hey guys, i think it was scruffie asked if i could up some shots of this beast.
i'm trying to get it to work again for a friend. have replaced ALL the electros. one was a 22u that had had the covering removed. seemed to me the side referenced to ground was obvious, and it was the only unmarked cap on the board. i used the schematic from toppopicione's but i believe that may have a couple errors.
or it could be my eyes...that schem is hard to see.
unfortunately, i don't have a digital camera other than the shitty one in my phone, so these pics aren't ideal...so i tried to break it up into a bunch of closeups, hoping it may be able to help.
as i go thru this thing, i'll try and label the components and upload the pictures with the stuff labeled.
hopefully this can help get this cool toy documented properly, and working clones happening.
i still don't have it working as i type this..i can manually sweep the sensitivity of the filter, but that's it.
the two 220u caps i didn't have above 16v. so i used a pair of 100u's in parallel for one, and a pair of 220's in parallel for the first filter cap instead.
i may have to revisit that and make it the same as the 2 100u's in parallel instead of the presumed 440'ish i used there.
anyways. a lot , i mean a LOT of pictures. i bent the pots up so you can see what lies beneath, too. it'll be up to someone smarter than and more ambitious than me to be able to sort it out... but as this thing is dead, i hope to get help as i go to...be nice to ressurrect this beast!
again, forgive the shots..
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0024_zps1c71fa71.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0023_zps1cbd8d07.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0022_zpsf8c04ff0.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0021_zps1d28e53f.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0020_zpseb7512db.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0019_zpsf35674a7.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0017_zpsda50d999.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0016_zpsae302114.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0015_zps4d635630.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0014_zps09f2038c.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0013_zps7c76e891.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0012_zps1d787dcf.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0010_zpsd94dfb52.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0009_zpsc918ef20.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0008_zps7779decc.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0007_zps7d34a8f6.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0006_zps18c8e799.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0005_zpsac3e9b55.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0003_zpse02378fe.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0002_zpsfc2580b5.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0001_zps7d897673.jpg)
Hey Jimi,
Can you take a picture without that radish on the trace side of the board? I can't see the traces underneath it! ;D
radish?
Yeah,
That little trimpot looks like a radish! or a piece of sushi!
Wait a minute...... Is that a trimpot?
trimpot. 10k
:icon_mrgreen:
man...where to start. it won't be tonite.
i can hear the envelope/phase if i twist the envelope sensitivity knob faintly.
it passes audio, but there's a bit of distortion to it. if i beat on the guitar, of course, it kinda seems to barely work.
i just boxed it up for now, will take voltage measurements when i get a chance.
there's so many freakin' opamps, and nothing's lableled, so it's gonna be interesting to try and post voltages. :icon_eek: :icon_eek:
does anyone by chance have a pic of just the wiring from the env/sweep switch? a couple of those wires were broken off, i think i tacked 'em back on in the right spots but it's hard to tell on this thing...it has like, extra pads and holes and stuff for things that aren't there, adding to my newborn confusion. ;)
onwards and upwards...
Jimi,
Check out the PolyPhase project that Paul Nelson put together. I have it on my PC but I don't remember if I picked it up here of the other site. It might have some info that will help you.
i have the version redrawn by morrocotoppo, but it's definitely got some errors.
this one has 2 220u caps on it, the .33 cap shown on the redraw is a 33u... also, there's a 2.2u on the original, not shown in the schematic.
this may take a little bit to sort out.
thanks bro.
Quote from: armdnrdy on December 24, 2012, 10:46:56 PM
Jimi,
Check out the PolyPhase project that Paul Nelson put together. I have it on my PC but I don't remember if I picked it up here of the other site. It might have some info that will help you.
Searched for polyphase by user nelson: https://sites.google.com/site/electroconducive/polyphase
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on December 24, 2012, 11:07:41 PM
i have the version redrawn by morrocotoppo, but it's definitely got some errors.
this one has 2 220u caps on it, the .33 cap shown on the redraw is a 33u... also, there's a 2.2u on the original, not shown in the schematic.
this may take a little bit to sort out.
thanks bro.
Cheers for the photo bro! As you've discovered, the schematics don't match the unit, i'll get to tracing soon.
cool, scruffie, will take more if need be, and i'm gonna try and label the specific parts if i can figure it out.
what i'm saying is, the schematic from paul's project, and the one i have in my hands is not the same. some values are way off in the original,
probably because the original schematic (surprise surprise) had errors and is such a bitch to read.
from a .33 cap in the redrawn schematic to 33u is a HUGE difference, and one of the caps labeled 22u on the schematic should be 2.2u...again, a huge difference.
i'm assuming those are some of the things that have messed people's attempts up at building these before.
i'll do what i can to help while i got this thing here, and hopefully can get it running for my friend.
any idea what the big silver "cap" looking thing is in the middle left of the board? looks like an electrolytic, but they took the insulation off so you can't tell the polarity or value, so i'm imagining that value is probably crucial. i assumed (silly me) it was another 22u cap, but i may be wrong. (likely)
Try taking a measurement with your DMM in capacitance mode. Depending on what it's doing in the circuit you might be able to get a stable reading. It's worth a try!
will do. sometime over the next couple days. ;)
What schematics are you working from?
This is what i've been going from as being the most correct -
(https://sites.google.com/site/electroconducive/EHXPolyphase-Factorylessclear.jpg)
Apart from the circuit section that produces the B> connection which I think doesn't actually exist from what I traced and an educated guess.
The only cap values I questioned were if there was 2 x 15uFs or 10uFs near the rate pot but it may be the schematic has a few other errors.
The rest of the cap values seemed reasonable but perhaps some are listed wrong, it was mainly resistor values I wanted to check out, I think Paul used a few values in the mixing stage from an incorrect schematic. Will have to see!
I know paul added some caps for extra filtering and used a mixture of values from different schematics.
I have no idea what the vintage thermistor in this looked like but maybe that big can thing is it?
i've got this, and paul nelson's schem. neither matches what's in here. i'm gonna have to try and draw a trace out of this thing, and label everything.
like i said, what paul has labeled as .33u is actually 33u, if that silver thing isn't 22u, it's the thermistor...if it's not a thermistor, it's a second 22u cap.
there's a 2.2u cap as well that isn't on any of the schematics, or if it is, probably misread as 22.
i've never seen a thermistor that looks like an electrolytic cap tho. there's some inconsistencies.
gimme a few days and let me see what i can come up with. i think all the schems are wrong, and since i have one here, least i can do is try and trace it all out.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on December 26, 2012, 06:57:01 PM
i've got this, and paul nelson's schem. neither matches what's in here. i'm gonna have to try and draw a trace out of this thing, and label everything.
like i said, what paul has labeled as .33u is actually 33u, if that silver thing isn't 22u, it's the thermistor...if it's not a thermistor, it's a second 22u cap.
there's a 2.2u cap as well that isn't on any of the schematics, or if it is, probably misread as 22.
i've never seen a thermistor that looks like an electrolytic cap tho. there's some inconsistencies.
gimme a few days and let me see what i can come up with. i think all the schems are wrong, and since i have one here, least i can do is try and trace it all out.
Are you sure about that .33uF cap thing, there is one shown on the schematic there and unless it's Non-Polar, it wont be 33uF.
There is a 33uF shown on the power supply section though which Paul has altered so it is no longer required that would be found in your unit.
And there' a 2.2uF Electrolytic on the schematic from the A section connected to the Direct Out. By my count there's 13 electros on that board and 13 in the schem.
looking at it, there's absolutely a 33u electro.
also the 2.2u.
there's 15 electros on the board that i replaced total.
220u @25
220u @35
25u @16
unmarked silver cap, same physical dimensions as the 25u @16
33u @16
.047u @35
2.2u @50
1u @50 x 5
10u @16v x 3
so the schematics have gotta be wrong. this thing WAS working up until recently, and i don't believe it has had any modification (recent being a "couple years")
my multimeter only goes up to 20u, so the unmarked "stripped" cap looking thing is a moot point. i can't measure it, tho i did check it, and it appears to be a cap. it charges up with a resistance test and slowly drops.
but any way ya look at it, that's 15 electros.
i'm gonna try and find some clear plastic or something i can use to trace the pcb with when i get a chance, so we'll know what's what from there.
but absolutely, the schematics do NOT match, themselves, or the unit.
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0014_zps09f2038c.jpg)
the silver thing in the middle of this pic is the thing i'm wondering about.
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121224_0009_zpsc918ef20.jpg)
in this pic, there's a pair of 10u's in the upper right corner obscured by the pot.
going from left to right, i'll try to describe where/what they are...
let me go pull the circuit board out, i've got it pseudo buttoned up til i get a chance to mess with it.\
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121226_0001_zps323af3ba.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121226_0002_zps5dc91e8d.png)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121226_0003_zps29f644cf.png)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121226_0004_zps157b2c94.png)
there's pics of all the electros, and where they are, and orientation.
the big question mark is the silver unmarked thing. all these are after i replaced the electros, and all were replaced with the values i removed.
i DID make a mistake i found...one of the 1u's i repopultard with should have been 10u.
i'll have to find it. but definitely a discrepancy. and looking by the lm324, neither schematic seems to quite match what's there.
hope this helps scruffie!
Hmm, I can account for all those caps on the schematic, I musta missed two on my count.
The 25uFs (assuming your big can thing is one which I think it is after tracing now and the cap count) were obviously as they had some around and no 22uFs, the 10uFs answer my question about if they should be 10 or 15.
The 0.047... you sure that's not 0.47? 0.047 seems awfully small for an electro and 0.47 is what's on the schem.
That's it, the rest matches what I can see on the schematic! It's EHX so there's always gunna be some discrepency, the only one i'd have concern about is the 0.47 to 0.047 as that's a ten fold change.
I count 5 transistors (6 with the power one) as well so that puts to rest that weird B> section being there.
My next question are the mixing resistors...
From one of those 1uFs there should be 2 x 3.6k resistors connected according to the schematic where as Paul used the values from an alternate schematic at 27k each which I think is why some people experienced weaker phasing compared to original units.
Now... seems 820k is the value coming off the Env Mod Pot middle lug which is listed as 620k on some schems (seem to recall people saying reducing this helped with the envelope sensitivity though...) and the resistor between pins 1 & 6 of the 324 is 100k not 39k like the above schematic which makes the 3/26/79 schematic I have the most correct one, not the one I posted above.
Under the rate pot though... connected to one of the lugs, the 2 x 10uFs and pin 3 of the 3140, that resistor... supposedly on the schematic an 18k, looks like 180k?
And up by the Env Mod, next to the 4558 (second one along) looks like 180k too? Along with the resistor lying sideways above the Vactrol at the closest end of the board below an opamp... or are they 18ks?
This is now what I think is the most correct schematic for this...
http://www.tasteundtechnik.de/bilder/polyphaseschem.jpg
See the greenie cap next to that big metal can too? What's the resistor value next to that, that should be a mixing resistor if i've traced it right (which I might not have).
Oh and this is the cap you put a 1uF in place of a 10uF, the one next to the 220uF and empty pads-
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/121226_0002_zps5dc91e8d.png)
just checked again, my mistake... .47, not .047 bro.
5 smaller transistors, 1 large one.
big one is marked 2n6290
small ones are 2n5088 next to the 4013bpc
2 2n5087's
1 2n3904
scruffie,
i will get to this asap...can't until probably tomorrow, unfortunately. but i'll check all the values.
in the pic, do you mean the 1u to the left of the 220, or the one above? the "empty pads" are actually where the 10k trimmer is mounted.
must have been a friday afternoon job, there's a big hole in the pcb to adjust the trimmer with. ;)
i wonder if that 1u mistake vs the 10u that should be there is why it's not phasing?
what i'll try to do is tell you left to right what all the components are, and what row...there's from top to bottom basically 6 rows of components.
1-4 is mounted on a vertical axis,
row 5 is horizontal,
row 6 is again vertical.
hopefully, that will help sort the components out for you to finally crack this circuit.
thanks for the patience, bro...stay tuned!!
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on December 27, 2012, 03:19:34 PM
just checked again, my mistake... .47, not .047 bro.
5 smaller transistors, 1 large one.
big one is marked 2n6290
small ones are 2n5088 next to the 4013bpc
2 2n5087's
1 2n3904
Do you mean 1 x 2N5087?
If so that checks out, if not, we have an extra 2N5087 for some reason.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on December 27, 2012, 03:28:15 PM
scruffie,
i will get to this asap...can't until probably tomorrow, unfortunately. but i'll check all the values.
in the pic, do you mean the 1u to the left of the 220, or the one above? the "empty pads" are actually where the 10k trimmer is mounted.
must have been a friday afternoon job, there's a big hole in the pcb to adjust the trimmer with. ;)
i wonder if that 1u mistake vs the 10u that should be there is why it's not phasing?
what i'll try to do is tell you left to right what all the components are, and what row...there's from top to bottom basically 6 rows of components.
1-4 is mounted on a vertical axis,
row 5 is horizontal,
row 6 is again vertical.
hopefully, that will help sort the components out for you to finally crack this circuit.
thanks for the patience, bro...stay tuned!!
To the left of the 220uF, to the right of the Vactrol first row above the horizontal.
Well funnily enough the trimmer's been on the bottom of every trace side shot i've seen of this, even a model that had seemingly had a slight PCB revision, guess they didn't like adjusting it through the board.
I wouldn't have thought that's why it's not phasing, while I don't entirely understand the LFO/Envelope section of this, that caps more to do with the envelope side of things.
It could be lots of things making it not work the CA3140 or CD4013 might have blown, both static sensitive and play a roll down in that section, the vactrols might have aged and died or in EHX fashion of the time, a bad solder joint somewhere (although that is a nicer looking job than normal) but that's random guessing.
Have to get some voltages going.
That would be brilliant if you could, I have a scan side shot of the track and component side so I can fill in all the values in PSP and trace it through with ease that way.
With all the resistor and cap values confirmed what was going on in the various schematics should be a lot clearer and make it clear what might be worth playing with because the discrepencies could be down to the fact the schematics all seem to be revisions and given i've seen a revised PCB layout and the first schematic I have is dated 78 and final schematic dates 1980 (your unit may just fit the 79 schematic I have as it has an earlier PCB revision) if you follow what i'm getting at.
May I ask if this unit has blue paint facia or not?
Thanks man! Should have another one cracked and a vintage unit repaired soon eh ;)
Quote from: Scruffie on December 28, 2012, 07:02:53 AM
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on December 27, 2012, 03:19:34 PM
just checked again, my mistake... .47, not .047 bro.
5 smaller transistors, 1 large one.
big one is marked 2n6290
small ones are 2n5088 next to the 4013bpc
2 2n5087's
1 2n3904
Do you mean 1 x 2N5087?
If so that checks out, if not, we have an extra 2N5087 for some reason.
yes, my bad....typo for a change instead of stupidity ;)
Quote
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on December 27, 2012, 03:28:15 PM
scruffie,
i will get to this asap...can't until probably tomorrow, unfortunately. but i'll check all the values.
in the pic, do you mean the 1u to the left of the 220, or the one above? the "empty pads" are actually where the 10k trimmer is mounted.
must have been a friday afternoon job, there's a big hole in the pcb to adjust the trimmer with. ;)
i wonder if that 1u mistake vs the 10u that should be there is why it's not phasing?
what i'll try to do is tell you left to right what all the components are, and what row...there's from top to bottom basically 6 rows of components.
1-4 is mounted on a vertical axis,
row 5 is horizontal,
row 6 is again vertical.
hopefully, that will help sort the components out for you to finally crack this circuit.
thanks for the patience, bro...stay tuned!!
To the left of the 220uF, to the right of the Vactrol first row above the horizontal.
Well funnily enough the trimmer's been on the bottom of every trace side shot i've seen of this, even a model that had seemingly had a slight PCB revision, guess they didn't like adjusting it through the board.
I wouldn't have thought that's why it's not phasing, while I don't entirely understand the LFO/Envelope section of this, that caps more to do with the envelope side of things.
It could be lots of things making it not work the CA3140 or CD4013 might have blown, both static sensitive and play a roll down in that section, the vactrols might have aged and died or in EHX fashion of the time, a bad solder joint somewhere (although that is a nicer looking job than normal) but that's random guessing.
Have to get some voltages going.
That would be brilliant if you could, I have a scan side shot of the track and component side so I can fill in all the values in PSP and trace it through with ease that way.
With all the resistor and cap values confirmed what was going on in the various schematics should be a lot clearer and make it clear what might be worth playing with because the discrepencies could be down to the fact the schematics all seem to be revisions and given i've seen a revised PCB layout and the first schematic I have is dated 78 and final schematic dates 1980 (your unit may just fit the 79 schematic I have as it has an earlier PCB revision) if you follow what i'm getting at.
May I ask if this unit has blue paint facia or not?
Thanks man! Should have another one cracked and a vintage unit repaired soon eh ;)
my pleasure.
i SHOULD have the whole day tomorrow to look at this thing...i gotta couple gigs that fell in my lap i need to prepare for (hey, i don't need to know the steeeeenkin' songs, i'm a LEAD guitarist, if i screw up, i'll scowl at the bassist!! ;) )
yes, the faceplate is blue and black, and he said he bought it new in the late 70's.
thanks for the tip with the cap, i'll fix that, too asap.
i can kinda get the envelope to work, and phasing if i sweep the sensitivity knob, but it's almost non existant.
i will check my junk drawer, i think i have the proper chips kicking around.
thanks scruffie!
Guys, i´m quietly following your work. Great! I e-mailed Scruffie some files that might be useful, so Scruffie, check your mail! Eventually, and hopefully with some help from me, we´ll all have a working Polyphase!
Regarding the thermistor, couldn´t we replace it with a trimpot? Even accesible through a hole in the box to make adjustments without opening it... ´cause a thermistor is a resistor that changes value with temperature, right? So...
Quote from: Morocotopo on December 29, 2012, 11:16:49 AM
Guys, i´m quietly following your work. Great! I e-mailed Scruffie some files that might be useful, so Scruffie, check your mail! Eventually, and hopefully with some help from me, we´ll all have a working Polyphase!
Regarding the thermistor, couldn´t we replace it with a trimpot? Even accesible through a hole in the box to make adjustments without opening it... ´cause a thermistor is a resistor that changes value with temperature, right? So...
Cheers Morocotopo, very helpful!
Well i'll be... only a quick glace but it appears the mixing resistors are actually 22k & 5k6 from the 1uF Negtive.
And yes, a trim would be suitable, I did find an alternative thermistor that could be used but I really dunno how necessary it is anyway unless you take your pedal through extreme temperature changes.
I'll work through later, with Jimis component notes, should be a breeze.
Edit:
This Thermistor is probably okay if the resistor value is tweaked http://www.taydaelectronics.com/thermistors/100k-ohm-ntc-thermistor-5mm.html
At 0c it's around 500k where as the original was 350k
At 25c it's around 100k same as the original
And at 50c it's around 50k where as the original was 33k
Not perfect but I bet it'd do if one required a trimmer.
hi brothers,
i'm just getting my shit together now, gigged last nite and hippy is burnt toast.
gonna get on this this afternoon, at least start to.
remember, my eyes are dodgy...so i'm gonna list the stripes on the resistors, sometimes i have a problem with certain bands.
but i believe we can get this thing going now. it'll be nice to fix my friends box, but even BETTER, be able to build our own!! ;)
also..as far as i can tell, there's no thermistor on this thing anywhere...unless it doesn't look like the normal blue ones that look like a disc cap.
so...it's probably not even necessary, i'm guessing!!
gimme a little bit to get going...hippy's always slow after a gig. ;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on December 29, 2012, 02:54:18 PM
hi brothers,
i'm just getting my sh*t together now, gigged last nite and hippy is burnt toast.
gonna get on this this afternoon, at least start to.
remember, my eyes are dodgy...so i'm gonna list the stripes on the resistors, sometimes i have a problem with certain bands.
but i believe we can get this thing going now. it'll be nice to fix my friends box, but even BETTER, be able to build our own!! ;)
also..as far as i can tell, there's no thermistor on this thing anywhere...unless it doesn't look like the normal blue ones that look like a disc cap.
so...it's probably not even necessary, i'm guessing!!
gimme a little bit to get going...hippy's always slow after a gig. ;)
Hope the gig went well!
Looking closely... I think those resistors I questioned being 18k or 180k are the 18k on the schematic, it's just a weird colour that doesn't quite look orange or yellow in any of the 3 model photos I have.
There is a thermistor from what I traced, it's near the trimmer and 3 trannies, it looks like some weird little black diode... when you get this working you could try warming or cooling it somehow and see what happens, might explain if it really is needed/why it is... it's to do with keeping that area biased at 6.7V for whatever reason it's unstable.
I've glanced a lot more with guess work and no tracing while I wait for your checks but I think other than those mixing resistors and what I recall of tracing this from really poor photos in the past, the 79 schematic is accurate... but we will see what other suprises this might have.
Take your time! I'm busy untill the new year before I can really get in to this at which point i'll label up a redrawn schematic and a PCB trace so checking should be easy.
cool, thanks for the patience. this damn flu has doubled back on me hardcore today, i didn't do squat but sleep mostly.
but...that said, i DO have it open on my bench. and i need to get it off there so i can do a couple paying gigs. ;)
the gig was a gas...steep learning curve, i don't know a lot of "chick rock" and i got contracted to play lead for a band fronted by twin sister witches.
so...a lot of thinking on my feet, and bullshitting like crazy to get thru the nite..
luckily, i guess their normal lead player must not be too hot, cuz they left out all the more difficult changes...lol... like, crazy on you by heart, reduced to the least common denominator. ;)
like...none of the bridges, just verse/chorus kinda stuff.
i got to get my yayas out tho some, used my talk box on sweet emotion (which i never ever played with a band before) and rocky mountain way...
and during the second solo of comfortably numb i had people throwing dollar bills at me like i was a stripper. ;)
good times.
now...the thermistor... ok, it's on there... but i thought it was a ferite! cuz that's what it looks like. very weird!!
Jimi, hope you get well.
I took advantage of some free time yesterday and today, and went ahead with the tracing and schem.
Here´s the cleaned schem just as the one Scruffie posted. Parts numbered.
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/EHPolyphaseredrawREV02_zps616b582e.png)
Here´s the current trace, based on that schem for numbering:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/TRACE_zps30450353.jpg)
I´m really close to finishing the tracing. The file posted is just for show, I´m doing it with Photoshop so I have the different elements (parts, labels, tracks) in different layers. Then comes the checking of values, then a prototype, then... making noise!
A few notes: I´ve found discrepancies in the mode switch, the one I based my tracing on (I believe it´s the one Mark Hammer had and took pics for me), uses, as far as I can tell, a single pole switch, not a double pole as on most schems. Those of you who have an actual unit, could you take pics of the switch and the wiring of that? None of the pics I have show that clearly.
The power section doesn´t have the two Q´s at the end and associated parts. The rest of the actual pedal so far is just as the schem, not taking into account values, that´s the last thing I´ll check.
Well, maybe tomorrow I can squeeze some time from the new year´s eve dinner preparations and finish the tracing.
And now, a teaser. Look what i found on my computer!
http://soundcloud.com/truemostro/polyphase-18v-pwr-supply-test
That´s a test of the one I made years ago with the Nelson layout. Never got the envelope working, but the phasing, as you can hear, was great.
EDIT: the schem looks crap, here´s the direct link, let´s see if that allows a reasonable quality download:
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/EHPolyphaseredrawREV02_zps616b582e.png
EDIT 2: no, that didn´t work. OK, let´s see now:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/th_EH-Polyphase-redraw-REV-0.jpg) (http://s68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/?action=view¤t=EH-Polyphase-redraw-REV-0.jpg)
Quote from: Morocotopo on December 30, 2012, 07:59:49 PM
Jimi, hope you get well.
I took advantage of some free time yesterday and today, and went ahead with the tracing and schem.
Here´s the cleaned schem just as the one Scruffie posted. Parts numbered.
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/EHPolyphaseredrawREV02_zps616b582e.png)
Here´s the current trace, based on that schem for numbering:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/TRACE_zps30450353.jpg)
I´m really close to finishing the tracing. The file posted is just for show, I´m doing it with Photoshop so I have the different elements (parts, labels, tracks) in different layers. Then comes the checking of values, then a prototype, then... making noise!
A few notes: I´ve found discrepancies in the mode switch, the one I based my tracing on (I believe it´s the one Mark Hammer had and took pics for me), uses, as far as I can tell, a single pole switch, not a double pole as on most schems. Those of you who have an actual unit, could you take pics of the switch and the wiring of that? None of the pics I have show that clearly.
The power section doesn´t have the two Q´s at the end and associated parts. The rest of the actual pedal so far is just as the schem, not taking into account values, that´s the last thing I´ll check.
Well, maybe tomorrow I can squeeze some time from the new year´s eve dinner preparations and finish the tracing.
And now, a teaser. Look what i found on my computer!
http://soundcloud.com/truemostro/polyphase-18v-pwr-supply-test
That´s a test of the one I made years ago with the Nelson layout. Never got the envelope working, but the phasing, as you can hear, was great.
EDIT: the schem looks crap, here´s the direct link, let´s see if that allows a reasonable quality download:
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/EHPolyphaseredrawREV02_zps616b582e.png
EDIT 2: no, that didn´t work. OK, let´s see now:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/th_EH-Polyphase-redraw-REV-0.jpg) (http://s68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/?action=view¤t=EH-Polyphase-redraw-REV-0.jpg)
ariel,
you are f'n godlyke. seriously. now it'll make my job easier. i'll start filling in values tomorrow. your layout with the numbering will make life MUCH easier...and especially to see what's what on the schematic. parts are all over the place on the board, i think the EH boys were doing some good lsd when they laid this board out!!
i went thru and re-soldered the whole damn board tonite. also replaced the 4013, gonna put another 1458 in there, too, see if it fires.
the wires were broken off the board going to the switch on the board end, so i MAY have it connected wrong...i was getting a little bit of phasing/envelope before, none now. i can't tell from my crappy pics where the wires were supposed to go. that may be why i can't get it to fire.
i will look at the switch, i think it's a dpdt, using both sides, as well.
thanks for the well wishes. with luck, i will beat this thing. it's been kicking my ass for a couple weeks now.
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/switchdeet2_zps46d6de35.png)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/polyphaseswitchdetail1_zps42f94c2d.png)
i reflowed every joint on the board, put the correct value caps in, and replaced the cd4013b. i think the ca3140e may be hosed tho.
i'll start reading the resistors tomorrow. hopefully these crummy pix of the switch and wiring will help in the interim.
tried printing the layout posted, dang printer ran out of ink. nice.
so that's pretty useless for me for now, til i can get more ink. :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on December 30, 2012, 10:20:35 PM
i reflowed every joint on the board, put the correct value caps in, and replaced the cd4013b. i think the ca3140e may be hosed tho.
i'll start reading the resistors tomorrow. hopefully these crummy pix of the switch and wiring will help in the interim.
tried printing the layout posted, dang printer ran out of ink. nice.
so that's pretty useless for me for now, til i can get more ink. :icon_mrgreen:
No time to reply to everything posted here properly (although nice job Morocotopo!) but while the CA3140 is a MOSFET opamp (I assume chosen for good reason) if you don't have one on hand a standard single opamp (741?) might work to test it at least, worth a shot.
Oh and to note that switch conforms to the schematic entirely.
i hope the switch does, cuz i wired it to the schematic... no way to tell if it was right, but i compared it to the pics i took before the wires broke, so it should be good.
i think it's working...should i be seeing modulation on the lm324? it's modulating up and down on a couple of the pins there.
but there's something funky. some of the stuff on morroccotoppo's layout is still off a little.
we'll get it sorted out.
it appears to me, that there's a lot of resistors on the board i have that don't match up with any of the schematics.
bear with me, and i'll get it...
thanks for the tip on the 741...i don't have any of them at the moment i don't think, but from what i'd researched they aren't swappable.
onwards and upwards..... ;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on December 31, 2012, 12:18:07 AM
i hope the switch does, cuz i wired it to the schematic... no way to tell if it was right, but i compared it to the pics i took before the wires broke, so it should be good.
i think it's working...should i be seeing modulation on the lm324? it's modulating up and down on a couple of the pins there.
but there's something funky. some of the stuff on morroccotoppo's layout is still off a little.
we'll get it sorted out.
it appears to me, that there's a lot of resistors on the board i have that don't match up with any of the schematics.
bear with me, and i'll get it...
thanks for the tip on the 741...i don't have any of them at the moment i don't think, but from what i'd researched they aren't swappable.
onwards and upwards..... ;)
Quote the Datasheet 'Directly replaces industry type 741 in most applications' while it may not work right (The CA3140 does have certain properties over it) it might work enough. I'd try TL071, NE5534 etc too if you have one, no harm trying.
Yeah you should see modulation on the 324.
There are a few values I can tell off from the schematic, but not many, I have about 5-7 resistors in question (cap values I can't answer for) 3 definitley don't match. Otherwise mainly fine.
I haven't checked morocotopos layout yet, i'll provide one when time provides.
Jimi, thanks for the pics.
Well, I got kind of obsessed with this, so I finished the tracing.
I worked from this pics, provided by Mark Hammer, filling in the parts below the pots with the other available pics:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/00-polyphase3.jpg)
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/00-polyphase2.jpg)
The files:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/00-POLYPHASE-TRACE-LAYOUT_PART-NUMBERS.jpg)
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/00-POLYPHASE-TRACE-PCB.jpg)
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/00-POLYPHASE-TRACE-PCB_PARTS.jpg)
The schem:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/th_00-EHPolyphaseredrawREV03a.jpg) (http://s68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/?action=view¤t=00-EHPolyphaseredrawREV03a.jpg)
This schem is with a single pole mode switch, wich I believe Mark´s version uses. I seem to recall seeing some original schems with a SPDT, but who knows. Here´s the schem with a DPDT:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/th_00-EHPolyphaseredrawREV03b.jpg) (http://s68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/?action=view¤t=00-EHPolyphaseredrawREV03b.jpg)
Well, there´s no ovbious discrepancies between schems and actual units, as far as I can see. You might want to recheck my work, the more eyes the better.
Now I´ll start to check parts values with all the pics, I think, judging by what you guys posted, that in that part of the work I´ll find some discrepancies.
Notice that with the PCB tracing we almost have the PCB done... ;)
Anyway, once breadboarded and confirmed to work, I´ll probably design (or try to...) a smaller PCB.
Signing off for the day. Have a happy new year!!!
that's absolutely a different model from what i have bro.
mine has a double pole double throw switch, and it hooks up on one side to the envelope sensitivity knob and the rate knob.
interesting. gimme a little bit, i gotta dig my cars out of the 8 inches of snow or so they're still buried in, and get an amp done this afternoon for someone to be able to use hopefully tonite.
then i'll start reading values. i'm gonna try and take pics and label each part...probably be a lot of pictures.
happy new years to all!!
Jimi, seems there were a few versions of the thing. But the changes are not that drastic anyway, at least the schem, not speaking about values. Hope the second schem is what your unit is.
How you gettin' on there Jimi? Unit up and running yet?
Morocotopo, as I mentioned, I think from tracing (and your pictures confirm I got the right resistors, thanks for that! Makes it much easier to follow) the mixing resistors are actually 22k, not 3k6 and the 15k pull down being 5k6 which would be a discrepancy, that's the only one I could be near-sure of that might not just be the band colours not showing up great on camera.
Also R35 on your overlay, should be 43k, looks like Red, Orange, Orange, Yellow? A Yellow could be mistaken for gold making it 23k but a Red Tollerance band?
hi scruffie,
i've been sidetracked for a while on other stuff... a bud's amp blew, and had to rebuild the whole thing. eek.
and a couple fuzzes, and gigs, and life.
gotta gig tonite, got it on my bench tho. i can't get it working. that one weird cap on there i wonder if that may be the problem?
i dunno, will get to it soon, sorry bro!
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on January 29, 2013, 05:46:36 PM
hi scruffie,
i've been sidetracked for a while on other stuff... a bud's amp blew, and had to rebuild the whole thing. eek.
and a couple fuzzes, and gigs, and life.
gotta gig tonite, got it on my bench tho. i can't get it working. that one weird cap on there i wonder if that may be the problem?
i dunno, will get to it soon, sorry bro!
No worries bud! I've been busy my self, in no rush was just wondering.
I really wouldn't just focus on random parts cause they look strange to solve the issue :icon_lol: it's a massive circuit, could be lots of things.
well, just wondering if i got the polarity there wrong, if that may explain why i don't get any effect at all anymore.
i really wanna get to it tho, cuz i think having a proper schem will make my life a LOT easier, this is way above my paygrade, i'm just really beginning to understand very little, ya know?
;)
Quote from: Scruffie on January 29, 2013, 04:42:50 PM
How you gettin' on there Jimi? Unit up and running yet?
Morocotopo, as I mentioned, I think from tracing (and your pictures confirm I got the right resistors, thanks for that! Makes it much easier to follow) the mixing resistors are actually 22k, not 3k6 and the 15k pull down being 5k6 which would be a discrepancy, that's the only one I could be near-sure of that might not just be the band colours not showing up great on camera.
Also R35 on your overlay, should be 43k, looks like Red, Orange, Orange, Yellow? A Yellow could be mistaken for gold making it 23k but a Red Tollerance band?
Hi Scruffie.
Haven´t got around to continue work on this one, struggling with a Dipthonizer currently (Jimi and his videos are to blame for that!). But my main concern up to now was getting the correct schem in terms of connections. Those differences are easily tested on breadboard or on a PCB. As soon as I finish some other stuff this goes on the breadboard. Only problem is, one of those things is an AC30 clone, including the cabinet work!! That will take some time...
My latest schem posted here has R35 as 43K, the other R´s are different as you note. Or do you want me to confirm those values for you with the pics?
Quote from: Morocotopo on January 31, 2013, 04:10:17 PM
Quote from: Scruffie on January 29, 2013, 04:42:50 PM
How you gettin' on there Jimi? Unit up and running yet?
Morocotopo, as I mentioned, I think from tracing (and your pictures confirm I got the right resistors, thanks for that! Makes it much easier to follow) the mixing resistors are actually 22k, not 3k6 and the 15k pull down being 5k6 which would be a discrepancy, that's the only one I could be near-sure of that might not just be the band colours not showing up great on camera.
Also R35 on your overlay, should be 43k, looks like Red, Orange, Orange, Yellow? A Yellow could be mistaken for gold making it 23k but a Red Tollerance band?
Hi Scruffie.
Haven´t got around to continue work on this one, struggling with a Dipthonizer currently (Jimi and his videos are to blame for that!). But my main concern up to now was getting the correct schem in terms of connections. Those differences are easily tested on breadboard or on a PCB. As soon as I finish some other stuff this goes on the breadboard. Only problem is, one of those things is an AC30 clone, including the cabinet work!! That will take some time...
My latest schem posted here has R35 as 43K, the other R´s are different as you note. Or do you want me to confirm those values for you with the pics?
Wow! Sounds like you're gunna be busy, i've also got quite a few projects on the go so i'll be away from this for a little bit too but I have plenty of plans for it down the line.
Ah, i've not been working on schematic connections being correct now i'm happy with what the overall schematic looks like, i'm trying to verify actual unit values compared to the schematics so I know what to socket on the PCB to test and to be sure it's as close to an original unit as possible for suitable LDR & Alternate Vactrol testing.
Speaking of, Turns out Red is 2% Tollerance (shoulda just looked that up but it seemed so strange) so that is 43k so only those 3 mixing resistors are not as on any of the schematics so far.
A little preview to get you drooling...
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/Polyphase-breadboard-2_zpsc4dbf3ca.jpg)
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/Polyphase-breadboard-1_zps33558861.jpg)
http://soundcloud.com/truemostro/polyphase-breadboard-first (http://soundcloud.com/truemostro/polyphase-breadboard-first)
Damn, how the hell do you get the Soundcloud player to show???? I HATE Flash codes!
SUH-WEEEEEEEET!
First time looking at this thread. Cannot help in any way at all.
But I suggest we all get together and pay Jimi some photography lessons.
1st "How to use the MACRO setting!"
Sorry, I'll go away now ;D
LOL... there IS no macro setting on this POS phone... the pics it takes are huge, but by the time they get "txted" to my computer, they BLOW.
:icon_mrgreen:
A little more detail.
I replaced all those stupid non standard values for the nearest commonly available one. My take on that is that EH used whatever they had/could buy cheap that worked. No sense in sweating over those R´s values, this is not a precision circuit. I made the Rev 0.3a schem that I posted earlier. Other changes: the mixing R´s are 22K.The transistors are BC549/BC559 in place of 2N5088/2N5087. No R57 or thermistor. D6 is a 1N4007. Powered by an external LM317 power supply, so all the power supply part of the schem is not there. Power consumption is from 45 to 55 mA when the optos are lit more of the time (rate pot at max). I didn´t even adjust the trimmer! Seems to be unitiy gain as is. C 18 is just a standard green cap, no precision part there. R73 is not there, no sense in parallelling a 1M with a 15K.
More testing and an updated schem later.
Of course now I (we) have to think about how to power the thing. I was thinking an LT1054 voltage doubler followed by a 7815 regulator, I hate 18V pedals, forces me to add another power supply to the pedalboard. Yes, I know that nowadays many power supplies have 18V outs, but mine does not, so! Anyway, I´ll test the thing with lower voltages, maybe we can get it to work with 9V, although I doubt it.
Well, I´m testing the thing and I found something that has to be resolved. In sweep mode, there´s ticking from the LFO, that is, the one made from the CD4013/CA4130 and associated circuitry. Strangely enough, the other LFO made with the LM1458 is totally silent...
The ticking is not super loud but it´s there. First thing I´ll try is decoupling power to all the IC´s. The original schem doesn´t have ANY decoupling, even with two LFO´s onboard... If any of you have an original, could you test it for ticking? Specially on sweep mode.
Of course the thing is on breadboard, so the ground scheme is less than optimal, and flying leads everywhere. The one thing I observed on the original PCB pics is that the grounding layout is star-type grounding.
More testing to follow.
OK, more investigation.
The original board has ground "branches" connected to a central point, those are:
- U6, U7, Q3, Q4, and associated parts. That is to say, the sweep LFO.
- U2, U3, U4, U5. The phase stages.
- C22, C21, C24, trimpot, R72, U9. The other LFO an some parts of the envelope detection circuit, BUT not the env opamps themselves.
- All the rest
So, clearly the LFO´s grounds are separated from the audio grounds. The big question is, would that type of ground layout be enough to solve the ticking problems? Hmmm. It´s curious that the original schem doesn´t have ANY power decoupling, except for U9 that has a resistive divider in the power, but I don´t know if that is decoupling or simple a voltage, er, "reducer".
So, I have to gather courage and modify the grounding in my breadboard. That will be complicated, since it´s quite a cramped situation there.
Any opinions?
Nicely done work Morocotopo :)
Proper grounding and neat wiring is gunna help things yeah, especially keeping those grounds seperate.
Little bit of decoupling wouldn't hurt though if it can be managed.
A little more advance in this:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/Morocotuco/Polyphase-PCB_zps02481160.jpg) (http://s68.photobucket.com/user/Morocotuco/media/Polyphase-PCB_zps02481160.jpg.html)
Added decoupling to the schem and designed the PCB, as you can see. Now i have to drill and start loading the parts! It´s getting closer. I have precious little time to do this, so it´s going slowly. But surely. This will fit in a 1790 box, with two footswitches: one for on/off, the other for env/sweep mode, that´s why the PCB shape.
nekro zombie bump!!!!
hey guys, you ever get this thing done?
i figured out finally, all these years later, that the "weird cap" i had wasn't a cap, it was the thermistor.
i can't even see any of the crap from photobucket anymore, any chance one of you guys may have any of them gutshots i posted before?
basically, i need to figure out where the thermistor WAS so i can replace it. in my youthful-er ingnorance i think i put an electro in there, but can't remember where.
it passes signal, zero phasing. greg at black cat said replace the vactrols, so i have them, but i just wanna try and button up any other issues it might have.
ariel, did you end up putting this on your site?
scruffie, if you can hip me to the approx location of the varistor, i'd be indebted.
the glaucoma thing is making it really hard to tell color bands on things, i have to rely on my meter or the marking on the little bags now.
any info would really help a lot. you can email it to me thru the forum i think, or phatjbp at g(*****)mail
i just dug this out, its been sitting in parts for years, and i really wanna get it going again.
then i gotta finish the maestro rhythm n sound g 1 thats been sitting open on my bench for the last 4 years ;)
It should work without the thermistor in it as it's used as a parallel resistor, my theory on its purpose is to keep the bias steady as the transformer heats the inside of the enclosure.
Anyway, I could never find an exact match for that part and the original is long out of production but a Tayda 100k thermistor should probably do fine.
I wouldn't jump the gun on replacing the vactrols (especially all 3 of them) there's plenty else that could be wrong that would cause it not to phase, you need to post voltages up.
Edit: As to the location of the thermistor, if the layout is the same as the one I have, it should be next to a trio of transistors under the Env. Sense pot.
thanks scruffie!
still trying to find all the gut shots.. goddamn botophucket screwed the whole internet.
i know i can leave it out, the problem is i had thought it was a cap all those years ago and replaced it with one, now i can't remember where it is ;) before i did that, i could get some phasing happening messing with the knobs, so i wanna get it outta there.
i will look on mine and see if that's the right place. i seem to remember it being clustered in the middle somewhere.
at the shop, when a vibe fails, its usually the vactrols from what i've been told. the one BC vibe i did repair work on, the vactrols had failed.
i will try and post voltages, i gotta take a bunch of readings and stuff... all these years later i'm way behind the 8 ball ;)
i am gonna TRY and dissapear to my dungeon for the day, and will try and get some voltages happening. its a little confusing after so long.
I e-mailed you some shots of it :)
I have to disagree with your shop, while vactrols can and do fail, they're not the first suspect, especially when the LFO uses two static sensitive parts and as you said you got some phasing before when messing with the knobs, that makes it seem a lot less likely.
thanks scruffie,
i found the pics on my phone, and located where the varistor was. yeahhhh!!!
gonna take it out. i suspect replacing it with a cap messed up everything.
gonna have to buy a new set of pots for it, the ones in there are fairly wasted at this point.
i will up a link to an imgur album with all the gut shots in a second.
thanks for the help bro!!! ;)
https://imgur.com/gallery/KHjn0 (https://imgur.com/gallery/KHjn0)
here's all my original shite gut shots botophucket screwed
if the link doesn't work, i'll up the pics individually
Awesome :) I did e-mail the photos to the correct address though didn't I?
How bad are the pots? Those D-Shafts are impossible to find these days so i'd buy them off you if they're still usable and you're getting rid of them anyway, always handy for repairs.
Pictures are working fine and it looks to be the same layout as the shots I have which is handy.
I'd take voltages of the 4013, 3140 and the transistors first... I seem to recall you saying your env/sweep toggle had only 3 wires too, it's possible it was rewired wrong as it should have 6 connections and that'd definitely stop it working.
i got the pics scruff, thanks mate.
ok. now we're getting somewhere. the "thing" i thought was a thermistor MUST be a cap.
here's a pic of the thing, no idea what it was, tho now if its a cap at least i can test it.
its just a plain silver can, with no markings, and sits right by the three vactrols
(https://i.imgur.com/q2YFiIB.jpg)
the pots are snapped off right where they bend. right now i've got 'em tack soldered together. if i change 'em, they're yours.
gonna go down and poke around. luckily i kept all the original parts, so now that i have a decent cap/component tester, i'll figure out that part hopefully and get this thing beginning to go again.
appreciate the help bro! ;)
That's an electro alright, it's just missing its 'wrapper' 22uF I think i'm correct in saying.
I think I can actually see the original thermistor in there.
soon as i get some grub in me.... damn, where's my sausage on a fork???
i'll go down and solve this mystery... or at least a little piece of it.
The schematic you posted (and the other I have seen) both have a vactrol. I'm pretty sure I noticed one inside mine....
Quote from: idy on September 16, 2017, 03:50:49 PM
The schematic you posted (and the other I have seen) both have a vactrol. I'm pretty sure I noticed one inside mine....
That's those 3 black cans with 3 wires coming out of them.
JP51J1 wasn't it?
Quote from: StephenGiles on September 16, 2017, 04:17:33 PM
JP51J1 wasn't it?
That's the one, I swore I had the datasheet but I can't find it right now but i'm 99% certain it was 100k at 25c.
oh man, this is a LOT of data to type. i took voltages on everything, i was kinda surprised how much easier it was
to find my way around this circuit than years ago when i gave up. ;) i was like, shaking in mortal trepidation back then.. "i can't possibly follow this shit!!! ;) "
the "mystery cap" reads 33uF on my meter. + side goes towards the vactrols
anyways. here goes. some voltages look fine to me, some seem weird as hell. i don't get anything seeming to sweep or modulate which is making me suspect a bad 4013... i think. anyways...
regulator
(left to right)
1 16.07
2 20.0
3 15.4
u1, 4558 (input stage)
1 7.69
2 7.69
3 0
4 0
5 7.53
6 7.73
7 .01
8 .01
phaser stages, all 4558
u2
1 1.32
2 3.45
3 2.26
4 0
5 2.25
6 2.27
7 3.20
8 15.48
u3
1 1.35
2 2.26
3 2.23
4 0
5 0
6 2.24
7 3.14
8 15.48
u4
1 3.26
2 3.58
3 2.19
4 0
5 2.18
6 2.89
7 2.55
8 15.49
u5
1 1.86
2 2.20
3 2.18
4 0
5 2.18
6 2.19
7 2.85
8 15.49
1458
1 12.7
2 6.33
3 6.78
4 0
5 6.33
6 12.58
7 1.91
8 13.39
lm324
1 6.32
2 6.46
3 6.33
4 15.48
5 6.32
6 6.45
7 6.48
8 6.34
9 6.39
10 6.34
11 0
12 6.33
13 6.34
14 6.64
3140
1 .03
2 6.33
3 6.33
4 0
5 .03
6 6.33
7 15.49
8 7.68
4013be
1 15.5
2 0
3 0
4 .55
5 0
6 15.33
7 0
8 0
9 0
10 0
11 0
12 0
13 15.5
14 15.5
q1 , 5088
c .55
b 1.17
e .53
q2 5087
c 11.26
b 11.17
e 0
q3 5088
c 15.36
b 0
e 0
q4 3904
c 11.20
b .74
e 0
q5 5088
c 11.20
b 1.04
e .70
all three vactrols are reading 2volts on the ldr sides that are sticking up. i forgot to check the led side.
these settings with all knobs on full and switch "on"
too much info. i see some stuff that looks way wrong to me, but i don't really know much beyond fuzzboxes really ;)
thanks for the help !!
Right... well first things first, before attempting to fix the LFO (if it indeed needs fixing) all your phase stage ICs are mis-biased, the reference voltage for them is provided by U1.
You have 0V on pin 7 & 8 of U1, if that's correct rather than a mis-reading then i'd say U1 is dead, it should have ~15V on pin 8 and ~7.5V on pin 7.
The problem could also be the 22uF cap that feeds from a 100k resistor from pin 7 of U1.
thanks scruff,
i will check and confirm today and post back.
its possible my meter leads didn't make a great connection, some of the other pins i had to kinda "wipe" to get connections.
i will start there tho.... be back asap.
yeah, i just had a bad connection. pin 8 is 15.5, pin 7 is almost 8 volts.
its passing audio thru it. dicking around looking for bad solder (hah, 70's eh pedal, bad solder lmao) and found a point where i could hear an oscillation, and it changes via the pot so i assume the lfo is ok.
could it be over voltage? the regulator should have 0 volts on pin 2, correct? i'm reading 20. the output side reads 15.5-ish, the other side is around 16. to me this seems kinda off.
while holding each of the chips to short 'em with my skin (hey it works sometimes to see if stuff is working) and then touching the leads to the vactrols, every single one swept a little bit... just while i was shorting it.
so i'm thinking it may indeed be the vactrols after all. i'm gonna proceed gingerly and solder some new ones in and see if she will fire.
also replaced the 10k bias trimmer cuz it just... seemed wonky.
i will check back for thoughts and report my findings asap.
thanks again scruffie!
The regulator confused me for a second but it's a transistor based regulator, not a 7815 type so the base isn't grounded, you're getting 15.5V on the output so that's fine.
Okay so the voltages on U1 are okay, are all the phase stage ones still the same though? They should all have about ~7.5V on pins 1,2,3,5,6 & 7. At the last readings the voltages were way off. Did you test that 33uF can with no label to make sure it was good? As that's part of the bias chain for the phase opamps and vactrols it's pretty important.
You can test if the LFO is sweeping by putting an LED in parallel with one of the vactrol LEDs. I'd also test the vactrols with the continuity meter for internal shorts before replacing any of them.
Quote from: Scruffie on September 17, 2017, 05:12:00 PM
The regulator confused me for a second but it's a transistor based regulator, not a 7815 type so the base isn't grounded, you're getting 15.5V on the output so that's fine.
Okay so the voltages on U1 are okay, are all the phase stage ones still the same though? They should all have about ~7.5V on pins 1,2,3,5,6 & 7. At the last readings the voltages were way off. Did you test that 33uF can with no label to make sure it was good? As that's part of the bias chain for the phase opamps and vactrols it's pretty important.
You can test if the LFO is sweeping by putting an LED in parallel with one of the vactrol LEDs. I'd also test the vactrols with the continuity meter for internal shorts before replacing any of them.
gonna go down and check the voltages again... so everything on the phaser stages should be about the same? definitely not whats happening
i did not replace the 33uf cap. it is good, but it doesn't show a polarity... maybe its unpolarized and thats why it had no wrapper?
i will stick that in and see if it comes back to life, right now its a 22uf in there i think.
i'll also try and bypass the vactrols with an led and report back shortly.
thanks bro !!!
ok!!
i replaced that 33u cap, now the voltages are looking much better.
for the sake of brevity, i'll just post the changes
phaser stages now as expected i think
across u2 u3 u4 u5
1 7.77 7.74 7.8 7.72
2 7.9 7.8 7.82 7.73
3 7.69 7.65 7.66 7.63
4 0 0 0 0
5 7.65 7.65 7.65 7.77
6 7.72 7.73 7.77 7.72
7 7.72 7.73 7.76 7.73
8 15.38 * * *
minimal changes on a couple of the q's
q2
c from 11.26 to 11.17
b 11.17 11.07
e 0
q3
c from 15.36 to 15.31
b 0
e 0
q4
c from 11.20 to 11.12
b from .74 to 1.70
e 0
q5
c from 11.20 to 11.12
b 1.04 to 2.11
e .70 to 1.69
all other voltages stayed the same
tried bypassing the led's on the vactrols, no luck. i did get about a 1.3 voltage drop from 15.30 something as i went across making me suspect the leds are working.
ldr side all read about 2.10
also noticed i'd subbed a couple paralleled 100u's for the two 220's. replaced both with 220u@25vdc. on fireup i heard ONE partial sweep. i think.
so somethings still off, but it looks a lot closer. should the 1458 be seeing 15v on pin 8 too? reading about 13.39
<sigh> and of course the 33u? well i had replaced it with a 22u years ago. AND i got it in backwards. <slaps head> all fixed now. put the original cap back in.
so... still stumped!! ;)
Excellent, that's looking much better :)
No, the 1458 has a voltage divider going to its power pin so it's slightly lower supply so 13V is all good there.
So it's not working in either envelope or LFO mode and the Envelope/LFO slide is definitely wired up correctly?
You can forget about the 4558, 1458 and 324 for the moment, the main focus is on the sweep mode, the 4013 and transistors for now.
There's definitely a problem with whichever transistor Q3 is, they should all have a voltage on their base.
Looks like there's something up with the 2N5087 too, it has 0 on its emitter but that should have power on it.
It'd be easier if I knew how you were designating them regarding the schematic.
Edit: Also, what happens to the transistor voltages without the 4013 in? Or the much lazier version, if you have a spare 4013 stick it in, see if it works and if not, see what happens to the voltages.
i will try another 4013, i believe i have a couple kicking around. something weird is going on, for sure, but we'll get it.
i will try another play with it in a little bit and see if it will fire with the new chip.
i am using the designations in ariel's revised drawing that used to be posted here before botophucket screwed the pooch for the whole net.
q1 is a 5088
q2 and q3 are 5087 aand 5088 pair
q4 and q5 are 3904 and 5088 pair if it helps any. i've gotta do a couple things today before i can revisit.
i am NOT sure the switch is wired correctly in fact. i will investigate that too.
also will check the circuitry around q3. wondering if i messed up and put a cap in backwards there too someplace. hey, where i'm concerned, ANYthing is possible! ;)
you rock pete. thanks so much for everything brother!
ok, so i spent some time unsoldering and measuring resistors and caps. everything is within 10% of what its supposed to be.
i have been using this:
(https://i.imgur.com/OxmS9F0.png)
and the old hand drawn schematic.
i DID replace the vactrols with no effect of course. it was the only other thing connected to q2 and q3 that was left to check, which leads me to the conclusion that either the slide switch dealio is way @#$%ed up, or either the 5087 or 5088 its tied to are dead. i don't really see where the hell a b voltage will come from coming off e of q2. that should be 0v i would think, all thats there is the connection to q3 b and the voltage divider of r44 and r45.
q2 i'm reading only 1/10th of a volt drop between c and b, do you think that pnp is bad? i mean, to my limited understanding its gotta be either that or the 5088 that are dead. there's really nothing else there!! or am i perhaps missing something?
stumped, scruff!!!
q1 looks really funky to me, too... i should be getting about 15v to c i would imagine, its only got a 100k resistor between it, pin 4 of the 4013 (which i replaced with a fresh one, 3140 too) and i'm reading .55 v there.
man, this thing is as @#$%ed-up as a soup sandwich. i guess the next thing to do is start replacing q's?
Test Q3's base and emitter with a continuity tester to confirm it has an internal short and if it does, replace it and see if the voltages clear up.
will do so now, be right back
checked it with a continuity tester, go one way, no go the other. took it and the 5087 both out and tested both with my meter and tester, and both checked out fine.
also traced and checked the switch wiring to the schematic, its on par with what it should be. getting a little messy cuz that solid core crap wire EH used breaks every time ya look at it.
made an "led tester" with a green led and a 10k resistor with a roach clip to ground. felt around the circuit to see if i could find modulation. i get it across the speed pot, and i think it was pin 3 of the 3140 light swells in and out, and on pin 5 it pulses on and off and i can change it with the rate pot, so i guess that means the oscillator is working. thats a good thing.
so the lfo works, and it passes audio.
also tried the led across the 3 vactrols. i can get it to light, but there is no modulation happening.
looking at the voltages i'm lost at this point. it seems to me q1 c should be wAYYYYyy higher than .55... shouldn't it be more like 15v there and pin 4 of the 4013?
shit, the only thing left i think is that 100k resistor feeding pin 4 and c of q1. i'll check it tomorrow, its 12:30 am here.
stumped but determined!! this thing WILL live again!!!!!
;)
had a slight mishap today as i was connecting an amp to the pedal, gotta arc, cooked the amp completely. the pedal is still working. but i had to replace a few things... 2 of the phase shift opamps appear to have died, the final u5 too. i took 'em all out and put in sockets. checked the voltages, all good. put new 4558's in.
also replaced a couple of the electros i found suspect.
i got signal making it thru the pedal, but i lose it right from the output of u1. something weird.
replaced the 5087 and 5088 its tied to. no diff with voltages.
but now i found by inadvertanty shorting b and c of the 5088 tied to the 3904 together, it sweeps... sounds like a two position wah. so i guess the filter is working. its passing signal. it seems to be messing with the signal some.. can hear it's "different".
i know the osc is working, as i can use an led to see it flash it.
i am at a loss as to what the hell else i can do. i have verified that the switching and offboard wiring is right.
there's really not much more that can go wrong!!
i will try replacing the 4013 and 3140 tomorrow again. will also remove the 1458 and add a socket and swap that out too i guess.
it seems to lose it right at the env sens pot. perhaps i gotta swap that out? in for a dollar...
this one really has me stumped. wtf. shoulda stuck to fuzzes ;)
If you have a sweep on pin 6 of the CA3140 then you know the LFO is working and you must have just gotten some bad readings from the transistors.
And if it's sweeping there but the vactrols aren't and especially as you say shorting the 5088/3904 pair makes it sweep then it stands to reason the problem is probably those two transistors, they're driving the LEDs so...
I can't see any reason why you need to replace any of the stuff you've mentioned, the 4013/3140 form the LFO which you say is functioning and the 1458 is the other LFO that sweeps the envelope, when in sweep mode it's out of circuit.
You wont hear signal on the inverting input of an opamp so that might explain your U1 issue depending on where you're probing.
One other thing, while you've checked it's all wired up right, have you checked the sweep/envelope switch itself is actually working?
i went back and looked at the crappy phone pics i had, so i could reconnect the wires as they were originally. not surprisingly, i had two reversed. so all that works. i was only gonna take out the last couple chips so i could socket them. i'll leave it.
i was trying to use my scope to trace a sine wave thru ... very very limited experience with it.. yesterday was the first time i fired one up in years. ;) i had signal on the = and- inputs, but expected to see it on pin 1, which connects to the next stage and to the feedback pot.
i DID have to sub in a 3906 for the 5087, i'll try replacing the other two transistors and see if she'll fire.
sorry man, this is waaaay above my league. ;) i appreciate the guidance and help, sorry to be so frustratingly dumb ;)
i will check the switch too.
dumber question, do you think it may be one of the pots?
can most definitely hear its on now, its like a %^&*ed wah almost.
thanks scruffie, you rock bro ;)
ALRIGHTY!!!
WE HAVE ACHIEVED PHASE SHIFTING!!
i think the switch may be wired wrong after all. it works great on the phase shifter side, KILLER thick barberpoley stuff with a nice edge to it... but on the envelope side, when it powers up, it quacks once then stops sweeping.
it MAY be operator error cuz i'm looking at it upside down and backwards and can't see the knobs,
but i think the envelope sensitivity isn't doing squat.
the phaser is good enough i don't really care at this point ;)
but love to make it right.
any more ideas, pete?
what i did was change out all the q's except q1. the 5088/3904 pair was most definitely the problem.
i did sub a 3906 for the 5087. worked fine.
i don't stock many pnp's, my specialty is npn germanium ;)
before the last power up, i heeded what you said about static and replaced the 4013 and 4136 with brand-spankin new ones.
hit the power.. one quack. then %^&*ed wah. i was like.... fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuudge.... then i hit the switch and got glorious phasing.
so ... ya think that side of the switch may just be backwards? maybe the wires broke and he connected them as he thought was right and i followed suit years later?
would really welcome your thoughts, and man, thank you so much for all the help so far!! its close to in the bag, i may even box it up and rock it tonite!! ;)
if any diystompboxer was ever more or less deserving, this tradition i pass to you, my brother in arms! ;)
the covetedous of coveted awards, to you, the sausage on the fork, and a foot long, to boot ;)
(https://i.imgur.com/IZmMiLt.png)
THANKS SCRUFFIE!!
its now back together and boxed, working great.
i had the envelope sensitivity knob too high, which was preventing it from working right.
once i dialed in the trimmer and turned down the envelope...
holy shit.
this is kinda like the sounds i hear in my head but never knew existed. haven't even added fuzz yet. ;)
the envelope triggered modulation thing is way cool.
one more time, hats off to scruff. if ya ever get a chance to build one of these, i highly reccomend it.
very psychedelic and cool sound. i can't wait to try it in stereo some day.
anyways... again thanks!!
peace!
pink out
Congratulations man, glad you got it rolling again :)
Yup, i've got my own and it is a pretty special pedal, nice to know another is out there in the wild now.
Any time bud.
Oh and I hope that sausage on a fork is vegetarian :D
hahaha, you rock bro
here ya go, one vegetarian sausage on a fork ;)
(http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/4b14d02e740844129b93a103a80bc11e/vegetarian-sausage-on-a-fork-bh8h0k.jpg)