Hello Hullo---
As I mentioned in another thread, I've had a reissue Colorsound Tonebender [three knob, thin case] laying around for a few years [couldn't use it 'cuz it sounded......errmmmmm.....LIKE CRAP...]. I decided to replace the circuit with the original-style 3-tranny germanium circuit.
Along the way I tried using 2 silicon PNP trannys for Q1 and Q2 and it sounds GREAT. Much tighter "crunch" and less flabby in the low end.
As the circuit stands now it's got 2 2N3906's [Q1 and Q2] and a Valvo OC 75 [fairly high gain] for Q3. I had to bias Q3 differently [the 18K that's in the schematics that I've got had to come WAY down. I also took the 220K between the tone and volume controls out. After a few other tweaks it was enshrined in it's rightful home inside the Colorsound case.
This circuit [when properly biased for the transistors used] is a lot quieter then the MK II circuit [THAT gets a bunch of points from me!] and has a little less overall fuzz with better definition. Also, it's tone is different enough to warrant having both pedals.
Anybody else have any experience with these??
Brian.
brian, no experience with that pedal, but i did built a colorsound overdriver clone last week. it uses three bc109c transistors (early silicon fuzz face replacements).
i can't say enough about it...it sounds great! i've already used it at three gigs and get tons of compliments on my lead tone. this is in austin, mind you. folks are very particular about guitars here...
i'd be very interested in hearing other colorsound pedals. thanks, jon
Hi Brian,
Interesting you should post this - I was just about to start a Colorsound TB thread. :)
I built the 3-knob a couple weeks ago and I also find it to be quieter than the MKII - agreed, a good thing! It's also nice having a tone control.
After reading Stuart Casteldine's page I experimented with Si's in the Q1 and Q2 spots - but I went back to the Ge's. By the way, I used all low gain 2SB173's for my trannies.
For me the circuit is way too gainy (like every fuzz seems to be) :) - so taking a page from Prescription Electronics, I upped the gain pot - didn't have a 250K around so I'm using 500K.
Also, fuzzes get a bit too kazoo-y for me so I socketed the input cap and have been experimenting with smaller values.
So far I think this is my favourite of the Colorsound fuzzes. I'll do some more playing around with it before I commit to boxing it up nice and neatly though.
Jim
Hello Cajununicorn--
I'm located in Austin, too! Send me an email or something.......
Brian.
Hello Hello Jim-
Yeah, by all means start another Tonebender thread!! Can't get enough info on those buggers! I think I'm gonna like this Three Knob circuit [at least this slightly modded version...]. I had the Colorsound Reissue for YEARS along with the Yardbox and neither version came close to what they should have been, so it's nice to once again have my faith restored in the original circuit. Did you keep all the original values for biasing Q3??
Brian.
Did you put a volume pot on your Colorsound Overdriver Clone?
Took me a while but I think I got it right on the small [for the ckt] piece of perf...The output level of this is very much!!!
Will probly be better when I find some Q's that closer match the designated ones, I put two 5088's and a 5089 in there to see if it works...had some troubles and had to do a 'few' fixes, at least I'm getting to where I can usually find the problem after a little bit of digging. I don't know how I got to be better at debugging than wiring right but Se' la' Vie...Anyway all three knobs seem to be working now....interesting how the tone section is' in there.
Did you change any of the cap values?
Q3's collector is running at 8v+ [out of 11.86v battery]....seems a little high?...don't know whether that's a 'good'... ....don't know what kind of biasing numbers were intended to be there for the ckt to sound 'right'.
Hello Hello petemoore--
I used BC 184L in my Colorsound Overdrive and I'm pretty sure Q3's collector is around the 5v - 6v range. [I also put a master-volume at the output of the circuit........a MUST for this pedal!] This is one of the best overdriver-type pedals EVER!
Brian.
Quote from: cajununicornbrian, no experience with that pedal, but i did built a colorsound overdriver clone last week. it uses three bc109c transistors (early silicon fuzz face replacements).
i can't say enough about it...it sounds great! i've already used it at three gigs and get tons of compliments on my lead tone. this is in austin, mind you. folks are very particular about guitars here...
i'd be very interested in hearing other colorsound pedals. thanks, jon
Did you put a master volume on the end?
aron,
yeah, i used the layout from greenfuzz and it has a master volume added to the circuit. i used it again last night and i'm digging it. jon
Hi Brian,
You know I haven't played with the bias on Q3...I'm not even sure what voltage I have on the collector there. Should if be like the FF and MKII and in the neighbourhood of 1/2 supply V?
Jim
From the looks of it [as amp Q3 of C.O.D.] the closer you get to around half, the more room the Q has to swing Pos then Neg...I went to troubles to get bout zackli 1k8, but now I think I'll mess with that value
Q2 looked like a FF Q2 so of course you know what I did with it's collector resistor...now I am vari-able to get 1/2 supply there...
Hullo Hullo---
When setting Q3 biase on ANY circuit I sit there an play through the device with the amp I'm gonna use and set it so I like it! I always seem to settle on between 4v and 6v. On a couple of the germanium pedals I have a pot instead of a set resistor so it can be tweaked to compensate for any temp. or other funny stuff....
Brian.
Hi Brian,
I'll make some voltage measurements tonight and do some friggin' around. I may have just lucked into a sweet spot because it does sound quite good. Out of curiosity, when you play with a fuzz do you mainly use single coils?
Jim
P.S. I've been monkeying around with my Ge diode clipper circuit - tried a paralleled 5532 for the opamp last night. I haven't had a chance to play it loud yet but it seems to have tightened up the sound a bit. It's much quieter than the 741 for sure. :)
Humbuckers sound fatter.
I use a Washburn [strat style 'electrics'] for live lately, but used the HB's in my LP the other day [for decades, a devout Gibson Guy] and I would have to say that HB's are more forgiving...and Just Plain Fuzz Fatter...I don't know, they say there are singles sound 'just like' doubles but I don't remmember trying any.
Hey Pete,
You say "fatter" - I say "bloated". :) I just don't like super fuzzy pedals wih humbuckers. I like cows but I don't like to emulate their moo-ing with my guitar. :)
Jim
Hello Hello Jim--
MMOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!
Naw, I usually use single coils with most of my fuzzes.......although the Axis circuit is great with humbuckers.
I do switch off guitars quite often, so some circuits just have to be used with some guitars [Gibsons] and others with others [Fenders].
Brian.
Hi Brian,
QuoteMMOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!
Naw, I usually use single coils with most of my fuzzes.......
I thought as much! Thanks for not going bovine. :)
I changed my Q3 collector resistor to a 25K trimpot but didn't get to fire the beast back up before my honey got home. I'll have to try it out tomorrow after work. With the 18K in there I didn't get any nasty blatty, gated type sounds so maybe it was OK as it was...
Also, you said you replaced the guts of a reissue TB (fantastic looking enclosures on the Colorsound stuff BTW) Was the reissue circuit the one with the opamp and clipping diodes? I remember seeing a "RI" circuit somewhere that was nowhere near the original...
Jim
Hello Hello Jim---
Nope, this one is a 3-tranny [silicon] circuit. These were reissued around 1990-or-so and I've had it laying around since. Actually, I'm going to sell the circuit board for $50. That op-amp version is over on the Fuzz Central site.
Now, I think we should take a vote to see if you get kicked off the forum for letting your relationship with your wife get in the way of testing a pedal!! SHAME!!!!
[also.......MMMOOOOOOOOOO...]
Brian.
Quote from: brian wenz
Now, I think we should take a vote to see if you get kicked off the forum for letting your relationship with your wife get in the way of testing a pedal!! SHAME!!!!
[also.......MMMOOOOOOOOOO...]
Brian.
Hahaha - I know my place dammit! :) We're just in the midst of wedding plans - trust me, there's enough stress in the house right now. :)
Jim
Hi ,
There's no rules about single-coils or humbuckings ,both sound differents
,but there is happy combinations betters than others;It's the same than weddings!
Bruno
Hello Hello Jim===
Yeah, that must be a little "stressy". Are you going to play at your wedding reception??
All the best!!
Brian.
Hey Brian,
No! No playing from me - besides the prettiest thing I can think of to play is "Little Wing". :)
We're actually going to Scotland to do the deed at a castle. To be honest I can't remember how we decided on that but it should be entertaining. We thought that leaving family at home and going off on our own would make things less complicated but I dunno about that now...
Any good Scottish gear shops I should check while I'm there, fellow Stompboxers? If we were getting married in London I's ask her to register at Macari's -- but I don't think she'd appreciate that. :)
Jim
Hello Hello Jim-
Scotland would be amazing!
Yeah, not having the WHOLE BLOODY FAMILY making the trek could result in some problems, I guess. Maybe if you bring back lots of photos of the Loch Ness monster as presents ????
Better take lots of WARM clothing, though!
Now, about that Tonebender......
Brian.
Thanks for your review of the CS Overdriver.
I put one of these together...took me a while to get it striaght...I started with a touch too small piece of perf...lol...It's in the box now whew...took a couple days before it fired up right.
I took heed to your post, and this thing sounds really great!!!
I like the way the four knobs work ... I tried with no volume control for a moment...put a 100k on there...Very Nice!!!!!!!!!!
Hi Pete,
I've been meaning to build an Overdriver for about a year now - and I still haven't gotten to it! A friend of mine has a real deal Colorsound jobbie from 1972 and it's awesome.
Brian,
I finally got a chance to crank up up my 3-knob TB with the trimmer for Q3. Even using a 25K trimmer I'm not getting a whole lot of voltage variation. The tone changes a tad but not enough for me not just to use a fixed 18K there.
It's a very smooth sounding fuzz - I like it!
Jim
Hello Jim--
Are you using a socket for Q3?? I was gonna say that maybe you could try some other trannys in there and take some readings from those.....
Sometimes if the germ has high leakage it won't bias correctly.
Brian.
I'm really starting to appreciate these Si FF type ckt's.
The Colorsound Overdriver being a prime example.
Once I got it 'right' [I just ordered some, my first, BCxxx's and will retune], I can tell I'm really liking this one.
The knobs work quite well, it seemed unusually easy to dial in classic TB Tone, and the low end Gain 'with' definition, was something I noticed instantly the thing just is smooth and more forgiving.
RIght now it has 5088/9's and an input cap marked 563k.
Pretty dang sweet/smooth less raspy, seems like it's about tops, can't wait to try it this weekend
Quote from: petemooreI'm really starting to appreciate these Si FF type ckt's.
'twas a silicon 'Face that seduced me into compulsive pedal building.
The big 3 factors that make or break a Si FF are type of transistor (2N3904's give me a headache), bias (4.5 on Q2's collector), and if you have some gain-slamming transistors (as I prefer to use), layout.
Si 'Faces can get a nasty oscillation riding atop the signal if the components and traces are not in the right physical relationship to each other.
Hello Hello Erik--
What layout do you use for yer FFs?? I've been trying to nail down a good [NOISE FREE !!] layout for some time.
Thanks for any help!
Brian.
My layout is a PCB that I designed myself, and it's a big part of my proprietary tooling.
20 years ago, I was laying out thick film integrated circuits, then I worked for a company that is famous for its musical RF products. From these I learned about component density and about interference.
My boards are 1" square, and I don't cheat by standing my resistors on end. Yet. :-)
Most of the FF layouts I see do not follow my own PCB design principles. Nothing wrong with that, but I wouldn't try to build a Crucible Fuzz on one.
Basically, arrange the components to keep your traces as short as possible, avoid running traces side-by-side (that's the biggest violation I see), and remember that it's okay NOT to have all your wires terminate at a single edge of the board. As a matter of fact, I like to spread them out so as to keep the signals away from each other.
Check out the sound samples on my Crucible page, especially the ones where I'm strumming and muting with the humbucker'd guitar. That's how noise-free a high gain Si FF-type can be.
Of course, with single coils, anything that adds gain will make it noisier, but that's not the fault of the gain-adding device.
Hello Hello Erik--
I always went back to the original Fuzz Face and Tonebender layouts for reference but there always seemed to be one or two traces that were a little long, and when I tried to change that around it screwed up the rest of the layout! Sometimes I just lay out a board as per the schematic......seems to work o.k. alot of the time.
Thanks!
Brian [say "hi" to California for me!]
Hi,
Why some old 3 Knobs TB are very deep sounding,not in your face even in transistors amps ? I'm asking if old PCBs design and material (epoxy or bakelite)could affect so more the sound?
Regards
Bruno