http://www.lppedais.ubbi.com.br/schedule.htm
it's in portuguese, but you can tell what he's doing allright.
Fp
I think maybe you should tell him a link to your site's would be fine, but please don't just rip me off page for page, what's a guy to do ?
I think some people just don't understand that you just can't do crap like that,:roll:
JD
i dont understand what the problem is...and what this guy is doing wrong.
it seems to me as if this would generate more business by directing
people to a site that sells p.c. boards. am i missing something here?
if that was my site, that he's directly linking to, i'd be grateful
because that would indeed generate more business for me.
what's the big deal?
Very,very strange.
Ed
The deal is he's selling built pedals, which is a direct violation of the copyright because he's making profit from the info available at the sites.
Fp
Oh well, sorry for my first post. :oops: I didn't click and "read" (Portugese?) further. I thought the guy was just linking.
Time to call the DIY police and arrest that guy :evil:
zener and others, I'm not being paranoid (although I should be by now :P)
If you browse around (and/or use a translator) you'll see that this list is the list of PEDALS that he will build for you, and that you should email him for a quote.
Fp
ps: I thought it was clear enough so that it didn't need explanation, but I just realized that knowing spanish helps in understanding portuguese.
This is what their "ordering" page reads (according to google translator)
Lp Pedals
The budget is made in the following way:
* The customer chooses the effect and the desired mark
* Its option orders an email making
* The technician checks the availability of the parts
* We send its budget
The pedals are well cheaper than of the vendidos ones in the store and its functioning is the same.
The payment is made by bank deposit
zener, this is a serious matter: Violating international copyright laws.
It's sad to see how people don't understand that the information posted at our sites is NOT free, it costs lots of time and money and is provided with fair use restrictions.
I'll go chill... Maybe RG will have something to say after lunch :)
Fp
Weren`t there a few lawyers(is that spelled correctly?)on this forum?
Maybe they can help out here?
Ed
Those guys just keep on doing it thinking that the authors of copyrighted materials are very far away from their place. They should be dealt accordingly somehow.
Quote from: Fp-www.Tonepad.comzener and others, I'm not being paranoid (although I should be by now :P)
If you browse around (and/or use a translator) you'll see that this list is the list of PEDALS that he will build for you, and that you should email him for a quote.
Fp
ps: I thought it was clear enough so that it didn't need explanation, but I just realized that knowing spanish helps in understanding portuguese.
This is what their "ordering" page reads (according to google translator)
Lp Pedals
The budget is made in the following way:
* The customer chooses the effect and the desired mark
* Its option orders an email making
* The technician checks the availability of the parts
* We send its budget
The pedals are well cheaper than of the vendidos ones in the store and its functioning is the same.
The payment is made by bank deposit
oh i see....yeah, i just thought he was just putting links on his site, like
schematics or something....i didnt know he was building stuff
like that....that is pretty rotten. im not up on my portugese.
couldnt tell that's what he was doing. that's sad.
what are the laws concerning this in portugal?
if he is still buying his stuff from Jd sleep, then it might not be a blessing in disguise......he even might be j.d.'s biggest customer... :lol:
but if he's doing it all himself (pcb boards and parts), then it's really rotten.
does he use the tonepad PCB layouts for his cloning?
My apologie's Casey, I forget some people No Comprende Espan'ol,
My bad, I shoulda told you what the guy was doing on this site,if it was just a link, no harm, But to sell someother person's property without permission is stealing no matter which way you look at it, you would not want me to steal and sell your pickup or your car, persnal property is something that belong's to you, if I steal it, your not gonna be happy, just like RG, Doug, Joe, RVD would not be happy if thet seen me down here in Texas selling there pedal's without permission, L believe in sharin Idea's as much as you do, I have a bunch of scanned Schematic's that are hard and old to come by, if they're all good for the go i will donate them to your archive, But to take somethin for gain that is not your's is stealing in the Court's here,
I've rode a Harley all my Life and it use to be a very popular thing, to Steal a Harley, well it made me not like those kind of people very much,
JD
Quote from: JDMy apologie's Casey, I forget some people No Comprende Espan'ol,
My bad, I shoulda told you what the guy was doing on this site,if it was just a link, no harm, But to sell someother person's property without permission is stealing no matter which way you look at it, you would not want me to steal and sell your pickup or your car, persnal property is something that belong's to you, if I steal it, your not gonna be happy, just like RG, Doug, Joe, RVD would not be happy if thet seen me down here in Texas selling there pedal's without permission, L believe in sharin Idea's as much as you do, I have a bunch of scanned Schematic's that are hard and old to come by, if they're all good for the go i will donate them to your archive, But to take somethin for gain that is not your's is stealing in the Court's here,
I've rode a Harley all my Life and it use to be a very popular thing, to Steal a Harley, well it made me not like those kind of people very much,
JD
yeah, totally cool.... yup, that's stealing for sure because those layouts
belong to mr. sleep and the guys at tonepad.....those are their layouts
that they designed and sweated over.... they intend for people to
learn something and it's a sacrifice on their part in the name of
education....then a fella comes and uses that for his own selfish
gain, then that's a real bummer.
i do believe though that if someone (like myself) has an old article
or schematic that i did not design or come up with on my site,
it's fair game. in other words, feel free to download and place on
your site any of the old school schems i have on my site....as long
as im not putting anything up that is still copyrighted or patented....
or someone elses work....then it's fair game for others. i have some
schems from the 60's. they are not my work or my designs, the copyright has ran out on them, and they are not feeding anyone's
family.....then, somewhere around here, some 12 year old kid is
gonna see that old school fuzz ive got on my site, build it, and learn
something in the process. this happened to me a few years back
when i built jack orman's son of screamer...i got bit by the diy
effects bug. i had more people ask me about that pedal. then
all of a sudden some friends around me were asking me how to
build pedals...
Quote from: Fp-www.Tonepad.comzener, this is a serious matter: Violating international copyright laws.
It's sad to see how people don't understand that the information posted at our sites is NOT free, it costs lots of time and money and is provided with fair use restrictions.
I'll go chill... Maybe RG will have something to say after lunch :)
Fp
i couldnt tell what he was doing because it was all in portugese.
i understand now....
yup, it's a bummer.
maybe someone can email him and kindly ask him to
cease and desist. sometimes a gentle question will get
a gentle response....rather than threatening to sue him.
maybe ill go do that.
This is bad :(. And to me it's bad too because the guy lives here in Brazil. If I can help in anything with him, e-mail me and I will do my best to help.
Well, I’m aBrazilian guy, and, of course, I understand very well Portuguese. I can’t say the same about my English, so my appologies for any mistake.
Fp is corrected in his translation. These guy ( by the way, this is a Brazilian site, not from Portugal) build and sell the effects listed in his home-page.
Even not taking in care the legal approach, I’m totally against the non-authorizated use of intelectual / commercial proprieties. And it is in accordance with this my point of view that I would like to help you in this case. I don’t know how if is there anything I could do it or even if you want or need some help.
I’m not a lawyer, I know there are some troubles concerning the official Brazilian law about international intelectual propriety and trademark, but I could try to find an expert in the subject .
As a first idea, the “LP Pedais†site uses the Ubbi ( www.ubbi.com.br ) services and I believe what the guy is doing is not in accordance to the general Ubbi rules. In the Ubbi page ( at the bottom ) is possible to link to Ubbi Argentina, Mexico and Spain, if you understand Spanish ( it’s very similar to Portuguese ) you can conclude by yourself if a contact with Ubbi could help in anything.
I really enjoy this forum and I’m very thankfull to the sites that share effects schematics, PCB’s lay-out and so on, I have good moments building as a hobby some pedals and hate the possibility that all this kind of things could be over due attitudes just like of this guy.
Erio
Just out of interest, I wonder how the guys at Boss feel knowing that tonepad/ggg are selling a pcb that is actually advertised on the site as a 'Boss SD-1' ... or MXR with their Phase 45 & Phase 90 tradenames ?
This (and other threads we have had) smacks of double standards to me.
Tin hat on :oops:
here is an email i wrote the portugese (brazillian) guy:
"dear sir -
there are a few gentlemen who are upset at the way that you are linking
up to their sites, and are building their designs for your gain and profit.
they are wanting you to stop doing this as this is in violation of
copyright laws, and seems to them to be unethical. i told them that
rather than threatening lawsuits, that it is more proper to kindly
ask for you to cease and desist in linking to their sites, and using
their pcb layouts and designs for your own gain and profit.
it's better to walk in integrity on this type of venture. i am sure
that you are probably a talented effects builder that can come up
with your own layouts of older pedals. i know that taking other's
designs seems a little easier than designing your own, but the potential
trouble that can arise out of this on your part could be rather costly.
i am sure that you mean no harm, but would you please not conduct
your business in this fashion.
thank you. "
maybe this will be enough for him to stop.....
Quote from: TorchyJust out of interest, I wonder how the guys at Boss feel knowing that tonepad/ggg are selling a pcb that is actually advertised on the site as a 'Boss SD-1' ... or MXR with their Phase 45 & Phase 90 tradenames ?
This (and other threads we have had) smacks of double standards to me.
Tin hat on :oops:
this is a good point.....i am not for sure what their justification is
for this.
fair question, that deserves a kind and proper answer, especially
if they are not doing anything wrong. you shouldn't have to
wear a "tin hat."
JD, for one thing you can get your web guys to mod your site so that outside links redirect to the main page (i.e. 'referring page was outside of domain then show page x, otherwise show required page'). Then, on the main page put something in the appropriate language that explains what the other guy is doing is wrong.
Mike
We`ve got tonite`s 1st winner:
Quote from: TorchyJust out of interest, I wonder how the guys at Boss feel knowing that tonepad/ggg are selling a pcb that is actually advertised on the site as a 'Boss SD-1' ... or MXR with their Phase 45 & Phase 90 tradenames ?.....
http://diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?p=151057#151057
Quote from: mikebJD, for one thing you can get your web guys to mod your site so that outside links redirect to the main page (i.e. 'referring page was outside of domain then show page x, otherwise show required page'). Then, on the main page put something in the appropriate language that explains what the other guy is doing is wrong.
Mike
this is a good idea, except it's only temporary (i think), but a good idea none the less.
I don't think BOSS cares about a few people ripping them off so to speak. For one, most of their pedals are complex enough (compared to a Fuzz Face or something) that the average joe won't try to build them, let alone sell them for profit. Second, a large corporation in most cases can absorb whatever tiny losses may occur if a few people successfully build their own. It's a different story with a "small time" maker. It's a lot harder to absorb the losses.
Copyright violation is never right, or justified. I do agree in principle that if helps to promote the author's business, why not? But the law is the law.
Its completely wrong to do what hes doing, which is, as you say, pure stealing. As to the boss/mxr layouts on tonepad, i dont think this is a huge matter, as boss wont really bother with the few diy'ers who want to build something that complex...Im not saying its completely right, but its a matter of far less importance. For example, would a billionare really care if a homeless guy stole his piggybank with $20 in it? No, but replace that billionare with another homeless guy, and suddenly that $20 is alot more important...
Just my 13 year old opinion:)
The point is one set of people who have used tradenames and designs from one company to sell something (pcbs), are complaining that someone else is doing the same to them by actually using those pcbs.
I personally dont care what Boss or MXR think, but it IS double standards.
And dont get me started on ZVex schematics ... :oops:
Puretube,
I am selling the product of an artwork in which you can build a certain circuit or part of it.
I am not copying any of BOSS's copyrighted information, and not violating any of their intelectual property.
You are right about advertising using their names, but that's a trademark and it belongs to them. You can't by any means duplicate a boss or MXR or any other pedal in one of my boards at all.
Fp
Guy's, Where you need to draw the line on these double standard's is, every DAM amp on the face of this earth has Leo Fender in it, Now, the difference is, you can borrow a little of this and that out of a circuit and no one get's mad, But you start puttin part's that have Fender on it, or like the certain shape of a guitar body or a famous headstock on it and call it your's your in trouble,
Commen Sense awta tell ya , DON'T DOIT,
Boss, I'm sure if they don't like it they'll put a stop to it, and they do have the money to nail your hide on the wall !
Common Decency should be your rule of Thumb, for sure in this line a work, if you want a good name and a good strong product you need to be above doing dirty deed's,
just my 2 Cent's. :) :) :)
JD
This is the first time I see Brazil mentioned in this forum, and I felt bad. I don't want to choose wright or wrong, but I wanted to share this feeling. And, yes, I'm from Brazil, too.
When I look at FP's site, I see projects that are referenced by their trademark names, but the layouts and schem's have their own names, and don't resemble the original's artwork at all. Disto-Uno, El Griton, Pez 90, etc.
As far as this new site, that's pathetic. Not even the Russian sites are this blatent. Hopefully, he'll cease or get a licensing agreement.
Quote from: Paul MarossyI don't think BOSS cares about a few people ripping them off so to speak.
I think you are wrong there, because I have a fat stack of papers from Roland's USA lawyers complasing about my Frostwave SpaceBeam optical theremin. I pointed out to them it was using 1960s technology & nothinbg to do with the D-beam. Fortunately they accepted my point, if they had decided to take me to court they would have won by default, how could I pay for a US lawyer? I live on less than $100 per week.
Paul-
Well, I meant a few DIYers, not a business selling a product derived from a Roland design. That's different. A business could steal revenue and also violate copyright(s). It seems to me that whenever money is involved they will jump right on it.
I guess the same thing goes for trademarks. I used to work for a company called Comfort Engineering. Their slogan used to be "Comfort By Design", meaning indoor comfort is acheived by good air conditioning design. One day, the owners received a letter from some builder (on the other side of the U.S. from where we are) stating that they must immediately stop using the phrase "comfort by design" because it was a registered trademark, blah, blah, blah. I thought the whole thing was stupid because we provided a service, they provided a product, neither of which could ever possibly in competition with eachother, and therefore could not affect eachother's revenue. Now, if we were a builder, we could be in direct competition with them, and then maybe you could make a case. I suppose next, someone is going to try to copyright the English language. Then none of us could talk or write anything because we would be violating a copyright.
At the core of the matter, sometimes I think these companies and their lawyers are like a bunch of children saying "I was here first" and "you can't have that" and "Mine!".
Quote from: Fp-www.Tonepad.comPuretube,
I am selling the product of an artwork in which you can build a certain circuit or part of it.
I am not copying any of BOSS's copyrighted information, and not violating any of their intelectual property.
You are right about advertising using their names, but that's a trademark and it belongs to them. You can't by any means duplicate a boss or MXR or any other pedal in one of my boards at all.
Fp
still haven`t found an A for my 1st Q:
does the bras. guy indeed use tonepad`s own (and hence (c) - stuff) PCB-layout, where you guys sure have sweated on (no pun intended :) )
for the production of his units,
or does he just point towards that site and says: "hey, I sell products, which sounds like "X", see the explanation on their site",
while drawing up his own PCB traces according to a circuit-drawing he found at tonepad?
The other question is the moral thing:
how do I feel, when trying to make money by selling clone-kits
of products which:
> some people/companies have hard-laboured on for years,
"inventing"/designing it, trying to protect it from noses,
marketing it, paying for the developing of it,
making it famous/desirable, trying to get the investment returned,
trying to be innovative...a.s.o. <
by pointing at those "real market" products to pique an interest?
(i.e.: naming them "based on the famous....")
This moral thing lies extremely close to the warped thin legal line...
Tonepad ...
I dont give a flying **** whether your pcb designs are different from Boss pcbs, or your circuits are different from Boss circuits. Read this carefully ...
YOU ARE USING THE BOSS TRADENAME TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO BUY YOUR PCBs.
If not then why do you mention the name ???
If a regular guy wants to build a distortion box, he has an idea in his head of a) what he wants and b) what the big boys pedals sound like. He visits your site. Oo - look, a Boss SD-1, or a Brass-o-distortoblaster. Which one will he pick ? If he was technically savvy, he'd have researched getting the sound he wants and probably designed his own, but like I said hes a regular joe, cant make his own pcbs and will make his choice differently than you or I would ie based on the familiar Boss tradename. Do not base your arguments on the technically adept and competent users of your site - I would suggest the vast majority are novices in electronics/diy which is why they buy your pcbs. Try dropping the tradenames and watch what happens to sales volume. I speak from experience, after a colleague had to drop tradenames from his products in very similar circs. He went bust inside a year, as he had no branding to support his products (he made extremely good speaker cabinets).
I wish people would stop bitching about it until they are morally, ethically, and legally untouchable. These double-standards are pervasive here, and are spoiling the forum.
Torchy,
You haven't began to understand what the topic is about.
I feel kind of sorry for you.
Fp
Puretube,
Granted he doesn't say that he's using the layouts, but he does use the exact list from both our sites, so unless he's VERY good at making his own layouts, or he's been designing them for a few years, he's using our copyrighted material. Besides, if he was doing his own, don't you think he might have at least one that we don't have?
I'm not making money selling kits. What I do is try to make money by selling the product of my hard work. I DO reffer to the trademark names because that's just the only way to let people know what they CAN build on the board if they use the suggested parts. This is perfectly ok, I'm not stealing anything or taking anything away from them.
Fp
ps: for being a person who has given a lot to the comunity, including the service of making the actual boards for them, I really expected a bit more support and less attacks.
I don`t understand the *attacks*towards tonepad at all.
The entire music industry is based on taking from and adding some.Muscisians have done so for thousands of years,as have luthiers and the electronics industry.
Greetings,Ed
Francisco:
No attacks here, just a question. If someone by chance wants to pay me to build them a pedal, and I buy a PCB from you to put in it, is that all right? I mean, once I pay you for the PCB, then I'm free too use that one PCB however I see fit, right? I mean as long as I'm not taking your artwork and making my own PCB, and then making money on it(therefore cutting you out of the loop?
Regards
RDV
When i first seen the site ( Bras guy) I thought..hmmm what a thief..Then i realized i really didnt care..Not my problem..But as far as FP-Tonepad goes, its unfortunate and i hope it does work out for him-Great Site!! an awsome help to the community...Im not a moralist and wont pretend to be..so i wont get into it..Its great we all have different opinions here as im often amused, entertained, and educated by the comments left.
Keep it up boys! Whats the old saying? "Opinions are like assholes..we all have them..
BTW= Good luck FP-Tonepad!!! Maybe karma's around the corner? Maybe his site gets hacked and crashes? Maybe ..maybe..maybe.. It all works out in the end. :lol: :wink: :lol:
I don't agree with the attacks to Tonepad.com. Francisco have all the layouts online for free, but ask for personal use only (not to generate money). He don't sell effects for cheaper than the original companies sold them, but sell the board for people that don't know how to etch a board or don't have skills to etch a complicated board (his layouts are VERY complicated to do manually). He sell the boards only, not the complete effect. And I think it's correct to use names like Boss or MXR, because you can build the effects in the boards, but he isn't selling a clone of the effect.
Before y'all jump in on the tonepad witch hunt, you should read this:
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
Then you can decide for yourself. I am not sure that everyone here really understands copyright laws...
Quote from: TorchyYOU ARE USING THE BOSS TRADENAME TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO BUY YOUR PCBs.
These double-standards are pervasive here, and are spoiling the forum.
Firstly - I don't think it is illegal to refer to other's products when promoting your own. I describe my infinitphase as 'similar to the bastard child of ZVex Seek wah and a phaser' just so people get some idea of what it is. Describing all sorts of things is made easier by comparison.
Secondly - it isn't double standards. It's a level of subtle difference that some people - maybe you? - have difficulty understanding, and hence the comments upon which seem a little strange. I think Tonepad and GGG are *wonderful*, the people behind them obviously give *much* to our community and I would doubt they make much $$$ out of their ventures. I'm looking forward to being able to offer some of my PCB designs via such 'locations' in the future.
Mike
double-post PLZ DELETE
QuoteI am not sure that everyone here really understands copyright laws...
I'm pretty sure that a significant fraction here doesn't understand them. And possibly wouldn't agree if they did.
The problem with copyright is that businesses have coopted copyright and other IP laws for protection of their profits (see Business Ethics below). This has turned the concept of copyright from the laudable one of protecting an artist's livelihood into corporate welfare, as with the ownership of all music and motion picture recordings by megacorporations. Whenever copying is easy and people feel abused by corporate grasping, the resulting popular disgust with the corporate rapaciousness rubs off on anyone who does have to use the rules for their original intent.
"You claim copyright control? You must also be a greedy multinational like (insert whipping boy here) and so we'll rip you off just because we can."
QuoteIf someone by chance wants to pay me to build them a pedal, and I buy a PCB from you to put in it, is that all right? I mean, once I pay you for the PCB, then I'm free too use that one PCB however I see fit, right?
Yes. Physical objects purchased without use restriction contracts may be used as the buyer sees fit: used, resold, or destroyed. They may NOT without permission be copied (for any purpose, including personal, non-commercial use; this differs from patent law) if the physical object or its design is covered by copyright. At least in the USA. Your country laws may vary.
Quoteps: for being a person who has given a lot to the comunity, including the service of making the actual boards for them, I really expected a bit more support and less attacks.
fp, don't expect the community's gratitude. By actual experience, the community's gratitude is a thin, watery and inconstant thing. I've done this longer than anyone here, except possibly Jaime Heilman if he still checks in. Expect a certain percentage of attacks simply *because* you do something for free and want some control of its distribution, and some attacks out of pure pre-pubescent malice.
I periodically think about simply turning geofex off when I get hacked off. How's that for reactionary?
QuoteAt the core of the matter, sometimes I think these companies and their lawyers are like a bunch of children saying "I was here first" and "you can't have that" and "Mine!".
Even that is a misformed analogy. There is no such thing as business ethics. Businesses do not and can not have ethics. They have fear of laws and accounting principles, but no ethics.
The bottom line is this. Any information on the internet is easy to steal. And those that will not only steal, but castigate the information creators.
QuoteEven that is a misformed analogy. There is no such thing as business ethics. Businesses do not and can not have ethics. They have fear of laws and accounting principles, but no ethics.
I wrote that late at night... :oops:
I still do see it that way, though. It all comes down to human nature. People in general are going to steal from eachother every chance they get. If that weren't the case, then copyright laws wouldn't be necessary. If you post it somewhere, be prepared to be ripped off.
BTW RG, I have learned an incredible amount from GEO. I really hope that you keep the site going in spite of the constant barrage of copyright violations you encounter all the time. 8)
Quotedon't you think he might have at least one that we don't have?
very good argument, which I`ve overseen...
so, assuming he
does use your layouts, it`s clearly
theft!
QuoteI'm not stealing anything or taking anything away from them
I have the feeling, that commercially supporting diyers to clone exact derivates/workalikes of existing in-production commercial pedals
does reduce the income of professional designer`s fund-providers...
QuoteI really expected a bit more support and less attacks
I
do support the sports of creative circuit-bending and think-tanking,
but no commercial clone activities...
BTW: my very personal aspect is to put the art of creation/design/invention of a circuit in
way huger regard, than the drawing up
a pcb layout or ptp diagramm to merely
realize a practical duplication of it...
Dear Tonepad, geofex, ROG, GGG, Aron, etc.,
You guys rock. Please keep making our community as cool as it is. Any and all of the people that host sites have my gratitude; I'm learning a ton everyday, and wouldn't be able to if you guys weren't out there.
I support posting any and all designs UNLESS the designer asks that it not be posted. We all know that designs change, companies die, and knowledge is lost unless it is archived. You guys are our libraries of knowledge, preserving that which would likely be lost otherwise. Also, you expand on that knowledge by refining the different concepts upon which the pedals are based. In short, you guys kick ass.
Anyone who has serious ethical problems with these sites that freely share knowledge should not frequent them. You are dampening the good cheer of the forum and changing a fun place to talk about diy electronics into a not-fun place where people argue about stupid ethical questions.
[/quote]
Since when is a basic question an attack? :? It's not a witch hunt, it's a question, and one that is at the core of the discussion.
Yes, this is stupid. It is all very, very stupid. It's stupid because where is the line? If I build a pedal and sell it to my friend, do I have to worry about getting a foot up my ass if someone else finds out? What if I sell to another friend? And another? Exactly when does it become a problem? *EDIT* Three, according to Tonepad's site. :lol:
I don't speak Portugese, and Babelfish sucks. Could someone PLEASE answer these VERY BASIC questions for me?
- Is he using the linked PCB layouts to make his own boards, or is he purchasing boards from the respective websites?
- If he isn't buying the boards, are you sure he's even using those layouts?
- What if he's using modified layouts?
- What if he's not even making PCB's? What if he's just using the general layout on a perfboard?
Before anyone even bothers to mention it, no I haven't drawn up any boards or schematics or designed my own pedal. This does not in any way mean I have no experience applicable to the situation. I have contributed many things to various software projects over the years (artwork, documentation, even the occasional code snippet), and never once have I given a thought to what kind of licensing the project used. It doesn't matter to me. No matter what, I'm not making any money off of it so why should I care if some dude in Brazil does (I do realize that Tonepad and GGG both sell PCB's, but we don't know if the dude is buying from either place or not.)?
There is just way too much paranoia about copyrights on DIY sites and I simply do not understand it.
Sorry, black, this is not a blast at you. It just kicked off a train of thought I needed to get out.
Quote- Is he using the linked PCB layouts to make his own boards, or is he purchasing boards from the respective websites?
Can't tell. If he's purchasing the boards from the sites that sell them, then he's legal, far as I can tell.
My layouts are licensed for sale through GGG. If he's buying the board, he can sell the board - all built up and boxed - to anyone he wants.
If he buys one then copies that one, he's violating criminal laws. Specifically, he is taking a dollar or two out of my personal pocket for each one, and committing a criminal act under international copyright law and (near as I can tell) Brazilian law.
But he may be buying licensed boards perfectly legally.
It's funny - it's almost like there's an ethical line there, isn't it? And it's only a law. :twisted:
Quote- If he isn't buying the boards, are you sure he's even using those layouts?
Not sure. Babelfish sucks.
Quote- What if he's using modified layouts?
If he is modifying my layouts, then he's violating criminal laws, whether he sells them or not. Copyright law allows the creator of works under copyright to control the creation of derivative works. Modified layouts are derivative works under the letter of the law. I do not license derivative works.
Quote- What if he's not even making PCB's? What if he's just using the general layout on a perfboard?
In that case, he's perfectly legitimate. Copyright covers only the expression of an idea; in this case, the expression of a layout in terms of parts placement and interconnecting traces as well as any descriptive material that goes with it. Perfboarding the circuits is OK by me, and legal.
QuoteThere is just way too much paranoia about copyrights on DIY sites and I simply do not understand it.
It's pretty simple. Circuits may be patented. Artwork, music, song, poetry, prose and such things are protected under copyright. The law was enacted to ensure that creators of artwork were not denied the fruits of their creative work. The intent was to encourage creative work because that makes us all better off.
Let's conceptually divide creators from non-creators for the following.
Here's why us non-corporate creators object to copyright violations. 1.
It's a personal violation - a minor theft combined with a personal affront. Describing this to a non-creator is hard - I liken it to describing melody to someone who is tone deaf. The personal effect is maybe like having your watch stolen and being slapped in the face if you object, with no ability to return the favor.
2.
It's theft. I make (literally) a dollar or two from the sale of a licensed PCB layout that I created. All of that comes to a trivial amount of money to me, but it does pay for some of the parts and other expenses of what I do.
The law in the USA, almost all other countries and international law says that me creating a PCB layout is a useful and valuable thing to do for me and society, and that I have the right to control how that creation is displayed and presented, and whether it may be copied or not as well as whether other modifications of it (derivative works) can be made at all or not. In particular, I may require payment for the creation of copies or derivative works.
GEO hosting costs me a little a month, I buy parts to try out new ideas and to recreate archeoelectronic effects, and these usually wind up either here as ideas or on GEO as tutorials or projects. Occasionally I spend a lot and give the results of that expenditure out freely.
Case in point: I bought a Big Cheese pedal to reverse engineer, laying out over $400.00 to obtain the information about the circuit in the form of the pedal. I can't do that very often from my household funds. The community got information about how it works, and the ability to make a tribute pedal, as well as instruction on how to use the principles in their own creative works. I might even - someday - make up what I spent to provide that information. Maybe.
To forestall the immediate next post blasting me for hypocrisy: reverse engineering is specifically allowed under law, and the BC is no longer sold commercially. I extracted the circuit, which is not patented, and was careful to state that it was in tribute to the BC, and that I had no commercial rights to the trademark or other IP. The layout was completely mine, not even similar to the commercial BC. It is possible that BCs are more valuable because of what I did, because I have this sneaking suspicion that more people visit GEO than the Lovetone web site, although I can't prove that.The real bottom line on those who protest that everything on line should be free is that they want everything, create little or nothing, and refuse to pay for anything, in spite of (or perhaps because of) the huge amount of stuff that has been given to them freely. It's a classical pre-pubescent attitude. There is no acceptance of paying their own way - however small and affordable that payment is - if they can come up with any self justification for their theft.
3.
It's illegal. It is a criminal act to copy works protected by the laws. Once again, this is a place where the non-ethical actions of big companies have ruined something that should be a matter of personal respect. (Notice I did not say unethical; corporations cannot and do not have ethics.) People feel justified in criminal theft of songs to get something for nothing when Sony owns all the songs. It's rationalized that Sony is acting despotically and buying up all the rights just to extract money from us plain people. (Of course that is exactly what Sony is doing - they do not and can not have any motivation other than making money through whatever means the law lets them have, and can not possibly comprehend the terms "despotic" or "extortion" where making money is involved. It's similar to a fish trying to comprehend the concept of "bicycle". Telling a corporation that they are buying up all the rights and charging all the market will bear is high praise to a corporation.)
That minor theft of a song feels so good, so much like a rebel warrior having a minor triumph against which the tyrant overlord's troops cannot effectively respond, that the thief feels equally justified in stealing a dollar from me personally because it's just as easy - and hey, R.G. must be equally bad since he's hiding behind the same law. Right? (oops, my sarcasm flag just went up!) And R.G. would never really have received that dollar anyway. Right? So it's not really theft. It's still morally correct blows against the empire. Right?
The paranoia about copyright on the part of participants in the internet in general and the effects DIY community in particular comes from (a) a lack of understanding of the law (b) an unwillingness on the part of certain denizens to be responsible for their actions (c) a basic disrespect for the property of others if the denizens think they won't get caught, or won't be punished because of youth or the minor nature of the infraction if they do get caught.
(Again, black, the following is not aimed at you.)
To those of you that quibble with this, I suggest you try the following to see if you agree with me after the process:
(1) Create a PCB layout of your own for an effect that you track down that is not currently available on the DIY scene. Create the artwork, descriptive text, technical explanation of the circuit, parts lists, ordering information and other helpful information. Build one or more and verify that your work is correct.
(2) Set up a web site, paying for it and keeping it on line.
(3) Post the layout and attendant DIY information
(4) Answer technical questions about the project, and update the project with corrections where errors have slipped in.
(5) Repeat 1-4 half a dozen times over a period of six months to a year.
(6) Do 1-5 in a way that's interesting and useful enough to get your layout and descriptions copied on another web site or attract someone enough to start making commercial sales of your layouts.
Then come back and tell us all if you still disagree with the way copyright is supposed to work.
Or if after reading this, you still think you and/or others ought to be able to copy stuff I've created regardless of the terms I've set up for its use, just go ahead and blast away at what I've said. That would be a lot easier, right? (And in any case, it's what I'll get. I've been blasted at by several generations of new juveniles. Sigh. Why do I even bother typing this out again?)
Remember the old saw about not quibbling about the rules if you can't play the game? By crossing the creator line, you're now fully justified to comment about the rules in open debate. Now
that would be an interesting debate. For instance, I could engage puretube in a meaningful debate about copyright rules. His views aren't the same as mine, but we both have reasons to back up our views and we both know and observe the law regarding IP.
If you *can* complete 1-6, you're then a whole lot more valuable to yourself and the community because you just crossed a line. You're now a creator. Try it - you'll probably like it. It's a kick that so far has been worth the associated mess and glop.
I wasn't going to post on this thread, we've been through this same thing so many times, but, R.G.'s post says what I wanted to say so well that I at least had to say that I'm in agreement with what he has said!
I know some of you think there are things on my site that are "unethical" or just "ain't right". I've always stated clearly that if I'm breaking any laws by what I have posted on my site, please let me know and I'll fix it immediately. If I'm cutting into your livelyhood in an unethical way by anything that is on my site (not including good old fashion free enterprise competition), AND YOU ARE THE ONE who I'm causing damage too, let me know and I'll fix it. So far no one has ever taken me up on these issues.
JD
wow those last couple of posts were really long lol
moral: did anybody e-mail this bastard yet, or are we just gunna babble on about ethics a little more ?
R.G.: we don`t have to start a debate...
the rules and laws are clear to us;
the view, or interpretation - like in court - may be seen different
on both side of the big pond (like in global politics...);
the feelings about it may differ from case to case,
depending on the matter.
that process-list looks good!
let me just add
step (0) to it: Create/invent a circuit/effect... ; (!!!)*
steps (2) to (5) occur to some (me) in a little different way
(hence the other standpoint/view):
invest (tens of) years (before "www"),
and tens of
thousands of (you name the currency) worth of money/equipment/TIME, to be interesting enough for a "biggy"...
ending at step (6), where someone opens up a box, draws the schem
(faulty - of course...), spreads it over the web,
someone chimes in making a "layout for the "P-T T-Z",
starts selling those clone PCBs or kits (or even the schem itself),
arousing dozens of questions on DIY forums for debugging,
ending up like:
"hey mr. designer: >my TZ from "ripyaoffpal" doesn`t
sound like the one in "fatyersuction" by the "Stolling Rones" - can I put
in NOS Mullard ECC86 instead of stock Japanese 12AX7?<"
*this does not imply: change 3 R & 5 C values, and swap Ge for Si...
Quote from: Fp-www.Tonepad.comTorchy,
You haven't began to understand what the topic is about.
I feel kind of sorry for you.
Fp
I do understand what the topic is about, only too well. I raised (as a separate point) my dislike of using someone else's name to sell your own product.
And that was the most patronising comment I've had directed at me in a long time. Perhaps you could refute the argument I put forward, but instead you descend into insults.
I feel really sorry for you.
Pure -
I originally put in the step (0) that you point out - first, get the skills, equipment, practice and other abilities to even start with (1) and further. I took it out because it's one obvious place for the carpers to start carping.
Quotemoral: did anybody e-mail this bastard yet, or are we just gunna babble on about ethics a little more ?
Actually, yes, I did. No reply yet, and I don't really expect one. Would you?
As to babbling about ethics, you'll notice that most of my post was about law as opposed to ethics, and that it stands independent of what the fellow in Brazil does or doesn't do.
And yes, I'm well aware that talking about ethics on the internet is like trying to teach a pig to sing.
"talking about ethics on the internet is like trying to teach a pig to sing"
Hey, Wilbur learned to sing on Charlotte's Web, didn't he? :lol:
Or maybe he was a hog?!
Seriously, though. I think this thread has made me realize something that I haven't realized before. Ethics and the law do not have to go hand in hand. I guess I already knew that because I see PEs (professional engineers) doing stuff all the time that proves this to be true. Just never really thought about it.
Geez, your intellectual minds are really as good as your EE minds. :)
I agree with everything RG said. There's someone (or something) outside to impose the law unto you but it's only your conscience and the resulting reactions from the environment that will impose any moral or ethics on yourself. The law is what matters. You don't want to live with the law, pack your stuff and live high into the mountains and isolate yourself.
The first step to take is to determine whether the Braz guy uses his own layouts or purchases pcb from tonepad and/ggg. If the guy doesn't reply to any email inquiry, well then, his probably doing "IT".
R.G.: I have no problems with anything you said. I'm not one of these "Information wants to be free, man! You can't OWN information! Legalize hemp!" smelly hippies that doesn't understand the benefits of copyright law. :lol: I know why copyright, patent, and trademark laws went into effect. Your work belongs to you, and you can put whatever restrictions you want on it. But I think everyone is jumping the gun a bit here. Nobody has any clue what this guy is actually doing. It should be easy enough to find out. Seriously, how many Brasilian orders do you get? :lol:
Black - I thought that was where you were, and that's why I wanted to make sure you knew I wasn't sniping at you. Your post just provided the catalyst in my head.
And yes, we are all jumping the gun. The fellow may not even have checked his email yet.
Quote from: black mariahSeriously, how many Brasilian orders do you get? :lol:
I get a few Brasilian orders, but the main problem is getting the box into Brasil, because 1. the duty rates are astronomical, and 2. unfortunately it is one country where parcels seem to disappear. My customers in Brasil buy via relatives travelling overseas, usually.
the suspicion is all about, that the guy counterfeits the PCBs..
(so: order one, to be sure - than take action...)
I've been putting stuff on the net for people for years as a business and I usually tell people to just accept a certain amount of theft. Right and wrong unfortunately has little to do with it. Once you start a legal proceeding you're in trouble, is it worth it to spend $10,000 to stop someone from selling $500 worth of pedals and get a judgement that's a fraction of your court filing fees and took a year of your time? And that's an optomistic scenario ;)
Sure getting ripped off blows but the cure can often be much worse. Also countersuits can be a major problem, if the other guy gets a lawyer a common strategy is to just bankrupt you so you go away. It sucks but it works and I've seen it a lot. I guess what I'm saying is even if you know you're totally in the right a law suit can be a much bigger nightmare than the original problem.
In the '80's Tokai made some fabulous Fender copies, spot on clones that were really better than what Fender was offering at the time. Fender sued and won and Tokai made a slight headstock change and went back to selling them. :roll: Fender got smarter and struck a deal with Tokai and for at least a while they made Fender Japan stuff. So maybe there is a possible way to work out some kind of licensing deal or other mutually happy thing.
So good luck designer guys, hopefully a few emails will sort this out.
QuoteI've been putting stuff on the net for people for years as a business and I usually tell people to just accept a certain amount of theft. Right and wrong unfortunately has little to do with it.
Sadly, that is true. I have also been putting stuff on the web - my own personal stuff - for years, since before there was a WWW (in all likelihood before many of the people on the net had learned to read) and there is and will always be theft, misappropriation, and their ilk. I recognize that in the practice I have that anything that is likely to be of real commercial value never goes up on the net. It's mine, and it stays home with me. I think of that as the thieves' internet information tax on the rest of the internet denizens.
I don't have to like theft of my stuff though, nor suffer it in silence. As I remember the quote it goes "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand silent." If you sit quietly while your stuff is stolen, pretty soon the thieves have all your stuff.
QuoteOnce you start a legal proceeding you're in trouble, is it worth it to spend $10,000 to stop someone from selling $500 worth of pedals and get a judgement that's a fraction of your court filing fees and took a year of your time? And that's an optomistic scenario
That is true for civil suits, which is all you have for things like patents. However, the megacorporations and their lobbyists have been successful in getting governments to make copyright infringement a *criminal* offense, not just a civil matter.
The legal calculus changes when the criminal justice apparatus goes to work for you. The governments foot the bill for finding and hauling the miscreant through the courts.
When the criminal events are over, there is still the civil matter to take care of, and it's hard to explain to a judge why you should not be assessed civil penalties if you were convicted of criminal copyright infringement for the same event. The draconian DMCA also provides *civil* penalties of a minimum of $100,000 for a *first*, *non-commercial* infringement of copyright. It's relatively easy to get a lawyer to take the suit on at no initial cost to you. It makes it relatively easy to get a judge to throw out a countersuit as well.
So yes, it is is a PITA and expensive to just go sue someone. I had to sue a fellow a couple of years ago on an unrelated matter. It cost me $75K before I saw a penny back, and all that was down the drain if I lost. The suit was settled before trial in my favor. I did this largely because the amount and issues involved were too large to NOT do it.
I am all too familiar with the civil suit process and the mental calculus that goes with it. It's simply not worth it to sue if (a) there is no criminal act involved (b) there is not either significantly more than $10K or less than $2.5K involved - $2.5K being the top of the small claims court amounts.
The criminal stuff doesn't always help. There are some governments so new, inept, corrupt, or maliciously neglectful that they will not pursue a single person's request for redress in criminal matters. It helps a lot if your name is "Sony" to get the legal folks to take a copyright complaint seriously. And there are some laws that the cops just won't enforce. Junk faxes, for instance, are a criminal offense in Texas, but I can't get my local justice merchants to take up the torch even when I've done their investigation for them and give them the perp and evidence.
But it's better than nothing. The long term result of unfettered theft of intellectual property is that only the biggest and most effective thieves own all the good stuff, and what is available is either worthless or people pay through the nose for it. Ignoring or abetting theft is a vote for that situation.
QuoteFender got smarter and struck a deal with Tokai and for at least a while they made Fender Japan stuff. So maybe there is a possible way to work out some kind of licensing deal or other mutually happy thing.
Yes, sometimes there are happy endings. In a world of evil-doers there is still some good :wink: As a follow-up to the post a few weeks ago of the British guy selling TS clones on ebay that were of my layout design. I ebay messaged him and he was very reasonable about it. Removed the item from ebay right away and worked things out with me thru emails. Turns out it was a good thing for him that I emailed him and started a dialog, now he gets all kinds of free advice from me :-)
JD Sleep
torchy, you dont have to get mean about it. it's not going to do
anyone good around here. i think that your question was a fair one...
now just let it lie where it's at.
tonepad - as long as your layout isnt the same as the other
companies ( boss, mxr, etc ) then i dont really see that it's
that big of a problem. one thing you could incorporate into your
website would be to say something like:
"this pedal sounds like a boss sd-1."
as long as you make it clear that although your layout will
give the customer very similar results to a boss or mxr,
doesnt mean that they are exactly the same.
chevy cant sue toyota because they have 4 wheels and windows
on their vehicles, seats, antennas, radios, fuel injection, etc.
a good example of this is runoffgrooves simulators.....
"this sounds like this..." or this pedal emulates this type of circuit.
I wasn't intending to be mean about it, just put forward a viewpoint (with hindsight a bit too strongly :oops: ). The site I questioned uses the Boss name right up to the point where you dl and open the pdf, and hey, its a "Griton" or whatever. ROG have the perfect approach with "it sounds like", and explain the schem, mods, and techniques used. This helps people to learn and not just copy.
I like this forum and most of the people on here. Ive helped various people out by pm, and given stuff away free, so Im not all bad. I just think rules should be rules and you shouldn't pick and choose which ones you follow. I apologise if I caused offence but my viewpoint hasn't changed.
And my tin hat needs a panel-beater. :lol:
Quote from: TorchyI wasn't intending to be mean about it, just put forward a viewpoint (with hindsight a bit too strongly :oops: ). The site I questioned uses the Boss name right up to the point where you dl and open the pdf, and hey, its a "Griton" or whatever. ROG have the perfect approach with "it sounds like", and explain the schem, mods, and techniques used. This helps people to learn and not just copy.
I like this forum and most of the people on here. Ive helped various people out by pm, and given stuff away free, so Im not all bad. I just think rules should be rules and you shouldn't pick and choose which ones you follow. I apologise if I caused offence but my viewpoint hasn't changed.
And my tin hat needs a panel-beater. :lol:
i am sure you didnt mean any harm...sometimes it's easy to get
upset when all you know about someone is words on a screen.
i hope you have good day!
:)
God Bless.