Looking for a good source for known good companders with a good price point. NE570 or SA571
Thoughts??
My local supplier has NE570 for $3.95 Can. each. $6.07 at Mouser, Digikey at $6.12. Utsource, from whom I`ve dealt with in the past, lists an average price around $2.50, but the shipping time is longer.
If $3.95 works for you, let me know, I`ll can do a milk run, and ship it to you. I always end up buying little nick-nacks every time I go there anyway. It`ll save you the minimum purchase factor as well..
Wow.. didnt realize that Companders were getting up there in price.
LAst time I remember ordering them, you could get them for under $2 each :icon_eek:
Coolaudio makes the V571. Their site says they'll sell you 100 pieces at 90 cents per.
Small Bear will sell you one for $3.50
Coolaudio's minimum order is $2,000. Yes, I have stock, and I have not had any complaints of poor quality on these, unlike the delay chips.
I have used the Cool Audio 571s in vintage delays comparing or replacing the vintage 570/571s and I can hear no appreciable difference or increase in distortion etc, if anything I would say they're possibly a little quieter.
Hey guys, just wondering what classifies a compander as a good compandor? Are their fakes / poor quality compandors out there? Do they sound different? Distortion? :icon_eek:
Quote from: chromesphere on January 16, 2014, 06:04:28 PM
Hey guys, just wondering what classifies a compander as a good compandor?
I think in this context the word
good = inexpensive. :icon_wink:
There are about as many compander chips as there are BBds. This stands in contrast to something like op-amps, of which there is an unending array.
You've got your 570, your 571, your 572, and your 575. They can be found in the NE or the SA or V variety, depending on who made them. And that's pretty much it. So, asking for "good" means asking for "available".
Although 570 is hypothetically a little better than 571 in some contexts, most folks here report little, if any, audible difference. 575 is for low voltage applications, and 572 has a few more tricks up its sleeve, but requires a more complicated circuit so few people use it.
It is possibel there is some obscure compander chip that can only be gotten in former Soviet countries, or something like that, but these days it's pretty much 570/71 or nothing.
Thanks for the explanation Mark! The thread suggested there was something to be concerned of with the compandor (like bbds, fakes, or sound quality for example) which concerned me but not anymore. Cheers!
Paul
I still don't understand this fascination people have with "fakes", as if someone would go to the trouble of producing a counterfeit item that is normally only produced along the scale of 10,000 at a time and sells for 10 cents a pop.
I can see where there is a bad or substandard batch of a given chip, that somehow ends up being split up around the world, such that this distributor has 60 of them, and that one has 140, etc.. I can see that a batch gets mislabelled, and somewhere along the line someone loses track of what that batch actually is underneath. I can imagine a lot of situations where a given chip with a given number is either not really, or a bad version of a commercial product that was supposed to be better or properly labelled or whatever, and the vendor is not going to go to the trouble of testing them for a 5 cent markup on what they paid. BUt "fake", in the sense of "fake" $20 bills, is something I just don't see anyone intentionally doing.
Is it possible someone knows they have mislabelled chips, and sells them anyway? Maybe, but they sure won'tbe doing it for long.
I don't know Mark, I was referring mainly to the mn3005. Do you think these were mislabelled unintentionally by the manufacturer and not relabelled by unscrupulous people looking for $?
Even the pro's get caught sometimes;
https://www.sparkfun.com/news/350
Quote from: armdnrdy on January 16, 2014, 06:24:47 PM
I think in this context the word good = inexpensive. :icon_wink:
Actually, by GOOD I really meant GOOD. As in working and not fake. I have heard a few rumblings about overseas purchased companders that have not worked and were obvious fakes. Heck, if they will fake a TO-92 (J201s, etc.) then why not companders.
I dont mind paying a bit more for known good products however, it has been a while since I have built anything that needs one and the last I remember, you could pick one up for upwards of $2. Now they are $3.50-$5.00 :icon_eek:
Like I say, there are any number of ways that a product can end up not being what you thought it was going to be or the level of quality you were expecting.
"Fake" implies a certain level of intentionality, that I honestly can't see anyone engaging in unless there is a huge profit to be made off a limited number of transactions, or transactions where the victims are unable to communicate with each other. Can someone on the production line neglect to include certain steps and simply doesn't tell their manager in order to avoid punishment? Sure. Can a producer churn out stuff without bothering to engage in the needed quality control? Sure. Can someone buy a lot of "seconds" from someone else who is perhaps unaware they are seconds (because of staff turnover)? Sure.
Would anyone go into the business of buying all the highly-specialized machinery required to deliberately produce counterfeits of something that maybe sells for peanuts (even in large quantities), is easily detectable as not working properly, and readily communicated about amongst other commercial clients? I really have my doubts.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on January 17, 2014, 09:50:27 AM
Like I say, there are any number of ways that a product can end up not being what you thought it was going to be or the level of quality you were expecting.
"Fake" implies a certain level of intentionality, that I honestly can't see anyone engaging in unless there is a huge profit to be made off a limited number of transactions, or transactions where the victims are unable to communicate with each other. Can someone on the production line neglect to include certain steps and simply doesn't tell their manager in order to avoid punishment? Sure. Can a producer churn out stuff without bothering to engage in the needed quality control? Sure. Can someone buy a lot of "seconds" from someone else who is perhaps unaware they are seconds (because of staff turnover)? Sure.
Would anyone go into the business of buying all the highly-specialized machinery required to deliberately produce counterfeits of something that maybe sells for peanuts (even in large quantities), is easily detectable as not working properly, and readily communicated about amongst other commercial clients? I really have my doubts.
Mark...
I see where you stand on this however, I have one simple rebuttal answer:
Ebay :-\
My own rebuttal being forums. Exactly how long could a person continue to deliberately sell 20 or 30 "fake" chips to buyers who may well have found out about the existence of those chips via the very means that permits them to quickly convey to others that the chips stink? The window of opportunity is small.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on January 17, 2014, 11:23:02 AM
My own rebuttal being forums. Exactly how long could a person continue to deliberately sell 20 or 30 "fake" chips to buyers who may well have found out about the existence of those chips via the very means that permits them to quickly convey to others that the chips stink? The window of opportunity is small.
I would say about as long as it takes to set up a new ebay account. :-\
Also, its no secret that some of the "overseas" sellers on there sell from multiple accounts and user names. If it doesn't sell under one account... simply move the product to a different name.
The moment that the word is out on them... they milk it until they cannot do any more reasonable (or unreasonable depending on how you look at it) business. Then, they close up shop so to speak and just open up another account under a different name.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on January 17, 2014, 11:23:02 AM
My own rebuttal being forums. Exactly how long could a person continue to deliberately sell 20 or 30 "fake" chips to buyers who may well have found out about the existence of those chips via the very means that permits them to quickly convey to others that the chips stink? The window of opportunity is small.
I have to strongly disagree on this one mark which I wouldn't usually with you.
The fakes aren't made exactly, they're just re-stamped products in the same package, sometimes to a higher quality, sometimes that stamp will come off with alcohol.
The fakes can be anything from products with a different spec that still functions, I have had some MN3009s that were clearly MN3007 and Smallbear got MN3005s that were 3008s and many people find the J-FETs available now to have specs no where near what they should be, suggesting an available part is being used instead, but the part still worked at the end of it.
On Ebay these sellers stay open for long periods, from people buying and not testing the part straight away, from people not knowing it's the chip that's broken, not their pedal, from people that don't use the DIY forums and are replacing a part they think for whatever reason is broken, usually because it's the most expensive part, then realizing that wasn't the issue (even though it could be) or from it working as I mentioned above, but not correctly.
There's more to it than that but I think this topic has already been covered and to the guys doing it, it's obviously worth it as they continue to do so.
Good points Scruffie!
Also, the "take a chance" attitude that a lot of DIYers have is slowly becoming a financial concern. Take for instance the MN3005
You used to be able to find some suspicious sellers offering them at $15 a pop and throwing $30 towards them on a chance that they are good was somewhat reasonable.
Now, you are looking to shell out $65-80 on 2 of them for a chance! :icon_eek:
The fact that the buyer is responsible for return shipping also hides the total numbers of people that have been taken for granted. No one wants to spend $40 to ship back some items that cost you $60.
Even on eBay one cannot keep selling fakes on long term. Buyers not checking seller's reputation are not that many.
Quote from: ggedamed on January 17, 2014, 02:31:36 PM
Even on eBay one cannot keep selling fakes on long term. Buyers not checking seller's reputation are not that many.
I've checked feedback from sellers on specific purchases such as an MN3005, selling known fakes and they've received good feedback on them, I think people get the item and don't check it.
Also, a lot of these guys have 20,000+ feedback or whatever, if they sell a majority of legitimate components that are still available easily but when it comes to DIY parts that may only make up a small amount of what they sell, the feedback % doesn't suffer that much.
Quote from: Scruffie on January 17, 2014, 02:46:32 PM
Quote from: ggedamed on January 17, 2014, 02:31:36 PM
Even on eBay one cannot keep selling fakes on long term. Buyers not checking seller's reputation are not that many.
I've checked feedback from sellers on specific purchases such as an MN3005, selling known fakes and they've received good feedback on them, I think people get the item and don't check it.
Also, a lot of these guys have 20,000+ feedback or whatever, if they sell a majority of legitimate components that are still available easily but when it comes to DIY parts that may only make up a small amount of what they sell, the feedback % doesn't suffer that much.
The BBD chips are ESD sensitive. It's not that hard to damage them and it can happen on any step from the manufacturer to the PCB. For me is easier to think that the chip got damaged somehow without anyone noticing than that some people buy parts to use them and they don't notice the parts are fried.
I realise they are (although they are not as ESD sensitive as some parts) but people have bought 200 pieces, none of which worked, all sharing the same date code and all of them clearly not MN3005s, even from reputable sellers like UT Source.
Even EHX has been hit by fake MN3005s for their Deluxe Memory Man Tap Tempo 1s, which is how the Memory Man TT 550 came out where they used 3008s instead, which are easier to get.
Smallbear also got fake 3005s that were re-stamped 3008s.
I've seen it a lot of times, as have others, in fact there's a page on how to spot them on line.
I have a bunch of re-stamped chips here, it's clear they are as the tops are freshly stamped where as the bottoms are a lot older and all show different batch codes.
Interesting debate, something I had never thought of to be honest (not fake, just mislabelled / faulty / other). I think if you can rub off a label with alcohol then there is no doubt that its a fake (which has happened before I believe). I guess there could be mn3005's that were manufactured in a faulty batch with only half the delay time? There's also the concern that there are ALOT of different people receiving these parts, not everyone knows what their doing and could falsely report a chip as 'fake' even though it actually works as it should.
I think there is enough money in certain chips to warrant counterfeiting though. what sort of equipment would be required to re-label a chip?
> what sort of equipment would be required to re-label a chip?
Fine silk-screen? An old-skool T-shirt shop would be able to order fine silk and a small screen holder.
Quote from: PRR on January 18, 2014, 09:47:31 PM
> what sort of equipment would be required to re-label a chip?
Fine silk-screen? An old-skool T-shirt shop would be able to order fine silk and a small screen holder.
There might be a T-shirt shop in China....wait...let me check my closet....... :icon_wink:
By some of the re-labeling I've seen, I wouldn't rule out some sort of hand held stamping device....rubber stamp?
pad printer?
Jon Patton and a fine paint brush? :D