Hi!
I really need advice on something: I need to drill two 22mm XLR cutouts and their corresponding drill holes, with a high degree of precision, for 2 board-mounted XLR sockets. In 2mm-thick Hammond 1590* die-cast enclosures.
Until now, paper templates and glue have been fine, as there's been some room for slight errors when washers and CNC-cut panels are involved. Even singular XLR sockets or multiple board-mounted 1/4" sockets can be managed as such, but this isn't the case with more than 1 XLR socket. Accurately drilling 2 is HARD!
I have an industrial drill press and currently use a cone/stepping bit. I have no idea what route to take. I can afford something custom-made, within reason.
In my limited understanding from reading past posts here, I assume the ideal jig is a piece of metal with the appropriate hole sizes and positions, whose material isn't easily-drilled. If so, does this necessitate standard drill bits of a fixed size? How does the jig cope with and guide a rigid drill press into position?
Or is there a different approach? The internet is saturated enough on the matter to confuse me about which route to learn about.
Thanks for any help!
-Grant
A Greenlee punch?
Thanks! Would that work for Hammond 1590* enclosures, with their 2mm thickness? Sorry, should have said - will update OP.
Upon watching a YouTube vid, I'm not too sure if singular knockout punches would help get the holes the exact right distance apart. I can drill em, it's more a case of ensuring correct alignment I guess.
Quote from: MrStab on October 04, 2023, 06:32:57 PM22mm XLR cutouts ..., for 2 board-mounted XLR sockets.
Change your plans. Wire-connected sockets is more labor but a LOT less alignment headache and scrap.
Sounds like the perfect introductory project for teaching yourself CAD and 3D printing
If this is a one off, mark box as you use to, drill too small, finish with file.
A few boxes, flying leads
Full production, CAD
One thing that might help a bit if your box layout allows is to solder the connectors and pots on the board in the box. Put the box-mounted parts in their holes. If you put the nuts on, don't tighten. Fit the board in to the parts and then solder them in. After this you can tighten the nuts.
Usually there is a bit of wiggle room on the board mounting holes, but when you solder the parts in they are locked. That's why this could help. Actually, that wiggle room could work against you if you solder the parts on the board without the box.
This ofcource only helps if the board is placed in the box in an orientation that makes it possible to solder on it in place.
I've been making acrylic hole locators. Also use faceplate, so you see them attached with button head screws. Plus various fixtures to help assemble the board mounted pots. One box need a 2 inch + hole with 4 attachment holes, each in some odd location. Used a scroll saw to make big hole. The 4 screw holes needed some rat tail file work. Here are 2 different ones.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ygkQwYRM/A-DRILL-FIX.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ygkQwYRM)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ygtQB4Xk/A-WIRE-FIX-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ygtQB4Xk)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XZNDkgY7/FF-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XZNDkgY7)
Thanks for the replies!
I have FreeCAD models, and it's for production. More labour isn't too ideal as it's just my overworked self doing it, with a few pedal orders each week to get through. That said, outsourcing to Hammond or whoever probably wouldn't be too cheap and would cut into margins.
How could I translate CAD to drilling alignment in a reliable way?
As it stands, I can't reach the solder joints as the sockets are horizontally-mounted, but I may redesign to be vertical-mount (as standoffs allow reinforcement when plugs are inserted, albeit with added risk of board flexing). So post-insertion soldering is an option which makes sense to me.
Faceplates are an idea I'm considering (would be handy for labels, too), but going for 23mm holes instead of the bang-on 22mm puts the edges far too close to the mounting screw holes for comfort.
Some slight teething issues visible below lol:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jLRszr0G/IMG-20231005-133019.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jLRszr0G)
You might consider a hole saw to make big holes
(https://i.postimg.cc/6472j41g/71-AXWBPx-Yk-L-SL1500.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6472j41g)
Why not check out Tayda Electronics for their very good reliable and accurate drill service, at least you would get the 2 xlr holes in exact alignment and separation distance to each other. And the service is not that expensive, and while getting the xlr holes cut you could also get the rest of the enclosure cutouts done, or any line cuts like as in rectangles etc. You could also get the enclosure graphics done at the same time.
And think of all the time saved and cash saved from buying expensive cutting tools and doing the job yourself.
Enclosures and Drill Service (https://www.taydaelectronics.com/hardware/enclosures/1590bb-style.html)
I'm not totally averse to off-brand 1590 enclosures, but I recently tried a few of Tayda's pre-painted enclosures, and I wasn't happy with the quality of their 1590A's for a number of reasons. The 1590B's were fine. They don't seem to have the required 1590T.
Nonetheless, maybe I should shop around for such services from other distributors.
The standard cast box has a draft angle of 3 to 5 degrees to permit removing the box from the mould. You have to decide whether you want to drill perpendicular to the board or to the sidewall. They will have a 3 to 5 degree difference. This is one case where you could wire from the board to the connector and drill perpendicular to the side.
Quote from: amptramp on October 05, 2023, 10:07:02 AMYou have to decide whether you want to drill perpendicular to the board or to the sidewall.
The I/O board is mounted to and therefore aligned with the sidewall (unless I'm misunderstanding!)
I'll try to learn how to actually modify CAD models over the weekend, to send to services - tips welcome on that, too.
Surely there's a tool you can mount two drill bits into and have them turn simultaneously? That doesn't sound too insane. But then that's exactly what an insane person would say.
Id be inclined to keep using your paper jig, just use a punch spot so your bit doesn't walk. Drill everything a bit oversized so you have some slack.
Hi,
Last time I wanted to drill a few aligned holes I ordered an aluminum "PCB" with guide holes. It was $2 or $4 from JLC, I don't remember. I used it as a jig:
(https://i.postimg.cc/y1f3RC4d/image.png)
It's for a 10 knob preamp. The small holes are drill guides. I just tape the jig to the enclosure and drill the 10 holes with a 3mm bit. Then I remove the jig and use a step drill to make the holes the right size (7mm).
The large holes I use to hold the potentiometers while I solder and to test the circuit out of the box.
Another alternative is to disassemble a XLR connector and use it as the jig.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cvVHyBFx/machine.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/cvVHyBFx)
Gang Drill
Before that, back in the old days, we had a layout department. They used blue dykem layout fluid.
Brush in on, dries fast, then with a machinists scale and a scribe, measure to the hole location within +/- 1/64 inch. Draft? bump the box up against a "square metal block" and measure from that datum. Holes in the machine tool industry are usually located +/- .0056 inch, ansi Y14.5. That is for assembly of 2 parts.
Anyway, for stomp boxes, where you can oversize clearance holes, 1/64 is plenty good. Get a nice machinists scale, scribe, magnifier and blue dykem. And do it the ole fashioned way.
(correction 1/64 not 1/16)
You can adjust resistors yourself too, the old fashioned way, but i doubt anyone is going to do it. Anyone besides PRR know what i am talking about?
Quote from: mozz on October 05, 2023, 01:35:03 PMYou can adjust resistors yourself too, the old fashioned way, but i doubt anyone is going to do it. Anyone besides PRR know what i am talking about?
Filing into the resistor's body makes the resistance go up. Don't know the way to adjust down.
On topic:
marcelo's drill guide, taped with double-sided tape, has helped me on similar tasks. So did slightly oversizing holes and soldering jacks in situ, with solder pad holes large enough to give way in case of hole offset.
Quote from: marcelomd on October 05, 2023, 11:07:25 AMLast time I wanted to drill a few aligned holes I ordered an aluminum "PCB" with guide holes. It was $2 or $4 from JLC, I don't remember. I used it as a jig:
Wouldn't the rigidity of the press and the vice mean any misalignment would just end up in the jig being drilled through, though? I use this: https://www.clarketooling.co.uk/product/clarke-cdp102b-bench-drill-press-230v/ (https://www.clarketooling.co.uk/product/clarke-cdp102b-bench-drill-press-230v/)
JLC's prices for small quantities of less-common board types went way up earlier this year, btw! Meanies.
Quote from: Phend on October 05, 2023, 01:09:07 PMGang Drill
Before that, back in the old days, we had a layout department. They used blue dykem layout fluid.
Omgomgomg, seriously hoping this is something I can retrofit! I'll need to take a while to comprehend the rest of your post, as these concepts are new to me.
Quote from: mozz on October 05, 2023, 10:50:40 AMjust use a punch spot so your bit doesn't walk. Drill everything a bit oversized so you have some slack.
I do make a punch spot, but even a millimetre's error can cause things to go awry. The screw holes are very close to the edge of the main hole, so I'm apprehensive about making it too big. Am I being paranoid? Is there a standard imperial measurement which fits between 22 and 23mm?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z9jQvP51/xlrcutout.png) (https://postimg.cc/Z9jQvP51)
I wonder if something to precisely guide and create two punch spots/pilot holes in one blow would be a good approach.
Thanks to everyone for the input!
My old man's a marine engineer and just suggested a cross slide. Hmm...
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005497082638.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005497082638.html)
Quote from: MrStab on October 05, 2023, 02:18:29 PMQuote from: marcelomd on October 05, 2023, 11:07:25 AMLast time I wanted to drill a few aligned holes I ordered an aluminum "PCB" with guide holes. It was $2 or $4 from JLC, I don't remember. I used it as a jig:
Wouldn't the rigidity of the press and the vice mean any misalignment would just end up in the jig being drilled through, though? I use this: https://www.clarketooling.co.uk/product/clarke-cdp102b-bench-drill-press-230v/ (https://www.clarketooling.co.uk/product/clarke-cdp102b-bench-drill-press-230v/)
JLC's prices for small quantities of less-common board types went way up earlier this year, btw! Meanies.
I'm not sure I understand the question.
The idea is you use the jig to position the piece in relation to the drill bit first. Lower the drill into the guide hole, _then_ secure it in place.
I'm not recommending it, but it's possible to hold the piece with one hand, and let the drill "pull" the piece into place.
Maybe, if the alignment isn't perfect, it can "eat" the sides of the guide hole in the jig. That won't be a problem for a small batch.
Quote from: MrStab on October 05, 2023, 02:18:29 PMQuote from: mozz on October 05, 2023, 10:50:40 AMjust use a punch spot so your bit doesn't walk. Drill everything a bit oversized so you have some slack.
I do make a punch spot, but even a millimetre's error can cause things to go awry. The screw holes are very close to the edge of the main hole, so I'm apprehensive about making it too big. Am I being paranoid? Is there a standard imperial measurement which fits between 22 and 23mm?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z9jQvP51/xlrcutout.png) (https://postimg.cc/Z9jQvP51)
I wonder if something to precisely guide and create two punch spots/pilot holes in one blow would be a good approach.
Thanks to everyone for the input!
I honestly think you are being a bit paranoid, yes =)
Drill the screw holes first, then the big one.
Just use low power and go slowly. Aluminum is "easy" to work with and you can course correct. Touch the surface of the piece with the drill and check. Adjust if you need it. If it's mostly right, use a file for the final touches.
The XLR connectors all have a bezel, so it will hide any imperfections.
And, lastly, try doing it in a piece of junk, discarded enclosure, etc. before you try with the real one.
You will need a VICE and or clamps.
Your hands are NOT a vice.
The one you have left after using your hands as a vice, will be the only one you have left.
ALWAYS clamp or vice your work piece down.
Old timers will "medium tight" clamp work down and then rubber mallet TAP the clamp/work or vice or locator edge so the work piece hole location "mark" is perfectly under the drill. Then tighten securely.
And drill.
Time, accuracy and patience is involved (not to mention skill), but the outcome is satisfying.
There is no chance in Hell I'd even consider doing a 22mm hole with such a large chunk of metal without a vice :icon_lol: Don't ask me how I know the risks there! It's more than just my mitts I'd potentially lose!
Neutrik XLR sockets don't seem to have an imperfection-covering bezel.
Thanks, Marcelo - I think I'm understanding more that the jig isn't meant to force the drill bit into position, but more of a visual guide. I had it in my mind that they were for hand drills and the likes, and would literally guide the bit where it's meant to go.
I'm more optimistic now than I was when I first posted. Better understanding of jigs, post-fact soldering, cross slides and less pessimism about deliberate oversizing leave me hopeful.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VSs0PF7D/vertio.png) (https://postimg.cc/VSs0PF7D)
If I go for "shoot first, solder later", do you think I should expand pad holes slightly from Neutrik's recommended footprint? Or could that decrease reliability over time?
The sockets have plastic notches to reinforce against plug insertion force, so that makes me a bit uneasy about this approach. Though I'm not sure how much benefit these have on the vertical-mounted variants, as opposed to the horizontal ones.
Also as was mentioned, Greenlee hole punch. Not the conduit ones, the chassis punches. I have a few different sizes for tube sockets and a 15/16th is .9375. I also would punch the larger hole first and drill the outside holes second.
Aren't punches more for sheet metal, though, as opposed to 2mm-thick die-cast? If they can be used for die-cast, would there be some advantage in ensuring easier alignment of the 2 holes?
Quote from: MrStab on October 05, 2023, 06:44:57 PMno chance in Hell I'd even consider doing a 22mm hole with such a large chunk of metal without a vice
I have done it. And still have two hands.
BUT this was a hole-saw. In a 20+ inch fusebox. And I had oak blocks on both sides. And a very powerful slow drill which would scrape steel rather than get bound-up.
You are trying to center the large hole on a small triangle of PCB pads. All I can see is to make a 4th center hole in the PCB, clamp PCB to case, drill the pilot for the hole-saw. And common drill bits hog-out triangular holes, not counting homogeneity and sludge in the cheap pot-metal.
There are XLRs with long "wire-wrap" leads, usually bent, for remote PCB mount. These tolerate misalignment. But eat space. And it sounds like your space-budget is spent-up. And they are not widely stocked.
I didn't notice whether anyone suggested just laying out the big holes and drill to size, insert socket and drill the screw holes with the socket as the drill guide using a hex shank self- centering bit. Could do the screwholes with a handheld drill.
That's quite a cool idea, Dave - my metalwork-deficient brain can make sense of self-centering bits. Still trying to figure out what you mean, Paul!
My drill press is dumb and fast only. I think. If I half-understand properly, the male XLR socket has a neat triangle of PCB pads, but the combo jack is a bit more complicated.
Reasons why I'm not just using independent panel-mounted sockets: Female combo jack necessitating 7 connections and male needing to be switched by the TRS socket, meaning either 17 offboard wires for signal (or a bit less with some awkward jumpering), including XLR screen. Or an excess of PCB$ and interconnect$.
Quote from: MrStab on October 05, 2023, 08:28:07 AMAs it stands, I can't reach the solder joints as the sockets are horizontally-mounted, but I may redesign to be vertical-mount (as standoffs allow reinforcement when plugs are inserted, albeit with added risk of board flexing). So post-insertion soldering is an option which makes sense to me.
From looking at your pic: How about redesigning it with the horisontally mounted sockets, but turn it upside down. I mean, instead of the IO-board sitting in the middle of the enclosure, it would sit right next to the baseplate/lid and you could solder the sockets in the box easily.
Hmmm... Usually people propose to think outside of the boxand here I'm very much doing even more inside of the box thinking. :P
Edit: And again I failed to pay attention and missed that there is another page on this thread... I was referring to the photo on the first page.
Stop trifling and get one of these CNC machines, Would solve all your troubles.
(https://www.ebayphotogallery.com/zdjecia/z1069/10692007/big/1.jpg?screen)
or you could use a 22mm Forstner bit, Im sure a sharp one would get through the alloy box easy enough, so long as you clamped down the box and used a drill press.
While I'd love a room-sized CNC machine, the biggest risk is that my 5 year-old would instantly commandeer it to satiate his obsession with YouTube crafting videos.
There's no real reason why I can't do the board upside down, and it'd probably put less strain on the filter cap. I'm exploring possibilities and have a couple of versions of revised board at the moment.
Thanks for the Forstner bit suggestion. I'll look into that. I think a big issue with all of this is the slight inaccuracy of my punch/pilot holes. That's why, at least intuitively, in my mind and spatial awareness it makes sense to somehow have an accurate means of doing both punches at the same time.
Gah! This seems so stupid and simple. Maybe sleeping on all the advice for a while will help.
That CNC machine, Your 5 year old son might get lost inside of it. maybe not a good idea :D
Caution with that paddle bit, it will break your arm when it breaks thru.
Caution with the X Y table, the backlash will probably be great if it only costs $30.00.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1n2YmX0b/Untitled.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1n2YmX0b)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CB0R8SLD/image.png) (https://postimg.cc/CB0R8SLD)
This specific one was drilled with a handheld power drill. I let the jig guide the drill. Turned out ok. (I don't have a drill press. Yes, the enclosure was safely secured =) )
Whatever you decide to do, it's better to start with a small guide hole, like 3mm and then use a step drill. No need to start big.
Quote from: Phend on October 06, 2023, 10:39:45 AMCaution with the X Y table, the backlash will probably be great if it only costs $30.00.
From a professional standpoint, I was surprised my dad suggested an AliExpress listing.
From a personal standpoint, he has always been a sucker for marketing.
The cross slides do intuitively make a lot of sense to me, though, if the accuracy can be guaranteed. I've adjusted the PCB so the holes are 24mm apart, so no awkward decimals.
Quote from: marcelomd on October 06, 2023, 01:24:41 PMWhatever you decide to do, it's better to start with a small guide hole, like 3mm and then use a step drill. No need to start big.
I guess the crux of all this is that I struggle with high, repeatable accuracy of my punch and pilot holes, especially when it amplifies to this scale.
Last year, Hammond had a paint-flaking issue with their 1590SBK enclosures (acknowledged and resolved now, by Hammond, Rapid Online and Mouser). So I have 4 or 5 dud 1590SBK enclosures I could use to practice on. Finally, some use for them!
Masking tape helps with my punching accuracy. I hold the punch at 45 degrees so that I can set the point exactly on the mark, then raise the punch vertically. The masking tape stops the point moving.
My punch is one of those auto things so it's one handed, leaving my other to guide the point with a finger.
Quote from: Phend on October 06, 2023, 10:39:45 AMCaution with that paddle bit, it will break your arm when it breaks thru.
Caution with the X Y table, the backlash will probably be great if it only costs $30.00.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1n2YmX0b/Untitled.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1n2YmX0b)
Yeah, with step bits widely available and doing a great job doing what they were designed to do, it makes no sense to try drilling with a bit ill suited for the job, just asking for trouble.
If you need an in between sized hole, drill small and finish to size with a handreamer, you can creep up to a perfectly fit symetrical round hole, trying to file will lead to a distorted off centre hole unless you're a file master or get lucky.
Make yourself a Template from acrylic 1/4 inch with the 2 x 22mm holes next to each other.
If there were difficulty to make such a template accurately, then send off the drill plots to Tayda drill service on one of there box enclosures to be used as a sacrificial template at reasonable cost. At least you know you would have the 2 holes in alignment perfectly distanced with a CNC Drill cutout from Tayda.
Then mask off where your holes on actual enclosure are to be position cut those holes 20 - 21 mm out using a step bit,
Then place over your enclosure the template aligned exactly where you require the 2 x 22mm holes, its easily done with double sided tape to hold the template against the enclosure .
Then if you have a table top router preferred or even a plunge router you can trim the excess alloy from the holes to exact alignment with the 22mm hole template. See router bits suitable that use a bearing guide to exactly contour to the shape of the template .
Just be careful, and know the correct direction to move the router or the enclosure on the router table.
I have trimmed aluminum before this way, so long as you take very small bites at the material at a time until you get to the template finished result, it works without drama. Some router experience is useful.
(https://www.ebayphotogallery.com/zdjecia/z1069/10692040/big/1.jpg?screen)
(https://www.ebayphotogallery.com/zdjecia/z1069/10692039/big/1.jpg?screen)
(https://www.ebayphotogallery.com/zdjecia/z1069/10692039/big/3.jpg?screen)
(https://www.ebayphotogallery.com/zdjecia/z1069/10692039/big/2.jpg?screen)
In the process of making 4 effects.
Will make this template out of acrylic.
It will locate pots, switch and led. Plus.
First I will tape it upside down to the 1590BB box and drill 2 of the 4 corner holes.
Then open and tap those 2 holes.
Flip the template right side up and attach with 2 screws and drill / tap other two holes.
Fasten it down with 4 screws and drill locations of pots, switch, led and other.
Will use a small drill for all of this locating.
Then remove template and open holes with a step drill.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sMWy5wr8/F-MID-PLATES-TEMPLET.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sMWy5wr8)
Quote from: Phend on October 09, 2023, 10:44:49 AMWill make this template out of acrylic.
A physical guide for the pilot/punch hole itself. I like it. One of those things that jumps off the page to me.
Thanks guys!
FWIW, I'm doing the exact same thing as Kevin. And if you're really channelling your inner NASA, you can make a pretty precise "first guide dent" with something skinny like a needle before bringing the auto-punch onto the masking tape.
^ Great tip Marc
I use an optical center punch, makes it harder to screw things up. This is the one i have but it's no longer available, others are out there.
https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=104168.0#msg1220418
That is quite the precision locator. High teck.
How do you find / locate the place(s) to center punch ?
Quote from: Phend on October 11, 2023, 03:01:36 PMThat is quite the precision locator. High teck.
How do you find / locate the place(s) to center punch ?
Me?
Printout of a CAD drawing attached to whatever it is i'm drilling.
To accurately attach a printout say to the face of an enclosure, as accurately as i can draw the two center lines on the enclosure, the printout has centerlines to match, i then use a paper punch to put a hole through each of the four center line segments of the printout so i can so i see to match up the printout's center lines to those on the enclosure.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XrBBdcZ5/69385-ECC-750-B-4-B44-BCAD-1923374-FAACF.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XrBBdcZ5)
(https://i.postimg.cc/KKnKsGDv/C27-AD2-F8-341-D-4304-9-AA0-E452957-F2-AC1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/KKnKsGDv)
This was a production jig I made, an attempt at better registration on holes than paper templates and center punching, it's a 3D printed jig with these hardened steel 1/8" doweling hole jig inserts that woodworkers use. They're on the big side, but MUCH cheaper than industrial ones from McMaster. One of the nice things about the 3D print is the jig matches the tapered sides of the hammond box.
One of the issues that came up, is the first print had terrible dimensionality; while the printer is very good at knowing where it is as it prints, the whole scale changed because the plastic shrinks as it cools. The shrink is expressed as a percentage, so with bigger parts like this it adds up. I had to make a second one scaled from the errors of the first one. In the end it worked fine, but it still wasn't like, +/- .005" accuracy. In the future I think I might do a hybrid approach, 3D printed sides, but maybe send out for an acrylic laser cut plate for the top, or maybe the aluminum PCB. The nice thing about the doweling hole jigs is the thing they are attached to can be soft.