Hi,
A friend asked me a question I didn't know how to answer.
Why are some pedals, Behringer distortion for example, sound bad compared to others?
Is it because their circuits aren't as good or because they use worse quality parts? Maybe it's something else?
Btw I'm truly a beginner, getting ready to order my first parts right now :)
Thanks!
Quote from: Neta on December 07, 2014, 07:47:27 AM
Hi,
A friend asked me a question I didn't know how to answer.
Why are some pedals, Behringer distortion for example, sound bad compared to others?
Is it because their circuits aren't as good or because they use worse quality parts? Maybe it's something else?
Btw I'm truly a beginner, getting ready to order my first parts right now :)
Thanks!
It's because the good ones have been kissed by the guitar gods. :icon_lol:
Well, OK, really it's because their circuits are not as good. Or, more correctly, their circuits don't do as good a job of matching what the human hearing setup "likes" and that the human brain has come to expect by listening to recordings.
It is in general NOT because they use worse quality parts, with very, very few exceptions. It is practically impossible to make a bad sounding guitar effect sound really good by only changing out the existing parts for "better quality" ones, no matter how much you're told this is true. There are slight differences in component sound; but there are HUGE differences in sound depending on the design of the circuit.
Hunting for "magic" parts is not in general very productive. The notable exceptions are largely in getting good, low leakage germanium devices for "fuzz face" style circuits, and some minor changes in sound where opamps are driven into clipping themselves; there are differences in capacitor types that are small enough that it takes good instruments to find them. There are not changes in resistors big enough to even think about, exception that carbon comp resistors have excess noise.
It's the circuits.
Thanks that really cleared things up.
So what makes them not go out and take an existing good sounding pedal circuit, modify it slightly to avoid copyright lawsuits, are remarket it as their own?
Q: What makes a guitar pedal sound good?
A: A good guitar player. :D
If you've seen the pedal demos by Andy at Pro Guitar Shop (search YouTube if not) you'll see that he makes every guitar pedal he features sound good! So how do you choose an overdrive if they all sound good? :icon_wink:
IMHO there are two aspects of a guitar pedal to consider (ignoring cost): (1) electro-mechanical quality, and (2) sound. Number (1) can be easily assessed if you open up the unit. Does it look professionally constructed with quality components (e.g. no electrical tape used to mount the circuitboard :icon_eek:)? You'd be surprised how some pro pedals fail in this area. Number (2) is more subjective. A fuzzy, gated tone that you love is something I may not care for. Even subtle nuances (slightly too much treble or bass, not enough gain, etc.) may cause you to reject a particular pedal, even though others find it acceptable.
This all well and good, though, because it means the search for "the tone" is a never-ending quest. :)
Quote from: Neta on December 07, 2014, 08:00:05 AM
So what makes them not go out and take an existing good sounding pedal circuit, modify it slightly to avoid copyright lawsuits, are remarket it as their own?
That is in fact what the vast majority of pedals on the market are. There are a simply incredible number of boutique pedals that are simply copies with minor changes of the Tube Screamer and Fuzz Face. Sometimes they're identical copies, sometimes they're tweaked.
And Frank is right - good sound comes from two places, the skill of the player and the personal preferences of the listener. What one person loves, another hates. The only thing sure about whether people like an effect is that some will, some won't.
If you think about it, this variation in tone and preferences is the reason there is ANY difference in pedals. If there was only one secret way to make good sound, then all pedals would be a copy of the "good" one, and there would be no other choices.
OK, aesthetics 101:
There are very few objective qualities an effect unit can have: signal to noise ratio, immunity to interference, lifetime of controls (pots, buttons etc.) and enclosure, and most trivially important, whether it produces the required effect consistently. This is how we can say one thing sounds
good: generally we don't want noisy effects, scratchy pots and intermittent operation. Generally, because
some effects are more or less designed to act like they're "broken", but these are rare special cases.
What you're probably asking is what makes a pedal sound
pleasant. This is a word that describes a different category: subjective relations between the listener, whatever produces sound (usually a deceptively complex system) and the circumstances in which the sound is judged. It should then become obvious that the aesthetic evaluation (whether you
like what you hear or not) itself is contingent upon many many factors of various importance (how much you paid for the effect, what color the box is, how long its hype thread on TGP is, how far away from the speakers you're standing, how tired you are and how many beers you've had and so on). It is also strictly personal and singular, ephemeral: what
you like tells us nothing about what anyone else likes, and what you prefer today may not be the same tomorrow or even 20 minutes from now. Though multiple instances of judgment can reveal patterns and even hints of universality (e.g. most people most of the time like perfect fifts and not diminished fifths).
So, to recap, when a pedal doesn't sound
good, it's broken. When you don't
like how it sounds, it's not for you. But it's probably perfect for somebody else.
And while you provided a specific example,
QuoteWhy are some pedals, Behringer distortion for example, sound bad compared to others?
Prejudice. In this particular case, a lot of Behringer effects are functionally identical to other famous products. What would be the point of cloning something that nobody likes, anyway?
I'd be willing to bet nobody can tell a Behringer (or Joyo or any other) clone from the original in a proper blind test. Take away the blindfold and notice how the "sound" changes. Isn't perception magic?!
Wait 20 years after you graduate high school, and then look through your H.S. yearbook. You'll be rather taken aback by who was considered "hot", and who wasn't. You'll find yourself thinking "What did they see in her, and how did I miss that other one?".
Simply put, our standards for what sounds, feels, looks, tastes, or smells good can change, and can be shaped by the zeitgeist of the time. Once upon a time the gating effect of many vintage fuzzes was considered a serious weak spot, leading to their disuse. We simply hated the way you'd try and hold a note, and it would fizzle and gurgle. Flash ahead 30 years, and Tube Screamers, and similar overdrives, are all the rage, with the gating of things like the ZVex Fuzz Factory gaining notice but still amongst a minority. Flash ahead another 10 years and everybody is crazy for pedals that misbehave and screw with your sound and sustain in almost the same way we hated in the 60's and 70's.
So what you're saying is that pedals that are considered by the majority to sound pleasant today, are simply the result of an electrical engineer who knew what people in general consider "good sound" today?
Mind. Blown.
Thanks everyone for all the great comments!
Quote from: Neta on December 07, 2014, 11:57:39 AM
So what you're saying is that pedals that are considered by the majority to sound pleasant today, are simply the result of an electrical engineer who knew what people in general consider "good sound" today?
Mind. Blown.
Thanks everyone for all the great comments!
The received wisdom (although this may simply be folk legend) is that the engineers at Roland/Boss aim for designs that, if you set all knobs to 12:00, most players will like what they hear. I guess when you're big enough, you can afford to do market research.
Quote from: Neta on December 07, 2014, 11:57:39 AM
an electrical engineer who knew what people in general consider "good sound" today
Well, what you're describing is prescience. What we're describing is fashion.
Some electrical engineers and other wire benders try to predict upcoming trends, ride the current wave before it fizzles out, or set trends of their own. Others just design or tweak to suit their own taste, which may or may not happen to be similar to others'. Others yet work with higher-profile artists, to suit their taste and presumably their fans'. And yes, those who can afford do research.
Yes, it's a crapshoot, but there are, like I said, overarching trends. The Tube Screamer is popular for a reason. Many factors are cultural, some are economic, some are neuroaesthetic.
Part of the problem with pedal design is consistency.
1. Are the controls buffered or do they depend on what else is connected in the effects chain?
2. Is the circuitry temperature-invariant or is it like a fuzz face which will have different characteristics depending on temperature?
3. Is the guitar output buffered or is its treble response going to be compromised by low input impedance in the following stage?
4. Does battery voltage have an effect on the sound? Does it operate properly from a wall-wart?
5. Does the design depend on unpublished / uncontrolled device parameters?
6. Is there good power decoupling or are you at the mercy of your power source?
7. If your design uses a Vref of half Vcc, is it stable or do a number of stages share one Vref and feed interference back through it?
8. Does it use true bypass or is the alternative well-designed?
Maybe Clapton likes a certain pedal because it works well in his system but it wouldn't in yours. Maybe someone who gigs from Nome to Phoenix likes his Fuzz Face in Nome but not Phoenix or Phoenix but not Nome because of temperature sensitivity built into the pedal. But it works fine in a studio. Maybe you have an unregulated wall-wart and your friend has a regulated one and the effect sounds entirely different.
None of this addresses design issues related to signal processing and sound, just basic engineering principles. It also highlights why a pedal may sound good for one person but not another. My designs always use voltage regulation in the pedal. (I don't use 9 volt sources unless I use two for positive and negative supplies.) The input is buffered and so is the output and all controls are between the buffers so the device will sound the same no matter what it is connected to. I have used true bypass but there are alternatives that may be better. Once you get the basics right, tweaking the sound should be trivial.
Quote from: FiveseveN on December 07, 2014, 12:49:39 PM
Quote from: Neta on December 07, 2014, 11:57:39 AM
an electrical engineer who knew what people in general consider "good sound" today
Well, what you're describing is prescience.
Over 3,000 years ago, the God Emperor of Tone* set mankind upon his Golden Path, having seen it in prescient vision as the best of all possible courses for humanity. This is why pedals sound so good today.
Quote from: Neta on December 07, 2014, 07:47:27 AM
Hi,
A friend asked me a question I didn't know how to answer.
Why are some pedals, Behringer distortion for example, sound bad compared to others?
Is it because their circuits aren't as good or because they use worse quality parts? Maybe it's something else?
Btw I'm truly a beginner, getting ready to order my first parts right now :)
Thanks!
Ok, circuit design aside, I've built some identical pedals where some units came out sounding incredible and others were pretty meh. I don't think component quality has much to do with it either. Some of my best sounding builds have cheapo caps and chinsy resistors. For all I know, the cheapness of a part might result in it doing something that sounds
good. But in most cases, swapping out a cheap part for an equivalent (but higher quality) part doesn't really result in a noticeable difference. But generally, if I like a circuit, I'll like most instances of that circuit. If I don't, I won't.
Behringer pedals don't necessarily sound bad. Their bad reputation comes from the fact that they're cheaply made (plastic enclosures) and tend to break. The one Behringer pedal I have is actually well made despite the corners they obviously cut in designing it.
The distortions that sound particularly awful to me tend to be the budget the models. The cheap Washburn pedals you can get at Target. Generic Chinese-made stuff. I doubt much R&D or tweaking goes into them. Some Reverb/Chorus/Delay type stuff might sound sterile because little regard was given to what frequencies are getting effected. The designer probably just went off of some data sheet, or built something to do the basic job. "This distorts the signal. My work here is done." Compare that with the BSIABII, which was tweaked to get a very specific sound, one that a lot of people like. Or the Klon, where the God Emperor had an engineer come up with the basic circuit topology and then spent years choosing various component values by ear until it sounded perfect to him.
*Bill Finnegan
Good philosophy lessons here ;D
I'm gonna hijack this for a sec (ever so slightly). Why DOES the klon sound so good? The ever present mythology and hype aside, I love the klon and it's derivatives. Was it design genius or luck, or potentially some mix of both? I know that many people don't really care for the klon, an is say a small percentage of that is simply because it is in fact, THE KLON. His seamingly foolish claims that the tears of God himself formed the particular diodes on the 8th day of creation and the odd component values are necessary to achieve klon-ness haven't helped his credibility at all (although may have padded his wallet a but more), but what gives? Design magic or lottery style luck?
Great thread. RG's input on components is especially appreciated. Having been in retail for over 30 years i understand how hype and marketing work. As much as I love to see nice websites and full color adds in VG for the latest high end pedals, I do not fall for what I see. Not to take anything away from the people who buy and love them, it's their ears that have to be pleased, not mine, and if it is pleasing to them then it was money well spent. Like food and wine, it's an individual taste thing.
I think anyone who frequents this fantastic forum is knowledgeable enough to understand that your entire signal chain has to be considered in searching for pleasing tone and/or effects. Who here does not have a particular guitar that likes one amp better than another in the collection? Same with a pedals too. Different amp or guitar, possibly a different result. But that's part of the fun of this game.
Then there is the player..... the ultimate factor. I stink. Plug me into EC or Jimi's rig and I'll still sound crap if you hold me to those standards. Conversely, I can do a very credible impersonation of say..the Gants for example. ;D
I would have to say that, based on recent experience and evaluation, people actually value the "look" and feel of a pedal over it's actual sound. :icon_eek:
I know it does not sound right but.... do a little research and you will see it first hand. I have seen people value the harshest sounding pedals in a beautifully esthetic enclosure and I have also seen people trash a great sounding pedal housed in a not-so-esthetically-pleasing enclosure.
There have been several times I have been left scratching my head saying..... WTF? :-\
so much incredible knowledge here. The sad part is that a majority of this is overlooked by 98% of the populous of guitar pedal users.
This brings to mind - we should have a shoot out with some exceptional guitar players. Put one pedals circuitry into anothers enclosure and see if people can spot the difference and see if the enclosure really DOES have an influence to players on the sound. I think the results of that would be fascinating to see.
Take a look at the hype and hate of Metal Zone and MXR Fullbore Metal.
In some ads, the Fullbore is touted as being a die cast metal box being a feature, although it's simply an unpainted box. Marketing.
Pedals are just tools like anything else. Are more functions in a tool better or worse? Do those functions create or solve subjective problems for the user?
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on December 10, 2014, 10:16:16 AM
I would have to say that, based on recent experience and evaluation, people actually value the "look" and feel of a pedal over it's actual sound. :icon_eek:
I know it does not sound right but.... do a little research and you will see it first hand. I have seen people value the harshest sounding pedals in a beautifully esthetic enclosure and I have also seen people trash a great sounding pedal housed in a not-so-esthetically-pleasing enclosure.
There have been several times I have been left scratching my head saying..... WTF? :-\
That goes for the majority of consumer products. Not just including physical products but software as well ( and websites too )
This topic is actually why I started building pedals. I (as so many others) thought that the answer to my sound was a handwired TS that came out a few years ago. When I started looking into what made that pedal $350 over the $100-150 other TS models I came to the conclusion that there couldn't be $200+ more magic in that box (and of course, I didn't have $350 to drop on a pedal). I started looking around and found sites like this gem and others (although this is my daily mainstay for info and all), now I've built about 100 pedals, MOST of which work.... Since then I have affirmed my original conclusion that pretty boxes are nice and help me look cool as I rock out on stage but really the benefit stops there. I have built so many pedals that I couldn't otherwise afford, an have found some amazing circuits an some big disappointments, and am often surprised by which ones I love and vise versa. I have modded some common pedals where a few component changes (higher quality components, no value change) has made a decent improvement (boss pedals mostly), and modded others to the extent of component value changes which great results (cry baby, OCD, marshall jackhammer). I'd be lying if I told you the flair and shine of a new pedal doesn't get me excited now and then, but then I do a little digging to find its pretty much a ever so slightly modified version of something I already have. Matter of fact, I'm surprised that more musicians that buy audio products like effects and such don't do a little digging instead of so readily spending their cash on hyped up knockoffs.
Haiku:
No guitar pedal
Good bad, some like or hate all
Just good bad designs
Quote from: nate77 on December 10, 2014, 12:52:10 AM
I'm gonna hijack this for a sec (ever so slightly). Why DOES the klon sound so good? The ever present mythology and hype aside, I love the klon and it's derivatives. Was it design genius or luck, or potentially some mix of both? I know that many people don't really care for the klon, an is say a small percentage of that is simply because it is in fact, THE KLON. His seamingly foolish claims that the tears of God himself formed the particular diodes on the 8th day of creation and the odd component values are necessary to achieve klon-ness haven't helped his credibility at all (although may have padded his wallet a but more), but what gives? Design magic or lottery style luck?
The Klon sounds good for the same reason other circuits sound good. It's well tuned. The frequencies it filters or doesn't filter are frequencies that most people find pleasing. But it goes above and beyond typical overdrive circuits in that it's tuned specifically for pushing already pushed tubes. Bill took a circuit topology that his engineer collaborators came up with and auditioned components of different values until he got it sounding exactly how he wanted. That's why instead of the more typical 330k and 420k, we get values like 392k and 422k. He's never claimed the diodes were anything special. He just thought they were the best sounding choice for his circuit, and there is something to their uniqueness, though I can get very very close by hand-picking diode pairs from more standard germaniums. He also hasn't made a whole lot off the Klon-hype. It's the used Centaurs that go for crazy $$$, not the ones that were bought from Bill.
Swapping parts is easy leaving me to conclude what makes a great pedal is all in the circuit-board layout.
Quote from: FlyingZ on December 11, 2014, 06:21:59 PM
...leaving me to conclude what makes a great pedal is all in the circuit-board layout.
Laying out a PCB design that is well routed in signal separation and interference rejection, proper power filtering and distribution, compact size, rugged board construction with proper support for all board mounted and off board wiring, and esthetically pleases the eye is a skill I am still woefully lacking. :P
I guess I subscribe to the "If it pleases you..." camp. I have heard neophyte players make the most horrendous noises. Those sounds were what they wanted them to be, and
it pleased them. :icon_lol:
Quote from: nate77 on December 11, 2014, 03:47:21 PM
This topic is actually why I started building pedals. I (as so many others) thought that the answer to my sound was a handwired TS that came out a few years ago. When I started looking into what made that pedal $350 over the $100-150 other TS models I came to the conclusion that there couldn't be $200+ more magic in that box (and of course, I didn't have $350 to drop on a pedal). I started looking around and found sites like this gem and others (although this is my daily mainstay for info and all), now I've built about 100 pedals, MOST of which work.... Since then I have affirmed my original conclusion that pretty boxes are nice and help me look cool as I rock out on stage but really the benefit stops there. I have built so many pedals that I couldn't otherwise afford, an have found some amazing circuits an some big disappointments, and am often surprised by which ones I love and vise versa. I have modded some common pedals where a few component changes (higher quality components, no value change) has made a decent improvement (boss pedals mostly), and modded others to the extent of component value changes which great results (cry baby, OCD, marshall jackhammer). I'd be lying if I told you the flair and shine of a new pedal doesn't get me excited now and then, but then I do a little digging to find its pretty much a ever so slightly modified version of something I already have. Matter of fact, I'm surprised that more musicians that buy audio products like effects and such don't do a little digging instead of so readily spending their cash on hyped up knockoffs.
Between psycho-acoustics or whatever that term which means how people decipher sound, and regular psychology, there's so many reasons.
Its just like cars, buildings, etc. No one needs cars that look different or buildings that are shaped with particular architecture.
my sweet riffs!
It's all about the EQ...
At least in fuzz/distortion/overdrive pedals.
Look at the Tube Screamer. With the tone control centered, you still have the low and high ends rolled off to form a mid-range peak. With the Rat, you have the low end rolled off so it is very biting with a treble boost. Big Muffs are mostly flat response with a notch in the response from the tone control, and so on.
The EQ matters much more than any other aspect of the circuit design.
The same may apply to designs other than distortions. PT2399 circuits may have differences in EQ because of the filtering stages, and also other variations due to the LFO design. Some LFOs are more symmetrical than others. Even so, the EQ dominates.
Ross-type compressors can have the EQ tweaked for a jangly sound. Phasers have the caps tweaked to move the notch filters, but that is still EQ.
It's all about how the circuit designer is handling the frequency spectrum, and less about the choice of opamps or other components. Good EQ choices will usually lead to a good sounding pedal.
Best regards, Jack
It's All About That [Upright] Bass (no pedals)
http://youtu.be/iyTTX6Wlf1Y?t=2m20s