Here's a question. I think we know that if we reverse and redraw our own schematics, it's ok.
Now how about hi-resolution photos? Is it ok, to post them, or are they also intellectual property similar to original schematics?
If not, I think we should have a library of circuit photos. 8)
That I would be willing to host.
If I designed something and there was a hi-res pic of it up I sure wouldn't mind. 8) Mind you when I stop being lazy I'm going to put all the stuff I made up on my site. ;)
I am kind of a beginner and don't really design my own pedals from scratch yet... but if I did I wouldn't see a difference between posting a pcb layout or posting a high res pic of the pc board.
I guess you would have to really look at the reason why people don't want their pcb's floating around. Is it because they don't want people to build clones? Is it because the want to make it harder for people to clone? For that matter, I don't see a difference in posting a schematic and posting and posting a pcb layout. It seems the only difference is the difficulty level for someone to clone it. To me... if I didn't want people cloning my pedal... I would be as upset seeing a schematic posted as I would a pcb layout.
Now, I know there are legal issues involved... but I am trying to look past that to the real reason why people don't want pcb layout's floating around... any thoughts?
Aron,
You've been reading my mind. If you do host it, count me in, I've got some very good hi-res photos of a few things I haven't seen on the net and they are DIY-friendly views if you know what I mean.
Let me know. My site traffic is already thru the roof and climbing every month, so I haven't posted them on my site. I think most of the good photos I have are around 300-400kb each range.
JD
I think photos would be very educational from the standpoint of seeing the construction methodology that companies use at different volumes, but as an aspiring pedal seller, this is exactly why I have a bunch of "obscurants" in my bookmarks.
You can get past glycidyl epoxy with a modified soldering iron, but luckily there are other types that are not so easily breeched. ;)
The amount of circuit copying out there keeps pushing me more and more toward designs that make it harder on the cloners. Maybe if more people figured out how hard it was to make a living at pedals there would be far fewer copies floating around. Anybody who wants to see for themselves can check out this utility (http://64.7.66.217/map/project.php). (now in rev 1.1)
On the legal front, this might be walking the line. I don't know. The layout is copyrighted, even without the inclusion of the (C) symbol. Copyright law says you have to change something 30% for the copyright to stop applying. I don't think anybody could claim to be making a parody of a pedal.
That's just my 2 cents.
As a hobbyist, would I like to see the pics? I sure would! :D
Take care,
-Peter
well if i count, i'd say if the pedal is out of production, then it should be cool.
but , i don't know all the laws. RG or jack will likely chime in and give us some more answers , i'm sure.
peace,
- tom pollock
I am not a lawyer but I think the only protection question here involve the rights of the person who took the photo rather than the layout.
A picture of the layout cannot be protected no matter what copyright law you have.
Only when you use a layout as a layout are you going to have trouble.
Otherwise it could be just art ;O)
Sorry but I think that is the loophole. You could post a picture of a layout and rip on how lame it is (or isn't) and I think that falls inot either parody or commentary....
I think that is how it works and there isn't a law to protect anyone.
I think if there were Mr. Huge might have mentioned it to us when the picture of his pickle was posted.
I would be much more concerned about people submitting photos the didn't take or don't have the rights to distribute.
All my opinion so DON'T take it for gospel.
I remember seeing a site that had the guts of a few older pedals...it was really interesting.
I'm all for the idea!
If I can post a photo of the guts of a pedal to sell it, then I sure as hell can post it for learning purposes. I'm willing to bet that the previous point that the law will only protect the photographer's rights is correct.
Quote from: javacodyIf I can post a photo of the guts of a pedal to sell it, then I sure as hell can post it for learning purposes. I'm willing to bet that the previous point that the law will only protect the photographer's rights is correct.
Don't be too sure. Copyright law is a funny thing especially when you start talking about things that start to become nebulous. Much of it depends on how good your I.P. lawyer is when you walk on the fence.
"Fair use" covers much of this if not all of it, but it's possibly illegal to right click and "save as", all depending on what your plans are. I wonder how this covers copyrighted material that finds its way into your cache. :?
I'm not an attorney and I don't even play one on TV, but the law concerning this is all found under Title 17. Chapter 1, Section 107 is where you'll find fair use. I get a headache every time I try to read legalese.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/
I would just hate to see some middle to large sized company with an aggressive attorney cause problems for this proposed library. I also worry because I've independently designed more than one circuit that I've seen turn up here as a DIY idea or in a commercial design. For instance, my version of the Little Gem is 17 years old now and I have lots of witnesses, but I don't have proof when it comes to the rest of my designs. When the goal and the parts to make the goal happen are the same, you can bet that multiple people will come up with the same idea. It's just going to happen.
Honestly, I have a very love/hate relationship with the whole concept of I.P.
In the end, I would still love to see a photo archive for the benefit that it could bring the whole DIY community.
OK, I think I’m done rambling now. :)
Take care,
-Peter
Mr. Huge had a legal problem with the picture of the SP staying up, but not the schematic...
Definetly! Great Idea :)
Well, I'm not going to speculate anymore on the law, but people need a way to learn, and one of the best ways to learn is to see how others have done it. One of the basic tenets of our system is that you can't exactly duplicate a patent, but you sure as hell can come up with your own improvements and patent those. How do you do this without studying what the other guy did first?
Peter, I understand your desire to protect yourself, and from my interactions with you, I would say that your nature tends to slide more towards almost giving too much. :D Thanks for sharing your experience. My hope would be that the experience and good karma you're building up will be enough to offset any profit you may lose.
Thanks Javacody.
Hey!, :lol: did you notice that was post 386 for you? :lol: How's that for Karma! :D
Take care,
-Peter
:oops: nevermind
I'm not a lawyer,
but I have an opinion on this-
If I knew that someone was going to post a hi-res photo of one of my
boards- I'd go berzerk!
It would be enough to make me get out the JB weld, to at least slow you guys down a little.
I vote "no"..... don't do this to stuff still in production.
Ed R.
Why make a library of photos? If people want the PCB, we should be posting ready-to-use PCBs (like FP does over at tonepad.com). Similarly with layouts - a photo is going to lead to all sorts of confusion between red and brown bands, unusual parts, etc. Why not just post a parts overlay? Again, like the tonepad, geofex, GGG etc sites.
Or am I missing something here about the value of a photo?
I kinda doubt there's be any legal barrier to posting photos of the insides, or outsides for that matter, of pedals. Of course, that won't stop a lawyer with a client willing to spend the money.
I'd vote for more information across the board, not just on extinct products.
That being said, I'm not sure what value such pictures would have once the schem is traced. Except to act as some kind of weird geek porn.
Creating a schem from a picture something I like to do to kill some time. (Other people make crossword puzzles....) So yeah, send the pic's in. Let's start with the out-of-production pedals (Lovetone Doppelganger :wink: ). By the time we have finished them more stuff will be out-of-production.....
Quote from: brettWhy make a library of photos? If people want the PCB, we should be posting ready-to-use PCBs (like FP does over at tonepad.com). Similarly with layouts - a photo is going to lead to all sorts of confusion between red and brown bands, unusual parts, etc. Why not just post a parts overlay? Again, like the tonepad, geofex, GGG etc sites.
Or am I missing something here about the value of a photo?
How do you think the schematics got on the web? Someone had to reverse them.
Well, it seems to me the idea of a photo library (although it does exist in some forms) is not ready to happen here.
There's a lot to be learned from pictures of how other people did their work.
I think photos would be a handy visual aid linking schematics to something a little more real. Photos would be a great starting point for drawing your own PCBs too -you'd be able to get an idea of what you're aiming for.
ALSO: People are well within their legal rights to distribute photos of PCBs...after all...they payed for the damn things. If the designers don't like it, they can always put goop on their boards.
It's almost like an artist never wanting anyone to see their artwork incase someone else copies their style.
How about photos of pedals that already have their schematics published by the manufacturer? I have a friend who is an actual IP attorney I can ask about specifics.
I agree that there's a lot to be learned from looking at how others build their devices. (component selection, etc.)
Take care,
-Peter
Quote from: Peter SnowbergI don't think anybody could claim to be making a parody of a pedal.
Not consciously, no. :oops:
Doesn't fair use also apply to educational uses?
Aron, I think this is a great idea. I would like to see how to make my pedals more abusable, if you know what I mean. I am not planning on selling pedals for a living. I do this for the pure enjoyment of making them, and the fun of playing through them. I won't be stealing revenue from anyone, because I am never buying a pre-made pedal again either way (except for maybe used on Ebay).
Well if people are making money off of a certain design, then no don't post them. It'd be unethical. What I would vote 'yes' for is things like stuff allready out in public like some of the schemmo's at tonepad and ggg. Also out-of-production pedals would be OK to post, I should think.
I like looking at pictures of pedal guts, and builds that other people make. Sometimes it's really inspiring and it makes you wanna build that thing because 'that guy' made it look and sound so cool. :) I think you get it ;)
Stop the bluff..
Folks no lawyer is going to show and do anything.
Has it ever happened before????
Nonsense!
It's also ethics we have to consider here :roll:
Hey Pedal Fiends,
To add fuel to the fire, I have some VERY high resolution scans of an old EH MicroSynth. It is both boards, both sides.
The only downside is that the files are large. I scaned them at something like 750 dpi, but I had to shrink the picture because it wouldn't open on my computer. It is still huge, but manageable.
Any one want to host the pics?
Drop me a line at datilderek@excite.com.
Derek
Quote from: BillyJStop the bluff..
Folks no lawyer is going to show and do anything.
Has it ever happened before????
Nonsense!
Bluff? Uhhhh... No.
Has it ever happened before? I.P. attorneys defend I.P. every single day of the year and they are
very highly paid. Did you see where I mentioned I have a friend who is one?
Nonsense? See the above response.
When they're nice, they just ask you to cease and desist. If the attorney has a rabid client, the game is often to use up your financial resources in hiring your own lawyer to defend your actions; valid or not. It's a game played every day in the U.S. If you are charged with giving away information that hurts the future of a product, be prepared for litigation.
It's a VERY lucrative area of law. Unless you're volunteering to pay for legal fees and you have just won the lottery, accept it's a touchy area. You simply can't say how people will react. You need to be very careful when it comes to I.P.
Please feel free to do as you like on your server.
-Peter
Aron why even start a thread like this!?
The ethics shit around these parts is enough to make on want to create a forum that these silly ass rules do not apply too at all.
I understand and respect the wishes to protect those that are helpful memebers but it should have never been.
There should never have been favours for anyone, not RG, Jack, Peter, Me, ZVex, Aron, no one!!!
The only people that really benefit from all this nonsense are the companies that can simply afford to buy your pedal and reverse it.
Poof! the have a clone on the market the next week.
No one around here is going to do that damnit!
People around here will make one for themselves.
The big companies are not going to come here and take some teen aged kids word for how a circuit is supposed to work.
Not if they have intentions of cloning and competing.
They simply buy one and reverse it.....duh!
Ok besides having a wild hair up my ass today and looking to stir some shit (hey I say what I feel. Not always right but I am not afraid to be wrong or stand corrected so have at it!) can you Peter or anyone point to an example of these IP lawyers coming within a mile of anything even bearing any resemblance to this situation?
I doubt it and here is why.....
You can take a picture of any godamnned thing you wish excpet perhaps minors and it is nothing more than a photo or art!
Someone..... anyone!!! show me an example of a picture of the insides of a product sold to the public that is illegal to posses or post or host.
Not gonna happen!!!!!
Did it ever cross anyones mind that possesion is 9/10th of the law.
If I own a pedal I can take photos of it from any damn angle and post it wherever the hell I want.
If you don't want people to look and take picture than I think you need to have them sign an agreement or contract of some kind.
To tell me I cannot take a picture of something I own is so gadamned stupid I cannot even belive I am hearing it.
Sorry but I think this is nonsense and if no one can put some examples of the illegal pictures of commercial proiducts sold to the public than I say it is more like bullshit!!!
So let's all cut the bullshit!!!!
Anyone got an example of illegal pictures that do not involve minors or the goverment security!?
I won't hold my breath......
Oh shit I just found out that you can't take a picture of your cars engine without violating IP law!!!!
It is nonsense and it is quickly turning to bullshit but I have no doubt that the powers that be will kill it no matter what the truth is!!!!!!
OK I am going to go crawl under a rock while everyone takes a stab at me.
Have fun but I do ask to keep the insults to a minimum.
I am just entertaining thoughts and ideas!
I do not feel like defending my age, intelligence, or otherwise.
If you feel the need please send me PM.
I do have a great amount of respect for this place and the people here.
I feel we are all grown up enough to have a debate without personal attacks.
Now if I can just ignore this thread I could might actually get something done :O)