DIYstompboxes.com

here ya go. should be good to go. yes, could probably make the vero a little smaller.
schematic to follow soon.

this circuit has been thru some changes since i started it, a lot of discovery along the way including a few epiphanys where suddenly esoteric info made more sense..
like adding the trimmer to the original version's attack control to dial in the response of that control...i could replace it with a 22k resistor, but i like being able to tweak it.
it borrows the old "britface" temp stabilization mod for q1, as it's an npn germanium.
i grounded the emitter of q1 for max gain, which seemed to work out well.
found that using a diode clipper from e  of q2 seemed to add a  nice compression and sustain.
a broad range of fuzz sounds, from relatively clean to putrid jagged filth that would make Lucifer's Trip smile is available with a tweak of tr1.
tr 2 will let you vary the attack...and the compression...as well as the overall voicing of the fuzz. the larger the resistance, the less effect the attack control will have, but the greater the compression available will be.
tr3 is more for fine tuning, but seems to help get it the last "little bit" of balls available.
the output buffer helps add a little sparkle, and adds a little to the available grind.
this thing sustains like a mother@#$%er, but never loses the fuzz edge...you can dial it from clean, to overdrive to crunch to distortion to fuzz to shattered ice right from your guitar. i used this thing last nite live and was actually amazed it worked as well as it did..
i found optimal settings were 3 o'clock on attack and volume, and 12:00 on volume.
anyways, i think i like it.
the original vision was to add a rangemaster to a two tranny tonebender, but i ended up basing it on the silicon tonebender andrew carrell and ricky d. vance worked up a long time ago.
my total lack of knowledge really came into play as this thing developed over the last 2 years..and the same basic cct kept evolving.
while the one i'm rocking actually has a daughterboard for the buffer, the vero layout i worked up has it all on one board.
since i haven't built this version yet, it's not ver-o-fied, but i believe it to be good, as there's not too much i could screw up on it.
nice sounding cct...have a play on the breadboard, criticisms and advice as always gladly accepted!!

and with no further babble, here ya go...the toneblaster mk 2.5, probably the closest to an almost original circuit i've come up with (which isn't saying much)

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/548592_4619926509081_951027214_n.jpg)

schematic to come, and of course, stupid pedal trick...

if you build this, please let me know!!

peace out, happy xmas/kwanzaa/chanukah/whatever floats your boat. just have a decent day! ;)

EDIT> CAUTION TO NOT MISS TRACK CUT BEHIND RESISTOR AT C9 ADDED..

here's the schematic....thanks rutabaga bob!!

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/548774_4620083393003_552699716_n-1.jpg)

The first stage should be OK without the Ge diode (470K C to B, 100K B to ground) Have you tried it with out it and done a temperature test?

What does the  1n4148 (left in the schematic) do in the Q2 emitter leg?  looks like an extra part to me.

You can do better with the EF buffer at the end.  Reduce the 100Ks values add a cap from the center node to ground.  Adjust the DC bias more toward +9 as drawn the Emitter sit about .6VDC less then 1/2 the supply voltage(change the ration of the resistor drawn as 100ks).  Hint look at the sims I have posted at this forum, look at the buffers for ideas.

C5, R11 where did that idea come from?

Have you tried a Silicon transistor at the first stage?  Try something like a TIP29.
The way this circuit is drawn it looks to me that it will not make much difference maybe adjust R7 and R3 for the collector current and gain you want.

NOTE  R7 is part of the DC bias and feedback for setting the gain of Q1, this stage interacts with the guitar/cable RLCs before it.  This looks like it will work OK with a guitar before it but what happens when you use something like a TS before it with an output buffer and low output resistance.

A EF note R3, R4 values/ratio

(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=47997&g2_serialNumber=1)

hi gus!
thanks for looking at this for me, and the great feedback...i'll try to answer where i can below...

Quote from: Gus on December 12, 2012, 06:53:28 AM
The first stage should be OK without the Ge diode (470K C to B, 100K B to ground) Have you tried it with out it and done a temperature test?

i added the diode way back when i first started messing with this project about a year or so ago, after i had so many problems with my fuzzface and the cold.
not knowing what i'm doing, i figured i'd try it. i haven't tried a temperature test, but it seems to be stable in my house, on stage, even when it's been left in my car's trunk overnite and is freezing cold. my fuzzface would have a gas attack over that!! ;)

Quote
What does the  1n4148 (left in the schematic) do in the Q2 emitter leg?  looks like an extra part to me.

i thought so...originally, i tried to use a diode clipper i had twisted together, just experimenting. i also tried grounding the emitter of q2 directly, but it lost all its dynamics, unlike q1 where it seemed to bring it to life. i don't know what it's doing, but it definitely has an effect on the sound, i guess the diode only conducts when the signal level is pretty high. half wave rectifier i'm imagining?  you answered my question about which of the diodes could be eliminated, thanks bro!

Quote
You can do better with the EF buffer at the end.  Reduce the 100Ks values add a cap from the center node to ground.  Adjust the DC bias more toward +9 as udrawn the Emitter sit about .6VDC less then 1/2 the supply voltage(change the ration of the resistor drawn as 100ks).  Hint look at the sims I have posted at this forum, look at the buffers for ideas.

this particular buffer was just a daughterboard i had added when i first built this...trying to get more balls out of it. originally, this thing sounded more like a compressor than a fuzz!! it was based on the silicon tonebender schematic by andrew carrell, but i wanted to go with ge in the front end...and, being clueless, i just kept messing with it til it sounded right, it's been a work in progress of intermittent tinkering ever since.
what i've learned <slowly> thru this time came into play...was a major epiphany for me when i realized how to make the attack control work the other day. it DID, kinda sorta...before. but it was almost imperceptable. i was using a 5k pot, which was way too big. first thing i did was try 1k, which made it better, but still hardly noticeable. i looked at the attack control circuit, and realized the voltage divider of r9 and r10 was sucking the life out of it, so i figured the quickest way to check was to use my handy dandy roach clip leads and stick a 100k pot in parallel with r9.
i dialed it in until the attack seemed to work,  and measured the pot...was reading 26.66k...so i used a parallel resistor calculator and discovered in parallel it was around 21.xxx k...i figured i could use a resistor around 22k or so, but i liked the pot...you can really dial in the compression as well as the attack of the circuit with it. again...all happy accidents, i am in no way shape or form anything but a crude hack still. but that epiphany marked a turning point, where suddenly for maybe the first time i made the right mental connection to figure it out.

Quote
C5, R11 where did that idea come from?

that was on the original schematic i had based this on, i think. is it unnecessary? again, gus, i'm a hack...i'll sit and tinker, swapping parts in and out until it sounds like something i like.
doesn't mean it's any GOOD!! ;) but this thing sounded great last nite at the gig.
i didn't even use my pedalboard...this, one of my wahs, and an echoplex into my hot rod princeton. i had some of the best tone i've had in years. i never turned this pedal off all nite!!
turn down for clean, turn up for scream. i was surprised how well it works. when the guitar is cranked, it's a little "edgy", but in a kinda good way. and it never seems to forget it's a fuzz.
when the guitar is pegged, it's a sick unit!!

Quote
Have you tried a Silicon transistor at the first stage?  Try something like a TIP29.
The way this circuit is drawn it looks to me that it will not make much difference maybe adjust R7 and R3 for the collector current and gain you want.

nope, never tried silicon in the first stage. these are the original transistors i had started the project with. only q1 is socketed. the others are soldered in.
do you mean i could use say, a 500k pot there as a voltage divider instead of r7 and r3? that would be cool, could dial it in for different transistors. but... doesn't grounding the emitter of q1 give it max gain anyways? it had ZERO balls before i did that. the wimpiest fuzz of all time, like i said, more of a compressor than a fuzz.

Quote
NOTE  R7 is part of the DC bias and feedback for setting the gain of Q1, this stage interacts with the guitar/cable RLCs before it.  This looks like it will work OK with a guitar before it but what happens when you use something like a TS before it with an output buffer and low output resistance.

you CAN'T. it has to be first, like a fuzzface. if you put it before anything else, it's ok...unless it's a fuzzface. the buffer totally makes it sound like poo. but, a fuzzface before it (no buffer) seems to be fine!! it is very interactive with my guitars...i've played it with my strat at rehearsal monday, and my sg at the gig last nite, and it was insane.
if the guitar is turned low, you can get any shade of grit completely with pick dynamics. i don't know why, but it does it! when the guitar is cranked, same phenomenon... play real light, and it's clean...and grinds more, and gets louder, the harder ya whack it.  anyways, it seemed to be ok with a crybaby in front of it, but nothing else seems to work really. this thing wants to be first in line. if using it as a pure fuzztone (like, guitar on 10) it's probably fine. but i'm all over the place with volume, and it seems to respond really well to the guitar dynamically.

Quote
A EF note R3, R4 values/ratio

i would have to build it gus, i don't know enough to look at stuff yet and really understand it.  so the ratio of a voltage divider in a case like this should be around 1:2? or am i not understanding? quite possible...no rocket scientist here!!! ;)

not sure!

this thing as drawn/laid out is just what i had cobbled together, so i know there's room for improvement. thanks so much for taking the time to help me bro! ;)

i think when/if i build another variation, i will try the changes you suggest. this thing sounds freekin' great, so anything that will improve on it is welcome!!
stupid pedal trick to come soon!



(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=47997&g2_serialNumber=1)
[/quote]

here ya go, video or it never happened...



let me know whatcha think...

To the best of my knowledge I was the one who first posted the lowpass like C5, R11.

Look for the 3 transistor fuzz and the rocket  and other FF like fuzz circuits I have posted over the years.

Look at how I wire a bias control to a FF like circuit, again in my sims and posts at this forum and also in schematics in the schematics link at the top off the page

Look at the Hot Silicon schematic for what I think is a good first stage for a Si TB like circuit. I designed that first gain stage for a gain of about X10 and an input resistance that can work with a guitar or another effect.  Doug took my basic 3 transistor circuit and add a tone control and another stage and adjusted for something different

Have you removed the one reverse biased diode in the diode pair in the emitter leg(left one) to see if the sound changes?

Quote from: Gus on December 12, 2012, 06:39:39 PM
To the best of my knowledge I was the one who first posted the lowpass like C5, R11.

it was on the schematic i referenced, i don't know who did it originally, or if it was even part of the original circuit, bro...here's the schematic i based my pedal on originally, you'll see the r/c network is on it...i think i first looked at this about a decade ago when i first got on line. if it's yours, props, cuz it does seem to sound great!

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/28769_4624524224021_1624133871_n.jpg)

Quote
Look for the 3 transistor fuzz and the rocket  and other FF like fuzz circuits I have posted over the years.

i think i have every single one in my archive of effect schematics. i am just beginning to get savvy enough to recognize parts of circuits and where they come from. i will look at them, i've been planning on trying several, but i haven't been able to build much lately, the girl got a little pissy about me taking up the dining room table for 3 - 4 months at a time. ;)

Quote
Look at how I wire a bias control to a FF like circuit, again in my sims and posts at this forum and also in schematics in the schematics link at the top off the page

Look at the Hot Silicon schematic for what I think is a good first stage for a Si TB like circuit. I designed that first gain stage for a gain of about X10 and an input resistance that can work with a guitar or another effect.  Doug took my basic 3 transistor circuit and add a tone control and another stage and adjusted for something different

i have that, i'll look at it, thanks gus. but remember...comprehension here is just dawning ...just barely. ;)
did ya get a chance to check the video? maybe it's just me, but to me this thing sounds a bit different from all the other fuzzes i've built so far.

Quote
Have you removed the one reverse biased diode in the diode pair in the emitter leg(left one) to see if the sound changes?

nope, haven't bothered, figuring if it's not broke.. but i seem to remember trying a jumper, a pot, a couple resistors and  a couple diode types before settling on the diode clipper i put there. it may be me, but i thought it had a little more compression with the clipper, as opposed to a resistor or jumper.

10,000 monkeys with 10,000 typewriters. ;)

when i build another, i will try it with the single diode and see if it changes. i expect it will, a little.

what would be a good way to raise the input impedance of the cct? is it something my non-intelligent self will figure out looking at the examples you cited?
will it change the tone of the pedal? cuz i really, really dig the sound of this thing!!

too many questions, i know...thanks bro~!!

jimi: im trying to draw up the schematic in eagle, but your handdrawn doesnt match up to you vero.
-where are the other 2 trimmers on your schematic?
-the pot values are conflicting, they actually match the trimmers
-tr1,2,3 = vr1,2,3 im assuming

love the sound on the video, really want to build this but can you clear up some of these questions? thanks so much.

hi bro,
the schem was an earlier version RutabagaBob worked up for me.
at that point it didn't have the trimmers.

what you hear on the demo is the circuit as it appears in the vero layout. i don't know how to do schematics in any of the programs i've tried, sorry.

the trimmers are indeed probably labeled vr1,2,3, etc instead of tr1 , 2, 3...

the full size pots are 1k for attack, and 100k for tone and volume.

first trimmer is 100k going to c of q2. i may have used 50k, but if i remember, i had to go up to get it to bias right. (it was based on the schematic by andrew carrell in this thread)
vr2 and vr3 are mislabeled on the vero, sorry...but the values are right.
there was no vr2 (the one at the bottom of the vero layout) originally, it was just a 100k/330r voltage divider. the attack control wouldn't work right, so i played with it using a 100k trimmer. 22k is just about perfect, (you could replace 100k r9 and that trimmer with a 22k resistor) but i like being able to dial it in with the 100k trimmer there by ear.

vr3 as shown on the schemo is 1k. you can probably use a resistor instead of the trimmer if you want, it's fairly subtle.

i would really appreciate it if you post your schemo when done!!

btw... i don't use r extra in my build, rutabagabob added that.

the buffer circuit is after the output of the volume pot, but before the switch.

i'll attach the vero for that; it's on a daughterboard on my build, but i included it all as one board in the vero on this thread. the buffer was one of the first things i tried to layout, so it's kinda rough, but easy enough to figure out if ya follow the components like a bunch of stompboxes. ;)

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/basic2n3904bufferrevd-1_zpsf7d6b476.gif)

sorry about the discrepancies, didn't mean to be obtuse!!

hope ya like it!

Quoteit was on the schematic i referenced, i don't know who did it originally

I believe the original version of that schematic was drawn up by the late great RDV!
sadly we lost him a few years ago. he had a site 'fatboy effects' that is still there but many of the images he had on his site now only exist in other forumites pc's... he was a good guy, you woulda liked him. he'd probably really dig that people were still building and modding from his schematics. i had also built his npn silicon tonebender and he suggested i place the schocktave circuit after it. holy massive octave down with that combo. if you happen to have an octave divider anywhere, try it!  :icon_twisted:

i got all his stuff, actually, i found reference to them and joined a site just so i could see 'em. got them on my harddrive in fact.
yah, it's a great schematic..it got me a working pedal! it just took a year or so for me to figure out how to "tune" it, is all.. ;) i mean...here's the original:



very different sounding from this one!!

then the second version:



i mean, listening to the original, and then the second try, this ain't even in the same ballpark anymore.

and the video i did was with a dead battery, for god's sake. fresh battery, it's like a big muff pi that can clean up like a fuzzface and not sound like it's buried up to it's neck in mud! ;)

the final evolution...quite a change in this thing!!



please let me know what ya think if/when ya build it. it has an "edge" that doesn't translate as well in the video..it can get pretty harsh, like jagged shards of glass mixed in. i LIKE that. but i'm a sick, sick guy... :D

yeah, that last version definately sounds sick! nice licks as well. And that tele has me gas-ing for a tele.
ot-  i just re-re-painted my homemade strat back to olympic white(sort of) after it was all sparkly with orange flipflop and red silver orange blue sparkles. sounds cool but from ten feet away it was pink/purple ???
so i needed to rerefinish! then just as the paint was drying it fell from the holding jig and got a few decent scars... :o oh well, just a head start on that relic vibe ...  ;D sorry for the ot. just needed to vent.
anyway that really does have a nice tone, warm and edgy at the same time, sounds like it will really cut through in a band situation. rolls off real nice as well.

bro, i feel your pain in an off topic way. i bought a firebird kit. beautiful. spent a week or so just sanding it so it was smoother than a baby's ass.
put a beautiful hand-rubbed, old-school sunburst on it, french polished...cabernet (a purple reddish brown ) to red mahogany sunburst. it looked like it was dipped in blood almost...it @#$%ing glowed.  i finally had the burst looking great.

i steel wooled it down. all good.

hung it, and went to touch up a couple spots. ooooops.

forgot the goddamn TACK CLOTH!!!! O NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!


yep... ended up getting steel wool filings into my beautiful sunburst i'd worked on for over a week to get just right, with probably 20 coats. ruined.

now i gotta zip-strip it down to bare wood and start over again. all because i forgot to use the dang tack cloth.

so believe me, i feel ya!!!!!! now i gotta wait for spring to fix it.
ay yi yi yi...makes my bwain hurt.

anyways, yah, the pedal...quite an evolution. in a live situation, it's the best fuzz i've used. it sounds like an un-muddy big muff with a lot of compression and high end chime, and cleans up like a good fuzz face. totally touch responsive.

i don't know what i did or how, really...i suspect a lot of it comes from the diode clipper to ground off of q2. i bet if i put a trimmer there too, i could adjust the compression of the circuit. i'm pretty sure that's what's happening with them diodes there, and why it cleans up so nice but stays so sensitive.

gonna build another one and see if i can verify the design.

ouch !!

i stuff like that i do it all the time . and somewhere back in my head , something goes off like , " slow down , you are about to do something you will regret " . i swear a few times i have caught myself , slowed down , looked and thought , but those moments " i had the tack cloth in my hand " or whatever .

i think you just cant get too comfy .

confidence should be low , at all times , lol .

that t-bird kit idea sounds cool , you used to have one , no ? i dig those . played an epi tbird four string , goth one , at the pawn shop outlet yesterday , surprisingly smaller body / less weight than i had imagined , oh and srry for ot , again .

amazing how well it cleaned up , no difference on my end . i do not own a fuzz that can do that well ...

petey, did you build one of these, and it's not cleaning up, or am i misunderstanding you?

this thing is stacked
thanks so much for sharing the results of all your hard work with us mortals
its worth watching the entire 12mins because theres at least 1 memorable quote per minute
"this thing should rip your head off"
"the volume makes it loud"

cheers

i'm a mortal too bro, so it's all good. i wouldn't be here without standing on the shoulders of the giants before me, and a curious need
to find the perfect fuzz by building every @#$%ing single one i can, and breaking it til it sounds good! ;)

glad ya likes the SPT's dude. peace. ;)

im still working on the eagle schem and PCB layout but its gonna be a couple more days. and i have to figure out how to read a vero schem/layout. but i am very excited to build this puppy. thanks jimi.

Jimi man this thing sounds sick! Love it! First the harmonic perc and now this! I cant keep up I gotta build em both. Gotta find the time. Might have to give up sleeping for a while  :icon_eek:


Always great playing man!

I'm really in need of some lead tones. I think like many of you I'm always looking for that sound, ya know what I'm talkn about the sound that makes you look like you smelled something. Haha

jimi: is VR1 trimming between the 9V rail and ground and feeding Q2? or did you miss a cut on the vero layout?

edit: nevermind. its in the notes. my bad.

i decided to slay the dragon today:
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_schem.png)
jimi: please look this over to make sure i did this right. thanks again a million

Quote from: Mustachio on December 16, 2012, 07:04:09 AM
Jimi man this thing sounds sick! Love it! First the harmonic perc and now this! I cant keep up I gotta build em both. Gotta find the time. Might have to give up sleeping for a while  :icon_eek:


Always great playing man!

I'm really in need of some lead tones. I think like many of you I'm always looking for that sound, ya know what I'm talkn about the sound that makes you look like you smelled something. Haha

thanks jim :icon_redface:
i got no chops anymore, but i pretend to be able to play a little.

you mean the famous "funkface!!!" somewhere between something stankin and an o-face...when the tumescence suddenly blooms south of the belt for a moment...

"whooo!! ah believe ah felt a liddle "wiggle" down there"...that's the sound we're always looking for. lol.
this is a neat circuit. when you guys build it, i think you'll find that "edge" i keep talking about. this thing sounds @#$%in' awesome with the guitar rolled back, if you play dynamically. pegged, it's almost a metal sound. but it's always got that fuzz thing to it. it's soooooo weird, like it wants to sputter out, but sustains anyways.

maybe between us all messing with it, we can make it to toneblaster mk 3, i'm sure there's stuff in here that could be improved on. to me, the two big points are it's dynamic ability and it's fuzzularness. wow, spell-checker didn't even highlight that one. ;)

a couple possible mod ideas... for more of a compressor, go with a 5k attack pot. it won't do much to the distortion, but will let ya dial in more sustain. the distortion will pretty much be full on, but much softer. the trimmer in parallel with r9 should probably be more like a 500k in that case i bet.

a small trimmer, maybe 1k between the diode clipper and ground may let ya dial in how much of the compression is available, it kinda seems a little like one of jack orman's circuits i've seen.

again, i'm a hack.

definitely use sockets i'd imagine. q1 can most likely be any npn ge, the directly grounded emitter should make whatever ya use have max gain.
for the other transistors, i bet a mostfet like pn2222 or so whatever may sound great in q2 or 3. i soldered mine in, cuz this was like one of my first builds...
i actually remember!
first was my wah, with help from rg back when i first got online, 1999 or so.
built my first kit, a 2 transistor silicon fuzz kit, in 05.
next was the "double fuzz kit" that was like the "suzz" fuzz rg and jamie drew up at the dawn of the interweb.
then three pcb's from "diyeffector" on ebay, an sho clone, delta fuzz, and classic npn fuzz...
my burnt toastie overdrive that i cobbled together out of shit... ;)
then i built rob's simple tremolo,
then my fuzzface, then my ugly face,
then this thing. wow. time flys.

now i'm about 60-70 builds, and got almost every one working, with only a couple total fails.
and it's all because of good folks on the internet teaching brainiacs and dolts like me how to make the sounds in our heads reality.

so...that said... a toast to all who make their own effects!!
cheers!
jimi

Quote from: kodiakklub on December 16, 2012, 05:16:02 PM
i decided to slay the dragon today:
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_schem.png)
jimi: please look this over to make sure i did this right. thanks again a million

let's see...you need to swap the locations of the 1n34a and 1n4001...the 4001 is for reverse polarity protection, with the 47u/100u  (i think i ended up with 100u there) cap it makes a simple half wave rectifier i think...

the 1n34a is a temperature stabilizer for q1. that particular diode HAS to be germanium for it to work, the idea is the leakage of the diode compensates for the leakage of the transistor at temp extremes. it was in the old "plate to plate"  website's "britface" fuzzface mod.

vr 2 needs to be in parallel with what you have labeled as r7, the 100k resistor so as you parrallel them you can decrease the resistance. you have it in parallel with the 330r resistor, labled r8 in your schematic. i did not connect the unused leg to the wiper of the trimmer. i don't think it will matter much.

i suck at this!!! lol...but yes, i think you've got it other than them couple things bro.
it looks good to me..the 1k resistor (vr 1) on your schem should be a trimmer, but 1k fixed resistor is probably fine. i have a feeling you could replace vr1 and r9 (5.6k) with a 10k trimmer, but i'm probably wrong.

but your translation of vero skills are pretty freakin' good! ;)

karl, i took the liberty to mess up your schematic. it should be right now. ;)

thanks for drawing it!! ;)

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/67944_4643291653195_1475315770_n.jpg)

UPDATED:
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_schemV2)
ill start working on the PCB layout now!
edit: i kept VR3 as a 1k resistor. trying to save board space.

cool,
but  ...you may wanna use 914's in the clipper. you'll need like, i think 6 in34's for EACH 914 to be equivalent. you may get a big output drop with in34.

it definitely will sound different, more fuzz, and less dynamics. just a heads-up.

my suggestion, would probably be to make it switchable if you plan on using them.

also, gus smalley says one of them is probably doing nothing...so...he's a lot smarter than me! read his comments in the thread please!!

rock on!

look forward to seeing a pcb!
;)

fixed again. i was just copying your values from the vero layout pic.
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_schemV3.png)

i believe i can safely say now:

i would be unfortunate if i was red/green color blind. i suppose.  :icon_biggrin:

lmao!! point noted!!

how's this, instead?

OMG could you imagine trying to do a PCB layout if you were R/G colorblind? the pads would look the same as the ground pour. a nightmare.  :icon_biggrin:

i guess i am colorblind, all pcb's look the same in my eyes!! ;)

for your building pleasure:
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_ETCH_V1.png)
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_layout_V1.png)
i cannot believe i did it this quick. new record i think. cant wait to build this out after xmas.

so where do i get an NTE103 or its equivalent?

looks great!!! thanks karl!!

you should be able to get nte103's at any electrical supplier that stocks nte stuff. google up equivalents, it's just an npn germanium. because of the way the circuit's biased, i'd imagine ANY npn ge should work fine...the emitter to ground resistor usually sets the gain, but directly grounded is just like turning it up to "10".

i think if i recall, it was an ac176 replacement, or something like that.

whats the ideal hfe for Q1? i know the nte103 is about 90....would the 120-150 range work?

wait, i think that r7/vr2 is still going btween the 330r and q3 rather between the 330r and the attack pot...
i'm drawing up a slightly altered version from kodiakklubs schem, ill post it in a few... just rearranged the placement of some things to clean it up a bit... nothing changed tho. hope thats cool...

dammit. you're right. ill fix that now-ish. thanks!

updated: thanks again quackzed
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_schemV4.png)
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_ETCH_V2.png)
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_layout_V2.png)

ok, i did a revised schematic, hope thats ok, here it is...
(http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w114/quackzed/toneblasterschem_zps029dcf0d.png)

that last one looks perfect.
nice work, guys, thank you!!!!!!!!!!

karl, please keep me posted as to your build! ;)

i used this thing again last nite live with my band at rehearsal, thru a solid state pignose 30/60 from the 70's, cuz i'm too lazy to keep schlepping heavy amps around, and i don't mind that one getting blowed up..

and discovered that this thing does even more than i thought... best description i can give is a compressor that thinks it's a treble booster (with the volume low) that's also an overdrive but thinks it's a fuzz, even when it's totally distorted.

i really diggit. hope you brave souls do, too!

will do! i got a NTE103 off ebay (we'll see what shows up) and got an AC187 from mammoth. ill socket Q1 and try them both out. again, very excited to start building this after xmas and will def report with the results. COMPRESSION FUZZZZZ!!!

kewl!

used it again last nite with yet another amp...so far i've tried it live with my hot rod princeton, my little ruby, my pignose 30/60, my fender cyber deluxe, and last nite the cybertwin. works great with all of 'em, so hopefully, it's gonna be good for ya!

i simmed the first transistor stage to try and understand what was going on with that diode to ground setup, and maybee offer up some insight with my findings... no dice... in the sim - set up as shown the signal out was mere microvolts small. signal didnt get reasonable till the threshold of the diode was around 700-800mv... so i suspect that either the transistor or the diode or both must be leaky - at least to a certain degree- for this to work right.
i may be wrong about that and it may just be falsdad sim isn't good at simming germanium transistors and diodes ( a very real possibility in my experience with it) so i figured i'd see if anyone had any insight on that point ?!?..

yeah im gonna guess even if 50 people made this pedal with the exact same parts, maybe 3 or 4 would be tested to be "identical" in outputted freq's. probably not even that many with all the GE there is in this pedal. cant simulate human error/manufacturing variances in NOS parts......yet! but based on your findings, like VR3, the difference is probably very very negligible.

Quote from: Quackzed on December 19, 2012, 04:18:13 PM
i simmed the first transistor stage to try and understand what was going on with that diode to ground setup, and maybee offer up some insight with my findings... no dice... in the sim - set up as shown the signal out was mere microvolts small. signal didnt get reasonable till the threshold of the diode was around 700-800mv... so i suspect that either the transistor or the diode or both must be leaky - at least to a certain degree- for this to work right.
i may be wrong about that and it may just be falsdad sim isn't good at simming germanium transistors and diodes ( a very real possibility in my experience with it) so i figured i'd see if anyone had any insight on that point ?!?..

well, d1 is only there TO  leak. that's supposed to help compensate for the leakage of the transistor. makes it more stable to temperature changes. not for "tone".
just stability.

i'd like to see a sim of q2 a lot more!! does the diode clipper make a diff, or not? i thought it did..

see, i missed that you indeed mentioned that as a temp stabilizer for the ge q1. interesting that. let me try q2 and see what i can get. as both diodes are silicon i'm guessing leakage is a non-issue so i should be able to see what they're doin...
btw, i'm not trying to nitpick or anything, its just a real nice sounding circuit so i wanna see whats happening here and there thats contributing to the final tone. also i'm not a seller of pedals, just a curious soul. so this is just for some mutual understanding as well as inspiriation... not that you're worried, but if you'd rather i left the black box closed, i can understand and will respect that. this is after all, your circuit. but so long as you dont mind me diggin' around i'll try and see what i can find...

no worries, gil!!
thanks for taking the time to understand it, it helps ME learn, too!!

i'm real curious to see what the diode clipper there does to the signal, if anything.

gus doesn't think one of those diodes is even doing anything, and he knows ALOT more than i ever will..so if ya run some sims, wouild love to see the result!!

and...if you guys wanna build a couple, for yourselves, to sell a COUPLE, hey, i don't mind that at all...just as long as it's not used as a commercial product by someone without permission, i'm good with it. like i said...i'm just standing on the shoulders of giants, anyways. ;)

... so, as gus said -in the sim anyway -d4 doesnt appear to be doing anything. and d5 seems to be biasing the signal along with vr1. though thats just q1 and q2, and q2 is in a fuzz arangement that has its own strange properties so it may not be fair to just look at it all alone.
one thing i did see however is where the compression is coming from. q1! as q1 begins to distort the signal it does so very asymetrically and smoothly,
only one half of the wave gets softly clipped and more and more untill finally it starts to hard clip, all this before the other half of the wave clips at all. then finally the other half of the wave hard clips... so its very soft and very asymetrical... and d5 does seem to be needed, at least i couldnt get the same bias with it replaced with a resistor and by adjusting vr1...
here import it into falstads and see for yourself... the first scope is after q1 and the second is the output after q2. the resistance slider is to adjust the volume in to sim big/small signals...
http://www.falstad.com/circuit/ (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/)
 ok. stand back, here it comes... BAM!!!

Quote$ 1 5.0E-6 0.5999443210467817 68 5.0 43
t 512 336 624 336 0 1 -6.994522920752658 0.11398097302589527 200.0
w 624 288 624 320 0
r 624 288 624 224 0 51900.0
r 416 336 416 416 0 51000.0
g 560 416 560 448 0
g 784 400 784 432 0
O 784 336 832 336 0
R 128 336 64 336 0 1 900.0 0.2 0.0 0.0 0.5
R 624 224 624 176 0 0 40.0 9.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
c 656 288 688 288 0 2.7E-8 3.868603820949441
w 784 288 752 288 0
w 784 336 784 288 0
g 416 432 416 448 0
w 656 288 624 288 0
w 688 288 704 288 0
w 720 288 752 288 0
t 224 336 288 336 0 1 -3.229837762524731 0.5618726238038014 100.0
w 288 320 288 288 0
r 288 288 288 208 0 10000.0
R 288 208 288 160 0 0 40.0 9.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
r 288 288 208 288 0 470000.0
w 224 336 208 336 0
w 208 336 208 288 0
r 288 352 288 432 0 1.0
g 288 432 288 448 0
c 288 288 352 288 0 1.0E-7 6.6889841737422815
w 416 336 416 288 0
r 208 336 208 432 0 100000.0
g 208 432 208 448 0
c 208 336 160 336 0 1.0000000000000001E-7 0.5494383296918965
d 560 384 560 416 1 0.65
w 416 288 384 288 0
r 784 400 784 336 0 100000.0
174 128 336 128 432 0 1000.0 0.5396000000000001 Resistance
g 128 432 128 448 0
w 144 384 144 336 0
w 144 336 160 336 0
w 384 288 352 288 0
w 720 288 704 288 0
w 416 432 416 416 0
d 416 336 512 336 1 0.65
w 512 336 512 288 0
w 576 416 560 416 0
w 624 352 624 384 0
w 624 416 576 416 0
w 560 384 576 384 0
w 624 384 576 384 0
o 26 2 0 34 8.183476519740355 7.991676288808941E-5 0 -1
o 6 2 0 290 10.0 9.765625E-5 1 -1

wow, that's cool!!!!! thanks bro!!

i never messed with this thing before...gotta read up on it, try and put the whole circuit in there.

i see the compression...amazing how it's working. looks like the biasing is weird from the diode maybe? i don't understand this enough. ;)

its a cool simulator for small stuff, but sadly it gets glitchy with anything big, so for the full circuit you might have better luck with something like spice or other downloadable type circuit sim software, but falstad is great for what it is, and its really easy to use after a little trial and error.
 

i really gotta get some time to do some building...it's been like, way over a month now. every time i turn around, there's some new crap to deal with.

maybe i'm just lazy.
;)

i've got a couple circuit sim programs, but can never seem to get 'em to work right. kinda gave up on 'em!

but i played with the sim you worked up this morning, and saw the assymetrical clipping AND the compression of the waveform... but i don't understand why it's doing that, as it's a pretty basic circuit for the most part, and really just a tonebender with some tweaks!!

this is just my 2 cents so take it with a grain of salt, but...
in the first stage, the base is biased alot closer to ground than to +9v due to the difference between the 470k resistance to +9v and the 100k resistance to ground. so its biased alot closer to ground than to +9v- its about 5 times further away from +9v than from ground. if there wasn't alot of gain it wouldn't really matter all that much and the wave would stay unclipped because it was still well within both rails... but because theres alot of gain due to the emitter goind straight to ground, the ground side of the wave will hit the rails way sooner and it will clip way sooner than the other half of the wave, theres the asymmetry... as for why it clips softly and doesnt hard clip right away, thats the nature of bjt's in cutoff, as they start to cutoff, or clip at the ground rail, less and less current flows and the result is that they slowly begin to clip, untill there is no current at which point they are basically off, and will hard clip.
if you were to swap those resistors around - the 470k for the 100k and vice versa, you'd see that the other side of the wave would clip first, but it wouldn't be nice rounded soft clipping, it would be pretty abrupt, because then the trnsistor is in saturation not in cutoff... and the result would be asymmetric hard clipping...  not too deep but the basic idea... i may be wrong tho.. , but thats at least what i think is happening...

i think i kinda understand that, seems like a logical explanation.
i was really expecting the compression to come more from the diodes in e of q2~

i guess i hallucinated the change there...i tried it directly grounded, with a pot, a resistor and single and multiple diodes, this seemed to work best.

now i know why the original was more of a compressor, cuz it totally really IS one, sorta.  that explains a lot, i think.

thanks gil!

I simmed a all Si transistor circuit close to what was posted.  Used a 2N4401 as the first stage you could try a med power Si transistor.  Added a simple guitar, cable and a cable, 1meg output load.  Left out the EF
EDIT R4 is 1 ohm not R1 as written in the screenshot
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=48478&g2_serialNumber=1)

Green is the input blue the output, note the green curve.
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=48481&g2_serialNumber=1)

what's an ef?
looks cool, but it's a different circuit. be neat to hear what it sounds like.

the falstadt sim was cool, cuz you can kinda "see" what it "sounds" like. ;)

this is way over my head, gus! ;)

etched the board yesterday, in addition to a modded fuzz factory, and started populating just now and noticed i dont have any 510K's. whats going to happen if i put a 470K in R11? thanks....hope everyone's christmas was good to ya.

worst case, do a 470k and 47k in series. 470 will probably be close enough tho

she's alive!!!

so i got her up and running with a genuine new NTE103 in Q1.

my setup: jaguar HH with SD humbuckers ----> toneblaster 2.5 ----> silvertone 1484 head w/ marshall half stack cab

thoughts/remarks:
1. volume knob should be pegged on 10 all the time. the pedal itself really kills overall output of original guitar signal
2. attack knob totally co-dependent on VR1 and there is a very tight sweet spot. does take some time to find it.
3. remember that i replaced VR3 with a 1k resistor
4. remember that i have a 470K resistor in place of the 510K in R11
5. instead of saying its a very compressed sound, i would say the pedal has a major gate effect like a wolly mammoth. overall the pedal is very similar to a WM, just not as aggressive.
6. it certainly has a lot of range from gated fuzz to severe LOFI

any suggestions jimi?

Quote from: kodiakklub on December 27, 2012, 12:53:01 AM
she's alive!!!

so i got her up and running with a genuine new NTE103 in Q1.

my setup: jaguar HH with SD humbuckers ----> toneblaster 2.5 ----> silvertone 1484 head w/ marshall half stack cab

thoughts/remarks:
1. volume knob should be pegged on 10 all the time. the pedal itself really kills overall output of original guitar signal

something's wrong...mine is unity gain about 10:00 or so. it should be able to easily get twice as loud as bypassed.

Quote
2. attack knob totally co-dependent on VR1 and there is a very tight sweet spot. does take some time to find it.

yah, absolutely. i probably had a wider sweet spot because of how i wired it...remember, i had a 100k resistor in parallel with input and wiper of a 100k trimmer.
for my build, combined resistance seemed best right about 22k. at that point, the attack pot seemed to work the best, and definitely also affected the compression some, too.
i'd be curious to measure what the trimmer you have is set at.

looking at the last schematic posted,  it should be vr2 that affects the attack pot. vr 1 should affect the overall voltage going to the transistors...vr1 should get you somewhere between the standard 4.5-6v on C of Q1. you're gonna probably want to set the front panel knobs all about 1/2 way up. vr1 on the schematic should let you dial up more volume. there's gonna be a compromise between the fuzz and clean. you wanna set it so your guitar sounds fairly clean  with the guitar knob on about 7 or so...it should sound almost the same at 7 on the guitar with the volume and attack knobs at 12:00 and the tone at 3:00 on the fuzz as when bypassed. try messing with vr1...there should be a fairly wide range on that trimmer to dial up or down the + voltage.
then use vr2 to dial in the range where the attack knob works best.

Quote
3. remember that i replaced VR3 with a 1k resistor

you may need to put a trimmer there too and play with it slightly. if i recall, full up made it gate to the point where it's off.

Quote
4. remember that i have a 470K resistor in place of the 510K in R11

i wouldn't imagine that making that much of a difference. you can try adding a 47k resistor in series with the 470k, i think that voltage divider helps set the gain for the buffered part. remember...10,000 monkeys here, not an ee!!

Quote
5. instead of saying its a very compressed sound, i would say the pedal has a major gate effect like a wolly mammoth. overall the pedal is very similar to a WM, just not as aggressive.

does it gate off the ends of notes? if so, you gotta give it more juice with vr1 i'd imagine. mine has a very smooth sustain and very natural decay, no gating at all.
i'm thinking you may have set it up to be more of a fuzz than i did...if you starve the transistors more, you'll get a buzzier fuzzier sound, but you'll lose the dynamics.
the thing with this is when it's set right, it's wicked dynamic...you should be able to dial in how much distortion just with your hands. if it's gating and it's not doing that, you probably need to turn that trimmer up a bit. remember, it should almost be "too" clean if played soft (dynamically) it should start to fuzz as you hit it harder.
if you can roll it up on your guitar from about half way to full blast and go from a slightly nasal clean with a lot of sustain to a sound almost like a kinda brighter big muff, you got it. i'm thinking you're close, from what you've described.

any chance of a clip as it sounds now? cuz this shouldn't be sounding like a wooly mammoth. should be closer to a fuzzface or bmp than that.

Quote
6. it certainly has a lot of range from gated fuzz to severe LOFI

i think it's the biasing. i'll try and crack mine open and get some voltages for you this afternoon. it should definitely be cleaner than you describe.

Quote
any suggestions jimi?

my gut says to play with vr1 like i said. put vr2 about 1/2 way up to start.  if vr2 is way off, you may need to stick a 100k trimmer in there to see if your particular transistors need that much adjustment.

and just for shits and giggles, try adding the other half of the diode clipper  on q2. i have a sneaking suspicion that may have something more to do with the sound of this than we thought.

we'll sort it out, i'm sure...did ya socket your transistors? try spinning q1 180 degrees maybe. sometimes them damn nte transistors are AFU.

1. i will try spinning q1 180deg.
2. at first i had an AC187 in Q1 it was screaming loud, but i only played with it for about a whole minute. ill go back and really mess with it with the 187.
3. ill socket the resistor i have in for VR3 and play with diff values.
4. i've always had the 2nd clipping diode in there.
5. i had my guitar volume pot on 10 the entire time i was messing with it.
6. i did notice at different points that when played soft, it was clean and you really had to lay on the strings hard to get any fuzz out of it at some points, so maybe its more similar to yours than we think.

ill get another chance to mess with it tomorrow night. i will report back. thanks jimi!!!!!

Quote from: kodiakklub on December 27, 2012, 03:25:05 PM
1. i will try spinning q1 180deg.

i bet the nte is a piece of shit!! i swear, alot of times the nte stuff is just rebranded crap. especially because:

Quote
2. at first i had an AC187 in Q1 it was screaming loud, but i only played with it for about a whole minute. ill go back and really mess with it with the 187.

aha!! i bet it's the damn nte. you can try spinning it as suggested, or bite the bullet and use the ac187. if it was screaming loud, that's what we're looking for there..with the directly grounded emitter, it should be at full possible gain!

Quote
3. ill socket the resistor i have in for VR3 and play with diff values.

first, try re-biasing with the 187 in q1. you may be fine. i did find it seemed to work best with the trimmer backed off just a little bit there tho. seemed to adjust the overal compression, but pretty subtle. too far up, and the circuit hits cutoff.

Quote
4. i've always had the 2nd clipping diode in there.

ok, so it's not that.

Quote
5. i had my guitar volume pot on 10 the entire time i was messing with it.

yah, you'll probably find it's quite gnarly with the guitar on 10!!! try setting it up like i suggested in a previous post...you have to compromise a little in terms of all out fuzz i think to get the most usable range out of it. generally, you wanna be able to sweep from clean to mean to scream with your volume control, or pick dynamics like in the video i did.

Quote
6. i did notice at different points that when played soft, it was clean and you really had to lay on the strings hard to get any fuzz out of it at some points, so maybe its more similar to yours than we think.

yah, sounds like you're right in the ballpark. a little tweaking, and i think you'll get it. i tend to crank the amp up a little and get my tones from the guitar...i'm looking more for that "cranked tube amp" sound than fuzz. the fuzz shouldn't really happen too much until the guitar is cranked. on your silvertone, try cranking the amp up to the point where it's beginning to break up some, that may help you dial in the fuzz better. at some point, you should definitely find the compression...you saw it in the falstadt sim you did. i think you're really close now. just get the proper tranny in q1 and i bet it will all come together.

Quote
ill get another chance to mess with it tomorrow night. i will report back. thanks jimi!!!!!

please do so, and thanks for building the circuit and verifying it for me!! we'll get it sorted out...
be well bro!

Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on December 23, 2012, 05:49:22 PM
what's an ef?
looks cool, but it's a different circuit. be neat to hear what it sounds like.

the falstadt sim was cool, cuz you can kinda "see" what it "sounds" like. ;)

this is way over my head, gus! ;)

An EF is an emitter follower. 
Look closer at the sims I posted the one is very close to what you posted.  No potentiometers in the stock download of LT spice so you make them with two resistors that total up to the value wanted. 
I made the gain control a 2K for two reasons one you can find 2k potentiometers and two for biasing. 
I picked a 33K collector one a stock value and two the note had set the trim to 20-22k  so 10K and 22K is close to 33K
I dislike TRIMS

I added a guitar cable sim and the load the effect might drive 390pf, 39pf a foot cable and 1meg input resistance.
Adding the loading is good to do it will show the change when you add an EF and drive the same load

The green line shows some of what is going on at the input OR how the circuit interacts with the guitar/cable.

I removed the diode in the emitter leg that is reversed biased.

The EF sim I posted earlier has the bias offset for the base this helps in two ways
One you move the voltage of the base and the emitter up
Two better more symmetrical output drive
There have been posts about this in the past

A little of topic
If people want to experiment or can not find a good Ge try a silicon med power transistor for the first one remove the Ge diode.  I have built treble boosts with Si med power  and people that played them have liked them.

Quote from: kodiakklub on December 17, 2012, 08:01:44 PM
updated: thanks again quackzed
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_schemV4.png)
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_ETCH_V2.png)
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_layout_V2.png)

I would setup R7, VR2 different
Try something like R7 10k,22k(what min value you like) in series with the 100K  NOTE the feedback resistor value does two things, one it helps set the closed loop gain around Q2 AND is a part of the biasing of Q2 and Q3.

I would remove D4

I would change the EF transistor Q4 to a higher hfe one 2N5089, MPSA18 etc and change the bias resistor values(in ( )) and add a cap at the R11, R12(22K), R13(47K) node to ground

I would make VR1 a 10K with a 50K trim in series.  Good trim design is to have the control at about 1/2 of its travel when set.  The 10k is not to have 0 Ohms from C to +9 with the trim at one end of is travel

Quote from: Gus on December 28, 2012, 10:39:12 AM

Quote from: kodiakklub on December 17, 2012, 08:01:44 PM
updated: thanks again quackzed
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_schemV4.png)
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_ETCH_V2.png)
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_layout_V2.png)

Quote
I would setup R7, VR2 different
Try something like R7 10k,22k(what min value you like) in series with the 100K  NOTE the feedback resistor value does two things, one it helps set the closed loop gain around Q2 AND is a part of the biasing of Q2 and Q3.

that won't fly, gus... 100k is too much, at 100k the attack control won't work, so a total load of 122k is probably overkill. it wants to see a load of around 22k optimally from my tinkering. i tried just using a resistor, and just a trimmer, it seemed to work best with the two resistors (100k and 100k trim) in parallel. 22k seems to be the sweet spot on mine, you've got about 50k before the attack just starts looking at you doing nothing. don't get me wrong, i BELIEVE you... but for whatever reason,  this worked for me. i drew up the original just as i'd laid it out. a 50k trim could be used there, but it doesn't "sound" the same. i'm wondering if it has something to do with messing with the phasing of the electron flow or something, you can hear an audible difference. maybe it's just me. i've fooled myself before!! ;)

Quote
I would remove D4

i've wondered about that, too. i'd think that the pair effectively is a short circuit, but it does at least "seem" to "sound different". when i was messing with the circuit, i tried a 1k resistor there, a trimmer, and one diode as well. the two seemed, again, to "sound" best. i'm wondering if it has something to do with the AC there, if these things work anything like a tube does. forgive me if i'm wrong, but i'd assume as far as dc is concerned, a diode clipper is effectively a short, as it's only gonna conduct both ways, right? but if the ac (audio) component has anything to do with it, maybe that's part of where the sound is coming from. no ee here, my friend, so no idea!!!!

Quote
I would change the EF transistor Q4 to a higher hfe one 2N5089, MPSA18 etc and change the bias resistor values(in ( )) and add a cap at the R11, R12(22K), R13(47K) node to ground

the higher gain i'm sure could help. all this was was an lpb1 tacked onto the end, really, set up as a simple buffer. i think it's on dano's site, verbatim, i lifted it from there. would you add the cap there just to nuke noise? or would it help stabilize the circuit some how? sorry for all the questions, but every time you post (for which i am deeply grateful) it's like being dragged from the stone age onto the bridge of the enterprise ;)

Quote
I would make VR1 a 10K with a 50K trim in series.  Good trim design is to have the control at about 1/2 of its travel when set.  The 10k is not to have 0 Ohms from C to +9 with the trim at one end of is travel

the 100k there is around the half way mark, maybe 2/3rds i think on mine. i've gotta break it out and do some voltage readings for kodiak, i wanna wait til tomorrow tho cuz i have a gig tonite and i've gotta phobia about opening stuff up and tinkering if i know i'm gonna be using something that nite, ya know?

;)

as always, thanks for the advice!! much appreciated!!

Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on December 28, 2012, 01:58:51 PM

Quote from: Gus on December 28, 2012, 10:39:12 AM

Quote from: kodiakklub on December 17, 2012, 08:01:44 PM
updated: thanks again quackzed
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_schemV4.png)
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_ETCH_V2.png)
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_layout_V2.png)

Quote
I would setup R7, VR2 different
Try something like R7 10k,22k(what min value you like) in series with the 100K  NOTE the feedback resistor value does two things, one it helps set the closed loop gain around Q2 AND is a part of the biasing of Q2 and Q3.

that won't fly, gus... 100k is too much, at 100k the attack control won't work, so a total load of 122k is probably overkill. it wants to see a load of around 22k optimally from my tinkering. i tried just using a resistor, and just a trimmer, it seemed to work best with the two resistors (100k and 100k trim) in parallel. 22k seems to be the sweet spot on mine, you've got about 50k before the attack just starts looking at you doing nothing. don't get me wrong, i BELIEVE you... but for whatever reason,  this worked for me. i drew up the original just as i'd laid it out. a 50k trim could be used there, but it doesn't "sound" the same. i'm wondering if it has something to do with messing with the phasing of the electron flow or something, you can hear an audible difference. maybe it's just me. i've fooled myself before!! ;)

               The the gain control is marked as attack in the above schematic. To clear this up for me are you calling the feedback bias resistor from Q3 emitter to Q2 base the  Attack control OR are you posting the bias is off with a 1K gain control and more than 22K as the feedback resistor?

Quote
I would remove D4

i've wondered about that, too. i'd think that the pair effectively is a short circuit, but it does at least "seem" to "sound different". when i was messing with the circuit, i tried a 1k resistor there, a trimmer, and one diode as well. the two seemed, again, to "sound" best. i'm wondering if it has something to do with the AC there, if these things work anything like a tube does. forgive me if i'm wrong, but i'd assume as far as dc is concerned, a diode clipper is effectively a short, as it's only gonna conduct both ways, right? but if the ac (audio) component has anything to do with it, maybe that's part of where the sound is coming from. no ee here, my friend, so no idea!!!!

                        When Q2 is conducting the emitter is fixed at the voltage of diode drop.  The diode voltage drop is depended on the current to an extent

Quote
I would change the EF transistor Q4 to a higher hfe one 2N5089, MPSA18 etc and change the bias resistor values(in ( )) and add a cap at the R11, R12(22K), R13(47K) node to ground

the higher gain i'm sure could help. all this was was an lpb1 tacked onto the end, really, set up as a simple buffer. i think it's on dano's site, verbatim, i lifted it from there. would you add the cap there just to nuke noise? or would it help stabilize the circuit some how? sorry for all the questions, but every time you post (for which i am deeply grateful) it's like being dragged from the stone age onto the bridge of the enterprise ;)

                        IIRC R.G. posted this many years ago at Ampage or maybe even earlier on the web search for noiseless biasing

Quote
I would make VR1 a 10K with a 50K trim in series.  Good trim design is to have the control at about 1/2 of its travel when set.  The 10k is not to have 0 Ohms from C to +9 with the trim at one end of is travel

the 100k there is around the half way mark, maybe 2/3rds i think on mine. i've gotta break it out and do some voltage readings for kodiak, i wanna wait til tomorrow tho cuz i have a gig tonite and i've gotta phobia about opening stuff up and tinkering if i know i'm gonna be using something that nite, ya know?

                                           2/3rds of 100k is  33K or 66k depending on how you wired it.
;)

as always, thanks for the advice!! much appreciated!!

                                            I looked at the first hand draw circuit and the feedback resistor is marked as 100K with the 5K gain control?

Quote from: Gus on December 28, 2012, 05:46:09 PM

Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on December 28, 2012, 01:58:51 PM

Quote from: Gus on December 28, 2012, 10:39:12 AM

Quote from: kodiakklub on December 17, 2012, 08:01:44 PM
updated: thanks again quackzed
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_schemV4.png)
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_ETCH_V2.png)
(http://kodiakklub.com/pedalpics/tonebender2_5_layout_V2.png)

Quote
I would setup R7, VR2 different
Try something like R7 10k,22k(what min value you like) in series with the 100K  NOTE the feedback resistor value does two things, one it helps set the closed loop gain around Q2 AND is a part of the biasing of Q2 and Q3.

that won't fly, gus... 100k is too much, at 100k the attack control won't work, so a total load of 122k is probably overkill. it wants to see a load of around 22k optimally from my tinkering. i tried just using a resistor, and just a trimmer, it seemed to work best with the two resistors (100k and 100k trim) in parallel. 22k seems to be the sweet spot on mine, you've got about 50k before the attack just starts looking at you doing nothing. don't get me wrong, i BELIEVE you... but for whatever reason,  this worked for me. i drew up the original just as i'd laid it out. a 50k trim could be used there, but it doesn't "sound" the same. i'm wondering if it has something to do with messing with the phasing of the electron flow or something, you can hear an audible difference. maybe it's just me. i've fooled myself before!! ;)

               The the gain control is marked as attack in the above schematic. To clear this up for me are you calling the feedback bias resistor from Q3 emitter to Q2 base the  Attack control OR are you posting the bias is off with a 1K gain control and more than 22K as the feedback resistor?

in english? ;)

the 100k resistor (with the 100k trim in parallel) and the 330r resistor? no idea, man. the attack control, AFAIK, is the 1k pot. the  100k resistor and pot seem to work best around 22k, i figured that may change with different transistors.  remember, you're dealing with a neanderthal here!! ;)  it will work with different values, but above about 33k or so, the attack control stops adding distortion and starts adding more compression/sustain...at least tonally, i don't know what it's doing electronically.

Quote
I would remove D4

i've wondered about that, too. i'd think that the pair effectively is a short circuit, but it does at least "seem" to "sound different". when i was messing with the circuit, i tried a 1k resistor there, a trimmer, and one diode as well. the two seemed, again, to "sound" best. i'm wondering if it has something to do with the AC there, if these things work anything like a tube does. forgive me if i'm wrong, but i'd assume as far as dc is concerned, a diode clipper is effectively a short, as it's only gonna conduct both ways, right? but if the ac (audio) component has anything to do with it, maybe that's part of where the sound is coming from. no ee here, my friend, so no idea!!!!

                        When Q2 is conducting the emitter is fixed at the voltage of diode drop.  The diode voltage drop is depended on the current to an extent

ok,but doesn't having the other diode there mean it conducts the other way too? i'm baaaaaaarely keeping up here, bro..

Quote
I would change the EF transistor Q4 to a higher hfe one 2N5089, MPSA18 etc and change the bias resistor values(in ( )) and add a cap at the R11, R12(22K), R13(47K) node to ground

the higher gain i'm sure could help. all this was was an lpb1 tacked onto the end, really, set up as a simple buffer. i think it's on dano's site, verbatim, i lifted it from there. would you add the cap there just to nuke noise? or would it help stabilize the circuit some how? sorry for all the questions, but every time you post (for which i am deeply grateful) it's like being dragged from the stone age onto the bridge of the enterprise ;)


IIRC R.G. posted this many years ago at Ampage or maybe even earlier on the web search for noiseless biasing


i will look that up, thanks gus!!

Quote
I would make VR1 a 10K with a 50K trim in series.  Good trim design is to have the control at about 1/2 of its travel when set.  The 10k is not to have 0 Ohms from C to +9 with the trim at one end of is travel

the 100k there is around the half way mark, maybe 2/3rds i think on mine. i've gotta break it out and do some voltage readings for kodiak, i wanna wait til tomorrow tho cuz i have a gig tonite and i've gotta phobia about opening stuff up and tinkering if i know i'm gonna be using something that nite, ya know?

                                           2/3rds of 100k is  33K or 66k depending on how you wired it.

i'll check tomorrow bro. i forget. there's a couple of sweet spots for different sounds, i like it to clean up with my guitar volume pot, and have it set where that seems to happen the most.

;)

as always, thanks for the advice!! much appreciated!!

                                            I looked at the first hand draw circuit and the feedback resistor is marked as 100K with the 5K gain control?

i'll have to look...i believe i may have changed that some because the attack pot didn't do squat. that was why first i went to IIRC a 1k pot, but the 100k resistor was way too big...that's why i hacked the 100k trimmer in there, so i could adjust it till it sounded good. i then measured the trimmer and then used a parallel resistance calculator to figure out the parallel resistance, i forget the values, but i think it was 69k-ish or something...in parallel, it can to like 2.1someodd k, i figured 22 was close enough.

Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on December 27, 2012, 03:11:11 PMthe thing with this is when it's set right, it's wicked dynamic...you should be able to dial in how much distortion just with your hands. if it's gating and it's not doing that, you probably need to turn that trimmer up a bit. remember, it should almost be "too" clean if played soft (dynamically) it should start to fuzz as you hit it harder.
if you can roll it up on your guitar from about half way to full blast and go from a slightly nasal clean with a lot of sustain to a sound almost like a kinda brighter big muff, you got it. i'm thinking you're close, from what you've described.

With a description like that, makes me want to build this thing.;)

pinkjimiphoton
Is this closer to what you have?
How do the measured voltages compare to the sim voltages at Q2 and Q3?
You are getting most of your gain from Q1 and Q3.   

Q2 gain is close to 22k divided by 10k so not much gain from that stage

(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=48520&g2_serialNumber=1)

Quote from: ch1naski on December 28, 2012, 11:50:36 PM

Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on December 27, 2012, 03:11:11 PM

the thing with this is when it's set right, it's wicked dynamic...you should be able to dial in how much distortion just with your hands. if it's gating and it's not doing that, you probably need to turn that trimmer up a bit. remember, it should almost be "too" clean if played soft (dynamically) it should start to fuzz as you hit it harder.
if you can roll it up on your guitar from about half way to full blast and go from a slightly nasal clean with a lot of sustain to a sound almost like a kinda brighter big muff, you got it. i'm thinking you're close, from what you've described.

With a description like that, makes me want to build this thing.;)

seriously...check the video.  i used this thing last nite into a fuzzface, just turned my guitar up and down. played everything from "barracuda" by heart to "love the one you're with" by csn. worked great. by itself, it's hip, before a fuzzface, even hipper!

Quote from: Gus on December 29, 2012, 08:47:25 AM
pinkjimiphoton
Is this closer to what you have?
How do the measured voltages compare to the sim voltages at Q2 and Q3?
You are getting most of your gain from Q1 and Q3.   

Q2 gain is close to 22k divided by 10k so not much gain from that stage

(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=48520&g2_serialNumber=1)

still waking up bro, need coffee...gotta unload the car, was too tired last nite, so the princetone and pedalboard are in the car still.

made an interesting discovery last nite...this thing plays REALLY well into a fuzzface!! they both clean up, which i've never gotten out of another pedal before the face before.
i use a compressor before the fuzzface so i can overdrive it and make it sound "broken" when i need it, but in this case, was like playing a nice tube amp. pretty cool.

i will go out to get the pedals out of the car at some point this afternoon, and take voltage measurements. then maybe someone much smarter than me (you!!!) can figure out just how the heck i cobbled this thing together.

it really was just andrew carroll/ricky d. vance's silicon tonebender with a couple modifications.

glad to see you simmed with a 404...i think the GE may make it different. did you see the falstaff sim karl posted?

if ya get a chance, check it out...makes some very interesting waveforms as you juice it.

not taking any credit...standing on the shoulders of giants. in my case, if it's good, it's a happy accident!! ;)

the toneblaster in action last week. i was hired to play for "the charmed ones" to cover for their ailing lead guy.
excuse the wankage. ;)

Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on January 02, 2013, 05:55:46 PM

the toneblaster in action last week. i was hired to play for "the charmed ones" to cover for their ailing lead guy.
excuse the wankage. ;)

The wankage sounded great. That pedal seems to scream nicely.

Nice to see you in action, Jimi!  Man, I've got to build one of those...and learn how to play...

thanks guys. yah, build one.

it's weird. it translates real well live, but it's quirky. i'm really digging it. i've gone from my usual overkill pedalboard to just the toneblaster>wah>boss me5. it's pretty sick.

okeedokee.

i figured since kodiakklub had problems with this thing, i'd build another one. so i spent most of the day cobbling together the veroboard i put up.

it absolutely works. i'm psyched... BUT there's a couple things to watch out for, and 2 mistakes on the vero layout...nothing major, but annoying.

first off, make sure you don't miss the cut behind c9.... i did, cuz i ran out of color ink so i did it in grayscale.

second, i (braindead) got the attack and volume controls wired backwards.

reverse the wires going to pins 1 and 3 of those two pots, and also flip the cap on the attack pot as well... if you mounted it on the pot like i did.

that's it. other than that, it works great. i did make a couple substitutions, just cuz i was a little lazy.

i made r2 47r instead of 100r.

i used a 1k and a 4.7k in series instead of the 5.6k. i did that on the original, too.

i used an 1n60 and a 1n34a for the diode clipper. it absolutely sounds better with BOTH the diodes there, i swear i hear a difference, and bet you will, too.

also used an 1n60 for the temp stabilizer on q1.

i had another nte 103a kicking around, so i built it as drawn. man. a low-gain, hissy, crackly ...frankly, shitty transistor. not reccomended. it IS what's in the original one, and that may be part of why it sounds the way it does. i had soldered it into the board, but i would guess it was maybe 30-40 hfe. if that. really low-gain ge's that leak like a sieve are probably good here. i'm gonna mess with it more tomorrow if i get a chance.

but... i have a bunch of AC176's, so i just grabbed a random one and stuffed it in q1.

fresh battery, 9.59v

so, it ended up ac176, hfe 80 (6ma leakage if i read it right)
c  4.23
b  0.08
e 0.00

2n3904,  hfe 362
c  2.00
b  0.80
e  0.21

2n5089, hfe 666 (ha!! the number of one hell of a fuzzmaker)
c  2.79
b  2.00
e  1.39

2n3904, hfe 353
c  9.57
b  3.99
e  3.56

i also added a 47p cap between b&c of q2 to help dodge some noise. it's not boxed, so it's pretty noisy.

how does it sound?

well, it's more of a fuzz than the original. it never forgets it's a fuzz, and i have a feeling into a good tube amp the dynamics will be there.
right now, i've only tested thru my ruby, using my 3 humbucker tele. it sounds great. not as clean. still dynamic. hard to tell until i play it thru a REAL
amp.

still has the huge compression and sustain. i see where karl was talking about gated. i can definitely dial that in, and still get a real natural sustain.
the three trimmers work a lot better than the ones on the original. can dial in a bunch of different shades of it. sounds like a tonebender.

the attack control will rip your head off. the tone control goes from muted and nasal to scream with a good treble boost.
it does seem to respond well to the knobs on the guitar, and it has a hint of octave up on some settings.

here's the vero:
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/538446_4758584175436_1554469435_n.jpg)

i'll update and correct the vero layout as soon as i can get a chance.
and will get a stupid pedal trick happening asap.

peace out. ;)

Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on January 06, 2013, 11:03:45 PM
okeedokee.

i figured since kodiakklub had problems with this thing, i'd build another one. so i spent most of the day cobbling together the veroboard i put up.

it absolutely works. i'm psyched... BUT there's a couple things to watch out for, and 2 mistakes on the vero layout...nothing major, but annoying.

first off, make sure you don't miss the cut behind c9.... i did, cuz i ran out of color ink so i did it in grayscale.

second, i (braindead) got the attack and volume controls wired backwards.

reverse the wires going to pins 1 and 3 of those two pots, and also flip the cap on the attack pot as well... if you mounted it on the pot like i did.

that's it. other than that, it works great. i did make a couple substitutions, just cuz i was a little lazy.

i made r2 47r instead of 100r.

i used a 1k and a 4.7k in series instead of the 5.6k. i did that on the original, too.

i used an 1n60 and a 1n34a for the diode clipper. it absolutely sounds better with BOTH the diodes there, i swear i hear a difference, and bet you will, too.

also used an 1n60 for the temp stabilizer on q1.

i had another nte 103a kicking around, so i built it as drawn. man. a low-gain, hissy, crackly ...frankly, sh*tty transistor. not reccomended. it IS what's in the original one, and that may be part of why it sounds the way it does. i had soldered it into the board, but i would guess it was maybe 30-40 hfe. if that. really low-gain ge's that leak like a sieve are probably good here. i'm gonna mess with it more tomorrow if i get a chance.

but... i have a bunch of AC176's, so i just grabbed a random one and stuffed it in q1.

fresh battery, 9.59v

so, it ended up ac176, hfe 80 (6ma leakage if i read it right)
c  4.23
b  0.08
e 0.00

2n3904,  hfe 362
c  2.00
b  0.80
e  0.21

2n5089, hfe 666 (ha!! the number of one hell of a fuzzmaker)
c  2.79
b  2.00
e  1.39

2n3904, hfe 353
c  9.57
b  3.99
e  3.56

i also added a 47p cap between b&c of q2 to help dodge some noise. it's not boxed, so it's pretty noisy.

how does it sound?

well, it's more of a fuzz than the original. it never forgets it's a fuzz, and i have a feeling into a good tube amp the dynamics will be there.
right now, i've only tested thru my ruby, using my 3 humbucker tele. it sounds great. not as clean. still dynamic. hard to tell until i play it thru a REAL
amp.

still has the huge compression and sustain. i see where karl was talking about gated. i can definitely dial that in, and still get a real natural sustain.
the three trimmers work a lot better than the ones on the original. can dial in a bunch of different shades of it. sounds like a tonebender.

the attack control will rip your head off. the tone control goes from muted and nasal to scream with a good treble boost.
it does seem to respond well to the knobs on the guitar, and it has a hint of octave up on some settings.

here's the vero:
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/538446_4758584175436_1554469435_n.jpg)

i'll update and correct the vero layout as soon as i can get a chance.
and will get a stupid pedal trick happening asap.

peace out. ;)

I have a couple of germanium sb22's and 175's. The 22's have low gain, roughly that area.... Wonder if they'd work for q1.....

worth a shot. the nte sounds cleaner, more compressorish...the ac176 sounds more like a phat-ass little cheeky fuzz.

that said...here's the corrected vero (other than the cheater cap)

(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/13822_4758941504369_699478340_n.jpg)

Just for my own clarity: the last schematic is ok, then?

jimmi- the AC187 sounds amazing as well. super hot. have only messed with it at home on a small tube amp. hope to get it to the studio later this week to really crank it. but it's loud, and amazing with the 187

other than the connections to the two pots and the cap on the attack control, yes.
with the trimmers half way up, should fire up as a nice fuzz immediately.

here's an a/b of the original toneblaster and the final product. the new one isn't boxed, so it's running thru a loop box with a master level control.

i think the tone is there, close enough to the original for the ac176 to be cool. probably doesn't matter what ge is used in q1.

karl...let me know how ya make out this weekend with the box!!

did ya get it dialed in right? i DID use the three trimmers on mine, they are way more useful on the complete circuit than the original one with the daughterboards and stuff.



i'm not really left handed, the dang video software updated and reversed everything by default. nice. ;)

hey karl,
you ever get this thing working?
i've built two of 'em now, right to the vero layout/schematic, both worked right out of the gate.

just curious!! thanks bro!

Fixing to build one of these..  8)

I've built a few of your circuits Jimi and I think you and I have a similar taste in toanz.. (lots of us probs)

I got a bunch of MP38s from like 70-100 hfe, and some 404Bs that go even higher.. any recommendations?  I saw that D4 and D5 you recommended as  1N60 and a 34A, and then the 1N60 for the temp diode on Q1, any other opinions?  I tend to socket clippers and use a on/off/on since I'm a fiend and like Blue LED clipping on most things  :icon_rolleyes:

Well I'll report back once it's going, been fooling with the flying spaghetti Monster lately.. any ideas on increasing the volume a hair? Maybe I'll go post in that thread.

As always thanks for sharing Jimi and thanks to everyone else who weighed in :)
-B

Quote from: BetterOffShred on June 22, 2019, 12:59:16 PM
Fixing to build one of these..  8)

I've built a few of your circuits Jimi and I think you and I have a similar taste in toanz.. (lots of us probs)

I got a bunch of MP38s from like 70-100 hfe, and some 404Bs that go even higher.. any recommendations?  I saw that D4 and D5 you recommended as  1N60 and a 34A, and then the 1N60 for the temp diode on Q1, any other opinions?  I tend to socket clippers and use a on/off/on since I'm a fiend and like Blue LED clipping on most things  :icon_rolleyes:

well, i prefer pink led's. seriously, they have a different forward voltage to them and they sound better.... to me, anyways. i always advise adding germanium diodes in series with the led's... that way ya still get the tone of the led's, but the decay doesn't fart out and remains smooth.

that said, socket your biasing resistors, as if memory serves back when i did this and knew literally less than nothing,  that peeps who built it didn't get a very sweet sound, but rather gated and misbiased. my original was a fluke, i think. it sounded great with another fuzz, but not so great solo... so i'd advise trying it on a breadboard. i intend to revisit it eventually for deadendfx, but so many projects ahead of it it will be a while.

Quote
Well I'll report back once it's going, been fooling with the flying spaghetti Monster lately.. any ideas on increasing the volume a hair? Maybe I'll go post in that thread.

add a small resistance to ground before the output pot to reduce the volume. if it makes it too dark, bypass the resistor with a cap to ground in parallel maybe?

Quote


As always thanks for sharing Jimi and thanks to everyone else who weighed in :)
-B

honored b, hope ya get it working in a useable manner!
i don't even own one anymore, so can't comment on it, unfortunately.
someone like it enough to buy it, so.... i guess it couldn't have been THAT bad ;)

if i remember correctly, it was based on dragonfly's si tonebender fuzz, but ge instead.

so long ago ;)