DIYstompboxes.com

Given that this discussion comes up here now & then, I thought you all might enjoy this:

http://musictoyz.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=6476029571&f=4066066091&m=742007965&p=1

See what some others have to say about the same thing. It's pretty entertaining and enlightening. Funny how it turns out one of the staunchest defenders doesn't even own one. :lol:

Doug

I like the last post with the list of celebrities who own a Cornish. The price means absolutely nothing to them. They probably don't drive a Daewoo, either, for that matter.

The comment about cables that "need to be shielded" is kind of funny, too. Cables inside a metal box are already shielded from the outside environment. They only need to be shielded if they couple to each other in some unwanted way. The practice of shielding every signal wire inside of an amp or box is, IMHO, a crutch for bad design and unnecessary for a good design (although occasionally it is necessary to shield SOME of the wires).

Am I wrong, but doesn't that Cornish G2 sample just sound like a BPM with the tone down?

Regards

RDV

He also covers his PCB's in red goo. It looks like a play-dough mock-up of a ckt :D

I had a performance ignition system that had the enclosure filled with an epoxy to protect it from the elements.  Well I had that ignition just long enough after the warranty expired before something went wrong inside.  I inquired about the possibility of repair and the company told me no dice!  They offered me a $30 discount on a $400 product.  So, my beef with the goop stuff is, how the hell do you do any repairs?  Wouldn't you need to replace the electrolytic caps down the road? If I just paid my left nut for something, I figure it's my God given right to be able to monkey with it. Here's to special construction (goop)....PHBBBT!

Is the Goo there to keep My Space Ship from vibrating the pedaL apart on my way to the " Outer Limit's " ?
Or is there some Real Secret UNknown to mankind hidden behind all that Stuff ?
Or in all reality is it just Another Shameless Exhibit of someone else tryin to hide the fact he may have ripped off another Brother ?
JD
If I wanted to know which I don't I would flip said pedal over and put the meters to the underside of said board, a cap is a cap, a resistor is a resistor, Goo or no Goo, That is the Question, ?



To Infinity and Beyound !

Quote from: JD
a cap is a cap, a resistor is a resistor

Then what's a transistor?  :wink:

You can get a schematic or layout this way, but getting the accurate parts values would be difficult.

Quote from: Doug HFunny how it turns out one of the staunchest defenders doesn't even own one. :lol: Doug

say ... shouldn't people be "free" to believe in their own dellusion ?

I got a chance to look inside and play an actual Pete Cornish May-Booster sometime around '94 when I bought my AC30 off of Brian Adam's gear hound - the guy who wrote that British guitar rag article on AC30's in '95 ... the inside of the pedal had reddish marbled goop covered over both sides of the board - but you could tell that it was a simple single-stage affair ...

The tech dude who knows all these god dudes, including Pete, told me the booster was more-or-less based on the VOX treble booster circuit - he promissed to get me one for $400 (never did) ... he didn't want to spill the beans but said "try mucking with the input cap" ... so I went home with my prized amplifier and did a little research on the Vox TB pedal and came up with my own version using a selected 2n2429 Germanium device ...  I ended up with pretty much the same fantastic tone I heard at tech's house, plugging into the dark "normal" AC30 channel ... all this on about $4 worth of parts ...

A buddy of mine went nuts when he heard the bombastic perfection of my AC30 - he eventually got hold and rebuilt an old Copper-Top similar to mine after a two year search no less ! ... so I built him a Booster which he dearly loves - I'll post my schematic if anybody wants ...

... jcm~

I'm interested  :D

me tooo  8)

I'd like a copy of that schem as well.  Thanks!

MartyB

That was an almost painful thread to read over there....  :?

On one hand these discussions are so amazingly pointless.

On the other hand.... Answering all the questions posed involves a very complete study of his business and his construction. There is a lot to be learned along that road.

I have a question to our UK contingent: What is income tax like in the UK? I'm relatively certain that sales taxes can be forgotten about because the price list doesn't cover it. Income tax is however part of those prices and it means a lot behind the scenes.

Some points now:

(1) He's probably more of a consultant than a pedal builder. The money is in the consulting. I wouldn't be surprised if pedal building is mainly advertising for him.

(2) If he's not making a living selling pedals, he needs to have pricing that insures he doesn't loose his shirt for the quantity of pedals that he DOES produce.

(3) If wholesale cost is 3X the construction cost and the construction cost is equally composed of parts and work, using high quality parts can make the construction cost jump up 50% which makes the wholesale cost 50% higher. SRP (the price on his site) is 2X wholesale. That means that high quality parts can make a big difference.

Just some arbitrary numbers:
$50 work + $30 parts = $80 const = $240 whole = $480 SRP
$50 work + $50 parts = $100 const = $300 whole = $600 SRP
$50 work + $85 parts = $130 const = $405 whole = $810 SRP

(4) That construction method is just costly. Add the time it takes to fabricate a harness like that (lots of measuring, triming, heat shrinking, ) and the construction cost rises very quickly, mostly in increased labor. I have a lot of history in production building of everything from PCBs to full mechanical systems and some methods just take so much effort that you only see them used where cost isn't much of a factor. I also have several hundred hours logged working on the targeting and guidance systems from some 1960s vintage surface-to-air nuclear missiles and I will say without hesitation that the Cornish build pics I've seen depict the same construction style.

(5) Anybody who thinks they can build a business by competing with highly funded mega conglomerates is either filling a very small niche (in relation to Boss, etc.), or they're smoking something really good and will have a harsh reality to wake up to.

(6) Comparisons of products built under different monetary and regulatory systems can be silly.


I'm more than halfway tempted to make my forecasting tool available that shows how many boxes have to sold to be in the black. It's amazing to me just how hard it is to make a go of doing this professionally. My hat is off to anybody who can pull it off for more than a couple years, or anybody who can do it for a primary business for more than a few months.

Note: I have never owned a Cornish pedal, probably will never own one, I've never listened to any sound samples of them, I don't like his labeling or his "screws in the face plate" asthetics one bit, and I really don't care about the specific instance. The whole lack of understanding of the business side of things in DIY Land is what gets me. :(

Take care,
-Peter

Aron, Pete: that one should go into the archives or better yet: FAQ(if it's not already there)

Quote from: Peter SnowbergI have a question to our UK contingent: What is income tax like in the UK? I'm relatively certain that sales taxes can be forgotten about because the price list doesn't cover it. Income tax is however part of those prices and it means a lot behind the scenes.

Someone in the musictoyz thread did a pretty good job breaking down the pricing with UK taxes, exchange rates and etc. From his analysis it looked like once you took all that into consideration, the prices were pretty reasonable, in the <$200 range IIRC. I also kind of wonder if this may explain the Lovetone pricing as well?

Quote from: Peter Snowberg
The whole lack of understanding of the business side of things in DIY Land is what gets me. :(

Well, the musictoyz forum isn't a DIY group per se. It's mostly just a collection of people who buy stuff from musictoyz. One thing I found interesting about this thread was the number of builders weighing in with their opinions, Barber, Fox, etc... I found it interesting how their attitudes seemed to coincide with the consumers', which in turn paralleled the collective DIY attitude here that "these prices seem at least slightly out of whack".

I don't have much of an opinion about it one way or another. I find the discussion amusing for the most part. On one extreme you have people who are vehemently *offended* by the pricing, and can't understand why any of this stuff costs more than $30 a box. I never understood people being offended by prices. If you can't afford it, it's not for you!  :lol:  At the other end of the spectrum is some poor schmuck who goes on for 5-6 pages about how this is a piece of God's ear itself, only to find out he doesn't even own one, and presumably no experience with it. Who knows where *that* point of view is coming from?? ("I believe everything I read and find that actually makes me *more* of a selective reader." - David St. Hubbins) :lol:  :lol:


Doug

I know this is a little too detailed perhaps but heres a breakdown on the most basic tax figures in the UK.


From http://www.inlandrevenue.gov.uk/rates/index.htm
In UKP

Income tax
Taxable bands 2003-04 (£)
Starting rate 10%  0 - 1 920
Basic rate 22%  1 921 - 29 900
Higher rate 40%  Over 30 500

Which is paid by the employee


For Nation Insurance (Health & Unemployment contributions)
3.5% average

Paid by employee, but employer must match this amount (as I remember).

Company Tax
Small companies’ rate 19
Main rate 30%

Additionally almost eveything sold in the UK also has a 17.5% sales tax, which companys may claim back, though this admin process increases admin costs).

On top of this there is a lot of other 'taxes' such as business rates (paid to the city council for amenitys and services).

All in all it's quite expensive to run a company in the UK.

BTW in the 60's & 70's the high end tax was 95% (listen to Taxman by the Beatlesls (the line "one for you 19 for me" is from the taxmans perspective.)

Standard income tax had been up to about 32% in the 80's, but it has been dropping, and stealth taxes have been introduced instead.

All in all it's expensive to pay employees a decent take home wage in the UK.

Regards,

Rob...[/url]

They might sound great, but you would need an extra large pedal board for those extra large enclosures he uses...

well, i dont know about you boys, but making stompboxes is expensive.
cornish seems to be making them a little tougher than most which i
would presume would make them even pricier, not to mention
that his circuits look to have a high compenent count to them.

i cant afford one of his boxes, but then again if anyone thinks that
they can get the ultimate tone just by buying a pedal then they are
mistaken indeed.  i have a friend who plays through a fender
blues jr. and has an overdrive pedal ( a boss superoverdrive ) ......not much to look at, but when you hear him play you realize real fast that he's got some chops and makes that little tube amp really sing.
i remember doing a show and we had him sit in with us on this
particular gig.  i had brought his gear to the show because he
wasnt able to get there during soundcheck.  all of the guys who
worked for the p.a. company was laughing at his setup, but
when he got there, the laughing stopped real quick.  after the show
they were all remarking about how good his little setup sounded.

all of this to say that if it aint happening with the player, than chances
are a fuzz box isnt going to help either.  :D

Quote from: KilbyAdditionally almost eveything sold in the UK also has a 17.5% sales tax, which companys may claim back, though this admin process increases admin costs).

'VAT' (value added tax) is the killer.  17.5% is the rate and it’s only reclaimable on 'raw materials', when you come to sell your product you have to slap an additional 17.5% on top of the final figure.  Although the customer pays this tax, it's the manufacturer who, ultimately, pays it to the tax man.

If you do the sums it can add quite a bit to the final price!

If you were in his shoes, dealing with relatively wealthy clients (and enjoying a reputation as a result of who you rub shoulders with), wouldn’t you push up the price a bit in order to have a decent standard of living?  

Anyone here would be an idiot to pay the sort of prices he’s asking for, but do we really need his designs?  I don’t know about you lot, but I’ve got enough schematics/ideas in the pipeline to keep me going well into my old age!

Quote from: caseyi have a friend who plays through a fender
blues jr. and has an overdrive pedal ( a boss superoverdrive ) ......not much to look at, but when you hear him play you realize real fast that he's got some chops and makes that little tube amp really sing.

A Fender Blues Jr. and a Boss SD-1 is probably all anyone needs. That's a great sounding rig. If you can't make it happen with that, then it ain't gonna happen at all.

Regards

RDV

I don't know about you guys but I use "special construction" techniques when I build my pedals as well~!!
So special are my techniques that a lot of times my effects don't even work. When I start selling my effects how much should I charge extra for that??  :lol:

 I say let the builder charge what he wants and if it's worth it people will buy it. If not then he will have a ,lot of effects left laying around.

 Mike N.

I totally agree with you Mike.

If he can charge that then great, I'm happy for him. I'm sure that first of every pedal he sells has been designed at the request of some name guitarist or another. Will he make money on the couple he builds for that player, I doubt it ! It may help him land a order for 'normal equipment' because he has been obliging (but he can't count on that). He probably sells the few that he makes to recoup the cost of building / designing / researching the first one, and remember he can't afford to build a crap pedal as it will screw his reputation.

If it enables a player to earn his living then 300 or so UKP is a damn bargin (Jeez how much do I spend on computer equipment per year to do exactly the same thing).

After all how many Porche, Ferrari, TVR etc drivers can really drive, hmm a couple of percent at best. If you live in a city then you seldom get to try and drive it as it's supposed to. Yeah it may be a waste, but if it makes you happy who am I to complain ;)

On seeing Gilmour on the first or second gig "about face tour" where he used a small percentage of the Floyd PA in a 700 seater hall. All I can say is sound quality is King where Mr Gilmour is concerned, and Cornish knows his trade.

No I won't be buying one, it would be a waste, but then the DD6 I bought was expensive enough and it's a standard mass produced item.

Rob...

I'd still kind of like to hear what "Imminent Amp Death" sounds like!

Regards

RDV

I based my opinion of Pete's pedals on my bad experience with goop.  I took a look at his website and figure they're great for those who can afford them--David Gilmore doesn't wan't to worry about his equipment, so he has Pete take care of it all (I'm sure to Dave that $10k is nothing but a flea's fart).  Pete must be doing it right, because his clients have $$$, so he charges those prices because he can (reputation is everything).  I should aspire to making my pedals that neat, just without the goop.  
Are those Jameco boxes that he uses?  What about his argument against true-bypass?  I guess that one could argue that a custom chopper is just a tricked-out Harley with an $80,000 price tag, but if I had the money....

Quote from: RDV
A Fender Blues Jr. and a Boss SD-1 is probably all anyone needs. That's a great sounding rig. If you can't make it happen with that, then it ain't gonna happen at all.

I somehow don't see the guys in Metallica nodding in agreement to this one :wink: . I really wish a Blues Jr. and a Boss anything did the trick for me. Would make life MUCH simpler. Maybe nice for bedroom gigs, but would just not cut it in the clubs I play ( at least with my drummer :lol: ) I need both loud AND clean. I wish the whole *set amp clean, use pedals for distortion* thing worked for me too. I'd consider dropping a lot of money on a pedal if it did.  Just never heard a pedal that could match the dirty channel of my Quiana with maybe a Rangemaster or Mosfet boost in front. As far as the Pete Cornish stuff, if music/gigging is your main source of income, the prices make a lot more sense.

Kerry M

Is Pete ripping folks off?  Why hell yes!  But they are letting him!  You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink!  I made a response to a Cornish thread months ago here and I'll say it again.  In this day and age it is a sellers market cause nobody wants to put the time and effort into learning how to play like God so they dream some $500 dollar pedal will take them to stardom.  So if Pete can get the lazy bums to buy his pedals then so be it!  And let's some of us here develop a little common sense for the love of God!  Do you actually think David Gilmour is paying Pete for them pedals?  Hell no!  Pete get's plenty and I mean plenty a good Advertisement by being able to slap celebrities names on his website and wherever.  You know you have to pay for endorsments last time I heard.  I seriously doubt any of them fellers are paying for his pedals.  I also promise you they have pedals custom tuned to the rest of their setup.  As for the Musictoyz thread the funny thing is that the last time I heard is that

Eric Claptons most famous tone came from a Vox wah and 100 Watt Marshals and various old fuzz pedals.

Jimmy Pages most famous tone came from Teles, 59 LPs, Supro amp, Marshall amp and Tonebender pedals and various wahs and echo plex

Angus Young SG and Marshall amp!  Maybe his brother uses one now?  But I bet you there ain't a Cornish pedal anywhere on Who Made Who!

Tony Iommi  According to Ammscray is using other pedals and I've read of many different types of boosts he has used over the years.  Ain't no Cornish pedal on the original recordings of Iron Man and Wizard and sweet Leaf.  Oh maybe he is talking about the New Sabbath stuff.  Yuk!

The Moody Blues!?  Every musician I know couldn't tell me diddly about Moody Blues guitar tone.  Most everyone I know when asked what do you know about the Moody Blues and there sound, the first word that pops out of their mouth is Mellotron!

I don't know but I can say is that all the beautiful guitar tones I have come to know and loves through the years didn't come from the use a one of Pete Cornish arm and a leg pedals he selling now.  So I have no desire to own one.  Still to many vintage UK trannys to buy to make an authentic copy of the pedals responsible for the tone that made the world stop between 64 and 72 and capture our hearts and ears forever  Cornish can put that in his pipe and smoke it!

Opinions are like Assholes everyone has one and I know mine usually stink!  But then the truth always stinks.

Quote from: bwanasonic

Quote from: RDV
A Fender Blues Jr. and a Boss SD-1 is probably all anyone needs. That's a great sounding rig. If you can't make it happen with that, then it ain't gonna happen at all.

I somehow don't see the guys in Metallica nodding in agreement to this one :wink: . I really wish a Blues Jr. and a Boss anything did the trick for me. Would make life MUCH simpler. Maybe nice for bedroom gigs, but would just not cut it in the clubs I play ( at least with my drummer :lol: ) I need both loud AND clean. I wish the whole *set amp clean, use pedals for distortion* thing worked for me too. I'd consider dropping a lot of money on a pedal if it did.  Just never heard a pedal that could match the dirty channel of my Quiana with maybe a Rangemaster or Mosfet boost in front. As far as the Pete Cornish stuff, if music/gigging is your main source of income, the prices make a lot more sense.

Kerry M

What. You ain't got no P.A.? Or monitors? I use a Marshall Half stack and a pile of pedals to do what I do. That said; the best player I've ever played with in my life(20+ years of paying gigs) got it done with a small 40 watt combo with one 12" speaker with no pedals. I love effects. I love big amps. But what you're playing through doesn't matter if you're a monster player(which I'm not claiming to be). Also, I don't think Metalica type music was what was being refered to, I believe it was blues or roots rock. I'm also sick of drummers that play too goddamn loud, whats that got to do with music? Ain't they ever heard of the word "blend", how about "groove", or "feel"?

Morning rant over & out

Regards

RDV

yeah, we definitely were not doing metallica type music.
i guess my point in all of that was exactly what RDV was
saying about a good player not needing all of the extra stuff.
the funny thing is, is that this guy could afford the best,
but that's his chosen rig.

I emailed Pete Cornish Pedals, just to see if they would reply about the goo, and actually had Pete reply back (I didn't expect that).  He said that the coating protected the copper on the PCB and the components from corrosion, the coating is solvent-proof, and that he has methods of being able to do repairs--despite the coating being solvent-proof.  He also said that since using the coating, it has improved the reliability of his pedals immensely.  He didn't say, however, just what exactly the coating was.  He also pointed out that it was important that the flux was completely cleaned off (obvious to me) before applying the coating.
Maybe its just that rubber stuff that you dip tool handles in--it comes in red.