I mailed John Cavenagh regarding the use of effects in early Floyd recordings, some people may find it slightly interesting.
BTW My Cavanagh as written a book about the recording of Piper.
QUOTE:Peter Jenner recalls a plastic ruler being used to create the slide effect in the intro to Emily. He also feels - and both Andrew King and Hoppy agree with this line - that Keith Rowe of AMM was an influence on Syd's use of the guitar as a sound generator.
There weren't a huge number of available stage effects then... for example, phasing was an entirely studio based effect at that time... so a lot of the sounds the Floyd and others produced in those days relied on the way they played and natural overload margins. The main effect unit both Syd & Rick used was the Binson Echorec, which was primarily designed as a delay unit, but the way Pink Floyd incorporated it in their sound involved pushing the overload margins of the valve electronics, which was highly unconventional at the time but made a great sustaining sound.
From '68-9 onwards Pink Floyd had their own sound boffin - a guy called Bill Kelsey, who later worked for Brian Eno - who created different devices for them, but the early things were played and recorded using a surprisingly simple line up of kit.
As you clearly know, the range of available pedals around these days is
incredible, but there are still some people who prefer a more direct path.
:END QUOTE
Hope this is of some interest
Rob...
Hi ,
Very interesting infos!!
I confirm that the use of a Binson Echorec helps a lot for the nice and great guitar sound.I've tried to approach the PF guitar sound since i began to play guitar(since 22 years !!)when i finaly bought a Binson That's it!!I like it so much!
I'm always looking for the phasing sound on Breathe(DSOTM),Univibe or tapes?
That the question!
Bruno
Good stuff!
I recently picked up "Pink Floyd: A Performance History" by Glen Povey and it mentions that AMM were playing in the same clubs as Floyd in the early early days and were handled by the same people. One of the things they saw in Floyd was a more "marketable" band than AMM, which was wildly experimental and avante garde. The book also mentions the influence AMM had on the Floyd at the time.
Doug
Apparently Bill Kelsey died a few months ago (I was going to try and track him down).
Although the Binson is up front on many tracks the use of it to create a form of sustain. I was in a shop last week that had two binson echorec 2s.
They where both broken but refused to even consider selling them to me (apparently the shop owner has a buyer in the US).
Still I can get a tolerable repeats with the DD-6 that I bought even if it is a little sterile.
Ho humm onward to try and find that elusive Barrett distortion sound.
If anybody out there get a selmer amp and a telecaster that they want to try some experiments with ?
Regards,
Kilby...
Perhaps we need a forum with unusual ways of using effects, such as the reverse connected wah, and sustain via the binson ;)
I don't know if there is anything particularly special about the binson. I've been able to get similar effects diddling around with an analog delay, setting the intensity real high so it feeds back, etc. Another thing Gilmour used in the Pompeii vid was a Trem Face. You can really hear it in "Saucerful of Secrets". The combination of that and the echo unit feeding back makes a real whacked out effect. Another thing Syd/Gilmour did was "bow" the strings with a slide and use an echo to sustain that.
I love the Piper album. It is really recorded well (esp for the time period) and sounds really "big". There is a -lot- going on in it and it's amazing to me how clear it sounds with all the overdubbing they did using a 4-track. A few releases later some of their recordings sounded a little "cluttered" to me. I guess they were always sorting out new equipment and technology. There is something very "pure" about Piper though...
Doug
Quote from: Doug HThere is something very "pure" about Piper though...
Doug
The main difference is Syd Barrett. One of the great tragedies of rock was when he imploded. Such a shame. :cry:
Kids, don't do drugs!
RDV
Quote from: RDVQuote from: Doug HThere is something very "pure" about Piper though...
Doug
The main difference is Syd Barrett. One of the great tragedies of rock was when he imploded. Such a shame. :cry:
Kids, don't do drugs!
RDV
Yeah, well I guess I was mainly referring to the sound of the recording. Given that they were production novices at that point, I suspect it had more to do with studio, producer, the freedom they were allowed to include their quirky sounds, as well as other stuff. I just think it was the fortunate combination of a lot of different circumstances that turned out a really nice recording. BTW, I don't think the recording of the singles of that time (Arnold Layne and See Emily Play) sounded nearly as good as that album.
Doug
Quote from: Doug HYeah, well I guess I was mainly referring to the sound of the recording. Given that they were production novices at that point, I suspect it had more to do with studio, producer, the freedom they were allowed to include their quirky sounds, as well as other stuff. I just think it was the fortunate combination of a lot of different circumstances that turned out a really nice recording. BTW, I don't think the recording of the singles of that time (Arnold Layne and See Emily Play) sounded nearly as good as that album.
Same producer until Dark Side(Norman Smith).
Regards
RDV
I always liked "Piper..." Hell as a kid in the 80's I had a local seamstress make me a paisley Nehru shirt like Syd wore on the cover. :) My band played a highschool dance and we basically cleared the place out with 10 or 15 minutes of "Interstellar Overdrive".
Anytime I think of that album of think of it as a collection of Syd's "psychotic nursery rhymes". There's a very child-like quality to his lyrics on that one. I can't listen to "Madcap..." - it's the aural equivalent of a person melting down.
Jim
Cried the studio landlord!!!
The Vibe at the time is what counts for more than half of the vibe you can get recorded.
At least I believe that say that Many Hendrix and Floyd fans would agree that the vibe of the times uncluttered by other dates rehearsals and retohrical soeculations allow for the magic of experimentation to shine during playbacks.
Tubes and Tapes can have magic I've never heard a digital, or even transistor equipment rival.
For instance Led Zeppelin, Beatles, Pink Floyd, Jimi Hendrix...I'm certain they did use transistors in the signal paths, but tubes rules in the tape machines, mixers, compressors, amps, etc.
Not to say it can't be done, it's just I've not heard it yet...there's a certain quality to these old albums like Doors that to my ears sounds superior to modern type mixes ... transistors made possibilities electronic more accesible per dollar, and most all the studios I know of use them.
Having someone 'out of control' at the controls [especially if they have assistance intheir scemes] can find the interesting inbetweens that someone more 'familiar' with the equipment may never have found.
Having colors and colture in the studio is key IMO to not getting a 'sterile' sounding playback.
One "Don't touch that knob or it'sll feedback!!!!!!!" is enough to ruin the vibe. ..."I just want to see what it will do" the 'artist' said...as he approached the 'forbidden' knob.
The one I really like is: "Oh no, 'you' have to run a direct line from your amp [you DO have a line out on your amp ... I hope'..well if you don't you can use my LINE ^6]...all the efkts will be added later'. ...soon after comes "we can get you a much better mix than you could ever get at home"...lol...seems to be the order of the day in studios around here...I don't but it.
Quote from: Jim JonesI always liked "Piper..." Hell as a kid in the 80's I had a local seamstress make me a paisley Nehru shirt like Syd wore on the cover. :) My band played a highschool dance and we basically cleared the place out with 10 or 15 minutes of "Interstellar Overdrive".
Heh-heh! Reminds of a friend of mine who cleared out a party at his house by putting on his video of "Eraserhead"... :D
Quote from: Jim Jones
Anytime I think of that album of think of it as a collection of Syd's "psychotic nursery rhymes". There's a very child-like quality to his lyrics on that one. I can't listen to "Madcap..." - it's the aural equivalent of a person melting down.
Jim
I like the Madcap alright. There are a few moments that are uncomfortable to listen to. But in general I can take it easier than "Jugband Blues". I like the Soft Machine backup too.
Doug
Quote from: RDVSame producer until Dark Side(Norman Smith).
Regards
RDV
I thought they started producing themselves around the time of ummagumma but then got Parsons for Dark Side?
Doug
Quote from: Doug HI thought they started producing themselves around the time of ummagumma but then got Parsons for Dark Side?
Meddle is the first Floyd produced album, not Dark Side(Alan Parsons engineered), my bad, though I'm sure by Ummagumma, Norman Smith was the producer in name only. I guess the point I was making was the reason Piper is so cool was Syd's songs and vision(however short lived). When he(Syd) flamed out, they basically had to start over from scratch.
Regards
RDV
I liked Opal (a collections of rareitys and outtakes), I definately got the feeling of somebody who knew what he wanted to do, but couldn't make it happen. Though from previous girlfriends and such like he was always heading for some sort of problem perhaps the pressures of stardom and drugs just brought it on quicker. After all Waters still appears to be a screwed up individual (ducks for cover).
Ummagumma, yeuch it was (to me anyway) the ultimate in self gratification (ooooh errr sounds a bit rude to me :) ), at least Atom had some good bits.
For pure aural pleasure I tend to skip dark side and go with Echoes and WYWH (I love one of these days live especially standing under their green 'laser' lighting).
Sound wise I find their earlier material most interesting as they had so much less to work with.
Rob...
Oops I meant Meddle not echos for the album name.
Just to bring this back to the effects realm (to some extent), I don't suppose anybody has tried building a binson soundalike ?
I don't mean all the recoding business, as I suppose most any analogue (or digital for that matter) delay system could be used/modified, to provide the actual echo. But more the behavour of the rest of the echorec.
Just a question really as everybody seems to really prize this system, the feckers wouldn't even le be buy a broken one :(
Rob...
Have you guys ever heard 'Scream Thy Last Scream' or 'Vegetable Man'? I think they're cool, but I'm sure they were kind of frightening to the band.
Regards
RDV
I havn't got a good recording of vegatable man but I have a few versons of scream and would have been very different compared with anything about (apart from Roky Erricssons stuff Dear Dr Doom etc).
My personal favourite floyd 'unknown' track is one of the many versions of Reaction in G (different every night) from a gig in Carlile although it's cut short there's just such a groove going on.
Rob...
Hi Kilby!
I tried several delays and echo machines for approaching the Gilmour sound but is so difficult to obtain with digital or other analogs delays these parameters:
- Warm and thick sound it because the Binson preamp is one of the best tube preamp design (5 Telefunken ECC83)
- Saturation due to the overload caused by the fuzz-face (Digital is bad!!)
- Saturation and tone in the echo sound due to the type of recording (Binson is a magnetical disk not BDD or tape)
-The number of repeat and the possible combination with the playback heads:you've got a certain distance beetweens the heads that allows to have an echo with several short dealys .This create an unique and very rich sound .The only delay you couldn't reproduce is the Automatic Double Track Delay often used in studio (DSOTM Money first part of the solo )
Maybe you could find one at another store or on the net ? I found mine with Google and it was unsold since two month .I paid it only 500$
try to contact Eric Snowball in England too,he was a very cool man ,maybe he's got one model in his stock,more he repairs them ,like that you are sure for the state of the Machine
I hope you'll find one ,since i've got mine i'm never asking me:heuu how to have this famous sound ?or :i'm going to try another delay IT'S IT!!
Your live will began to change,and you'll just have to think :i've got the sound now i should try to play like him!!Very Happy boy!
Regards
Bruno
Thanks for the info.
I thought that somebody may have 'emulated' the binson sound, to some extent.
Well that means that I have another purchase to look foreward to.
I don't mind the guitar practice (even though I know that I will never get to where I want to be), as to be honest I just like playing with sound. I guess that's why I ended up here.
Rob...
If you like that kind of sound, you'll love those analog echo machine. You may find some very clever emulation but it seems that even the preamp section on those Binson adds its own color.
The psyche type sound you may find here are just unbelievable !!
We have a Binson PE603 and Roland Space echo in our studio.
The first echos were tube, so you'll have preamp distortion and echo more suited for guitars and great but forgot about servicing (an echo needs some work along the road but it's worse with tube type). The binson is tapeless, just a magnetic disk so eventually it will loose its magnetic field and bye bye. If you buy one of them, forget about moving it around for gigs and the like. The Roland (especially the 201) sounds cleaner in a good way, less grainy and guitar oriented than the binson and earlier tube type. They don't need that much servicing and the tape lasts longer (5m instead of 0.5m for the old ones).
Echo are a must for guitar, the first thing to put on a setup for my test.
Tom
Quote from: KilbyMy personal favourite floyd 'unknown' track is one of the many versions of Reaction in G (different every night) from a gig in Carlile although it's cut short there's just such a groove going on.
Rob...
That's a good one, also nice to hear the early "set the controls" on that set. Could do without the idiotic DJ but you can't have everything, esp with boots.
Another fun thing is to track the evolution of "eugene" through the years. It started very differently than it ended up. Most frightening version I've heard is Bobligen (sp?), W. Germany 1972. Very intense and strange...
Doug
I've heard one Reaction in G, but what about "One In a Million"? Is that even Pink Floyd?
Regards
RDV
Hullo Hullo--
So, what are some ideas about Barretts' fuzz?? It sounds to me [on the first album, anyway..] that it's a pretty "fuzzy" unit that's played through a pretty clean-set amp [Selmer??]. The fuzz seems to be coming more from the pedal instead of an amp that's turned up loud.
Shin-ei, Maestro, Tonebenders, Fuzz Faces.......they were all around at that time.....
Brian.
I heard in that Floyd biography mentioned earlier that Syd's overdrive/fuzz was homemade. No other details offered. Is there a british version of Popular Electronics that he may have nicked it from? :shock: ONE OF US ONE OF US!!
Hmmm I saw a space echo for sale last week, as for the gigging situation I don't gig (some would even say that I don't actually play :) ) Purchase is unlikely at the moment as I have spent my toy money for the next couple of months on a Tokai Firebird.
The idiot DJ is right F# Minor indeed, however that's the only track from that gig (HUGE BIG HINT IN THAT SENTENCE). I will have to hunt out the German version that you mention, I like strange music.
I have seen a few versions of one in a million, but don't ever remember listening to it.
I will post the two versions of Reaction that I have on my web space once I hunt them out.
As for the original equipment,
I suppose it may be possible to track down either Joe Boyd or Pete Jenner they should have a internet presence considering how they earn their living.
Rob...
Also Dave Gregory ex guitarest of XTC may have an idea So I could try getting in contact with him I suppose as he is a complete equipment nut.
Dude,
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
http://www.triptico.com/artwork/under_cthulhu.html
hello Hullo-
HHmmmmm......homemade, eh??
Hey, Aron, was the Stompbox Forum going in the mid 60's ??
Does anybody know of any early live Floyd video stuff that might shed some light on the gear?? I've got one segment from a BBC thing [complete with live interview with the band...] that I'll have to dig up and check real closely.
Now, where's my copy of "At The Mountains of Madness" ??
Brian.
Quite a few pictures about the various websites with the Syd Floyd seem to show Syd with one of those old curly cords going straight from Esquire to amp(or Esquire to Echorec to amp).
Regards
RDV
Hello Hullo--
Wow, I still have my old original white coil cord......maybe if I turn it around the other way I'll get a good fuzz out of it!
Yeah, I've got some of those photos, too. It makes me wonder if Syd just forgot the ol' fuzz box for some shows!
Brian.
QuoteHey, Aron, was the Stompbox Forum going in the mid 60's ??
Yeah right! Way back then, stompboxes were a secret science! :)
Personally I was hoping that the dread Chtulhu would arise and tell me, he hasn't yet. Possibly I will give dagon a shout instead.
So far I have dug up Selmer 50 watt amps with 4*12 cabs and that's it :(
Please don't shout at me gor having a digital effect in my possession but
to keep on with the theme, I was playing about with my Korg px 4 and found my old Lucifer Sam setting
AC30TB @ 4.0
2*12VOX @ 4.0
SLAP1 @ 8.0
HALL1 @ 5.7
NR @ 3.0
Sounds very good on a strat (middle pickup)
For Shine on try for the motied & F to G slide on the bottom string
HUM>SGL @ 4.7 (humbucker to single coil)
AC30 @ 7.3
4X12MDN @ 4.3 (Modern speakers)
CHORUS2 @ 0.44
PLATE1 @ 5.7
NR @ 2.7
I am surprised that it dosn't need any phasing added
Rob...
Some of Syd's best tones came from that Danelectro he was playing on 'Interstellar Overdrive' on the 'Tonight Let's Make Love In London' soundtrack. I know what he's using there cause you can see it. It's the Dano into the Binson into the Selmer and that's it and sounds cool as hell!
Regards
RDV
Hello Hellooooo-
O.K., I found the video and watched it. No fuzz whatsoever. Actually, I'd forgotten how LITTLE fuzz there is on those tracks. I seem to remember that "Emily" and "Arnold" were not included in their live set very much [if at all] so that would eliminate the need for a fuzz pedal......
There's some great stuff with the Nice and Small Faces on this tape as well!
Brian.
Small Faces!!!
God, Steve Marriott was awesome...
Jim