I am attempting to build a Colorsound Overdriver clone circuit and am in the process of breadboarding it to try out different transistors, which are different bc109 variations. I've tried half a dozen times to complete this circuit on a cheap radioshack breadboard and each time I get to the end of the circuit (testing 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4ths of the way by running a jumper wire to output) i get no sound.
I am referencing this for connections and the bill of materials and am following the schematic in the description section completely on the breadboard.
http://diy-layout.com/78 (http://diy-layout.com/78)
This is my second build, which I may have jumped into prematurely, so I may be missing something obvious, but I have literally took everything off multiple times and reset it, tested, and I can never get the circuit to the end with any sound.
Check the voltage applied to the collector resistors is actually 9v or thereabout, and check the voltage is zero at the ground points. Some breadboards have a split in the middle of the ground and power rails: make sure you have jumpered this. Post voltages at collector, base and emitter for each transistor. Post a picture of your breadboarded layout so we may spot possible errors.
+1 Once you get it, it will be EASY, you just have to overcome the initial learning curve. It's not a steep curve, you just have to get in the hang of how to set things up. Don't give up! Nocentelli gives good advice.
I seem to always have one or (more) connection that's missed by a pin, helps if i spread things out and have an unobstruted view of the leads going into the board.
^ +1, big time
Quotethe end of the circuit
What do you mean, specifically? Are you using the schematic or the strip board layout as a reference? At what intersection of components do you no longer get signal from? Going from the 'tone stack' (the bass and treble controls) to Q3 (the 'last' transistor) is the most likely place to have an issue. Do you get sound from the tone stack? Do the controls do anything? I have a Radio Shack breadboard that indeed has the split in the power rails (the long tracks on either side) that I have to jumper if I use the middle or entire breadboard, like Nocentelli said.
Quote from: garcho on May 05, 2014, 02:06:14 PM
^ +1, big time
Quotethe end of the circuit
What do you mean, specifically? Are you using the schematic or the strip board layout as a reference? At what intersection of components do you no longer get signal from? Going from the 'tone stack' (the bass and treble controls) to Q3 (the 'last' transistor) is the most likely place to have an issue. Do you get sound from the tone stack? Do the controls do anything? I have a Radio Shack breadboard that indeed has the split in the power rails (the long tracks on either side) that I have to jumper if I use the middle or entire breadboard, like Nocentelli said.
layout for breadboard??? Really??
^ Wha?
I make layouts for breadboard all the time. I can't efficiently breadboard a flanger without a layout, for instance. But I didn't bring up layout, did I? I was just wondering if he was going by the schematic or the strip board.
Quote from: nocentelli on May 05, 2014, 07:00:47 AM
Check the voltage applied to the collector resistors is actually 9v or thereabout, and check the voltage is zero at the ground points. Some breadboards have a split in the middle of the ground and power rails: make sure you have jumpered this. Post voltages at collector, base and emitter for each transistor. Post a picture of your breadboarded layout so we may spot possible errors.
By putting each multimeter probe on each end of the resistors going from the collectors, I yielded results of approx. 8V on the first, only about .34 on the second and about 3.3 on the third. So they are not all around 9v.
How exactly do I measure the transistor voltages at different legs? Ground or + to the different legs?
The + and ground terminals are all jumpered together.
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=29816.0
"Just keep the black lead on ground, and touch the pointed end of the red probe to each one in turn."
Q1:
C - 1.6
B - 1.0
E - .45
Q2:
C - 4.2
B - 1.7
E - 1.1
Q3:
C - 5.4
B - 2.2
E - 1.6
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some pictures, although it may be too busy of a circuit to be able to comprehend through a picture...
Input/before transistor #1 (input closest to bottom of picture)
(http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/aggroafroimblack/IMG_20140505_182850_resized_zpsf4af6a5b.jpg)
After transistor #1/gain pot
(http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/aggroafroimblack/IMG_20140505_182921_resized_zpsaaf1a5d4.jpg)
transistor #2/tone stack
(http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/aggroafroimblack/IMG_20140505_182936_resized_zpsa3006923.jpg)
transistor #3/output
(http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/aggroafroimblack/IMG_20140505_182948_resized_zpsbf615a6e.jpg)
(http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/aggroafroimblack/IMG_20140505_183800_resized_zps3196598f.jpg)
In the photo, transistor #2/tone stack, it looks like the first red wire from the left (wiper wire) isn't connected to anything (hole 52,f). Same with the cap in holes 45, 49, looks like not connected to anything in row49.
dave
Quote from: davent on May 05, 2014, 07:31:59 PM
In the photo, transistor #2/tone stack, it looks like the first red wire from the left (wiper wire) isn't connected to anything (hole 52,f). Same with the cap in holes 45, 49, looks like not connected to anything in row49.
dave
I think its the angle of the photo that makes them look disconnected but they are indeed all connected, just tested them.
In your first picture the resistor in the middle that I believe you intend to goto v+
Isn't actually connected since you don't have a jumper across the sets of V+ (the broken rows of 5 many times aren't actually connected together and require a jumper between them)
Quote from: pappasmurfsharem on May 05, 2014, 08:10:10 PM
In your first picture the resistor in the middle that I believe you intend to goto v+
Isn't actually connected since you don't have a jumper across the sets of V+ (the broken rows of 5 many times aren't actually connected together and require a jumper between them)
I was unaware of this! I did try jumpering every set of 5 together and still dont have sound, however I may try reconstructing the board from scratch again with this in mind!
Quote from: frogman on May 05, 2014, 08:32:40 PM
Quote from: pappasmurfsharem on May 05, 2014, 08:10:10 PM
In your first picture the resistor in the middle that I believe you intend to goto v+
Isn't actually connected since you don't have a jumper across the sets of V+ (the broken rows of 5 many times aren't actually connected together and require a jumper between them)
I was unaware of this! I did try jumpering every set of 5 together and still dont have sound, however I may try reconstructing the board from scratch again with this in mind!
You might want to test before reinventing the wheel.
Assuming that's meant to be 9v put you multimeter black lead to ground of you power source directly if possible. Then touch the red lead to that leg of the resistor going to 9v track. I'm pretty certain you won't have a connection but see f t reads 9vs
Quote from: pappasmurfsharem on May 05, 2014, 08:38:05 PM
Quote from: frogman on May 05, 2014, 08:32:40 PM
Quote from: pappasmurfsharem on May 05, 2014, 08:10:10 PM
In your first picture the resistor in the middle that I believe you intend to goto v+
Isn't actually connected since you don't have a jumper across the sets of V+ (the broken rows of 5 many times aren't actually connected together and require a jumper between them)
I was unaware of this! I did try jumpering every set of 5 together and still dont have sound, however I may try reconstructing the board from scratch again with this in mind!
You might want to test before reinventing the wheel.
Assuming that's meant to be 9v put you multimeter black lead to ground of you power source directly if possible. Then touch the red lead to that leg of the resistor going to 9v track. I'm pretty certain you won't have a connection but see f t reads 9vs
I may have mis-interpreted what you meant... I thought you meant that every 5 -/+ rows need jumpered together... When im pretty sure its only the slightly larger gap in the middle of the board and the two different sides that needs jumpered, making 4 different sections that need jumpered together...
Quote from: frogman on May 05, 2014, 09:30:56 PM
Quote from: pappasmurfsharem on May 05, 2014, 08:38:05 PM
Quote from: frogman on May 05, 2014, 08:32:40 PM
Quote from: pappasmurfsharem on May 05, 2014, 08:10:10 PM
In your first picture the resistor in the middle that I believe you intend to goto v+
Isn't actually connected since you don't have a jumper across the sets of V+ (the broken rows of 5 many times aren't actually connected together and require a jumper between them)
I was unaware of this! I did try jumpering every set of 5 together and still dont have sound, however I may try reconstructing the board from scratch again with this in mind!
You might want to test before reinventing the wheel.
Assuming that's meant to be 9v put you multimeter black lead to ground of you power source directly if possible. Then touch the red lead to that leg of the resistor going to 9v track. I'm pretty certain you won't have a connection but see f t reads 9vs
I may have mis-interpreted what you meant... I thought you meant that every 5 -/+ rows need jumpered together... When im pretty sure its only the slightly larger gap in the middle of the board and the two different sides that needs jumpered, making 4 different sections that need jumpered together...
No that is what I mean every gap basically means disconnected.
However I believe somebody mentioned before that their boards power rail segments are connected. All I know is every breadboard I've used they are not.
So yes on the plus and minus sides there are two rows of five a small gap two rows of five another gap and so on.
Those gaps represent a disconnection.
I was just saying before you start from scratch make sure that's true. But I'm pretty sure it is.
I've been typing on my phone so just to avoid any confusion this is what you need to do to make sure all your V+ and GND rails are connected.
Jumpers like in the following picture.
(http://i.imgur.com/psChaT3.png)
My breadboard looks exactly like that one and it has continuity along the power rails. I assumed the unbroken blue and red lines that run along the power rails were meant to indicate as much.
Quote from: frogman on May 05, 2014, 06:43:51 PM
transistor #3/output
(http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/aggroafroimblack/IMG_20140505_182948_resized_zpsbf615a6e.jpg)
that resistor at the steep angle, looks like brown green yellow, does it have the full length of its lead or was it clipped/broken off at some point?
Quote from: MaxPower on May 06, 2014, 03:46:13 AM
I assumed the unbroken blue and red lines that run along the power rails were meant to indicate as much.
Me too. It would be easy enough to do a very quick continuity test to confirm.
Quote from: pappasmurfsharem on May 06, 2014, 02:06:11 AM
I've been typing on my phone so just to avoid any confusion this is what you need to do to make sure all your V+ and GND rails are connected.
Jumpers like in the following picture.
(http://i.imgur.com/psChaT3.png)
After testing, continuity does exist between the gaps marked in this picture, on this breadboard. The slightly larger gaps in the very middle are not connected though.I ended up re-doong the whole thing and getting sound by orienting the volume and gain pots different, still not how the circuit should sound though.
On every board I've ever seen, for 20 years, there is continuity between the rows of 5. On a FEW boards (they did NOT have blue and red lines along the busses, they were all white and were hard to work with), the continuity stops in the middle, and you'd need ONE jumper for each row to continue it. Yours might be that way too, of course. They're made to use those rows for power, and thus have continuity for at least part of their length, by definition.
What we have here is the need to go back to simplicity, I think. It should be small work to determine if there's continuity, and it looks like Frogman just did that. Next is to see if you read about 9V referenced to ground in the places you should, like outboard of any collector resistors. It might have been easier to try a few more BASIC projects before something this complicated, ha ha! But we can carry on....
Earlier, you had said something about V+ and ground being connected together - now THAT wouldn't be a good thing!! I'm thinking it must've been a typo, or you'd have no places to measure any 9V. Everywhere that needs 9V must have it, and everywhere that needs to go to ground also must be well-connected. No ifs ands or butts, they have to. And NO resistors can cross (touch leads) each other! That's an old way to get shorts, has caused many problems over the years ;o) Sometimes you can get things working by moving the resistors/caps lightly with a pencil eraser...
in my humble opinion, and from years of doing, it is far better to have components with their leads as short as they need to be to reach a row of holes; sticking straight out the bottom, unbent, of caps, bend square at the ends, or stand on end for resistors, etc. nothing more than six or seven holes between. THEN, link with single-core wire, let it and it's insulation do the hard work and the flying and the reaching.
and move the parts closer together, close like in the circuit diagram.
I've been wrong before, though.
Quote from: GibsonGM on May 06, 2014, 09:06:09 AM
On every board I've ever seen, for 20 years, there is continuity between the rows of 5. On a FEW boards (they did NOT have blue and red lines along the busses, they were all white and were hard to work with), the continuity stops in the middle, and you'd need ONE jumper for each row to continue it. Yours might be that way too, of course. They're made to use those rows for power, and thus have continuity for at least part of their length, by definition.
What's the design purpose of Sectioning them off into Sets of 5 if there is already continuity? why not just Straight rows.
Quote from: GibsonGM on May 06, 2014, 09:06:09 AM
On every board I've ever seen, for 20 years, there is continuity between the rows of 5. On a FEW boards (they did NOT have blue and red lines along the busses, they were all white and were hard to work with), the continuity stops in the middle, and you'd need ONE jumper for each row to continue it. Yours might be that way too, of course. They're made to use those rows for power, and thus have continuity for at least part of their length, by definition.
What we have here is the need to go back to simplicity, I think. It should be small work to determine if there's continuity, and it looks like Frogman just did that. Next is to see if you read about 9V referenced to ground in the places you should, like outboard of any collector resistors. It might have been easier to try a few more BASIC projects before something this complicated, ha ha! But we can carry on....
Earlier, you had said something about V+ and ground being connected together - now THAT wouldn't be a good thing!! I'm thinking it must've been a typo, or you'd have no places to measure any 9V. Everywhere that needs 9V must have it, and everywhere that needs to go to ground also must be well-connected. No ifs ands or butts, they have to. And NO resistors can cross (touch leads) each other! That's an old way to get shorts, has caused many problems over the years ;o) Sometimes you can get things working by moving the resistors/caps lightly with a pencil eraser...
I am not sure what you mean by '9V referenced to ground'. From the schematic, some things go to ground and others to 9V. Excuse my ignorance, but aren't they nothing more than reference points?
Also in the schematic, there is an electrolytic capacitor linking 9V and ground together?
You may be on to something though... I' m sure I could benefit from bearing in mind that the ground and 9v must be completely separate.
What Gibson means is that you take voltage readings using ground as the reference point (ground/negative lead of the multimeter on ground, the positive lead to the place you want to check the voltage). Check that you are getting the voltage readings you expect where you expect them. All too often newbies (we've all done it) make the mistake of taking readings using a different reference point (and not specifying). Then chaos ensues.
The capacitor going from +9V to ground is meant to short unwanted ac to ground. If it's between stages it's probably there to prevent possible oscillation (or is that just an op amp issue?). Or it could be there to filter the power supply (from dc ripple?). At least that's my understanding of its purpose(s).
Ended up getting it earlier today. It really helped to designate separate sides of the board for 9V and ground, cutting the leads shorter also helped me spot misplaced stuff... Will definitely be doing it this way in the future!
Quote from: MaxPower on May 07, 2014, 02:02:45 AM
What Gibson means is that you take voltage readings using ground as the reference point (ground/negative lead of the multimeter on ground, the positive lead to the place you want to check the voltage). Check that you are getting the voltage readings you expect where you expect them. All too often newbies (we've all done it) make the mistake of taking readings using a different reference point (and not specifying). Then chaos ensues.
The capacitor going from +9V to ground is meant to short unwanted ac to ground. If it's between stages it's probably there to prevent possible oscillation (or is that just an op amp issue?). Or it could be there to filter the power supply (from dc ripple?). At least that's my understanding of its purpose(s).
+1, Max, and you did hit on the right concept, Frog - it's about 'references'.
Another kind of 'reference' would be if you measured the voltage drop of a diode IN CIRCUIT, with your probes on either side of it. You might read "1.87" on either side of an LED ("across the LED"), for instance. That would be referenced 'cathode to anode'. If you measured with one probe on ground, you could read "8.2 on one side (anode), 6.33 on the other (cathode)" in this example. So, we just say 'referenced to ground' in those situations (most ALL) where you want to read "the voltage on the... <insert part name here>". Keeps it simple - I am overcomplicating the description here!
Max also is correct, the cap between 9V and ground is a filter, or reservoir, cap. It acts kinda like a little 'battery' if your power supply gets dodgey/ripply, and also helps to "decouple" the power supply (good topic for searching/reading). Yes, 9V and gnd ARE entirely separate FOR DC.
For AC signals, they are one and the same (the filter cap becomes a virtual 'short' to an AC signal), but I'll leave you to achieve greatness with the boarding before we get into THAT area, ha ha, not really important yet...glad it's working for you now, keep on throwing circuits together and soon it will all make sense!