was getting at. however, mic'ing the monitors will influence the foh sound too, so i'd suggest the monitor for on stage monitoring and a di from zoom to house pa. results dependant on quality of monitor, pa and venue acoustics, of course.

*edit* also, assuming you've tweaked the zoom to sound good at home/in the studio or via your headphones, make a copy of your favourite zoom preset to twiddle with in sound checks for venue adjustments. regular venue presets could then be saved for future use, along side your vanilla preset. have a long lead to walk out front and have a listen with and be friendly towards your sound person.

[Ronan]

My problem has always been that when playing things thru an amp it sounds too harsh for my liking.

What sort of amp and speakers are you using Paul?

[deadastronaut]

when ive used digital multi fx live in the past i go direct into pa...no amp at all. .....or i have had to use a clean ss amp.....

however i don't use digital stuff now, as i don't like 'having' to use noise gates, it just ruins any flow/expression in playing...

[cthulhudarren]

This is a problematic issue. Usually settings that sound great to a person playing solo will get buried in the mix if you are playing live with a band.  You will have to tweak it (usually adding midrange and treble and cutting bass) if you want to be heard in a band setting.

[ayayay!]

First of all, you're not fooling anyone Louis C. K.

Now that that is out of the way...

I'm with Aron:  A lot of those Zoom's have very good cabinet emulators built in.  To me, cab emulators are far more important than amp emulations.  I usually end up with something like a Matchless DC30 combo with Celestion Vintage 30 2x12 cab... something like that...

I know I've pimped this before, but the Behringer Ultra-G GI100 with 4x12 emulation is a $35 Hughes & Kettner Redbox clone.  I use it live when I can't bring an amp.  Just pedalboard direct to the Ultra-G. Here's a warts-and-all recording from the pedalboard.    http://soundcloud.com/big-27/bdi

[Paul Marossy]

Take your zoom out live and play through a powered monitor. Those sound great and will get you close to your recorded sound.

I do have a 2nd Zoom 9030 on the way that I intend to use with a PA system environment, but I also want to get that sound with my pedal board set up (if possible). In the other scenario I play in, going thru the PA system would not be a good choice for me.

What sort of amp and speakers are you using Paul?

Normally I'm using my self-modded Fender 2x12 Hot Rod DeVille that has some Celestion speakers in it. But the problem for my ears goes beyond what amp/speaker combo I have, I think it's just how guitar speakers are designed. PA speakers would have more of a flat response, right? I think that is really the root of the problem for me. 

[mac]

Normally I'm using my self-modded Fender 2x12 Hot Rod DeVille that has some Celestion speakers in it. But the problem for my ears goes beyond what amp/speaker combo I have, I think it's just how guitar speakers are designed. PA speakers would have more of a flat response, right? I think that is really the root of the problem for me.

And a 2.2uf - 4.7uf cap across the speakers?

mac

[Ronan]

It could be (just thinking out loud) that the Fender input stage is pulling out a heap of midrange (which is what it is designed to do). If your Zoom has a line out, try connecting it to the "power amp in" socket of the Fender, which will bypass all the Fender tone controls and Master volume. Be careful as the Zoom volume will become the master volume for the Fender, so set it low at first. Well worth a try.

[Gus]

Paul

This sounds like an EQ issue

What does the EQ (AMP/speaker emulator?)curve look like in your preset?  If you know what that looks like, the next step is what amp and its sound will you be using.

The high end edge with the amp/speakers should be helped with an added lowpass.  The mids and lows you want might be achieved by adding and subtracting EQ to the amps EQ.

So the effect might be
a buffer stage 1meg input resistance
One or Two band parametric, etc.  EQ for the mids and lows with boosts and cuts and variable Q.  R.G. has an EQ section at GEOFEX
A lowpass filter, this can be as simple as a RC filter
An output buffer

If you can borrow an EQ you might be able to find the frequencies and settings you need to build a fixed small version of the EQ.  Maybe something like a Boss PQ-4

First test could be a dual buffer with a lowpass filter between stages.  I would try something like the Rat tone control .  Try this first to see if it removes the "edge".

[Paul Marossy]

And a 2.2uf - 4.7uf cap across the speakers?

No, no caps across the speakers. I messed with stuff in the preamp and power amp sections that changed stuff before I even thought about using the Celestions in it. They're a pair of 16 ohm so the load on the OT is 8 ohms instead of 4 ohms like designed. All that stuff makes the amp much more to my liking and it's probably not that characteristically Fender-y sounding anymore --  http://www.diyguitarist.com/GuitarAmps/HRD_Mods.htm

It could be (just thinking out loud) that the Fender input stage is pulling out a heap of midrange (which is what it is designed to do). If your Zoom has a line out, try connecting it to the "power amp in" socket of the Fender, which will bypass all the Fender tone controls and Master volume. Be careful as the Zoom volume will become the master volume for the Fender, so set it low at first. Well worth a try.

That's an idea. But the whole point is to get that sound without the Zoom 9030, something that can be on my pedal board, a pedal.  

[Paul Marossy]

Paul

This sounds like an EQ issue

What does the EQ (AMP/speaker emulator?)curve look like in your preset?  If you know what that looks like, the next step is what amp and its sound will you be using.

The high end edge with the amp/speakers should be helped with an added lowpass.  The mids and lows you want might be achieved by adding and subtracting EQ to the amps EQ.

So the effect might be
a buffer stage 1meg input resistance
One or Two band parametric, etc.  EQ for the mids and lows with boosts and cuts and variable Q.  R.G. has an EQ section at GEOFEX
A lowpass filter, this can be as simple as a RC filter
An output buffer

If you can borrow an EQ you might be able to find the frequencies and settings you need to build a fixed small version of the EQ.  Maybe something like a Boss PQ-4

My Zoom 9030 I bought in 1992. It doesn't have curves you can look at. It does have a few cabinet simulators and a decent EQ built into it, though. I think you might be right about the EQ thing. I have a Boss EQ pedal that I modded that might help with that. That way I could theoritically notch a little out the frequency response that I find not so nice in guitar speakers.  

[artifus]

http://www.sillanumsoft.org/

*edit* ^ freeware. maybe worth checking out the zooms output for any clues and for comparing with other pedals. trust your ears at the end of the day but may be useful for spotting any oddness.