The Tonecore pedals are modular and interchangeble! How cool is that :icon_mrgreen:
(http://www.vettaville.nl/Tonecore/38.jpg)(http://www.vettaville.nl/Tonecore/43.jpg)(http://www.vettaville.nl/Tonecore/58.jpg)
More info:
http://www.vettaville.nl/vvtonecoremodularity.html
:icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek:
cool
woaaaaah
way to go line6!!!
Now THAT is cool. I could see that being very useful.
Can you say "third party supplier"?? :icon_wink:
So which DSP do these things use anyway? :)
I imagine it won't be long before they come out with a pedal board that allows you to create preset combinations.
Quote from: Peter Snowberg on October 13, 2005, 10:34:09 PM
So which DSP do these things use anyway? :)
I don't know, but the AD SHARC series is getting a bit of a stranglehold on low end DSP audio. The $10 ones could do any of this stuff easy, codec on board.
I wonder if there'd be a way to mount the module in a hammond box...
Quote from: brad on October 14, 2005, 04:04:51 AM
I wonder if there'd be a way to mount the module in a hammond box...
No, you need the base which has a large part of the processing circuitry built into it... the modules by themselves can do nothing.
For some reason, Line 6 has not allowed us to talk about this until now, but this is the way we have been handling the beta units... it is quite easy to mail just the modules for reprogramming. I only have two base units but a large collection of the modules as shown below. As far as I know, there are no plans to sell just the modules without the base units but who knows?
(http://209.124.248.167/media/misc/Tonecore1.jpg)
regards, Jack
As a tiny part of the beta team, I inquired about the module thing. Since the mechnism for removing the modules is user-accessible (it's the little black button on the rear skirt) I was curious about whether there might be future plans for being able to purchase modules separately. From the little I could squeeze out of them, it did not seem like it. For the moment, my own best guess (and it IS merely a guess - NOT some sort of press release or anything authoritative) is that the "module thing" has two basic goals.
One is that it permits Line 6 to fabricate the most expensive part of the pedal series as a single (well, dual, because there are mono and stereo chassis) generic item. Followers of this forum will remember some experiments conducted by folks a few years ago, in which they found that the EPROM from one "Modeller" floor pedal could be plunked into any other and transform it to that pedal (i.e., a Filter Modeller EPROM placed in a Delay Modeller made it a Delay Modeller). (From the user's perspective that entertains certain risks, so don't try it if you aren't up to the challenge). From the manufacturer's perspective, even though the guts-of-the-chassis-plus-program-module was in place, the Modeller series required fabrication/legending of separate chassis for each pedal in the line. The Tone Core series chassis are completely nondescript. Pop the module out and you would have no idea which pedal in the series the chassis is for. That affords them the opportunity to get a jobber to make them X number of thousand chassis at a reasonable price, which can then simply have the modules installed. The modules themselves are relatively inexpensively produced. All of this is to say that the generic-chassis-plus-module approach is a big part of what allows them to pack as much power-per-dollar as they do into a pedal.
Another aspect is that it makes repairs of many (though certainly not all) kinds an absolute breeze. You bring the pedal in to an authorized dealer. The dealer calls up Line 6 and, one assumes, gets a replacement module, not unlike happens with boards for many other entertainment appliances. It also makes upgrades possible without having to do a major redesign. For instance, since the very first release of the Echo Park, some programming improvements were made in the noise gating function. Line 6 can simply plunk the new modules into production pedals without having to change anything other than the programming module. Brilliant. SHOULD they decide to make such upgrades available to registered owners (and again, I have no idea about whether they have such plans or not, but it *would* be a nice idea, nudge, nudge, wink wink), it would be the sort of thing they could entrust to the owners, because all that's involved is pushing the little black button, lifting the module, and snapping the new module in - conceivably the easiest user-accessible upgrade ever invented. Once again, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. Maybe even more brilliant than the effects themselves.
Should one *PLAN* around being able to buy a couple of chassis and waiting for them to release modules? Nah. In the first place, I don't think they have plans to. In the second place, as someone with two chassis and 4 modules, I was pining away for more chassis because the effects were so much fun I didn't want to forfeit any.
I agree to the last.
Why would you have only a couple of bases and a bunch of modules you cannot use?
C'mon let's be serious: only DIY'ers can profit from a base with interchangeable modules, don't they ;)
There are some factory authorized mods to the base unit to improve power supply filtering and lessen noise.... I thought Keeley was doing them but I could not find a link to it on his site. I'll check into it further...
regards, Jack
Quote from: Steben on October 14, 2005, 10:03:22 AM
I agree to the last.
Why would you have only a couple of bases and a bunch of modules you cannot use?
...Because you want a 'tidy', abbreviated pedalboard array, yet controllable...fewer cables, PS, takes less room...I would use the modular thing at gigs, plugging in a module for 'cameo appearances' in certain songs.
C'mon let's be serious: only DIY'ers can profit from a base with interchangeable modules, don't they ;)
 Just the novelty of the interchangable [like video game] modules IMO would certainly afford itself to the marketing dept.
 Since it is already there, making the modules separately accessible would seem a very smart move...seems a bit silly to not do that...you know there would be a demand, why not be the first to supply... :icon_confused:
 I'm reminded of the Duncan 'Convertible' amp, with the changable Dist/OD/Etc. modules with tubes in them.
I don't know if I should worry about that 'strip connection' to maintain continuity to the module/base connections, [computers trust them I guess] I remember having to clean my Atari game modules and the bases copper connections periodically..
One of the goals of any manufacturer with large-volume worldwide aspirations is to market products where the likelihood of needing to provide support is nearly zero. After all after-market support provides a huge overhead cost to the manufacturer, and ignoring customers, while it reduces overhead, doesn't exactly build you a loyal client base.
From this perspective, I can see why Line 6 might not be racing at breakneck speed to sell modules directly to customers. I mean, why invite the opportunity to have to field queries about servicing of chassis that are buggered up? And if you DID have, say, one chassis and the complete line of modules, what happens when the chassis encounters a problem from plugging in and unplugging modules (e.g., bent pin on the edge connector)? How would you feel as a customer if your investment in 11 effects is suddenly undermined by the malfunctioning of the central component and now you have to score a chassis ASAP or else the recording session is screwed?
Again, I do NOT speak for them, but I can why understand, at least for the moment, they are holding these particular cards very close to their chest and not working hard to make the modularity widely known. It just invites more headaches than it solves.
But boy oh boy it impresses the bejeezus out of people to push the button, pop the module and instantly have another effect! :)
Reminds me of the "Dan Electro" perspex guitar with "plug in pickups" !!
Choose from HB/SC/ etc etc.... ( Dave from Foo Fighters uses one )
Nice design idea for sure !!
Marty.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on October 14, 2005, 09:18:49 AM
Followers of this forum will remember some experiments conducted by folks a few years ago, in which they found that the EPROM from one "Modeller" floor pedal could be plunked into any other and transform it to that pedal (i.e., a Filter Modeller EPROM placed in a Delay Modeller made it a Delay Modeller). (From the user's perspective that entertains certain risks, so don't try it if you aren't up to the challenge).
Haha! That was me! The only real limitation in doing any of that EPROM swapping was that the Delay Modeler has some extra RAM installed. Without the extra RAM it doesn't operate correctly at all... Of course, now my two MM-4 chassis have the extra RAM chips soldered in (gotta love being able to service and mod SMD electronics :) ) and can easily be convereted to DL-4 if I want to, but like Mark says, it's not much fun doing the swap. The ToneCores are much easier to mess with, only two screws that have to come out, unlike the 4-stompers which have 6 or 8 screws.
As soon as I got my Echo Park, I took it apart. I figured out the module thing before anyone told me, I just couldn't see how useful it would be to an end user. To a manufacturer, it's gold! Build 10,000 of the bases (which are expensive but get cheaper in quantity) and then build only as many modules as you need or sell. That way you aren't stuck with twice as manu Uber Metals or whatever as you need. Manufacturing / assemby becomes a breeze, just slot in your module and screw it down, test it and box it up. The base can talk to whatever kind of module, and I bet a dollar that you can use a mono module in a stereo base if you had to. I know you can use the EPROMs from the mono 4-stompers in the stere 4-stomp chassis and vice versa. I think it's brilliant, personally.
AFAIK, the module contains only the stored program code and the controls (or whatever chip L6 uses to talk to the controls) so any kind of "module dock" setup would have to have either one real powerful DSP or one regular one for each module. I can't really see any kind of allure for a rackmount box to use the modules, if I'm going to go rack, I'd want programmability. Although if your module dock was smart enough, you could probably get it to store snapshots of knob and switch settings.
I'd love to see the ToneCore pedals have a "store" mode where it would remember its power down settings on power up regardless of where the knobs were. If I get it dialed in at practice, it might be nice to have my settings stay put until I change them *on purpose* rather than getting bumped to some arbitrary position during load-in.
Matt Farrow
Good Times...
I've known about this for a few months as well. I know that Line6 is still trying to figure out how to exploit the modularity of the Tone Core line and I think the idea of a base that can handle more than one module could be really cool. Imagine being able to buy bases in 2, 4, 6, and 8 combos and buy modules separately, and then be able to swap modules into different orders depending on the gig. That would make a kickass centerpiece to a portable session rig for sure. It'd also be nice to have send/return loops between the slots on the bases for inserting all of our DIY faves.
Could you get on that Mr. Huge?
:)
Reminds me of the "Dan Electro" perspex guitar with "plug in pickups" !!
Choose from HB/SC/ etc etc.... ( Dave from Foo Fighters uses one )
Reminds me of (IIRC) the Electra MPC guitar (could be wrong about the name) - early to mid eighties, a Les Paul knockoff that you could insert two different effects modules into it. A buddy of mine had one. Seems to me he had phase shifter, flanger and distortion modules for it. Halfway decent effects to my memory.
From what I understand, Line 6 puts out a damn nice stompbox. For some reason this concept fails to excite me.  Dunno why, I guess I get this mental image of my kid shoving modules into his Gameboy, always wanting the next one that comes out.Â
Edit: It was Electra (not Ibanez) - Jack has a better memory than me.
Quote from: Mr.Huge on December 12, 2005, 06:38:08 PM
Good Times...
Yessir! The MM-4 was the first Line6 product I ever bought. I should post a pic of mine - it's been modified a bit at this point. Actually, here you go:
(http://www.pharaohamps.com/temp/mm-4.jpg)
It's got a switch connected to the exp. pedal jack, which gets bypassed if I use an exp. pedal. I also did some "road ready" mods and maintenance to it, just tightening things up and similar. I've had it since they first came out, probably around 1999? Jorge would remember. They use (IIRC) an Atmel OTP PROM chip for program data storage, which isn't protected or anything. I bought an FM-4 when they were new (and $250!!!) and liked it, but not enough to own it. I pulled the PROM and read it down. I get some samples of the PROM from Atmel and programmed 'em. Fired up my MM-4 with the FM-4 chip installed and it was an FM-4. I then bought another MM-4 used, pretty cheap, and made it the dedicated FM-4. I painted it orange, too. ;)
But the MM-4 is super great to have around. Takes enough space for 3 pedals and needs its own power supply (my board has a 3-output number with 2x 9VDC regulated and 1x 9VAC) but the sounds it makes are worth it. My presets are analog chorus, opto trem, putch vibrato, and rotary drum & horn. Each effect has a "heel down" and "toe down" setting on the exp. pedal saved, and so with the switch up top I get 8 different modulation effects.
and DiyFreaque: those guitars were made by Electra. I have some custom-made modules for my Electra MPC Outlaw bass...
Yep - Electra - I read a post from AMZ-Effects in a diff thread and that sparked my memory. I knew there was in E in there somewhere :) (I think I burned through that section of my noggin at a UB40/Police concert sometime after he sold the thing).
Had no idea they had a bass, too! Not to hijack the thread, but what custom effects do you have for it?
So...what DSP chips are used? Anyone?
I suppose I should open up my DL-4 and see what is in there.
Sean Costello
Quote from: PharaohAmps on December 12, 2005, 10:20:46 PM
 Each effect has a "heel down" and "toe down" setting on the exp. pedal saved, and so with the switch up top I get 8 different modulation effects.
Did you see Mr Huge's simple schematic for a switch plugged into the expression pedal jack, but with an indicator LED? That way you know if you're in the heel up or heel down setting.
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=33554.msg267874#msg267874 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=33554.msg267874#msg267874)
Thats awsome, PharoahAmps, I always wondered if you could switch out the EPROMs ever since I saw the little guy had DL4 stamped on it when I took mine apart. Too bad it has a trillion little pins on it, otherwise you could fill up the battery compartment with eproms from the other modelers and have a rotary switch on the side to select which modeler you wanted. Maybe you could do it with one of those crazy jillion pole rotary switches you find in those 5 way computer data switcher boxes. Kind of like the guy that sells digitech XP series Modulation pedals with a switch to select between that and the Whammy pedal, reverb, and the Space Station:
http://guitargeek.com/chat/showthread.php?s=f742924bb5ab6d45e7a635b729a3372a&threadid=58360&perpage=15&pagenumber=2 (http://guitargeek.com/chat/showthread.php?s=f742924bb5ab6d45e7a635b729a3372a&threadid=58360&perpage=15&pagenumber=2)
Quote from: DiyFreaque on December 12, 2005, 10:38:55 PM
Yep - Electra - I read a post from AMZ-Effects in a diff thread and that sparked my memory. I knew there was in E in there somewhere :) (I think I burned through that section of my noggin at a UB40/Police concert sometime after he sold the thing).
Had no idea they had a bass, too! Not to hijack the thread, but what custom effects do you have for it?
I have a phase shifter (the Electra one was very much like a Small Stone, mine is more like a Phase 90,) a distortion (basically a Rat with LED's,) and a compressor (OTA / Ross / Dynacomp type.) My bass has two slots, and it came with "Power Overdrive" and "Treble / Bass Expander."
Matt Farrow
Quote from: Peter Snowberg on October 13, 2005, 10:34:09 PM
So which DSP do these things use anyway?
If you disassemble the base unit it is easy to see the dsp chip. I have seen pictures of a closeup of the board online where it could be seen but I don't have the link handy.
regards, Jack
IIRC, it's a TI. I can't remember if it's a TMS320 or what, it's been over a year since I had the back off mine. But Jack is right, the DSP is right there on the back of the main board. I'll pop mine open and look tonight.
Matt Farrow
It is based on the Motorola 56364 platform, apparently. What the implications of that are, I cannot tell you because I do not know.
So, can Motorola 56364 DSP's be bought somewhere?
And how hard would it be to upload your own code to the DSP?
Hi guys,
Just saw you've found my site, a while back.
FYI, but you guys tear the whole systems apart, I've got a video of the unlocking here
http://www.vettaville.nl/vvtonecoremodularity.html#5 (http://www.vettaville.nl/vvtonecoremodularity.html#5)
and added another one here
http://www.vettaville.nl/vvlatestnewsnl.htm#187 (http://www.vettaville.nl/vvlatestnewsnl.htm#187)
take care
Quote from: Arno van der Heijden on December 13, 2005, 12:40:25 PM
So, can Motorola 56364 DSP's be bought somewhere?
And how hard would it be to upload your own code to the DSP?
Nobody?
Nice site vettaville! Thanks for putting that stuff on-line. 8)
Motorola spun off their chip making division into what is now Freescale Semiconductor.
Arno, I'm guessing you mean upload to a tone core faceplate module? That's hard to say. Their interface and architecture is going to be totally proprietary.
In terms of the 563xx DSP, it's fairly easy to upload new code. The DSPs actually go through a serial "boot" process when you apply power. The hard part is that uploading new code is just the tip of the iceberg. You also need to know about the support circuits and how they need to be configured. In essence, you need to do a complete hardware reverse engineering job and you might have to make a bunch of guesses along the way about exactly what they built.
The Freescale site says the budgetary price of the '364 is less than $5 in 1000 quantity, but beyond the DSP you have to have the CODEC, the analog conditioning, the user interface, etc.
Look around for an evaluation kit or development board that uses the same 56364 or any of the other DSP563xx Family. There are some AMAZING chips there. You'll also find LOTS of DSP56K tools in production since it's the DSP family that "started it all" for digital audio manipulation at professional quality. :D
Those of us in the beta testing group received a note the other day suggesting that Line 6 was considering inviting 3rd parties to develop modules for insertion into the Tone Core "dock". I gather the idea is that the dock would essentially be treated as a licenseable platform, the way that Windows or XBox is. Of course, if companies X, Y, and Z needed docks for their modules, then Line 6 benefits by being able to get even better bulk pricing on them from whoever produces them, and saves themselves the cost of the R&D. Clever thinking. Unfortunately, 3rd party developers are pretty much on their own since Line 6 can not provide any development software, though I suppose they are willing to help within the usual limits of IP-theft cautiousness and paranoia (which can go in BOTH directions, so no caustic comments please). So, if you're a DSP whiz and you think "Geez, I could make so many cool pedals if only I didn't have to go through the drudgery of getting the damn thing manufactured and all the calls to Taiwan that THAT entails", then this may be for you. I know it certainly isn't for me. I'm not that clever, and I already have a job.
One of the interesting things this presents is something that prior "modular effects systems" could never get around/past, and that is the proprietary housing/package. Sequential Circuits had a nifty frac-rac chassis but if you didn't like their phaser, you were stuck. They never allowed others to take advantage of the chassis/cage so that manufacturer X's effects could be mixed and mingled with SCI's. Same thing with the Korg PME system and the Vesta Fire system. Line 6's idea here is to use a single pedal format, rather than a cage/control chassis, but allow others to use the pedal framework/dock. So, modular in a different kind of way.
Would this mean that a spate of cheap plug-in modules would suddenly make themselves available? I don't think so. At least not for the moment. How far it goes, I can't say. The absence of development system may simply preclude all but Line 6's avowed competitors from doing anything with this possibility. Still, I'm pleased that they are willing to maybe broaden out. It's a very 21st century way to do business, and very different from what most pedal manufacturers have been doing.
Please note that this is NOT any sort of official announcement from Line 6. It is merely a hint about what MIGHT be in development in the future. People are considering options, and something might come from it or something may not. I'm not well-informed enough to say either way, so take it at that level.
Quote from: Peter Snowberg on December 14, 2005, 03:43:38 PM
Nice site vettaville! Thanks for putting that stuff on-line. 8)
Thanks
The modules will be sold individually:
ToneCore Module MSRP:
ToneDock Mono - $99.99
ToneDock Stereo - $112.99
Uber Metal Module - $41.99
Echo Park Module - $99.99
Crunchtone Module - $41.99
Space Chorus Module - $55.99
Tap Tremolo Module - $55.99
Constrictor Module - $55.99
Dr. Distorto Module - $41.99
Verbzilla Module - $99.99
Liqua Flange Module - $55.99
Roto-Machine Module - $55.99
Otto Filter Module - $41.99
Expected this Spring...
source: http://www.vettaville.nl/vvlatestnewsnl.htm#224
Quote from: Arno van der Heijden on December 13, 2005, 12:40:25 PM
So, can Motorola 56364 DSP's be bought somewhere?
And how hard would it be to upload your own code to the DSP?
Those who know are prevented from saying because of an NDA.
QuoteThose of us in the beta testing group received a note the other day suggesting that Line 6 was considering inviting 3rd parties to develop modules for insertion into the Tone Core "dock". I gather the idea is that the dock would essentially be treated as a licenseable platform, the way that Windows or XBox is.
I predict it won't happen... until more support is available.
-Jack
Not having pursued the 3rd party invite myself, I have no idea of what the company's or Jeorge's vision is for this. As I noted in the Lounge thread on this very topic, though, it makes a certain degree of business sense to invite 3rd party modules as a way of extending the lifespan of the docks as a product in themselves. I'm assuming that a great deal of investment went into designing and producing them (Lord knows a lot of money has to go into shipping those hefty buggers!), and that the longer a life they have as a vehicle for getting things to market, the greater the likelihood that they remain desirable as a platform, and the more all those investment costs are recouped.
*IF* it should happen that Jeorge gets enough interest from outside (and one assumes corporate support from inside) to justify including 3rd party modules into the Tone Core series, there are a couple of paths to pursue. One is that the outside parties become sort of contracted designers, and the modules become part of the Tone Core series, with some licensing contract between Line 6 and the 3rd party. The 3rd party doesn't necessarily have their name associated with the module, but they save themselves the trouble of having to market it themselves. Another path is the contrary one, in which the 3rd party "scores a ride" with Line 6 via the dock, but takes on the responsibility for promotion and marketing their own product themselves. Obviously SOME connection to Line 6 has to be maintained in any marketing, though.
Again, I have no idea what they're planning, or what unknown factors might mitigate against this choice, that one, or any others we don't know about. I will say that the very concept of the "digital wrapper" (to borrow RG's term from the analog domain and extend it - thanks, buddy) is attractive, adventurous, and invites a fascinating collaboration between independent designers and a big company. Could we one day see hard feelings set aside and a digital implementation of yet another clever sonic adventure by Zachary Vex or other "guest designers"? That would be interesting, wouldn't it?
I will close this note by repeating what I said in the Lounge. The mono modules WILL work with stereo docks, so if you're considering dock purchase, spring the extra money for the stereo one just to maintain stereo options for whatever you happen to have plugged into your pedalboard. I will also emphasize proper maintenance of the contacts and edge connectors in these things. It's a bit like older cartridge based game platforms like Super NIntendo. You do NOT want your stage gigs jeopardized by dirty or bent contacts.
maybe a clever sonic "Tube Dock"(TM?) adventure in case valves should get scarce...
:icon_question:
(maybe with "DigiWrap" ?)
:icon_wink:
:icon_razz:
(if so, there`ll surely be a "Tube-Hammer" module... :icon_smile:)
How do the distortions sound??? :icon_cool:
I will point out that its not just the DSP processor, or how the software loaded, or the external hardware, but software itself. Do have the software that they use or have you written equivilant software ? No point of getting all the hardware when you have nothing to load into the hardware.
For the price you might as well buy their gear if you really like it.
Andrew
I just picked up 5 or 6 tonecores at Media Play going out of business at 60% off! Such a deal - I picked up one of each they had . I hadn't seen this site until recently or would have alerted y'all...think they're very close to being closed....last time I checked, my store had a couple Chorus units left......I got a chorus, delay, one of the distortions and I'm not sure what else as I haven't taken them out of the bag and played with them yet (busy). I'm looking forward to the modules as the one unit I really wanted was the roto sound thing & Media Play didn't carry them.
I have heard somewhere that if one powers multiple boxes off a single power supply, the tone cores are susceptible to hum. Does anyone have any experience with this - as I plan to make up a pedal board as soon as I get the time....thanks.
PS. GREAT site people!!!!
Quote from: WGTP on January 21, 2006, 05:44:39 PM
How do the distortions sound??? :icon_cool:
Pretty good actually When it comes to digital distortions, I'm not sure how to think of the EQ-ing, since it's not really "before" or "after" the clipping section. I kind of like the Crunchtone. The Uber-Metal is a bit metally for my tastes, though the EQ section works very nicely. The Dr. Distorto needs a bit more field testing (from me that is) to offer an opinion. If you were thinking about looking for a Boss DF-2 Super Feedbacker Distortion (now long out of production and occasionally a little pricey because of that), the Dr. Distorto picks up where that left off and adds a little more control over the simulated feedback tone.
Digitally generated distortion tones traditionally have a bad reputation. Of course that stems from the legacy of multi-FX units that tried to do too much with too little processing power. Having a dedicated processor has helped to make the distortion quality much richer and nuanced. That is likely true not only of the Tone Cores but of other single-trick digital pedals like those from Digitech.
I've just uploaded a video of module up close, for those of you that haven't opened one.
You can also see how easily you can exchange them
http://www.vettaville.nl/vvlatestnewsnl.htm#226
Pretty straightforward. What is missing from the video is the removal of the two allen screws on the rear skirt that would normally lock the module into place. Once the allen screws are removed, though, just push the little recessed black button on the back and the back edge of the module pops up enough to be able to continue removing it with your fingers. The little black button is large enough that you can just poke the tip of your guitar pick at it and up pops the module. Having it slightly recessed means that the risk of bumping it during frenzied playing is slim to none.
I will STRONGLY draw your attention, though, to the fact that the power jack was removed before the module was removed or replaced.
For me, the next obvious question is: Can I use my roto machine as a "stereo tone dock" and experiment with swapping out other modules? Or do I have to buy the tone dock separately??
Doug
If you can bear the thought of using only one at a time, you can stick any of the modules you might possess in a single stereo dock, though only those that are normally sold in stereo docks will have stereo programming. There are no "easter egg" mono modules that suddenly grow mystical magical features when inserted into stereo docks. Beyond the few distortion modules in the series, there are really no redundant modules, so I'm not sure why folks would want to purchase more modules than docks, unless it is to pick up things they were less interested in initially because they didn't see any advantage to digital modelling (e.g., the Tap Tremolo or Constrictor).
I may be dead wrong, but my hunch is that this is really to pave the way for introducing more experimental or 3rd party modules in future. For instance, there is no octave or harmonizer module, nor any phase shifter module at the moment. I could easily see someone willing to swap their Liqui-Flange module for a phaser of some kind, and their Dr. Distorto for a harmonizer or octaver module. Not that these are disappointing modules. Far from it. Rather, I couldn't see someone using a flanger AND phaser all the time. I *could* see them in a flanger mood OR a phaser mood, and swapping/popping a module from the pedalboard for this gig or that one.
At the same time, if they decided to experiment with limited-use modules like sideband modulation, frequency shifting, bit-reduction, and other "weird stuff" that folks were reluctant to spend bigger bucks on, the modularity makes sense. I mean, if you heard a frequency shifter that sounded cool-ly weird, but you couldn't see yourself using it all that often, would you rather spend $150 for one in its own dock, or would you rather spend $55 for a module that required you to do without one of your fuzzes for a little while every now and then?
I'll take that as a "yes". ;D
Doug
Good call! :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Mark Hammer on January 23, 2006, 01:48:47 PM
Pretty straightforward. What is missing from the video is the removal of the two allen screws on the rear skirt that would normally lock the module into place. Once the allen screws are removed, though, just push the little recessed black button on the back and the back edge of the module pops up enough to be able to continue removing it with your fingers. The little black button is large enough that you can just poke the tip of your guitar pick at it and up pops the module. Having it slightly recessed means that the risk of bumping it during frenzied playing is slim to none.
I will STRONGLY draw your attention, though, to the fact that the power jack was removed before the module was removed or replaced.
Hi Mark, the video of unlocking the srews is also there, but previous in this thread
it's at this link
http://www.vettaville.nl/vvtonecoremodularity.html#5
hope it helps
Ah... try putting an Otto Filter in a Stereo dock...
Also... Hold the top switch on the echo when the unit is engaged and then switch the trails switch... turns the noise gate on or off... red = off... Not all echos have this.
Good times...
http://line6.com/tonecore/modules.html (http://line6.com/tonecore/modules.html)
Quote from: Mr.Huge on January 23, 2006, 08:49:30 PM
Ah... try putting an Otto Filter in a Stereo dock...
So now you expect me to sit here all day at work, while my pedals are all at home, wondering what this does? :icon_rolleyes: :icon_lol: Have a heart, dude! You're torturing me!!
Also... Hold the top switch on the echo when the unit is engaged and then switch the trails switch... turns the noise gate on or off... red = off... Not all echos have this.
Good times...[/quote]
Since the instructions are a little cryptic, is there a way of identifying which issue of the EP has this? Or by "not all echoes", do you mean not all commercially available ones?
Do does this mean we will "Boutique" Programs for these in the future?
Instead of the "Keeley" mod's we will have the reprogramming? :icon_cool:
Quote from: WGTP on January 24, 2006, 01:18:50 PM
Do does this mean we will "Boutique" Programs for these in the future?
Instead of the "Keeley" mod's we will have the reprogramming? :icon_cool:
I wonder how much people would pay for "boutique" mods?
Sean Costello
Quote from: WGTP on January 24, 2006, 01:18:50 PM
Do does this mean we will "Boutique" Programs for these in the future?
Instead of the "Keeley" mod's we will have the reprogramming? :icon_cool:
A few more thoughts: I would presume that you won't have the equivalent of the Keeley mods, which are refinements to the existing Tone Core pedals. This would require Line 6 to release their algorithm source code to 3rd party developers, which I am assuming they won't do (and rightly so). I am also assuming that anyone that reverse engineers a Line 6 algorithm would not be allowed to release a modified version of this code as a 3rd party.
Sean Costello
I guess they would need the complete modules then, to smooth out the response, add more bass, more transparant distortion, more gain, more tubelike distortion, etc. :icon_cool:
Boutique Algorithms - Anyone know which algorithms Billy Gibbons used to get the sound on the ????? solo. :icon_cool:
Quote from: Mark Hammer on January 24, 2006, 11:06:29 AM
Quote from: Mr.Huge on January 23, 2006, 08:49:30 PM
Also... Hold the top switch on the echo when the unit is engaged and then switch the trails switch... turns the noise gate on or off... red = off... Not all echos have this.
Good times...
Since the instructions are a little cryptic, is there a way of identifying which issue of the EP has this? Or by "not all echoes", do you mean not all commercially available ones?
Version 1.2 has the noise gate.
Plug in echo... turn on effect.... now hold down the foot switch only to the 1st soft switch. Now use the trails switch to turn on/off the noise gate.
Hot.
-Mr. Huge
Quote from: SeanCostello on January 24, 2006, 01:38:13 PM
A few more thoughts: I would presume that you won't have the equivalent of the Keeley mods, which are refinements to the existing Tone Core pedals. This would require Line 6 to release their algorithm source code to 3rd party developers, which I am assuming they won't do (and rightly so). I am also assuming that anyone that reverse engineers a Line 6 algorithm would not be allowed to release a modified version of this code as a 3rd party.
Sean Costello
True... All Line 6 products have a Licensing agreement... so you can't reverse engineer it and then use it. Sorry.
However, if you're a smart lad... you can write your own algorithm.
-Mr. Huge
Okay, NOW I get it. I had a flashback to that old fake ad they used to run on Saturday Night Live about the watch that essentially needed three hands to operate. I hope to goodness there aren't "cheat codes" for the EP that involve switching trails, filter, trails, tap 3 times, then switch from analog to tape quickly. :icon_lol:
BTW, you might want to put up a "Hidden Features" page as part of the Tone Core site, if you haven't done so already.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on January 24, 2006, 03:07:33 PM
I hope to goodness there aren't "cheat codes" for the EP that involve switching trails, filter, trails, tap 3 times, then switch from analog to tape quickly. :icon_lol:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b9/Konami-code-t-shirt.jpg/300px-Konami-code-t-shirt.jpg)
Kerry M
Giving it all up takes the fun out of it... I can't make it too easy.
-Mr. Huge
Oh great. Now we all have to start looking for the Easter Eggs in our Tone Core pedals... :icon_rolleyes: :icon_wink:
-- T. G. --
Quote from: Mr.Huge on January 24, 2006, 03:26:42 PM
Giving it all up takes the fun out of it... I can't make it too easy.
-Mr. Huge
Oh you dirty dog!! Finally unplugged from trying out an Otto Filter in a stereo dock into two amps. Why the heck did you even
bother to release it in a mono dock?
For those not quite so blessed with docks and modules, I will summarize. The Otto Filter has the usual sensitivity control of an envelope controlled filter, and the resonance/peak control found in some commercial pedals of that category. It also has a variable range/tune, up/down sweep, and 3 filter types: bandpass, lowpass, and "talking filter". In the talking filter mode, there appear to be two concurrent counter sweeps. When used in a stereo dock, the filter seems to move across amps as the one output sweeps down and the other sweeps up. That feels like it oversimplifies the filter mode in stereo, but that's what it sounded like at first. What I found kinda cool was setting one amp up for clean and the other up for barking distortion. Whack a chord and the transition between amps goes from clean to dirty at the same time as the wah moves between amps. Very nice, Jeorge. Much more than what I had taken it for at first. If you had a hand in this, take some credit. Otherwise give my best, and deepest respect, to Angelo.
(Once again, Sean, think STEREO.)
So, how is the noise gate in the Echo Park supposed to behave?
I confirmed that mine is v1.2 firmware. But, can't really notice much of a difference with it on or off, except...
The noise gate did (apparently) come on while I was swapping some other pedals in my effects chain without powering everything down. I know, my bad. But, after I finished swapping out those other pedals and had everything properly reconnected, I got practically no sound at all through my effects chain. After trying several different things like plugging directly into my amp to confirm that that was not the problem, I remembered that I had turned the Echo Park's noise gate on. So, I turned it off and that was it... problem solved.
So, what was going on? Why would the noise gate come on and stay on like that? Is it possible to (secretly, somehow) adjust how the noise gate behaves, sensitivity, release, etc...? Did I maybe, inadvertently, do something to some other secret setting that caused the noise gate to stay engaged? Kinda curious...
~ Charlie
Quote from: Mark Hammer on January 24, 2006, 08:45:33 PM
give my best, and deepest respect, to Angelo.
Thank Angelo and Ross for that...
As for the noise gat... if you have it set "ON" and your Echo PArk has trails on as well... the noise gate will be on too. Switch to trails off (with the noise gate still set to on) and the noise gate will only be on when the delay is on. To explain... When trails mode is on the DSP is not bypassed... so the noise gate stays on.
-Mr. Huge
Thanks, Mr. H!
I understand your description and it makes sense. I guess I don't quite understand why it would be useful to have a noise gate stay engaged (muting the output) until you physically turn it off, as I described above. The gates I've used tend to open back up when you put a signal through them. But, whatever... IMO, the EP is the best most awesomest delay pedal available at any price. So, if my feeble mind can't fully grasp the noise gate's functionality, I'm still in love even with it disabled. :icon_cool:
Thanks, again!
~ Charlie
Quote from: Mark Hammer on January 23, 2006, 03:40:22 PM
If you can bear the thought of using only one at a time, [snip]
Hmmm.... after looking at the video and seeing the very normal looking edge connector, what's to keep a person from buying a few modules and Cornishing them into a box?
Quote from: bellyflop on January 26, 2006, 03:38:23 PM
Hmmm.... after looking at the video and seeing the very normal looking edge connector, what's to keep a person from buying a few modules and Cornishing them into a box?
The module is only the control panel.
You can mount a bunch of dashboards on a piece of plywood, but it won't make a car that moves. ;)
Quote from: bellyflop on January 26, 2006, 03:38:23 PM
after looking at the video and seeing the very normal looking edge connector, what's to keep a person from buying a few modules and Cornishing them into a box?
...the need to have a distinct DSP board for every module you want to use at a time. Those little plastic modules contain MAYBE 5% of the circuitry involved in each pedal. A very critical 5% to be sure. but waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy less than you'd need to produce sound.
If something looks too good to be true...
Thanks guys. Just the thought that this might be possible was making me very unproductive at work.
Well, we wouldn't want you to get too productive, now, would we?
In principle*** it would be possible to have one dock and 11 modules (or however many we end up with when the smoke clears) sitting in some special rack, and digitally enable/disable modules so that whichever one you want could be selected to be valid at the moment. Of course, the time and energy required to produce such a system would be about 5 or 6 times as much as buying acouple of extra docks to be able to run at least 4 of the 11 at any time.
(*** = and, lo, monkeys shall soar mightily from mine nether-regions!!)
The only real problem I see is the pricing. Unless I can buy a dock and a module for the same as a complete pedal, I'll just buy the whole pedal. By the time I've swapped out the module and messed around with it, I think I would rather just spend the extra bucks and get the whole pedal.
The price I saw for the Echo Park module was somewhere around $99. I bought mine (used) for $115 complete. The only people that I can think will benefit from this are the guys who buy a mono or stereo pedal for cheap and then drop in a different module. I know I can get a pedal that uses a mono dock (Crunchtone, maybe?) for cheap, then I could just drop in any old module I wanted - but would it be cheaper than just buying the pedal I wanted? I dunno.
Matt Farrow
Quote from: PharaohAmps on January 26, 2006, 04:29:12 PM
The only real problem I see is the pricing. Unless I can buy a dock and a module for the same as a complete pedal, I'll just buy the whole pedal. By the time I've swapped out the module and messed around with it, I think I would rather just spend the extra bucks and get the whole pedal.
I agree. I don't really see an advantage to going this route. I think it is more useful for Line6 and/or potential 3rd party developers than it is for consumers, "coolness factor" aside. I'll probably just keep buying the pedals as a whole.
Doug
This is precisely why I'm thinking this is paving the way for an expanded line that might include 3rd party modules or more outlandish "special-interest" modules from Jeorge, Angelo, and Ross themselves. In other words, the virtue of being able to buy docks separately from modules really only starts to emerge when there are far more modules available than you'd want to use at any given time. Your reasoning for simply buying the whole damn Echo Park is flawless. If they came out with a low-bit resampler module that made you think "I can see where I could use that once in a while, but jeez, $120? I dunno. I don't really need it THAT much.", then there is obviously an advantage to being able to peddle it for $50 as a module you plug in once in a while. The deal is that, within limits, cheapness breeds acquisitiveness.
You may or may not remember that line of really interesting digital effects that Alesis had (Philtre, Bitrman, Phaze, etc., some of them are displayed at modezero.com). It appeared to die a horrible death as a product line, but Musician's Friend had absolutely no trouble whatsoever getting rid of them when the price came way down. I haven't heard them, so this is obviously an argument centredaround things other than tone, but my guess is that their death was because, as interesting as they were, there was no way people were going to spend that kind of money on something they weren't sure they would use often. Once it became the same price as a used DOD pedal, hey, EVERYONE could find a use for them.
So, while you find little advantage in the modular thing at the moment, there is great potential in it to provide products that remain viable by virtue of being cheap (hence attractive and feasible) to acquire.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on January 26, 2006, 04:53:55 PM
You may or may not remember that line of really interesting digital effects that Alesis had (Philtre, Bitrman, Phaze, etc., some of them are displayed at modezero.com).
A BIG advantage of the Tone Core stuff over the Alesis stuff: The Alesis effects were some weird table top thing, while the Tone Core is a super robust medal stomp box. Which would you rather use on stage? Which would you rather use in hand-to-hand combat? Which would you feel comfortable with using in hand-to-hand combat, and THEN using on stage?
The robustness of the Tone Core stuff is very appealing to me. If some of the functionality of what I use on my Mac (in Supercollider, MAX/MSP, Logic plugins, etc.) could be transfered to some compact pedals that I could use in a performance situation, I would be VERY happy. My iBook just died, so I don't have much trust in the hardiness of computers. My guitar and amps have been going since the late 1970's, and a well-made stompbox can do the same, while a computer seems to last a few years at most, even when babied.
Sean Costello
from stompbox to PC and back (http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=2640)
I have a few of those A**sis boxes and they sit on a shelf gathering dust.
The cases are thin plastic, the on/off switch is meant for hand operation, they have fairly high noise from cheap opamps, minimalist design, and poor packaging that places the host CPU right next to signal lines, and the LFOs.... well... let's say that the LFO shapes just don't cut it for me. They do triangle waves really well however.
The overall tone from the boxes I have are what you could describe as 'poor'.
Construction was obviously engineered around lowest possible cost. The boards are double sided, but not with plated throughs. :icon_rolleyes:
One thing that was neat about them was the ability to chain them using DB-9 connectors in the sides. It was a nice idea, but I've heard way too much clicking and glitching when using them in this mode.
If DSP effects boxes were watches, the A**sis units would be corner drug-store cheapies and the ToneCores would be low end Rolexes.
QuoteWhich would you rather use on stage? Which would you rather use in hand-to-hand combat? Which would you feel comfortable with using in hand-to-hand combat, and THEN using on stage?
Very well put.
Now they just need a version with magnesium cases to lighten things up a bit. ;)
Quote from: amz-fx on October 14, 2005, 10:09:33 AM
There are some factory authorized mods to the base unit to improve power supply filtering and lessen noise.... I thought Keeley was doing them but I could not find a link to it on his site. I'll check into it further...
regards, Jack
Information PLEASE!!! :)
...does anyone have a schematic or service manual for the Tonecore docks? Couldn't find any. Most other Line6 stuff can be found at elektrotanya.com.
There is a user's guide and a hardware guide with schematics...
TCDDK Hardware Guide.pdf (http://line6.com/support/servlet/JiveServlet/download/1840-1-7822/TCDDK%20Hardware%20Guide.pdf)
TCDDK Users Guide.pdf (http://line6.com/support/servlet/JiveServlet/download/1840-1-7823/TCDDK%20Users%20Guide.pdf)
-- T. G. --