Before I start let me first say that every contribution is valuable and that this is directed at no one in particular...
I have noticed that most of the time someone announces a new design of theirs, the only thing that they post is the layout file. Now while this is great, for someone like me who doesn't layout on veroboard, if the layout posted is in veroboard, I can't make heads or tails of what the circuit actually IS. And I rarely want to take the time to trace any circuit.
Is there a reason why people post layouts instead of schematics? Schematics would be better in my opinion so that if there are future issues people can look at the schem and figure them out. If I see just a layout, I skip the question because I don't want to spend the time figuring out what the circuit is.
Is there a reason behind this? Has the forum focus moved from creating and designing our own to just building clones or other's projects? Or is this a way people try to hide their circuits (admitedly a poor one)?
Jay Doyle
I've wondered about this, too. I usually do something wrong wth my vero wiring, so I need the schematic for troubleshooting, in the least. (I also like to readand compare schematics...)
I totally aggree with what was said :)
Schems would be great!
I agree, too... I'd rather see a scheme than a layout. But without fail, every time someone posts a schematic, someone else always seems to chime in and ask for a layout. :icon_rolleyes:
~ Charlie
If I see just a layout, I skip the question because I don't want to spend the time figuring out what the circuit is.
Often as soon as I see no schematic, I say: just forget all that, get a bit disappointed, and skip all further 'looking at'.
I get too easily bored/fatigued with the tedium of trying to sort out layouts to some kind of mental picture of what isn't/is going on.
RG said 'Schematics are for humans, layouts are for machines'.
I'm of the reverse trend. I prefer to offer schematics and not bother with layouts. I have been finding that most people tend to customize circuits for their needs be it electrically or physically so with just about any change any layout I offer will become unsuitable thus my work and time has been wasted. Now I figure if there is enough interest in a circuit someone will do a layout.
Andrew
Part of this trend is due to the DIY layout creator being so easy to use that a layout can be whipped up and posted in very little time.
And then the sticky situation of posting others schematics. Like Doug's Hwy 89. The layout is posted but you have to email him for the schematic. (weak example I guess) But to the same point...
John
Quote from: Basicaudio on February 26, 2007, 03:59:44 PM
Part of this trend is due to the DIY layout creator being so easy to use that a layout can be whipped up and posted in very little time.
And then the sticky situation of posting others schematics. Like Doug's Hwy 89. The layout is posted but you have to email him for the schematic. (weak example I guess) But to the same point...
John
I think you hit the nail there...
Although I haven't posted any layouts (yet) I have been using diylc to layout what's on my breadboard if it's something that I want to box. I do a schematic on paper right before I move the parts from the breadboard to the perf just in case of error, but maybe most people are skipping the schematic all together.
my $0.02
Kindest regards,
Chris Brown
Personally if I post something I've designed myself I post a schematic and possibly a vero layout.
If I post vero layouts of other peoples stuff or of commercial pedals I include a link to the schematic on the layout.
I think the operative phrase in the last post was "I designed". :icon_wink:
There's not a whole lot of new designs being posted. However there are at least 3 flavors of layouts being posted- perf, vero, pcb. I believe much of the layout posting is a flavor for an existing design that hasn't been covered yet. I would also guess that some of the commercial clonage does not include schematics, but I could be wrong. It just seems that way.
Quote from: Doug_H on February 26, 2007, 04:26:19 PM
I think the operative phrase in the last post was "I designed". :icon_wink:
Not quite sure what you're getting at, but yeah it was.
I'd probably post schems if I had anything overly original to offer!
Most of the time for my layouts I don't bother with the schem only because it's extra steps for me.
I have a few "originals" in the works and could probably schem those out but, not being overly versed in writing schems, they may not match the layout!! :icon_lol:
Most of my "original" stuff right now has been heavily modded circuits or snippets of ideas strewn together from the GEO and AMZ pages! :icon_wink:
Quote from: slacker on February 26, 2007, 04:36:42 PM
Not quite sure what you're getting at, but yeah it was.
Meaning
QuoteThere's not a whole lot of new designs being posted.
, therefore there's not many new schematics being posted.
there`s a popular "building their own clowns" effects company,
that even sells kits of copied commercial pedals
without schematics. :icon_rolleyes:
???
Sorry, I think I took Doug's
Quote"I designed". :icon_wink:
a bit personally, what can I say, it's been a hard day at work.
Unfortunately new designs are a bit thin on the ground. Or when someone does present something new there's usually a few days worth of appreciation and interest and then the thread disappears in the sea of Tube Screamer questions.
Quote from: slacker on February 26, 2007, 05:18:24 PM
when someone does present something new there's usually a few days worth of appreciation and interest and then the thread disappears in the sea of Tube Screamer questions.
Quite true.
Quote from: slacker on February 26, 2007, 05:18:24 PM
Unfortunately new designs are a bit thin on the ground. Or when someone does present something new there's usually a few days worth of appreciation and interest and then the thread disappears in the sea of Tube Screamer questions.
Yeah, I've suffered that one a few times of late !!
Hence my "sharp" answer yesterday to YET ANOTHER DS-1 gain question :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes:
I like to post a schem, often someone re-draws it, as I like to use a pencil !!!
MM.
I think people present an idea or circuit as a layout is because they want people to build it, and it makes it more likely to happen. And, yes, I've seen some good ones dissapear without any build reports. I also like to see the schematic for the previously mentioned reasons. But, layouts are cool too. The best of all is when it's both... great for the newbies, great for tinkerers, great for those who just wanna see what's going on.
Quote from: MartyMart on February 26, 2007, 05:28:59 PM
Quote from: slacker on February 26, 2007, 05:18:24 PM
Unfortunately new designs are a bit thin on the ground. Or when someone does present something new there's usually a few days worth of appreciation and interest and then the thread disappears in the sea of Tube Screamer questions.
Yeah, I've suffered that one a few times of late !!
Hence my "sharp" answer yesterday to YET ANOTHER DS-1 gain question :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes:
I like to post a schem, often someone re-draws it, as I like to use a pencil !!!
MM.
I prefer to use a pencil - Bic Matic grip 0.7mm #2, my sister gave me a pack that she bought in France which should last a few years!
I ignore layouts as I only build from a circuit diagram, como siempre (just practising!).
I'm pretty new to this, and to be honest, I cant read schematics, I dont know where to start!
So, for me, if this forum was full of schems then I probably wouldnt have bothered making any diy stompboxes. To be honest, I havent even looked at the schematics gallery.
Matt
At first I preferred layouts (pcb over vero) because to me, no techical schooling whatsoever, it is more natural. Like, paint by numbers. You actually 'see' the parts as they are. However, I found it very hard to 'understand' a circuit when I have only a layout -> that's what I experienced building the ROG's Thor.
Schematics are much easier to understand, once you understand them ;). By building the thor from the schematic on my breadboard I learned LOTS of stuff about stages, eq, gain, functions of several parts etc. I now recognize the building blocks.
Schematics are a bit more abstract, but therefor much easier to follow.
The more I learn, to more I like schematics.
Nothing wrong with paint-by-number builds, especially if you are a novice. OTOH I would hope that eventually people would get curious enough about how this stuff works to at least learn how to read a schematic.
Quote from: TELEFUNKON on February 26, 2007, 05:04:10 PM
there`s a popular "building their own clowns" effects company,
that even sells kits of copied commercial pedals
without schematics. :icon_rolleyes:
???
Cloners, moochers, etc don't have any use for schematics. They just need to crank out units, so the PCB layout is the important piece for them. The design has become a commodity of little or no value, and that's unfortunate.
It still takes me a while to decipher a schematic entirely. But I'm at the point now where I can glance over it and identify most of what's generally going on pretty immediatly. When I started building electronics, I just went with home-etched boards from available layouts in. Which was great.
...Until the first time something went wrong, or I wanted to be able to change something more to my liking, and wasn't able to get a "change R31 to 10K to decrease the gain" kind of answer, or the problem was more than a cold solder joint.
I also wanted to understand the *why* of things, so I could be more self-reliant. All of this meant learning to understand schematics, and as time goes on, learning more and more about the theory behind them as well. (Being able to tell that a resistor is connected between the output and inverting input of an opamp, and what those pins are is one thing, but knowing why, and what it relates to and what the values of those resistors tell you is another) I'm slowly getting there.
I think one thing that helps is something like the audio probe; and scopes as well, if you can get them; as well as the meter, of course. For me, at least, being able to see and hear and measure what was going on in the circuit went a long way towards understanding it.
Something else that helps is the basic "walk throughs" of what happens in a circuit, like in some of what Anderton's written, or many of the excellent articles on R.G.'s site - sometimes I can identify the basics of what's going on, but often the interconnections between various "chunks" get lost on me without a guide. Going along, following through some of those types of desciptions with the audio probe, scope and meter, I learned a lot about how some things work.
I've only been a member since 2003, although I was reading through this place for a while before I joined, but it seems like back then there were a lot more original designs coming out of people here, along with names we don't see as much anymore. There also seemed to be a lot less of the same questions over and over again. But maybe that's just me. I'm certainly not complaining, this forum and it's archives are a wealth of information I'm glad to have, and I'm always very happy at how great and courteous the atmosphere is here.
I think building a few pedals with nothing but layouts (or at least using nothing but layouts) is a great way to get started, have a sense of accomplishment, and feel good about this hobby. Banging your head against the wall with theory and tech isn't probably going to enamor a lot of people with the idea of electronics. And some of us learn better working in an applied fashion. But eventually you hit a wall and it's important to go back and start learning the theory and the book stuff. I went back and did that, and I need to go back again, now that stuff is starting to make sense more (having applied what I learned the last time round) and I'm hitting a wall again. (And I know I ask a lot of dumb questions here; but trust me - if I hadn't hit the books when I had, I'd be asking a lot more even stupider ones!)
If folks are releasing a layout only in the hopes to get others to attempt their circuits, I have to question how helpful that is - as many people have stated, they tend to maybe not bother if there isn't a schematic as well, leaving the "build by numbers" crowd (and no insult meant to them) - who I feel like are either going to like it or not, but aren't going to give you as useful feedback on the design as those folks who might examine things more closely if you put the schematic up there as well.
I know I've started doing more and more of my own layouts, to fit the parts that I have, the enclosures I have, and as practice because it's the only way I'll get better. I also pretty much avoid any layout where I see wires coming out of pads all over the darn place, so I redo those. But I won't build something if I know I have to work backwards from a layout that doesn't work for me (for whatever reason) before working forwards from a schematic.
Smart guy! I raise my glass to you.
Wow, great post!
Sometimes the trends can get kind of depressing, then you read a post like that. Thanks for sharing!
Echoing Doug, it is great to hear your experiences sfr! Thanks for sharing. I only hope that more can start to 'see the light'. I think what happened with the proliferation of boutique companies, more and more people started to think that they could build their own too, if not for profit, then at least for themselves. The theory IS pretty daunting at first and the learning curve can seem pretty steep, so having a paint by numbers project is just what people need for the least amount of effort (this least amount of effort attitude proliferates, if you think not, look through the posts on any day and think to yourself how many of those questions, just from the title alone, could have been answered if the poster had spent the time and effort to actually read the FAQ). Though I also think that they start out thinking it will save them money, only to quickly find out the opposite.
Personally, I NEED to know how something works, if I'm going to spend the time building something, I need to spend the time knowing why x hooked to Y behaves like Z. Of course, I had three years in a van to either stare forward at the highway or read up on FX. I chose the latter.
I only hope that the interest will swing back to where it was, as you mention, a time when new designs were being released and cooperatively worked on together.
Unfortunately, some unscrupulous individuals (some who post here nearly daily and have 'way' more posts than I) have abused our generosity and made a lot of people very wary about posting anything. Which of course has stifled creation and innovation, but it is the downside of other's limited morals and ethics. Oh well. On the upside, the day you see a 'booteek' manufacturer actually come up with something that isn't just a Rat, TS, Fuzz Face, BMP, Ross Comp/Orange Squeezer, transistor booster, etc. then you know that they actually put some WORK into the design. I'm not holding my breath though...
Again, sfr, I hope that more and more find your path. And thanks again for relating your experience.
Regards,
Jay Doyle
For a slightly different perspective, I read a lot more than I build--not that much time to work with. A layout is only useful for me if I am building, and then only if I build on that medium--so, as I tend to build on perfboard, stripboard and pcb layouts generally don't do much for me.
But I can always get something out of a well drawn schematic. And the discussions tend to be better where a schematic is involved, because people are talking about how to make the sound , and not just how to build the box. So, I, too, tend to skip the threads and projects that don't have a schematic, but read, and sometimes participate, where there are ideas being expressed (even if they are a bit over my head) and not just recipes.
Ben
I like schems
good posts all around, thanks!
I will be starting my first build soon and was wondering which type of board would be easiest to use. I don't mind etching a PCB, but it looks like most people just use perfboards and solder the components together using the leads. Is one better than the other? It seems like an etched board would be esiest, but maybe I'm missing something.
it has seemed to me for some time that separating "Building your own stompbox" into "Help me build my own stompbox" and "Designing your own stompbox" would be a good thing. now that the volume on this forum has reached new highs, the reasons for this seem even more compelling.
my 2 cents, gm :icon_biggrin:
Quote from: gaussmarkov on February 28, 2007, 11:41:25 AM
it has seemed to me for some time that separating "Building your own stompbox" into "Help me build my own stompbox" and "Designing your own stompbox" would be a good thing. now that the volume on this forum has reached new highs, the reasons for this seem even more compelling.
my 2 cents, gm :icon_biggrin:
taking that idea further, a "Repair your own stompbox" would also help; especially if topics were kept tidy and organized by effect.
As juicy and tempting as splitting the forum sounds, we can't even get people to use the search function, so I don't think we'll have much luck getting them to find the correct forum to post. I don't know if you were around, but when Ampage split into a number of forums, it kind of died.
I also don't like it that people designate themselves pseudo-moderators and declare in a respose post that something needs to be moved, like when a topic skirts the edge of DIY but someone deems it not worth (to them) so they just post that it should be moved to the Lounge. I hate that. Splitting the forum would increase this exponentially.
Back to the topic, do people think that the interest in this hobby has moved from those who want to learn to design their own, to those who are just too cheap to buy the pedal they want (or legitimately can't afford to) and just want to be able to build it on the cheap and tweak what they can with no care as to why those changes do what they do?
Quote from: Jay Doyle on February 28, 2007, 02:19:05 PM
Back to the topic, do people think that the interest in this hobby has moved from those who want to learn to design their own, to those who are just too cheap to buy the pedal they want (or legitimately can't afford to) and just want to be able to build it on the cheap and tweak what they can with no care as to why those changes do what they do?
I think at times we are plagued by those whom expect the instant gratification of posting a question and having there woes eased in one fell swoop.
I've noticed that there are some here that ask fairly easy questions at our board and turn around and become an "expert" on some of the.....shall we say...."lesser BB's" around the net.
It amuses me to see some that are considered "experts" on other boards that are "newbies" here!!
It seems many don't want to read for themselves or actually learn anything about the inner workings of our little projects.
They'd rather just ask here and be done with it.
Me......I wanna KNOW!!
I have seen the pattern many times before when a popular forum tries to split out into multiple categories. one of two things usually happens:
1. the regulars just keep posting at the most populated forum , life goes on normally except the new 'break out' forums sputter along
2. the forum becomes so scattered that the place feels 'dead' and slowly dies off for real
not that I think that this place could ever die off. I think it feels fun and lively to have a lot of people posting in one main area like it is here
regarding Jay's question, I think the net has reached a critical mass of sorts where the number of guitar players in general is real high. there will always be a certain percentage of those who want to build their own pedal. The ones who are doing it strictly to save $ are probably a small percentage. I think most people , once they get into it will have their natural need to grow and learn kick in, and hopefully some of those will also go on to become good modders or designers.
I haven't been on the forum steady enough to spot any trends, except it seems for reasons mentioned in other threads that alot of the established guys are much more reluctant to share intimate details of new circuits
Quote from: Jay Doyle on February 28, 2007, 02:19:05 PM
I also don't like it that people designate themselves pseudo-moderators and declare in a respose post that something needs to be moved, like when a topic skirts the edge of DIY but someone deems it not worth (to them) so they just post that it should be moved to the Lounge. I hate that. Splitting the forum would increase this exponentially.
Back to the topic, do people think that the interest in this hobby has moved from those who want to learn to design their own, to those who are just too cheap to buy the pedal they want (or legitimately can't afford to) and just want to be able to build it on the cheap and tweak what they can with no care as to why those changes do what they do?
The topic at hand is "Layouts vs. Schematics" so this is thread jacking and OT. Lounge please.
j/k ;)
Andrew
Well, the thread has sort of meandered a bit. So apologies in advance. In response to Jay's post above, I don't know if you can categorize people as neatly as that. People straddle lines, or maybe ar more on one side of the line for one project and the other side for another. And, they grow--something this forum has excelled at fostering. So, even if it is getting a bit unwieldy at times, I think the big, organic pot is still the best here.
No double meanings intended for "organic pot."
Ben