I recently read the post about who had the least talent and most recognition and thought i'd open a new topic....
I've been a huge rock/metal/grunge fan for years now...and I find that music nowadays lacks the guitar solo...where did it go??? It seems that there is nothing more than a barage of effects. And yes, it does sound cool to some degreee, but all that noise can't beat a sweet solo from a guitar efficionado. I rarely listen to new rock because it sucks.... it lacks any real musical talent....
What gives??? Is it all about a pretty face anymore??
Quote from: jflamWhat gives??? Is it all about a pretty face anymore??
Yeah, a pretty young face. Of course that's not why
we don't have a deal, we suck as well as being old, and ugly.
//www.theintention.com
RDV
Saul Hudson is on his way to bringing it back with his new band Velvet revolver!! Slash Rocks!!
in the end it all comes down to the music industri...its completley run by greedy fools and morons...the musical industry dont want great performers or great artists. it wants to sell the latest production SOUND, match it with an interchangeble face and sell it to children.( this is where stupididyty comes in...read on) ...true artists and musicians are to hard to deal with for the industry, they have their own ideas about music, they want controll of their own songs, they have an artistic vision...to hard to deal with...much easier to buy in songs with the latest SOUND, slap on a cute teenagers face and call it something like "the next Aretha..".or whoever
it used to be that the avarage music-buyer was between 15-30 years old with the younger people buying significantly more albums than the older people. now with the internet, most younger people download their music, just the songs they want and dont have to pay for all the crappy songs that comes with that ONE good song on the teeny-album...and the majority of people PAYING for the albums are geting older, they want albums that have more than one good song, or they just turn on the radio..
so how does the industry respond?...
sign another cute teenage girl. find ONE good song. try to sell it to those who are most likely to download instead of paying for it, and then complain its hard to make proffitt..
at the same time, millions of people walk around trying to find new interresting music that you can listen to for hours, albums that are good all the way through, that display musical tallent ( those of us who enjoy guitarsolos or whatever instrument is the significant in its own genre)...and we dont care what the artist look like, or how well he/she can dance...we want MUSIC
I've seen the songwriting side from the inside ( used to help a friend who was signed as a songwriter) ...you write a song with a given SOUND, leave room for the artist, leave a little space for an instrumental passage ( the guitarsolo?) and then see that space get filled by 12 people jumping around syncronized in an alley....that's where the guitarsolo went...
..."its a long way to the top, if you wanna rock'n'roll..."
...sorry I got a little caried away....the music industry dont want guitarsolos, they stick out from the streamlining of production line music, and anything that sticks out, might be refused by the radio, since it might scare off the listener and then the radio cant fill the comersiall slots...
...maby all this is only true here in Scandinavia...
...I also beleive that MTV IS BAD FOR MUSIC...god for musicbuissenis, bad for musiclovers..
once again...sorry I got caried away....
Johan ( no I'm not bitter...really...)
I remember someone saying that. That they don't want virtuosos because they are hard to replace.
I think it will come around again. Uh, maybe in 10-20 years though :(
Quote from: Johan
...maybe all this is only true here in Scandinavia...
It's not much better here in Germany, believe me, it's so hard finding any radio station that does *not* play utter crap 24/7... but hey, a billion flies can't be wrong...
At least you have some decent metal bands in Scandinavia! I will finally have a chance to see In Flames in about three weeks, when they come to Stuttgart!!
I would suggest that there is more good music being produced today than ever before. The sad thing is that so many people are unaware of it if it isn't thrust under their noses - and largely, it isn't. The way that the 'popular' music industry has gone off the rails in pursuit of the fast buck both saddens and amazes me.
The music industry is there to make money. Whether you like it or not it's just fulfilling a demand. Look back over the past 50 years and there are plenty of talentless, pretty-faced teens who made the charts.
Want good music? Plenty of it around, you just have to do a bit of legwork...
I think that when we learnt how to play guitar solos in the 1960s, it was something new. We generally went to see a band because it had an amazing lead guitarist, many of whom disappeared into obscurity. The majority, I'm afraid, of the younger generation of guitarists have also disappeared, but under a sea of distortion, and just don't seem to possess lightning fingers and technique of old - could it be baggy jeans doing the damage?. For instance, we went to see the Yardbirds because they had this bloke Eric Clapton, followed by Jeff Beck, and before that Screaming Lord Sutch and the Savages who always had an amazing guitarist - just a guitar, lead and amp up loud.
I completely agree about the lame state of "the music biz". However, with some digginng, you can find plenty of amazing music of whatever sort you want. It's WAY easier to record now, so I think alot more people are doing it. But you won't hear this stuff on clearchannel.
One place I _constantly_ hear new music:
http://www.wfmu.org
This is a station where they actually don't pay the DJ's anything, and they play WHATEVER THEY WANT. This is an incredible thing.
Honestly, a year ago I thought really thought rock was dead, for me at least. Now, I know it's thriving...
BTW, you want guitar solos? There's a bunch of prog bands around like Dream Theater etc?? Also, say what you want, "The Darkness" has some tasty lead playing at times....
I have to say, my favorite band right now, and I believe the best rock band currently in the world, is The Mars Volta (http://www.marsvolta.com). The guitarist is super versatile, and uses effects frequently and tastefully. I really don't know how many times I've listened to their current album (150?) - I still want more. These guys are INCREDIBLE.
OK. Sorry for the rant...
- Mark
The guitar solo has disappeared in MOST music that is popular is due to the fact that the guitar solo only adds more time to the song and somehow the music industry thinks we as a whole get impatient. Numerous bands had to chop off even just INTROS to their songs because they were too long and people may lose interest. I rarely ever listen to anything that the main music industry has to offer although The Darkness definately gets a little thumbs up from my department. Maybe that will change things. Next thing you will see is an truckload of The Darkness clones.
Btw, here is something interesting, ever heard of Nickleback(yeah they suck imho) but listen to this mp3. It's two of their sounds layered on top of each other. be amazed.
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/~bumble/Nickelback%20-%20How%20You%20Remind%20Me%20Of%20Someday.mp3
Maybe someone has already pointed this out. A producer pointed this out to me. I for some reason came to that conclusion when I thought they were the same song but I really don't pay attention to what is being played.
read Ayn Rand's 'The Fountainhead'... written in the 40's - and it rings SO true today.
She was talking about things like political correctness, etc.. and the main thrust of the book is 'celebrating mediocrity to eliminate true greatness'. One of my favorites.
It is SO accurate as to the current state of the music biz it's frightening.
"-)
most people know that commercial music for the most part
is a product. you got some underpayed young kids trying to
meet the bills and some guy's going to offer them a
100,000 signing bonus....what do you think they're going to choose?
then they get in the studio and some producer is telling them
to put strings in the background because that's what 35 year old
women are drawn to psychologically, or instead of using
real drums, the producer wants you to use loops because
"that's what kid's like nowadays, and that's what sells." i know of a talented band who got signed, but "had" to drop the drummer because he
was pudgey and not as "good looking" as the rest of them.
the list goes on and on.....
IF YOU WANT TO FIND GOOD MUSIC, YOU'VE GOT TO LOOK
AT INDEPENDENT BANDS.
you wont find chaps like phil keaggy in tight girl's pants
dancing in front of a camera. you'll find him playing little
shows with just him and his acoustic guitar ripping it up.
Quote from: StephenGilesFor instance, we went to see the Yardbirds because they had this bloke Eric Clapton, followed by Jeff Beck, and before that Screaming Lord Sutch and the Savages who always had an amazing guitarist - just a guitar, lead and amp up loud.
You've seen Screaming Lord Such? Wow! Was Ritchie Blackmore with them at the time? That period gave us Beck, Page, Blackmore, Townsend, and Clapton (they all hung out at Marshall's music shop). On our side of the Atlantic, Hendrix and Bloomfield. Think the music industry will see those days again?
The industry as it is called is serving many purposes, one seems to be to cast a hate cloud over anything more than ten years old.
"I love the 70's and 80's being a prime example of this. It should be more aptly named: " I love to HATE the 70's"
It seems that spending habits has a great deal to do with popularity [or so 'they'd' have 'us' believe]...all a bunch of advanced marketing pploys IMO...need I adress examples?
Prime Time impotance is given to the air headed Trivails of Nick and Jessica's "Problems of the Stupor Rich". I don't understand these values...just a bit too "Amurican" for my tastes.
I like the Sex and Drugs thing of the 60's much better than the "Attain and Waste Material Possesions as fast as is inhumanly possible" that seems to have permeated almost every possible media at some level.
I believe Ppl sense that the Big Change no-one can control is coming, and instituting the use and or waste of everything is the only thing youngsters have left to do.
OUCH What a rant !!!
Guitars are too imprecise for todays technology oriented music...they don't really record or playback 'right' on digital anyway, and can be replicated by I's and 0's...there's some worms for ya !!!
Quote from: petemooreI like the Sex and Drugs thing of the 60's much better than the "Attain and Waste Material Possesions as fast as is inhumanly possible" that seems to have permeated almost every possible media at some level.
"In a world that what we want is only what we want until it's ours"
Doug
"You will do as you are told until the rights to you are sold."
-Zappa
Quote from: Peter Snowberg"You will do as you are told until the rights to you are sold."
-Zappa
Anytime I miss guitar solos, I just put on some Frank Zappa. Was just listening to a live concert from Helsinki, circa 1974. The band even does a Finnish tango!
Kerry M
If I quess right the Finnish tango piece might have been a song called "Satumaa" by composer Unto Mononen. But I may be wrong. Zappa´s 1988 Helsinki recording is said to be good too. It must have been some musician´s joke to play that song. Every dance band from Italy, Poland, Bulgaria, whatever that visited Finland that time had to learn to play some "local standard" songs and that tango melody was just one of those songs, indeed "rock" and "progressive rock" hated dance music like this.
Unto Mononen was a talented songmaker, he composed many local dance music hits. Maybe he had few things quite like Zappa: He was a perfectionist with his songs, he did words too. And he was a band leader. And was a guitarist, died early. Guitar was not so popular at finnish dance music at late fifties and very early sixties, but that was to chance of course.
I read a book about Unto Mononen and it was told that he played quitar solo numbers when he performed with his band from early fifties to sixties. The weather in Finland is very cold in winter. He had his guitar at he backseat of the car when they were on their way to play some dance music, and he always played "Tico Tico" to warm his fingers for the show. Here is some boring link bout finnish tango culture and picshttp://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/tangoeng.html
But back to the topic, and the "musicians joke" that maybe made Zappas band play that song that night: Same story, different words, audience is dumb and does not understand "good music", just play some popular horrible spam and they are happy.
I say good riddance to the masturbatory extended rock n roll guitar solo. While I can appreciate player skill as much as anyone, I like listening to songs rather than chops.
The likes of Hendrix made it fashionable to promote the technical ability of pop musicians, particularly guitarists. Which evolved from the recycled blues licks to fusion to metal gods of the 80s. But as far as I'm concerned, there's almost a inverse relationship between skill and quality music. The better equipped the guitarist was to say what they want, the less they actually have to say. Other than, "Hey, look how fast I am!" While these guys can play circles around me fast enough to make my head spin, they can't play a song to save their lives.
I find it hard to lament over the state of the record business. It's no more greedy or shortsighted now than it was 30 years ago. The record business has always been about business first. Period. Promoting a honest-to-god good act was as now, the exception rather than the rule. The age of the guitar solo was all about fashion.
I think now is the most amazing time to be a musician. The degree of independence, artistic control AND access to exposure is beyond what most folks could dream of twenty years ago. Record companies are just as crappy as they've always been. But more and more, musicians are finding that going their own way is a viable alternative.
after reading tims post i ahve to agree on many levels. but what do you do when you become known as someone who is a hired gun for that type of music.
i get called all the time to do that sort of stuff, and have played evertything from country to classical metal to blues and in between,
but i get bored easily i guess thats why i stick with what i do best
right on the money, Tim..
there ARE a few exceptions - and those are the ones that have REALLY risen above, or they were a gunslinger surrounded by musicians who knew how to make good songs (Early VH comes to mind).
But generally, yeah.. I remember all the neo-classical shredders in the late 80s.. jaw-dropping chops, but completely unlistenable. My musician friends were all trying to play it - and couldn't understand why I had NO interest, as I popped my headphones back on and listened to some Hoodoo Gurus.
"-)
I recently went through a heap of 70's/80's hits and it really made me think how contrived and pre-formatted the music is these days. The other thing which is missing is nice little guitar fills etc which broaden the sound of the track. The guitar stuff is all nuances and there's just no room for these in the commercial scene anymore - the record companies just want to churn or recipies which the lowest common denominator likes to eat.
You have to admit though, a good deal of 80's solos in popular music were pretty uninteresting and pre-formated themselves often you could tell it was time for all too predictable solo to hop in.
I noticed a few of the time-life re-releases of some of 70's hits had the guitar solo parts truncated from the end - what ar*holes. So there you go....
Eric Clapton Crossroads, Spoonful, Sushine
Jimmy Page Starway to Heaven, Since I've been loving you, Black Dog, etc.
Jeff Beck everything
Leslie West Mississpi Queen, Dream Sequence,
Van Halen You really got me, Get me Doctor
Hendrix everything
Billy Gibbons La Grange
George Harrison rythme
Joe Walsh
Pete Townsend
Chuch Berry
Johnny Winter
etc.
When you can match those, you can play a solo. 8)
Forgot, when you can match:
The first time you fell in Love
The first time you lost at love
The first time you realized you were mortal and were going to die.
Miles Davis
Blackmore Highway Star
Pearlmans Violin virtuosity
Maynard Fergusons High notes
Most Sax solos
The black girl that sings in "Gimme Shelter"
Roger Daultery's scream in Won't Get Fooled again
John Bohnam's drum fills
Honky Tonk Women
Prince doing the splits
Micheal Jackson Moonwalking
The first time you got laid
The wolf pack's howl
The Coyote's wails out back of the house
A Stallion Thundering thru the prairie
The Angus Bull bellowing across the fence
The Grand Teton Mountains
Most Sunsets and Sun Rises
Dropping the clutch in a 440 GTX
Michele Pfifer's lips
A Rocket headed for the cosmos
A lightning Strick at point blank range
An F5 Tornado 1 mile south of your house
A '68 Z-28 at 6000 RPM in 2nd gear
A 454 at 7000 RPM in 3rd gear with your stoned brother at the wheel
A Porsche Turbo at 100 mph on the local highway
A Black Fire
THE BEATLES
A snoot full of Wahocan
A shot of Jack Daniels
Bad Company
Great Balls of Fire
The first time you picked up a Les Paulo
The smell of a Marshal
Jim Brown runnig the football or Walter Payton going around the end
A 16 year old chearleader in mid air
Frodo getting the ring into the fires of Mordor
The sound my son makes when he is filled with joy
Sweet Thistel Pie
Then you can play a solo and I'll listen. 8)
Blackmore - Highway Star. I'll second that. Especially the Made in Japan live version. Got it all: tone, technique, gut playing, and maniac whammy bar work.
:D
WG you got it Bro,I can Dig it !
Don't buy no gangsta
Don't buy no Perry Como
Don't Buy no Julie Andrews
Don't buy no Pat Boone
Just give me RockNRoll Music
any'olway you choose it
Just gotta be RockNRoll music !
JD
Is the drummers for these new bands..we've been checking out to see what the kids are up to these days.
Guitar players a paddling Pegged Line6's.
Bass players..the one kid had 8x8 cab.
The Drummers are the ones 'playing' the song...albeit tharsh punk new genre.
The amout of energy coming off the drummers, and the interesting hybrid techniques looked like alot of fun to play.
Guitars played sorta like organs playing guitar or something...mostly finger across the bass side going Bo BO...BO Bo bo Bo, a wierd note or 5, then back to the rythm grind. Like Sex Pistols meet Pantera, but with 2 'modes' [fast and wierd], and only one tone, with very hard to distinguish attack or dynamics.
Being a guitar player and all, I'm sure because I understand it...just seemed too boringly easy to be remotely interesting, Dime a Dozen on the new guitar hacks... Them drummers...how do they figure that out...it would not be easy for me to sit behind a drum set and play song rythms that get Ppl Moshing out...I was shocked [I sould like an oldie...] beer sprayed on the floor and bodies flying/flopping all over...just about took her teeth out with that swing with the beer bottle there...I can't believe these places can exist these days...
Anyway now that you mention it I can rant about it..I don't know what those Line6 amps are all about like if I owned one.
The hope were lost for something interesting happening, after the third band did the same thing...Gargle Glong Glongar Gargle....along with " That Drummer" it didn't look easy hammering out mosh drums...seems like they'd have a guitar player somewhere who could figure out how to infuze some interesting passages, cameo tone appearances etc. etc. etc.
I don't know but the musicality went not only all the way downhill, but sounded like it was under water.
Quote from: NasseIf I quess right the Finnish tango piece might have been a song called "Satumaa" by composer Unto Mononen.
That is the one, and extra special thanks for the *Finnish content*.
Kerry M
I played guitar for Lord Sutch in 1968!
I replaced Blackmore when the Deep Purple deal went through.
I'm surprised that anybody knows about David Sutch.....it was a damn shame that he died.
My stay in Sutch's band was the most fun I've ever had in ANY GROUP before or since.
Brian.
Serious? You played with Sutch and the Savages? You're a piece of rock history then! Blackmore said he got his sense of showmanship from Sutch. Said the man was a true visionary for his time. He was ahead of his time in some ways, and doesn't get much credit for it.
speaking of solo's does anyone like my atte,pt's at one in my band... i thnk i got 2 bum notes but other than that its ok... check out;
http://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3U.m3u?ID=1037743&q=Hi or
http://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3U.m3u?ID=1037743&q=Lo
the difference being the first is better quality but longer download and the other is poor but fast.
its rather distorted but its cool for a single...
E.P's available from blabj?hotmail.com (replace ? with @ )
yeah tell me what you think :)
Hello Hello--
Yeah, Sutch did alot of gigs with Johnny Kidd and the Pirates [another HIGHLY underrated and influencial band] and between those two I got all I needed on "showmanship 101". I learned how to duck flying swords and spears, too!
I would say that between Screamin' Jay Hawkins, Johnny Kidd and the Pirates and Lord Sutch you've got every bit of rock & roll "theatre" that's been used ["ripped off"] 'til this day.
By the way, I used an old red Gibson ES-335 and Marshall amps [sometimes Fender......blecchhhh....] for most of Sutch's gigs.
I agree with Blackmore on everything he's said about Dave Sutch.......he started all this stuff back in the late 50's!!
Brian.
One classic example of a very famous band dumping those guitar solos is Metallica. They released their tenth album last year featuring tracks with just heavy riffs, heavy riffs and heavy riffs. Gone are the intense solos :( that put Kirk Hammett in the top 10 guitarists in a magazine. Feels like his guitars were silenced by the trend in the rock industry that were flooded with rap metal artists (I'm really confused on what to call that music genre :? ).
They always reason change. Yeah, change.
Money is the bottomline of everything. Basic rule in marketing: "Give the customers what they and you'll be saving your business for another day."
I just hope that more often, the money aspect is more on the side of the producer and the recording company, not on the artist themselves.
Quote from: Tim EscobedoI say good riddance to the masturbatory extended rock n roll guitar solo. While I can appreciate player skill as much as anyone, I like listening to songs rather than chops...
I think now is the most amazing time to be a musician. The degree of independence, artistic control AND access to exposure is beyond what most folks could dream of twenty years ago. Record companies are just as crappy as they've always been. But more and more, musicians are finding that going their own way is a viable alternative.
I consider myself lucky that I live in an area that has both GREAT college radio, but also an interesting music scene. I get exposed to a lot of great music that really helps to keep my creative batteries charged. The extended guitar solo in *pop* music can be pretty gratuitous, but in a more creative setting it's not doomed to the *maturbatory*. I really like My Morning Jacket's "It Still Moves" , which features solid songs and even a few guitar solos in a somewhat *classic* vein. There is a LOT of great music coming out of the so-called *indie scene*. Depending where you are, it might take more work to find, but it's out there.
Kerry M
I need a breathalizer on my keyboard. With the criteria I established, I won't be able to play solos anymore either :shock:
Brian that's cool. I used to listen to Screaming Lord Sutch on 8 track tapes that firiends had in the early '70's. I don't think we knew who was playing guitar. 8)
I don't want to hear anymore Chuck Berry knock offs. Jeff Beck can do more with one not than most folks can with 333. That's why it's important for me to have the most effective tone available, and why I'm here. :D
I grew up with all those ridiculously fast solos, and hope they never come back in fashion again.They where only pretentious, self serving, mechanized, sterile sonic babblings with little value.The exception to this was definitely VH,who never seemed to play just notes, but always injected sonic fury into his technical virtuosity.Clapton is a perfect example of the fact that it's not how many notes you play, but how much life you can breath into each and every one.Gilmour also, could make every hair on your head stand on end from one incredible, vibrating volcanic blast . "It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing".Solos should always be an integral part of a song's structure and not a separate entity to be gawked at,only a part of a song's complete sonic landscape.
i didn't read all the post.............but......
what kind of bands do you listen to?
old school is still kick'n
ozzy
priest
maiden
slayer
damageplan/pantera
peter framton
trower
frank marino
nugent
G3 tours
dream theater
deep purple
rick derringer
al dimiola
slash
d. zappa
alice cooper
just to name a few.
all these bands are active and kicking ass.
but i know the lead factor is on the back buner for a lot of bands, sucks to be them.
my band hits the seen may 31. i'll play some leads for yah :twisted:
peace,
- tom
Quote from: Tim EscobedoI say good riddance to the masturbatory extended rock n roll guitar solo. While I can appreciate player skill as much as anyone, I like listening to songs rather than chops.
The likes of Hendrix made it fashionable to promote the technical ability of pop musicians, particularly guitarists. Which evolved from the recycled blues licks to fusion to metal gods of the 80s. But as far as I'm concerned, there's almost a inverse relationship between skill and quality music. The better equipped the guitarist was to say what they want, the less they actually have to say. Other than, "Hey, look how fast I am!" While these guys can play circles around me fast enough to make my head spin, they can't play a song to save their lives.
I find it hard to lament over the state of the record business. It's no more greedy or shortsighted now than it was 30 years ago. The record business has always been about business first. Period. Promoting a honest-to-god good act was as now, the exception rather than the rule. The age of the guitar solo was all about fashion.
I think now is the most amazing time to be a musician. The degree of independence, artistic control AND access to exposure is beyond what most folks could dream of twenty years ago. Record companies are just as crappy as they've always been. But more and more, musicians are finding that going their own way is a viable alternative.
You may be right in many instances, but don't tell me that solos like Page's in Ten Years Gone don't add something wonderful to the song.
Quote from: teamodave
You may be right in many instances, but don't tell me that solos like Page's in Ten Years Gone don't add something wonderful to the song.
In the case of that song, I'd say the guitar playing is tasteful and inline with the tune. I would say, though, the whole song could have been trimmed by two minutes and been just as good, if not better. Not strictly a guitar solo problem, but related to the general musical self indulgence in fashion at the time.
I've no problem with guitar solos. But when music becomes a showcase for soloists, it turns into boring exercizes for the benefit of other soloists. I remember finding a record at the library when I was a teenager, a band with the linup of Al DiMeola, Stanly Clarke, Chick Corea, and Lenny White... Return To Forever. I figured a lineup like that should bear some good fruit. Jeezuz, was I wrong. Four guys with all the skill in the world and absolutely nothing to say, sounding like trashy throwaway background fusion from some bad 70s cop show. Or the metal "bands" of the 80s thrown together to showcase the guitar player's blinding speed, dazzling technique, and lineage to Paganini, with all the excitement and passion of listening to practice exercizes. Or songs that never end, mostly because the guitar players can't help themselves, like in "Freebird".
Whoa...Tim,
That gave me flashbacks to Frank Gambale's guitar "Workout" videos.
Writhing women in leotards interspersed with Frank's 2 hour modal wanking.
Somebody put on some Mike Campbell or Johnny Marr, please.
Quote from: csjThat gave me flashbacks to Frank Gambale's guitar "Workout" videos. Writhing women in leotards interspersed with Frank's 2 hour modal wanking.
Frank-Go-Baldy, the hardest working toupee on the Fuzak scene!
http://www.frankgambale.com/media/HBOWLBig/2.jpeg
Hi Brian Wenz! I lost touch with Sutch's antics for a few years after 65 or so, I saw him at a cinema in Potters Bar with the multi-sax line up, which I think included Ritchie Blackmore, ah - and the Lord Caesar Sutch & the Roman Empire fiasco at the Upper Cut Club in East London somewhere. Then nothing until around 1972. Funny you should have used a 335 in the Savages - it seemed part ot the uniform. Were you still doing Czardas and In the Hall of the Mountain King in the warm up set? I saw Sutch and a Savages line up which had Glen Stoner on guitar around 1978/9 - he was pretty good. Did you get to record with Sutch?
Hello StephenGiles--
Hall of the Mountain King !!! Crap, I'd forgotten all about that number!!
Yeah, we did it........I actually worked up another version of that stinker in a band I was in around the early 70's.
We recorded some stuff off-and-on [pretty hectic schedule with David!].
Come to think of it.....I don't remember ever picking up my money for those recordings! I think some of the later stuff made it onto the "Heavy Friends" album.
I always had a feeling that one of the reasons I got the gig after Blackmore was because I had a red 335 like his. [I'm pretty sure he used a Vox AC30 amp, too.]
Did you ever get a chance to see Mick Green play with Johnny Kidd?? He was a pretty big influence on me and a bunch of other guitarists....
I've actually got some video of Sutch somewhere [Mick Green is playing with him in one of 'em!]
I actually get pretty sad when thinking about that part of my life.... I never had so much fun and got so much valueable experience before or since. Where's the Fifth Earle of Harrow when we need 'em! ?
Brian.
What happened to guitar solos you ask? They were killed by a posse of five horrible and boring notes known as the minor pentatonic scale. A unique brand of justice.
the band i've been playing in for 6 years and the one before that for 4 years and even my high school band we never had a guitar solo in a single song. Just doesn't fit what we're doing (a genre of metal called math rock). A solo in that style just causes problems as most of the songs are written in weird time signatures like 9/8 and are very off time and janky... i think putting any kind of solo in there would just make the song fall apart or sound like shit.
I don't like solos in most styles of music, but in the right tune they are great. 80s metal and Slayer, where would those songs be without the solos?
A few thoughts come to mind:
1. The "music industry" does impose a very specific format, which I don't like. But, I grew up in the late 60's and in the 70's, so I am used to things sounding much different.
2. Every song does not need a solo. Sometimes a solo doesn't sound right in a song. But, I have heard other songs just begging for a solo, and there never was one. :(
3. Most people can't listen to people like Yngwie Malmsteen, Scott Henderson, Frank Gambale or the like because they don't fit into a format that they have been conditioned to hearing or can not/will not appreciate their talent. A lot of people consider the above to be excessive, etc. Sit down sometime and try to figure some of their pieces and you will see that they are a lot more complicated than they sound, not to mention that there are lots of great lines and melodies to be discovered if you are into jazz fusion like I am.
4. This song length business is B.S. If it takes five minutes to say what you really want to say, why should that be forbidden? Oh, that's a big NO-NO because that would cut into the 75% advertising to 25% music ratio. Total crap. The artist has to conform to whatever the label says has to be done. Not for me. I refuse to listen to commercial radio stations. I don't need to hear all of the freakin' "advertisments". I hate that with a passion!
5. If you want to hear guitar solos and music that doesn't have to fit in a box, then you have to listen to independently produced music. Almost everyone I listen to is in this category.
6. It really is a shame that the best guitar players in the world are virtually unknown by the average American, at least. If ask someone if they ever heard of Al Di Meola or Scott Henderson, the ask "Who"?
7. Then there is the instrumental vs. a song. If have never been able to figure out why people can't appreciate instrumental music. There is some incredible music out there that has never been heard because a music station would not play it. The only exception I can think of right now is Eric Johnson's "Cliffs of Dover". What is so horrible about instrumental music?!?
8. The masses have been conditioned as to what is supposed to be music. I'm sorry, but I do not accept this. Especially not today, because it seems that real musical talent is rare. Everything is cut and paste using ProTools. That IS NOT making music. But, I can respect someone going into a studio and laying down tracks without editing it to death.
I don't think guitar solos should be banned. But, there also doesn't have to be one in every song, either.
QuoteI have never been able to figure out why people can't appreciate instrumental music.
Easy... they can't sing along.
Silly as it sounds.. it's true.
"-)
Hi,
Quote from: MarkBQuoteI have never been able to figure out why people can't appreciate instrumental music.
Easy... they can't sing along.
Silly as it sounds.. it's true.
"-)
An oldies station my wife likes to listen to often states. "If you can’t hum them we won't play them".
Kind of boring!
Regards,
Will
Quote from: Paul Marossy
3. Most people can't listen to people like Yngwie Malmsteen, Scott Henderson, Frank Gambale or the like because they don't fit into a format that they have been conditioned to hearing or can not/will not appreciate their talent. A lot of people consider the above to be excessive, etc. Sit down sometime and try to figure some of their pieces and you will see that they are a lot more complicated than they sound, not to mention that there are lots of great lines and melodies to be discovered if you are into jazz fusion like I am.
Complexity does not equal quality. All the vocabulary in the world is of little use if you have nothing to say.
Quote from: Paul Marossy
4. This song length business is B.S. If it takes five minutes to say what you really want to say, why should that be forbidden? Oh, that's a big NO-NO because that would cut into the 75% advertising to 25% music ratio. Total crap. The artist has to conform to whatever the label says has to be done. Not for me. I refuse to listen to commercial radio stations. I don't need to hear all of the freakin' "advertisments". I hate that with a passion!
I have no problem with long tunes. I do have a problem with taking a succinct four minute tune and padding it out to six minutes.
I've sometimes wonder at the stroke of brilliance it was to mercifully keep a tune like "Little Wing" or "Crosstwon Traffic" to managable length. I think had Hendrix been free to indulge any more on those tunes may have diminished the overall effectiveness.
Quote from: Paul Marossy
7. Then there is the instrumental vs. a song. If have never been able to figure out why people can't appreciate instrumental music. There is some incredible music out there that has never been heard because a music station would not play it. The only exception I can think of right now is Eric Johnson's "Cliffs of Dover". What is so horrible about instrumental music?!?
Instrumentals face a bigger challenge, no doubt. But when they're good, people like them. When they're not, they drop out of sight faster than last year's fashions. The instrumental is more ambiguous. In some ways, the instrumental has to be even more simplistic than the simplest lyric to be successful, with a good enough "hook" to bend the ear of the listener. After all, Kenny G made a career playing mostly instrumentals.
Quote from: Paul Marossy
8. The masses have been conditioned as to what is supposed to be music. I'm sorry, but I do not accept this. Especially not today, because it seems that real musical talent is rare. Everything is cut and paste using ProTools. That IS NOT making music. But, I can respect someone going into a studio and laying down tracks without editing it to death.
I take a pretty broad view of general musical tastes. People like what they like. There really is no why. Cut and paste music isn't new. It's just easier than it used to be. And some of the most creative music I've heard in recent years is just such music. Stuff that would have been impossible twenty years ago. I view the computer as the logical extension to lined staff paper and pencil at the piano keyboard. It's a medium that marries audio and visual feedback more effectively than it's ever been done before. The musical talent is still out there. It just no longer belongs solely to the instrumentalists.
"Complexity does not equal quality. All the vocabulary in the world is of little use if you have nothing to say."
True. But, quality, too, is very subjective. :)
"I've sometimes wonder at the stroke of brilliance it was to mercifully keep a tune like "Little Wing" or "Crosstwon Traffic" to managable length. I think had Hendrix been free to indulge any more on those tunes may have diminished the overall effectiveness."
I'll agree that sometimes a very long drawn out song can start to grate on your nerves. But, then you get songs like "Comfortably Numb", which are kind of long, but nobody seems to complain... :wink:
"Cut and paste music isn't new. It's just easier than it used to be. And some of the most creative music I've heard in recent years is just such music.
I'll agree that things like Stereo Lab does are cool. And it is creative. But, could it be played live? I doubt it. Not without a computer or something. Then it's a computer regurgitating something and playing it. It's music, but anyone can play something, cut and paste it into loops or whatever and then have some kind of medium play it back. I think that too many people use the cut and paste approach as a crutch, or they have to use it because their musical abilities are lacking. Just my opinion.
For myself, It comes down to one thing: Do I want to be a Guitar player or do I want to be a Musician? Is what I'm playing for the benefit of the SONG?? If not, I need to stop and par down. The older I get, it seems the old saying of less is more becomes more and more relevant.
Now, dont get me wrong, this isn't an anti solo rant. In Fact, on my bands newest album, 75% of the songs have solos. Its all about being tasteful. Also, wanking is an enjoyable thing. BUT, usually only in my practice room or with the occasional bar gig. I have found it more satisfying to be an integral part of a well oiled machine that produces music. Music is definitly created for the self enjoyment but, if in a band that plays in front of people, its is almost more so created for the listener.
It seems that nearly 90% of people in these parts dont care for elongated solos and jamming on the same three chords hour half an hour. And to an extent, if your not playing for the enjoyment of the audience, who are you playing to but yourself?? No one, including myself, wants to see that. Get off the stage and go back home. It seems this area where I come from is consumed in guys reliving their childhood in front of everybody playing some skynrd song or a 12 bar blues for an hour straight. Thats probably one of the reasons there is no scene here thats worth a crap. (breathe.....stop ranting.....) Also, there is more to life( for me anyway) than rock 'n' roll. Take some time to explore. Lotsa good stuff out there.
Bottom Line: I wish there were more people interested in being a musician rather than being a guitar player. In the mean time, long live solos..
(p.s. I hope this was relevant....)
Quote from: Paul MarossyI'll agree that things like Stereo Lab does are cool. And it is creative. But, could it be played live? I doubt it. Not without a computer or something. Then it's a computer regurgitating something and playing it. It's music, but anyone can play something, cut and paste it into loops or whatever and then have some kind of medium play it back. I think that too many people use the cut and paste approach as a crutch, or they have to use it because their musical abilities are lacking. Just my opinion.
Any instrument, whether it be guitar, sax or computer (yes it an be an instrument!) is only as good as the person playing it. There ARE musicians taking new technology to the work place and they ARE using this technology live. You can change/edit/marmalise samples and loops in real time and this CAN be creative.
David Behrman is someone who has been using computers since the year dot and is a classic example of how someone with a LOT of knowhow can create truly amazing music that NOT everyone can write (though his interactive stuff is something that anyone can participate in).
http://www.lovely.com/bios/behrman.html
PS What's wrong with 'anyone' being creative?
DaveB,
I hear what you are saying. That's a good point that you make. I guess it boils down to the reasons why you play. If you are playing covers/original tunes for an audience, then noodling should be kept to a minimum if the song doesn't lend itself to soloing. I also am of the mind that most of the time, the less that you say, the better.
But, I also have to say that some people have kept true to their own vision and have not wanted to do anything else (people pleasing). That is what makes them what they are. I can really respect that. Either you like them or you don't. I can also appreciate playing things that people want to hear, if that's your thing.
Myself, I have always liked the experimentalist pushing the envelope more than things that are played on the radio.
"You can change/edit/marmalise samples and loops in real time and this CAN be creative."
I'm not saying that it is not creative... I just don't consider that to be music, in the classical view. I guess I should have said that to start. :oops:
Anyhow, can they play it just like the record in a live situation? I think that's what people would expect.
BTW, what the heck is "marmalising"!?
Quote from: Paul MarossyBTW, what the heck is "marmalising"!?
I just asked my partner if she'd heard of this word and she thought I'd lost my marbles too! :D
Making marmalade out of something, i.e. chopping it all up and mixing it together? (one of those words you use without thinking too much about the meaning).
Marmalising is a perfectly cromulent word.
Oh yes, of course. Marmalade, marmalising... is that kind of like head cheese? :lol:
OK, Tim. What does cromulent mean? Never heard of that word before...
Quote from: Paul MarossyOK, Tim. What does cromulent mean?
Weren't they the bug-eyed things in Star Trek?
Ha! :lol:
It's from a Simpsons episode.
http://www.diarytown.com/cromulent/archives/000793.html
The scene involves Ms Krabappel wondering out loud about a seemingly made up regional word. When another teacher retorts that "it's a perfectly cromulent word", yet another seemingly made up regional word of dubious validity.
I guess you had to be there.
Quote from: Paul Marossy"You can change/edit/marmalise samples and loops in real time and this CAN be creative."
I'm not saying that it is not creative... I just don't consider that to be music, in the classical view. I guess I should have said that to start. :oops:
I'm not sure how triggering a sample is fundamentaly different than banging an animal skin or plucking a string or pressing keys on a keyboard? When I pluck a string, I'm triggering an *event* that is no more music by definition than someone triggering a sample. The Mellotron was an example of sample triggering in a *classical* sense. It's up to the person doing the triggering to make it musical. I came up in the *Virtuoso* era, and I can play that style well (and musically I hope!), but I never equated virtuosity with musicality. I've heard DJs with a single turntable be WAY more musical than a lot of guitar players, and people with laptops make some truly creative music live. I consider them virtuosos AND musical.
Kerry M
Hmmm, I've got a vague feeling I got it from a kids program I watched when a child.
http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/tombstone/890/potty.htm
It seems to be a Merseyside saying
"Marmalise: to chastise severely. Shaw writes that the word is a mixture of murder and paralyze. All no doubt sweetened by a bit of marmalade.
Source: SHAW I, LS1"
So to marmalise somthing is to murder it/smash it to pieces (in a nice way?). Something you could do with loops/samples... :D
Many of historys greatest albums would never had been releast if the artist was looking for a contract today...thats the point i was trying to make
...just imagine...A fat guy walks in to a large recorcompany. he says he want to make a record with a Broadway musical-type of rock....the songs are great, but this is not what anyone has asked for....would he be signed?....Meatloafs "Bats out of hell" is still selling thousands and thousands of records each year...or how about this..well established band in the bluesrock genre looses their leadguitar player, hires two girls for the vocals and changes genre..what recordcompany today would NOT kick them out?...who doesnt like the songs on "Roumors" by Fleetwood Mac?...
Bjorn Ulveus and Benny Andersson where two well loved artists here in sweden in the Late 60's. after their careers went to a halt, they joined forces...the recordcompanies at first all said " it worked once, never twice...give up.."....anyone heard of ABBA?..
I am sure you can come upp with a list too...
musical brilliance doesnt need to have anything to do with technical abillity, but it might be helpfull sometimes...
...and who here doesnt enjoy all the long solos on all those Pink Floyd albums?
.so..if you dont like solos, and you dont want your guitar to sound like a guitar....why oh why didnt you pick another instrument?
Johan
"I'm not sure how triggering a sample is fundamentally different than banging an animal skin or plucking a string or pressing keys on a keyboard? When I pluck a string, I'm triggering an *event* that is no more music by definition than someone triggering a sample. The Mellotron was an example of sample triggering in a *classical* sense. It's up to the person doing the triggering to make it musical. I came up in the *Virtuoso* era, and I can play that style well (and musically I hope!), but I never equated virtuosity with musicality."
Well, put that way, triggering a sample is kind of like plucking a string. But, when you let the computer do the playing, I fail to see how it is the musician doing it anymore. That's the point I'm trying to make. Kind of like Tomita doing "The Planets" solely via synthesizer controlled by a computer. It is cool music, but it's really more computer programming than someone performing a piece of music. I do think it is cool when someone uses something like a Roland VG-8 to make their guitar sound like a horn (Pat Metheny) or a trumpet (Al Di Meola). But the guitarist is still playing an instrument, it just mimics the sound of another instrument.
Virtuosity doesn't equal musicality. Agreed. But, there are a few who can do both. For some reason people love to hate Steve Vai, for example. Granted, not everything he did was tasteful, or even good. But he has recorded some killer stuff, too. So why does everyone seem to hate him? I think it is because when a "virtuoso" like him does something in bad taste, then he gets labeled as a wanker. I don't think that is fair to just lump all of those "virtuosos" together. They are not all bad nor are they all unmusical. That's all I'm trying to say.
QuoteFor some reason people love to hate Steve Vai, for example. Granted, not everything he did was tasteful, or even good. But he has recorded some killer stuff, too.
Every time I listen to "For The Love Of God", I get chicken skin & I tear up & get all emotional. It's incredible. If that piece of music doesn't move you, you're unmovable. For a larf, I like"Kill The Guy With The Ball" also. Steve Vai doesn't suck, however, Guy Mann-Dude does! :wink:
RDV
RDV-
I like the Ultra Zone. That's a pretty cool album. Ever heard it?
I'll second "For the Love of God." Aboslutely incredible. I've got the G3 (Satriani, Vai, Eric Johnson) live DVD, and Vai's performance of this song is amazing. My favorite part is a point in the song where he's doing pull-offs down the neck, and when he reaches his "target" note at the end of his descending run he does a hammer-on and uses his right hand to just point at that fret and he smiles at it.
(His "Attitude Song" is also very impressive, as Mike Keneally plays along with Vai note-for note, even on the dive bombs and crazy noises.) Steve Vai is excellent, with unbelievable musicianship if you ask me (or if you don't). :)
Alex
Quote from: Paul MarossySteve Vai, for example. Granted, not everything he did was tasteful, or even good. But he has recorded some killer stuff, too. So why does everyone seem to hate him? I think it is because when a "virtuoso" like him does something in bad taste, then he gets labeled as a wanker.
I think "Steve Vai" has just become a synonym for "The Virtuoso". I saw him on his first tour with Zappa (when he had blue hair!), and he was nice enough to answer my letters ( pre email days) so I certainly don't hate him. Then again I liked that Return To Forever stuff Tim metioned! I got a good laugh out of that. As I said, that is my background, and I can play the 4th mode of the demented scale at 150 BPM and all. I like extended solos by true improvisers and listen to a lot of jazz. Hell, I listened to *Heart Of Sunrise* from Yessongs 10 times in the last two weeks (minidisc of vinyl even!) But I also embrace the punk/garage/hip-hop/indie/DIY aspect of music and can see why traditional virtuosity can be viewed with disdain. Especially if it gets in the way of a good pop song.
Kerry M
http://guitar.about.com/library/bl100greatest.htm