DIYstompboxes.com

*ducks as everyone throws rotten vegetables*

:D

Are Way Huge schematics fair game now?  They're not made anymore and expensive as hell - doesn't that fit the DIY catagory perfectly?  I know Jack Orman is making clones (I don't know if he has permission or not - I assume he probably does) so I was wondering if it'd be alright to ask for schematics.  I'm not all that interested in building them, I might build one or two if I can get my hands on the schemes, but I'm more interested in seeing how they work.

Thanks, and I don't mean to start a whole thread on ethics.

Mike

*crowling in from the neighbouring entrenchmet

Yeah, how about sharing the fun and knowledge?

It's good carma, y'know... :D

it's pretty well known that some of the way huge designs are tweaks on something we already know and love - TS-9, fuzz face, bmp, apparently the red llama is an anderton fuzz of some kind?  i forget.

i'd eat my shorts to get a swollen pickle to pull apart tho.  :P

QuoteI know Jack Orman is making clones

Not me...  I don't have a single Way Huge schematic!   Anyone got some to share?   :D  :D

regards, Jack

Must have been someone else.  Sorry for the mixup.  :)

I'm sure the swollen pickle is pretty simple... perchance I can find someone who owns it on the HC forums and get them to take a few pictures of the innards.

-Colin

I can offer pics of a newly purchased HIWATT wah wah 8)
Opamps only and buch better sounding than inductor!
Variable Q control too!

Sooooooooooooooooooooooo!  No one really answered the question of whether or not posting detailed pics and schematics of Way Huge pedals is open game or what?  All I've seen is alot of wishing but no answers to the big question.  Maybe when some hard solid answers start appearing and less wishing, those pics and schematics may start appearing in some of you guys with webpages, email to throw on your site.     :wink:

Has anyone emailed the guy and asked?  I mean come on!  If he is not gonna make the pedals anymore please share his ideas with the rest of the world.   I hate these for money pedal builders sometimes.  They take but don't give.  You don't think one of them suckers is gonna jump on that piggybacking tranny idea soon and use it?  But they sure as heck won't share any of their ideas with us.   I know quite a few folks with WH pedals that would let me borrow their pedal for a while and I know one insane pedal repair guy with his "secret notebook"  that has tons of schems for WH and many other pedals.  He'd let me have any schem I want.  So let me ask this is WH pics and schems like music sharing?  You know can you share WH stuff to "friends" and such?  As long as your not making money off the material?

Is it Okay to Clone? (http://www.muzique.com/clones.htm)

I would like to peek in the secret notebook!  :D  :D

regards, Jack

Peeking is goooooooood!  :D

Quote from: Constantin NecrasovI can offer pics of a newly purchased HIWATT wah wah 8)
Opamps only and buch better sounding than inductor!
Variable Q control too!

R.G. Keen has an excellent write-up on his site about how graphic and parametric EQs work. In it, he describes how to build a gyrator circuit with op amps. This behaves like an inductor and is a basic building block of many active EQ circuits. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine this idea being applied to an inductor-less wah.  In fact, I think R.G. has a schem for one of those as well, but it's been a while since I looked...

Just a side editorial comment: I wish there was as much energy expended searching for knowledge as there was searching for schematics on here. Now that Jay's challenge has slipped into the nether world and the excitement of the piggybacking has died down, it looks like the interest is going back to cloning again. Ho-hum... Oh well, I guess I'm just missing the old days...

(This was intended as a general comment on the forum, not a response to your post, Constantin. Just trying to shed a little light on what may be in your wah and use that as a seque to get on my soapbox. :D )

Doug

Quote from: Doug HJust a side editorial comment: I wish there was as much energy expended searching for knowledge as there was searching for schematics on here. Now that Jay's challenge has slipped into the nether world and the excitement of the piggybacking has died down, it looks like the interest is going back to cloning again. Ho-hum... Oh well, I guess I'm just missing the old days...

(This was intended as a general comment on the forum, not a response to your post, Constantin. Just trying to shed a little light on what may be in your wah and use that as a seque to get on my soapbox. :D )

Doug

I took on Jay's challenge and built a killer-diller OD based the Peppermill. I'm using it every night I play. It sounds especially good with my P-90 equipped Les Paul Jr. Special! I'm with you on this. I get bored very easy, & I'm looking forward to coming up with something new. I really want to build something time-based next, like a chorus, or maybe a phase shift like the uni-vibe sounding Phase45 thingy.

Regards

RDV

Quote from: amz-fxIs it Okay to Clone? (http://www.muzique.com/clones.htm)

I would like to peek in the secret notebook!  :D  :D

regards, Jack

I'm surprised that the Beano anti-gas company has not gotten involved in this!

Regards

RDV

I’ve posted before about Way Huge Electronics schematics, but here it goes again.
I don’t give out Way Huge schematics, period (I never have and never will). That’s my choice. Just because Way Huge is not building pedals any more doesn’t mean that the information is not valuable and should be given out freely. Furthermore, I just don’t give out Way Huge Electronics intellectual property. Any Way Huge IP that has been given out was done under an NDA. Information isn’t always free.  Now when some of you DIY’er go into business building pedals for a living you may change your mind about sharing all your knowledge and information.

However, I don’t have a problem with anyone reverse engineering a Way Huge pedal drawing a schematic and posting it. That is perfectly legal (I should know I have a lawyer in my house). I’m just not going to hand it to you on a platter. The Internet didn’t have all these helpful sites on pedal building and schematics when I started. I learned the old fashioned way. I reverse engineered pedals, I became friends with repair guys and techs that built pedals for large companies, and I read a lot of books!
Anyways, I have my reasons for not giving out Way Huge schematics and that’s that. I’m more than happy to help people with their DIY projects and I have many times in the past.
I’ve posted a number of highly prized schematics from my gigantic pedal schematic archive (Roland Phase 5, Jetphaser, TC Distortion, etc…)
Here’s a picture of the inside of an old Swollen Pickle.(http://www.wayhuge.com/PCBpickle.jpg)

Cheers,
-Jeorge

Well, whatever floats your boat. I'm not going to argue with you or tell you that you're "mean" for not giving us the schematic, because it's totally your choice.  Thanks for the picture! :)

-Colin

I do understand that....

Quote from: Mr.HugeI’ve posted before about Way Huge Electronics schematics, but here it goes again.
I don’t give out Way Huge schematics, period (I never have and never will). That’s my choice. Just because Way Huge is not building pedals any more doesn’t mean that the information is not valuable and should be given out freely. Furthermore, I just don’t give out Way Huge Electronics intellectual property. Any Way Huge IP that has been given out was done under an NDA. Information isn’t always free.  Now when some of you DIY’er go into business building pedals for a living you may change your mind about sharing all your knowledge and information.

However, I don’t have a problem with anyone reverse engineering a Way Huge pedal drawing a schematic and posting it. That is perfectly legal (I should know I have a lawyer in my house). I’m just not going to hand it to you on a platter. The Internet didn’t have all these helpful sites on pedal building and schematics when I started. I learned the old fashioned way. I reverse engineered pedals, I became friends with repair guys and techs that built pedals for large companies, and I read a lot of books!
Anyways, I have my reasons for not giving out Way Huge schematics and that’s that. I’m more than happy to help people with their DIY projects and I have many times in the past.
I’ve posted a number of highly prized schematics from my gigantic pedal schematic archive (Roland Phase 5, Jetphaser, TC Distortion, etc…)
Here’s a picture of the inside of an old Swollen Pickle.(http://www.wayhuge.com/PCBpickle.jpg)

Cheers,
-Jeorge

(Applauds at the Man  8) )

lol!  is that a hex inverter or a quad opamp...  :P

i have a friend who has one and he offered a few times to lend it to me, but i'd rather get there on my own steam aye.

Wow... finally a policy that makes a shred of sense!  I think that's the way you have to play it if you're in the fx business: 1) no schematics given 2) if you figure it out on your own, godspeed, and 3) glad to help with something unrelated to Way Huge designs.

Thanks Jeorge...  I'm curious...  Are you still at Line6?  If so, what are you working on there?  

-alan

oh!  btw man, i fell in love with the swollen pickle in '98 and to this day haven't met a pedal i've liked more.  even mine.  well done.  :D  the thing i remember the most is trying to find a place where i didn't like the sound of the tone knob, and failing.  :P

what's the general topology?  it does sound quite BMP, i'd always suspected it was a tweaked out bmp actually.  but clearly it's not.

Ha!! So who on this panel is gonna fork over the Mega$$$$ to those pedal weasels over on eBay(ne-of-my existance) for a pickle so my ass can have a schematic?

F - it

RDV

come onnnn the back too the back tooo!!!!

:-D :-D :-D

Thanks for the lesson that legality beats ethics :-D

j.k. that sounds mean too.  Don't take anything I say to seriously right now, I'm in a mean kinda mood.  

Oh and that thing about "peaking into the notebook" totally reminded me of Willy Wonka, and I just had to share that.

Peace

Quote from: Doug HJust a side editorial comment: I wish there was as much energy expended searching for knowledge as there was searching for schematics on here. Now that Jay's challenge has slipped into the nether world and the excitement of the piggybacking has died down, it looks like the interest is going back to cloning again. Ho-hum... Oh well, I guess I'm just missing the old days...

(This was intended as a general comment on the forum, not a response to your post, Constantin. Just trying to shed a little light on what may be in your wah and use that as a seque to get on my soapbox. :D )

Doug

Respectful Doug,

I am sorry for giving and impression of a cat about to be killed by own curiosity, but still...

"All men by nature desire to know..." [Aristotle, Metaphysics book I], and it's hard to fight this terrible urge...

I am still learning, moved into the area of tube amplifiers and successfully modded my old Fender as well as build two push pull amps for my home stereo (from scratch, no schematic). I hope this cleares me from not-so-positive impression.

With Way Huge it's just a matter of curiosity. :)  And since I have no electronic background whatsoever I agree to the fate of a child that wonders into the movie theatre and starts asking questions about what has been on screen for the previous half hour (pardon the metaphor). :oops:

Let me ask this in my terms that a good old boy like myself can understand.  How many changes would I have to make to a schematic I "found" of say some famous super expensive pedal to be able to freely throw it out on the web? Just change a resistor? A cap?  I mean isn't that what WH and basically everyone else has done?  They all got there ideas from some other circuit they have seen somewhere else.  I mean none of us were born knowing how to build effects and audio circuits.  We "all" take someone else's idea and improve on it or change to it to sound better with our particular setup or a friends.  Say fir instance I have a dubbie gangle popper made and designed by Jimmy Pimplepeg.  Ok this pedal is intellectual property of ol Jimbo etc. etc..  It sounds awsome with my best buds Marshall amp but it is seriously lacking in it's performance with my Twin Reverb.  Say I know a little something bout pedals and I find that if I change the output cap value and put a trim pot or two in the place of some of the resistors to fine tune to your particular amp then it sounds awsome with my Twin reverb.  Are you saying I can't post a schematic and instructions of what I've come up with to share with the rest of the Twin Reverb community?   :twisted:

Quote from: afranks

Thanks Jeorge...  I'm curious...  Are you still at Line6?  If so, what are you working on there?  

-alan

Yes, I'm still at Line 6 and if I told you what I was working on I'd have to kill you. Sorry... Top Secret. I will be haunting the halls at NAMM this week.

And no it's not a 4049.
-Huge

Quote from: BluesgeetarHow many changes would I have to make to a schematic I "found" of say some famous super expensive pedal to be able to freely throw it out on the web? Just change a resistor? A cap?  I mean isn't that what WH and basically everyone else has done?  They all got there ideas from some other circuit they have seen somewhere else.  :twisted:

Okay, the Pickle circuit is not patented. So, drawing your own schematic and posting it for free is perfectly legal. This is true with any circuit patented or not, as long as you do not receive money or financial gain from doing so.

However, a US trademark protects the Way Huge brand name and all individual pedal names encompassed under it. Meaning you can’t use the names or anything that is reasonably similar to them on any equipment within the music industry.

-Huge

Thank you very much for the info Mr. Huge.  I'll will obey the route you have advised.  I just wanted to share great circuits whether they are mine or not, not make profit.  So I can throw any effect circuit on the web from any pedal as long as I draw it and state something like, "Hey guys here is a cool effect circuit!  Try it!"  And that's it.  Am I right so far?  I just can't tell where the circuit came from or what it is of if it is a ZVEX or WH pedal or whatever and I can't claim it as my own original pedal design.  

That seems kind of cold!  I mean just consider this scenario.  I draw out a schem of a WH pedal I have.  I post it on the web freely.  All I say is, "Hey guys here is a cool effect circuit!  Try it!"  and everyone loves the holy shit out of the pedal and it is the new rave and talk on the DIY forums.  Wouldn't you want everyone to know that the schem I drew is of one of your designs and not some strange unknown schematic that just showed up on the web.  I mean I'm just talking about giving you credit for your ingenious design not trademark violation.

Jeorge, thank's for being realistic and honest about this issue- there should be more of it.  Thanks for sharing those prized schematics too.....

Judging from his posts, Mr Huge is a scholar, a gentleman, and a realist. That's not a bad triple...

We should ask him about that "Camel Toe" that showed up on eBay a couple of months ago. Prototype? Production? Recent?

Regards

RDV

Jeorge is a good guy in my book...

the aforementioned Jet Phaser schem was for me initially (I had a dead one, which works wonderfully now - thanks Jeorge!!) and he bailed me out in a big way.. in the true spirit of the net community.

The Way Huge stuff was great because it was tweaked right, and built REALLY well - but now it's gone..   which is a shame.. but hey - you can't get a Rangemaster anymore either..  

love them as rare and vintage, remember it fondly, and lets get to building the next great pedal.

Go forth and DIY, gentlemen!
"-)

Quote from: RDVWe should ask him about that "Camel Toe" that showed up on eBay a couple of months ago. Prototype? Production? Recent?RDV

The Camel Toe was the very short-lived production version of the Dual Overdrive. I think we made 25 Camel Toe and about 8 or 9 custom hand painted Dual Overdrives.
What they were… a Green Rhino and a Red Llama in one box.
I saw that CT on Ebay… $1K! That’s some bread for a pedal. I sold about 10 of the CT’s to Make’n Music in Chicago.
-Huge

Quote from: Bluesgeetar
That seems kind of cold!  I mean just consider this scenario.  I draw out a schem of a WH pedal I have.  I post it on the web freely.  All I say is, "Hey guys here is a cool effect circuit!  Try it!"  and everyone loves the holy shit out of the pedal and it is the new rave and talk on the DIY forums.  Wouldn't you want everyone to know that the schem I drew is of one of your designs and not some strange unknown schematic that just showed up on the web.  I mean I'm just talking about giving you credit for your ingenious design not trademark violation.

Here’s an example: http://www.wayhuge.com/zzz_dirtbox.pdf
-Huge

Quote from: RDVHa!! So who on this panel is gonna fork over the Mega$$$$ to those pedal weasels over on eBay(ne-of-my existance) for a pickle so my ass can have a schematic?

F - it

RDV

as i said before i will throw in, if anyone else will.

Quote from: Mr.Huge
Here’s an example: http://www.wayhuge.com/zzz_dirtbox.pdf
-Huge

Ibanez OD-II

Thanks Mr. Huge

RDV

Jeorge said:

QuoteThe Internet didn’t have all these helpful sites on pedal building and schematics when I started. I learned the old fashioned way. I reverse engineered pedals, I became friends with repair guys and techs that built pedals for large companies, and I read a lot of books!

I've realized for a while now, that my site has really done a disservice to the DIY community in this respect.  My good intentions to share the  layouts I drew up have led to some laziness in the community.  Maybe even bringing in people that should never have been here, "mud wrestling a pig" so to speak.  But, there is some good to be gotten for those who really are into DIY, cloning is not always evil.  Shoot, I think even Doug has shown some interest in "production models" of some sort in the past...no?  But I do understand Doug's point, the forum is always a lot more fun when there is lively discussion about building something different or what tweaks to do.

Oh well, life goes on.

JD

I'm glad to say that I completely disagree with you, JD!
Your site, as well as Tonepad, AMZ, Geofex and many other, didn't drew laziness among us.
Due to these sites, I discovered again my interest in electronics, so I took back again a hot iron in my hand.
About 6 months ago, I've found this community, so I begun to build stompboxes taken from the sites listed before. IT was a very passive behavior, I know: I just build and don't think.
Then I got a little more curious, so I've learned how to read carefully schmatic, and I've learned how to understend how all components really work in a circuit.
But I soon realized that it was not enough for me, so I've learned how to draw PCB from schematic. The first PCB I've drawn was the Slow Gear (not simple one!!!) and I was really happy when I saw it working.

I believe that I've got a log way to run. Everyone hear are making small steps ahead, which, soon or later, will give small contributes to our community.
I believe that I'm not ready for making something new. I'm still learning how things work, like many of us, I presume.
And all started from site like yours, JD, FP, and all of you!

Quote from: jsleep
I've realized for a while now, that my site has really done a disservice to the DIY community in this respect.  JD

I can't agree with that!
As a very small scale manufacturer I meet a lot of musicians who once tried to DIY & gave up. The reason often is, that they were working from circuits (often ones published in 'major' magazines and even books) that had errors. Nothing destroys the confidence of a beginner faster. Thanks to your site, beginners now can have confidence that at least the circuit is right! And thanks to this board, they can get useful assistance. As for laziness... if people want a clone, well, no matter how energetic they are, that is all they will build! If people are wanting to push the envelope, the first thing they must do as a beginner is to get some easy clones going & then they can start developing their own ideas. JD, you've helped me, and you've helped hundreds on the board!

JD, I have to say that I disagree with you too. Your site got me interested in this. Tonepad furthered my interest. Through this paint by number approach I have been encouraged to learn more about electronics, why things work like they do.
I think its similar to the way I learned how to play guitar. At first I just imitated others. I learned thier licks, remember the tapes "Star Licks". Every lead I played was nothing more than a compilation of other peoples stuff. but eventually I began to develop my own style. I haven't reached that stage yet in pedal building. I'm not yet at the point of designing my own pedal. But I am at the point of being able to see a schematic and do my own PCB layout. I am at the point of figuring out my own mods (to the easier things). So I'm growing and it was through your site that I got started. In otherwords, I think sites like yours are absolutely essential. You probably don't have any idea how much it means to so many of us. So thank you for all your hard work.

Also, thank you Aron for this site that gives us a place to ask all those questions that come up when we begin building. I'll never forget my first pedal that I built from JD's site. The Boutique Fuzz Face, what a nightmare! A million questions that were all answered so patiently and thoroughly. Thanks RG, Mark Hammer, Rob Strand (wherever you are) and all the others who helped. Now I've progressed, my latest pedals have been the EZ Vibe, A small clone, a small stone and an MXR envelope filter. All jam packed with mods! :D

Sorry for the rambling, but every once in awhile it is necessary to say thanks.

Bill

Not to reiterate the above too much, but I think the problem may not lie in sites like GGG/Tonepad, but in finding ways to take "the next step". I'm getting to the point where just building other people's designs / layouts is starting to get a little old, but I can definitely see there's a learning curve plateau here I need to figure out how to get across.

In any case, perhaps it's a bit like college: tons of people go to college, many many fewer make it to grad school. I don't think Tonepad or GGG is responsible or at fault for people who "just want to build stuff", which I think is respectable in its own right.

We also have to remember that there is ALOT of learning associated with trying to build your own pedal.  

We jumped in to make pedals (designed by others) when we probably were not at the right stage with our soldering / electronic skills.. whats stopping us from jumping into design the same way ?

Also.. we don't have to start from scratch.. there are plenty of simple circuits we can gleam off of.. and the simple mods page has alot of info.

Chris

I've realized for a while now, that my site has really done a disservice to the DIY community in this respect.  My good intentions to share the  layouts I drew up have led to some laziness in the community.  Maybe even bringing in people that should never have been here, "mud wrestling a pig" so to speak.  But, there is some good to be gotten for those who really are into DIY, cloning is not always evil.  Shoot, I think even Doug has shown some interest in "production models" of some sort in the past...no?  But I do understand Doug's point, the forum is always a lot more fun when there is lively discussion about building something different or what tweaks to do.

Oh well, life goes on.

JD[/quote]



Wow,wow hold on there,I couldn't disagree more,people that shouldn't be here?,and how do you dictate that?,everybody has to start somehwere.
Now that was spoken trully form the perspective of someone that knows something that others don't.
I think that pople that loose interest will just fall by the wayside by themselves.
I have brough forth a couple of designs and specifically asked the comunity(meanning this forum) to help develop it cause first I don't have the chops and second because I thought that a true comunal effort would be the beginning os what so many here think should be the true nature of the beast,stop clonning and start designing something different albeit just another shade of distortion,but hey.....
Nobody cared,not the newbbies nor the gurus.
MAybe somebody should've told me that the idea was shite,I would've preffered that.The only one that showed interest was Fp that made a cad drawing of the idea.
In other words,it is easier to clone but this is after all a DIY forum not an inventors forum.
I say clone away,anybody,I don't care who.Now if later that person starts selling those pedals pretending it's their design,I see that as wrong.

Whay don't we set up a place where people submitt ideas and a bunch of the gurus choose a project for development as a comunity into which all can input ideas.Somebody builds a proto,records a sample and we all further tweak it,much like the Ax84 guys?.
Aharon

I've realized for a while now, that my site has really done a disservice to the DIY community in this respect.  My good intentions to share the  layouts I drew up have led to some laziness in the community.  Maybe even bringing in people that should never have been here, "mud wrestling a pig" so to speak.  But, there is some good to be gotten for those who really are into DIY, cloning is not always evil.  Shoot, I think even Doug has shown some interest in "production models" of some sort in the past...no?  But I do understand Doug's point, the forum is always a lot more fun when there is lively discussion about building something different or what tweaks to do.

Oh well, life goes on.

JD[/quote]



Wow,wow hold on there,I couldn't disagree more,people that shouldn't be here?,and how do you dictate that?,everybody has to start somehwere.
Now that was spoken trully form the perspective of someone that knows something that others don't.
I think that pople that loose interest will just fall by the wayside by themselves.
I have brough forth a couple of designs and specifically asked the comunity(meanning this forum) to help develop it cause first I don't have the chops and second because I thought that a true comunal effort would be the beginning os what so many here think should be the true nature of the beast,stop clonning and start designing something different albeit just another shade of distortion,but hey.....
Nobody cared,not the newbbies nor the gurus.
MAybe somebody should've told me that the idea was shite,I would've preffered that.The only one that showed interest was Fp that made a cad drawing of the idea.
In other words,it is easier to clone but this is after all a DIY forum not an inventors forum.
I say clone away,anybody,I don't care who.Now if later that person starts selling those pedals pretending it's their design,I see that as wrong.

Whay don't we set up a place where people submitt ideas and a bunch of the gurus choose a project for development as a comunity into which all can input ideas.Somebody builds a proto,records a sample and we all further tweak it,much like the Ax84 guys?.
Aharon

Quote from: jsleep

I've realized for a while now, that my site has really done a disservice to the DIY community in this respect.  My good intentions to share the  layouts I drew up have led to some laziness in the community.  Maybe even bringing in people that should never have been here, "mud wrestling a pig" so to speak.  But, there is some good to be gotten for those who really are into DIY, cloning is not always evil.  Shoot, I think even Doug has shown some interest in "production models" of some sort in the past...no?  But I do understand Doug's point, the forum is always a lot more fun when there is lively discussion about building something different or what tweaks to do.

Oh well, life goes on.

JD

JD, there is no way I would ever consider your site as "doing a disservice to the DIY community". No way. Not at all. On the contrary it has been a major inspiration to a large number of people to get involved in DIY, myself included. And if your site is a disservice mine is too. After all, I just put up a few schematics. I don't have any of the "how-to" design info that R.G., Jack, Aron, and others have put up.

We all learn and have learned from looking at established schematics. I don't feel that cloning is evil. It is a necessary part of the learning process.  My comments were based on how I felt the wind was blowing on a particular day here, nothing more and nothing less. I don't want anyone to take them too seriously.

When people want a schem for circuit X it's usually for 1 of 3 reasons: 1) They have one they need to repair, 2) They are curious about what's inside, what makes it "tick", what makes it better than something else that may be similar, or 3) They are put off by the high prices they demand, can't afford it, always wanted one and want to build one for themselves. All three of these reasons are valid as far as I'm concerned.

Sometimes it seems like there is more emphasis on 3) here, however. That concerns me a little because I don't want people to miss out on the rush of tweaking something for themself and eventually rolling their own.  I also don't want them to miss out on the even bigger rush of learning some of the concepts behind these ideas and applying them themselves. Once you start doing that, you can do just about anything.

Any of these schems, mine included, are just starting points to finding your sound, AFAIC. When we over-emphasize our love for "circuit X with the pink polka-dot cover that was manufactured before 1975 with the authentic Z29 discombobulator" we may be limiting our thought processes in a way to limit our potential to consider other methods and newer ideas. (Sorry for such a long sentence...) And this is just a big gray area AFAIC. There is no specific case that comes to mind, it's just generally where I feel the emphasis is at times that bugs me a little.

Doug

Thanks for the kind words everyone.  If I had it to do all over again...I'd still do exactly the same thing I've done.  I just wanted to post my take on thoughts I've had in line, I think, with some of the thoughts that Doug H has.  I think the GEOFEX site is a very fine example of how to help the community without spoon feeding.

Paul,

Thanks for all the contributions you've made here and to my site!

Samuel,

I'm going to try to work on some things on my site to encourge more delving into experimenting and creating.  Thanks for the encouragement.


Aharan,

Yeah, the pig statement was a bit unwise of me.  I'm just trying to say that I do know of at least a couple guys that came down this path, blew a lot of money before they discovered that they weren't ready or just not cut out for the world of DIY.  I know that's not my fault, I should not have inferred that.

JD

JD,I don't want you to take me wrong,maybe the way I took what you were trying to say.I've "known" you from the forum from way back and I know you did not mean any harm.
I think you are right,maybe we should have a chapter on how to ease into DIY without blowing your whole wad from the start without even knowing if you are cut out for it etc.
I was lucky,my transition was easy and painless and I owe this hobby to people like you ,Francisco,Aron,RG,Doug and a few others.

I have been participating a lot less lately,some of it has to do with me going more into the tube amp side of things,another reason is that (you are right here)painting by numbers got to be sort of (gasp) boring.
I guess I have to get that breadboard out and resurect a couple of my ideas and see if i can contribute something new,all in all I think that was what you meant in the first place.
Respectfully
Aharon

Quote from: Aharon

I have brough forth a couple of designs and specifically asked the comunity(meanning this forum) to help develop it cause first I don't have the chops and second because I thought that a true comunal effort would be the beginning os what so many here think should be the true nature of the beast,stop clonning and start designing something different albeit just another shade of distortion,but hey.....
Nobody cared,not the newbbies nor the gurus.

Whay don't we set up a place where people submitt ideas and a bunch of the gurus choose a project for development as a comunity into which all can input ideas.Somebody builds a proto,records a sample and we all further tweak it,much like the Ax84 guys?.
Aharon

The biggest issue here is time. Everyone is on there own little trip and they generally don't have time to get involved in a totally communal effort. The way I have seen the communal effort work best is when people come up with ideas, bounce them off each other, and then everyone applies them to their own thing.

Even at ax84, most of the newest projects are one man shows. The Taz-Tweed is an example. Someone designs an amp and if everyone in the community likes it and feels it is unique enough, it gets posted as one of the "official" ax84 projects. So in that sense, there's really not a communal design happening.

At the same time, however, there are all kinds of cool ideas coming up all the time. Things like the combination fixed/cathode biasing using zeners, or the nfb-based gain control in the P2 get applied all over the place in people's personal projects. I see that kind of cross-pollination of ideas going on continuously, and it happens here as well.

Doug

Not to pile it on, JD.. but I have to say 'nay'..
your site (as well as this one, Tonepad, etc) are a GREAT service to the DIY community..

I downloaded some schematics from Leper's years ago.. and tried to build a Big Muff.. and failed.. and gave up.

If it wasn't for this site (and yours, etc).. I'd have never tried again.  Now - I'm learning, but I'm nowhere NEAR at the point where I could design my own stuff (though maybe tweak an existing design... a little).. I'm still going through the build/clone/tweak phase...  Eventually, I'd like to create my own designs, but not until I have a much more thorough knowledge of circuit design.. which I'm gaining by cloning/building/tweaking with the help of sites like yours.

Never forget where we all started.. gotta walk before you can run.
"-)

I started when I was bored (laptop was out for repairs), so I got behind the old shitty PC and typed in something like "guitar effects" on google, and found GGG. :D JD you set me off man ;)

I've learnt LOADS since I started out, I now know what a resistor does and a cap, and I'm a hot item right now in physics class as we're doing electricity now :twisted: But to the point: I think the Interweb is a huge resource for beginners. As mentioned before, people who lose interest will drop off themselves. I enjoyed the electronics/stompbox building community and I was allready into guitar effects so I stuck around. And here I am today ;)

Doug and Aharan,

I've yet to see any really fun Forum threads that weren't just spontaneous flings that hit the wind just right  :D  , even on AX84.

BTW, this whole thread made me think back a while ago there was a thread started by Aron I think, it was something about posting corrections  and information about schematics that are on the net.  There seemed to be a lot of people on the forum at that time that didn't really care.  This is know as "the good old days".  Back then, not so many people concerned about just taking a schematic and building a clone.  It was part of the fun and learning experience to try to figure out what's wrong with the stinkin' factory schematic!  Of course back in the old days, we didn't have schematics, all we had was dirt, and we liked it.

JD

When I started building effects I first came across GEO, which sure is a great site. But me as a beginner I wouldn't first read a ton of theory before getting started. What I was searching for was that fast success which - from my point of view - wasn't that good.
I started to solder a few parts together and nothing worked. After 3-4 failures I was ready to give it up. The only problem was: I couldn't!
So I started to rethink the whole mess and came to the conclution that I first have to understand at least a bit of what was going on there:
Now imagine you have to learn about complex analysis. Sure you have to read about the theory but what I think gives the most succsses in understanding is doing!
And where to start if not building a prooved project! You wouldn't create your own function to analyze either, would you? The point is that I learned a lot while cloning commercial stuff. One of it was that commercial pedals do have some limitations because they have to make money...

I don't see why cloning is a bad thing since at least everyone here started this way and if there are a guys who wont do the next step it's alright. Not everyone here is a EE or something like it and maybe most of them just like to build stuff. I mean if most of the people on this board are happy with cloning and therefor the 'inventional aspect' moves towards zero - well that's democracy no matter if it's wrong or right. How can anyone here say what the real way in diy is!

JD - I see where you're comming from, but you couldn't be more wrong.  I started out as a little loser who builds guitar effects becuase the ladies love it...and the only reason I got into it was becuase of the huge internet community and the support.  But now, I'm a bigger loser, who has his own breadboard, and a faint idea of how to design circuits, and am attempting to get into a graduate lab at Stony Brook University to do reasearch on semiconductors at low temperatures.  And this is all becuase of general guitar gadgets, Steve, and Aron.  

And while you learned from production models, I learned from these web pages.  Same thing.

[
The biggest issue here is time. Everyone is on there own little trip and they generally don't have time to get involved in a totally communal effort. The way I have seen the communal effort work best is when people come up with ideas, bounce them off each other, and then everyone applies them to their own thing.

Even at ax84, most of the newest projects are one man shows. The Taz-Tweed is an example. Someone designs an amp and if everyone in the community likes it and feels it is unique enough, it gets posted as one of the "official" ax84 projects. So in that sense, there's really not a communal design happening.

At the same time, however, there are all kinds of cool ideas coming up all the time. Things like the combination fixed/cathode biasing using zeners, or the nfb-based gain control in the P2 get applied all over the place in people's personal projects. I see that kind of cross-pollination of ideas going on continuously, and it happens here as well.

Doug[/quote]


Yeah,I can see that being the case when you think about it.
Aharon

The Internet didn’t have all these helpful sites on pedal building and schematics when I started. I learned the old fashioned way. I reverse engineered pedals, I became friends with repair guys and techs that built pedals for large companies, and I read a lot of books!


Wait what is the difference again?
I just reversed engineered a pedal this week and the funny thing is it works!
I have made a LOT of friends here, some are repair guys, some techs that built pedals for large companies, and I read as much as time allows inbetween doing things.
I think we just have better resources.
Old fasioned isn't always the best ;O)
There many different reasons to want to build something.
Not everyone has to share the desire to become a great designer to build themselves a pedal.
So I say there is room for everyone.
Even people who want to look at old things that derive from the older things that derives from the older older things etc.
And in any event I think it was just said we could draw up any old schematic of any huge pedal and it would be cool.
Unless I read that wrong then we need to simply (har har) get some huge pedals and get crackin'!
Doing it yourself and engineering it yourself are different. I think JD has made a great contribution to the DIY world.
I do not think wew need to all aspire to the same thing to hang out and learn together. At least I hope not because I came here thnking I would build a couple pedals and be done.......
Anyway I don't think I am making any real point so nevermind[/quote]

QuoteThe biggest issue here is time. Everyone is on there own little trip and they generally don't have time to get involved in a totally communal effort. The way I have seen the communal effort work best is when people come up with ideas, bounce them off each other, and then everyone applies them to their own thing.

I think thats a little different than with tube amps.  We can have a bunch of people modding a pedal design on breadboard, while you can't really do that with a tube amp...or maybe you can, but it would be much more expensive, complicated and scarry.  I wouldn't mind getting into this at some point...I just have to increase my stock greatly :)

Quote from: BillyJAt least I hope not because I came here thnking I would build a couple pedals and be done.......

Ha ha! That's what I thought too! :D  Five years ago...

Quote from: JD
Of course back in the old days, we didn't have schematics, all we had was dirt, and we liked it.

I had a stick and a ball of string too. I was the envy of the neighborhood... :D

Doug

Quote from: jsleepall we had was dirt, and we liked it.

JD

Dirt?!? You had dirt?!?

yes.  They took dirt, extracted silicon, and built the first transistors and diodes.   And thus sparked the Effects Revolution.


that would make a good movie.

Quote from: Halyes.  They took dirt, extracted silicon, and built the first transistors and diodes.   And thus sparked the Effects Revolution.

I like the old dirt better. No mojo in the new dirt. :D

As a former student of learning theory (wayyyyy back in my rat psychologist days), one of the basic principles of reward/reinforcement was that it induced "response stereotypy".  In other words, whenever you interjected a pleasing outcome into the ongoing behaviour of an animal, its behaviour tended to be less diverse than before.  As reward continued in any sort of systematic manner, behaviour would become narrower and narrower in focus, until the animal could be induced to just do the same damn thing over and over and over.  This would be true whether one was looking at a pigeon pecking, a rat barpressing, a door-to-door salesman, or a teenage boy locked in a bathroom with, uh, "graphic materials".

In one sense, the easy path to success afforded by one use of JD's site is just such an influence.  There is a temptation to simply pursue the quickest path to reward and just make what the layouts show, without ever venturing beyond.  I think that is the gist of JD's concerns.  At the same time, the "easy-bake-oven" approach to pedal-making covers so many bases at the site that making one of everything provides a broader spectrum of effects than one would often encounter at many music stores in smaller outlets/communities.  So, what looks like narrowing horizons for one group is broadening them for another.

Where the site takes a step beyond, however, (and Tonepad takes the same wise approach) is in providing followup and mods from others.  A lot of these mods are somewhat conservative I suppose, compared to what the more creative or coffee-riddled mind might pursue, but they ARE a step beyond the tried and true, and give *permission* to consider even classics as works-in-progress.  As a student of organizational behaviour these days, I cannot emphasize strongly enough how important perceived "permission" is, even just to daydream about possibilities.  Any subtle indicators that such daydreaming and tweaking is permissible can have a powerful effect on people's willingness to do so.

Simply HAVING a well-drawn schematic gives people a leg up on such daydreaming since it provides a point of reference for talking about how things work and WHY they work (and NEVER underestimate the teaching/learning value of a clear and well-drawn schematic that makes the functioning of something transparent).  Once you have a theory under your belt, the sky is the limit for the imagination.  So, in a way, just inundating people with layouts of known things that work, but showing them how the parts are connected, accomplishes so much more than merely handing them easy rewards on a plate.

A huge chunk of what I know comes from staring at unmodified schematics of standard effects whose tone and reputation I know.  Just staring and staring until everything falls into place about what is important and why.

So, in summary, although I suppose there is some "cost" to the community occurring by virtue of handing them the same old on a platter, the benefits far outweigh such costs.  Never regret what you've done JD.

Hey Mark!!!
You're a psychology major too?
Nice way bringing mister B. F. Skinner into picture! Behaviourism is all. Blessed is the one who sees it. :D

OK, i drew something up. :)
It's a derivative of Electra Distortion, that gives a nice clean boost too.

Can be viewed at:

http://public.fotki.com/AC128/schematics/booster-distortion.html

Just don't laugh, ok? :roll:  I'm no Craig Anderton and it is not something genious. just a simple build, that some people may like. See? I can contribute too. :idea:

Which brings me to my point. :arrow:

As I view myself and as I evaluate the knowledge that I have, I see that most of my so called "designs" are just a spit compared to the oceans of knowledge and experience some people have here. I don't want to look foolish with my "one-j-fet-two-diodes" boosters. :oops:  Even if I like them, they are still nothing compared to the complexity of NeoVibe for instance.

So how many people care at all to see one more generic-type schematic with one J-fet in it?

Quote from: Constantin Necrasov
So how many people care at all to see one more generic-type schematic with one J-fet in it?

Me.!

I'm barely stuffing RLC analysis under my belt... so I really prefer to look at ultra-simple designs for now.  :)

God, its been years...
Take Fetzer Vslve from www.runoffgroove.com and add shunt dioes.