Saw this on ebay - is it ok to advertise it as a TS-808 clone ???
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=22669&item=3727141846&rd=1
I would have to say no it is not legal. Since they are using someone elses name it is pretty blatant.
I think describing it as TS-808 clone is ok. Naming it a "tubescreamer" or "TS-808" isn't. I kinda think Ibanez has those trademarked. He didnt exactly water-down the name or trademark.
It does have nicely done graphics. In this day and age, he could have at least given her breast augmentation. BTW, I'll have to count next time, I don't rememeber over 100 parts?
I'd say that based on the graphics, it is not legal. It does not say 'clone' on the pedal, it says that it is a Tubescreamer TS-808 Overdrive Pro. If Ibanez decided it wanted to mess with small fry like this, they'd have a case.
I'd have to agree with Fretwire - he's just calling it a clone and not actually using the name - it appears. There are a few things I would question - one being the already mentioned 100 parts count. I don't remember how parts in the TS either but 100 seems a little excessive. Unless he means he's tested 100 chips.
Also, the builder states "All the parts are exactly the same as those used in the original TS808" - well technically they're not - those are 1% resistors and there's a silver mica cap in there. That may be nitpicking, as the newer parts probably make it better, but they're not "exact". Also, Hendrix didn't use an 808 - more nitpicking?
On the positive side (I don't want to sound like I'm slagging the builder he or she definately has more guts than I do) It looks like a good build. Nice construction, good layout, good parts, beautiful graphics and at that price it's certainly cheaper than a reissue 808. One problem may be the on/off toggle instead of a DPDT. Still, it appears to be a solid piece of work. I wish my boxes looked that good. The added 9V supply is a nice touch.
AL
i think more importantly, though, its not only illigal, but unethical. Ibanez is reissuing the TS-808, also with the same chip. He's selling it at about the same price. Besides the fact that this "clone" is "boo-teek," I dont think its right to do that...
Hmmm?? After some closer reading - it may be illegal. It states "exactly" for the parts - that may be an issue. Not that a million other people haven't done the same build - but, blatantly stating what's in it may stir up some problems.
AL
Thanks guys, pretty much what I thought on the legality side. I also noticed the parts count and Hendrix reference.
The guy has used an aluminium case (from Maplin ???) exactly the same as the ones I have - they fold like paper when you use a stomp switch which I guess is why he used a toggle switch. Nice graphics though :)
Al, I should have worded my post better. I meant it was alright to call it a TS-808 clone in his ad. He is labeling it right on his box as Tubescreamer and TS-808. Ibanez owns those trademarks.
Like Ed said, they could torture him legally. Luckily, the same beancounters that decide it cost too much to make the pedals truebypass, also decide if it's worth it financially to proceed after small fry like him. Could you imagine if the corporate lawyers had no restraints? Out of boredom they could decide to legally pummel the poor bastard for one lousy clone.
No offence guys, but no idiot is gonna believe that that is a real Ibanez TS-808. It just doesn't *look* like an 808 :) That's enough for me.
Right now where was I.... Oh yeah Leisure Suit Larry... Version 1.0 :mrgreen: The very first....
Perhaps worse, though, in a sense...is that JD SLeep's PCB I spy in one of those pictures?
Ben, that's one of the exact reasons many corporations sue. They will protect the image and name association of their product. MacDonalds does it all the time, even if it does not resemble their products. They do not want anyone confusing their products and trademarks with anything.
If this guy did it enough, they would shut him down. Ibanez wants you to remember that the Tubescreamer is the green pedal SRV used, not a pedal with a chick on top.
Quote from: Fret WireCould you imagine if the corporate lawyers had no restraints
They don't, if someone else is paying the bills! The lawyers for Roland USA threatened me over the Frostwave SpaceBeam (infrared theremin). gave up when I pointed out prior art (forty yrars prior..) 8)
Quote from: SamuelPerhaps worse, though, in a sense...is that JD SLeep's PCB I spy in one of those pictures?
Really? I didn't recognize it. I just thought of something. It's a nice extra that he includes a wall wart, but...including an adjustable model is a mistake. The buyer accidently sets it too high, fries something, then blames the builder. Pedal manufactuers sell fixed power supplys to match the voltage of the pedal. And include plenty of warnings about using their's and only their supply's, as well as polarity symbols.
Quote from: Fret WireBen, that's one of the exact reasons many corporations sue. They will protect the image and name association of their product. MacDonalds does it all the time, even if it does not resemble their products. They do not want anyone confusing their products and trademarks with anything.
If this guy did it enough, they would shut him down. Ibanez wants you to remember that the Tubescreamer is the green pedal SRV used, not a pedal with a chick on top.
True, the thought hadn't occured to me... Man I really am not suitable for law school. That's why I like electronics :mrgreen:
Guess I wasn't thinking on a big enough scale. Yup, it's time for my coffee. Long day at school, not using my real name and everything... :mrgreen: Ok time for coffee now... Bye! *turns off PC*
Samuel caught it, it's not legal because he/she is using my artwork without my permission. My international legal team will be mounting a multi-million dollar (pound) law suit against this perpetrator.
JD
haha - I demand a finder's fee of the millions you sue for, JD. Also, why in the world does (s)he have the resistors standing on end? The layout is made for flat resistors....weird.
Is that your insignia right under the diodes? "Screamer". Good looking out Samuel! 8)
Looks like he's directly attempting to profit from using Ibanez Tubescreamer reputation directly as a marketing strategy.
I wouldn't be surprized at all if they persue this guy, just to set an example.
I think he's setting himself up as a perfect candidate for legal action...ya let one get away with it, and ten others will follow suit.
Selling a tubescreamer without saying TS, is probably a slower process than using the name...how many guitarists that buy booteek stuff would recognize 'OA feedbackloop clipper' for what it is?
What do you think about the legality of using a catch phrase like: "The same circuit as SRV used"...these words are the best I could muster to describe a TS circuit without actually typeing TS or Tubescreamer.
By the way is "TS" also copyrighted or trademarked?
It would be extremely difficult, in court, to establish that the ad 'wasn't using the Tubescreamer legacy as a selling point for his copy. The best I think he can hope for is that they don't see it, or for some reason or other choose not to mess with the small fry. I say Good Luck!!! :roll:
Quote from: SamuelAlso, why in the world does (s)he have the resistors standing on end? The layout is made for flat resistors....weird.
Maybe to hide the fact that he's using JD's pcb layout. :?:
We could be real assholes and turn him in. But then again that would be really well and truly evil :twisted:
Is there a possibility it would be confused with the real deal? Likely not. The low-res PCB layout on the component side is a pretty blatant difference between this and a "professional" product. Besides, can you even begin to count the number of fairly clearly professional production models that purport to be just like the 808 but better?
Quote from: SamuelPerhaps worse, though, in a sense...is that JD SLeep's PCB I spy in one of those pictures?
Wow....what a blatant rip-off! The guy is too lazy to make his own PCB layout, and ignorant enough to show it off in such a manner?
Go get him JD!
To me the real unethical issue is using Albert King and Jimi to sell a TS clone! Albert would have just squashed a TS with his thumb and gone on playing. And Little Wing with a TS?! <shudder> Geez, it's bad enough that people think that a TS will get them *SRV* tone, just because he used one in front one the fifteen or so amps he was using!
Kerry M
The funniest thing about this thread- The good probability that the perp (legal jargon) is reading it! Its not like theres a huge population of builders on the web. I found thie place within hours of starting my first build, so Im sure hes lurking... Hell some of you may have offered him help.
Audioguy
He may be talking with you now, will the real clone head step forward and take his PUBLIC LASHING with unexzubirated Zeal,
JD
Formerly Known As John Davidson
not to stir it up more~
but doesn't that look alot like JD Sleeps (GGG) ts-808 layout? PCB pirating bothers me more than stealing the ibanez name..
edit: whoops! i guess ishould have read all of the posts 1st.. sorry!:oops:
Methinks components on foil side = etched the damn pcb backwards!
Only just yesterday I did the same thing.
You know what we say in Texas,{ NEW YORK CITY} { GET THE ROPE}
All Jokin aside, The Ethic's if doing such is not a good Idea, What if you looked on the webb and saw one of your Idea's being sold to the public,
I don't think you would like it, same with some of the guy's here that ask you not to post thier work, I don't blame anybody for protecting thier rights as a designer, we were shooting a PBS tape in Lubbick Texas and we were filming the Tour Buss coming in on Buddy Holly Ave. never noticed it but there was a hand painted scene of B/H and the Cricket's on the side of a resturant, I had to go over and get a hand ritten permission agreement with the artist to keep from getting sued for infringement's,
Someone should be nice to the guy and warn him, He may not know !
JD
Artist Formerly Know as John Davidson
8) 8) 8)
Is there any legality with using the Tube Screamer name to sell a PCB?
JD does just that.
What about say taking a PCB layout and deriving another from it or even straight copying it and then selling that derived PCB layout as your own?
Isn't what the Phase100 at JD's site is?
Sorry JD it isn't anything personal I just think you ought to give the same respect to Jim Dunlop that you expect people to give to you.
Don't you think?
My international legal team has contacted the seller and he has ceased and desisted. Seems to be a reasonable guy, I guess he just didn't know any better.
JD
That's the best possible outcome.
Nice looking box....but the board looks kind of odd.
Check out the Supersized version:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3727141846&indexURL=2&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting
Some of the leads don't appear to go through the center of the pads, and what's up with the snow-white color?
No offense intended to the builder, should they be lurking; I'm just ever curious about build techniques.
Could be either perfboard or the 4ms pedals "glue layout and reversed layout to either side of a piece of cardboard" technique for using a PCB design without using a PCB....
BillyJ,
Yes, I walk a fine line. A few of my layouts are _very_ similar to the originals. Everyone should keep in mind that I'm only talking about copyright of pcb artwork here, that is the issue. Even though those layouts are similar, they are not the same artwork and were drawn by me from scratch. I know this sounds ridiculous but since it is original artwork, I'm claiming my own copyright. I do feel this is a dodgey practice and I will work to redraw or remove these few layouts that I have that are similar to originals. BTW, a German company has done this to Scott Swartz with his PT80 and AD3208 PCB designs, and is selling the PCBs and boxes with no regard or acknowlegdement to Scott.
Someone else mentioned my use of trademark names:
Yes, I need to review my site for use of trademark names and acknowledge the names as trademarks were needed. Maybe think up some catchy "original" name for each of them as R.G. does on his clones.
JD Sleep
i like his aluminum knobs :-D
Im too cheep to buy them. Perhaps i should splurge on my next pedal :-D
JDsleep~
on the topic of renaming your projects/pedals..
it might be a cool to come up with a few new names for each pedal, and post "polls" so the forum users could vote on the names of your projects..
it just might make for some really fun/hilarious interactive threads..
jus an idea tho..
Wow this pedal is so wrong on many accouts, but it can be fixed. I'm sure ODScreamer or something like that is better than your title. Secondly, try to do something better about the board. Either pay JD some liscensing, or make your own layout. Make the pedal higher quality. Get a sturdy box and a stompswitch, not toggle, otherwise noone will buy other pedals from you. Thats my advice, and yes, as it is right now, your pedal is illegal.
"The seller ended this listing early because of an error in the listing. " :lol:
Just for the record I only noticed the item, it aint me selling it :o
toggle switch on a stomp box? Major bad.
Multi-voltage wallwart? asking for trouble.
Shonky soldering, have a look at the wire links on the PCB just above and below the 4558! And that's just the obvious shonky!
Input/output on the wrong sides.
He/she has a fascination with capital Ts.
QuoteIf their not up to the job they go straight in the bin.
No wonder they're charging so much!
nitpicky enough for ya?
Quotenot to stir it up more~
but doesn't that look alot like JD Sleeps (GGG) ts-808 layout? PCB pirating bothers me more than stealing the ibanez name..
It is, indeed, my layout, licensed for production to GGG.