I used the search and I know this has got to be a processed effect added in after recording, but just on the off chance, does anyone have an idea how to replicate it?
Its like the hold function on a digital delay I suppose, but really really fast, faster even than a real scratched CD I think.. thinking of some of the tracks on Melt Banana - Cellscape 37 in particular.
Uhh stuttering pedal?
I have something like that, not quite the ticket.
More like it takes the same fraction of a second in a chord and plays it back over at incredibly fast rate, whilst completely cutting the real time guitar signal - sounds totally unnatural. I heard it also on Peeping Tom - We're not alone, Used to massive effect just before a change.
Hmmm... not too long ago there was a circuit posted by choklitlove called the Hysterysis Oscillator that was more or less a 555 based extremely choppy tremolo that... got really really fast. Very interesting, could do ring modulator sounding stuff, etc.
But that probably ain't it either...
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the musical references, although I'm sure it's interesting stuff...
Quote from: Meanderthal on March 03, 2007, 09:19:30 PM
Uhh stuttering pedal?
I get the impression that Hambo is looking for a way to construct an effect that somewhat resembles the hold function on the DD-3 but with an extremely short loop. Like a suttering CD - chopping time, not signal strength...
BTW, Melt Banana rocks!
Not too hard.
All's you gots to do is have a digital delay with some control logic that normally doesn't get mixed with the dry sound at all, and when you press a button it recycles the last N milliseconds of audio forever and puts that out on the output instead of the dry sound.
Piece of cake. Conceptually anyway. A bit of hacking on a digital delay pedal should do it.
Analog delays will lose quality with each recirculation and fade into noise.
Quote from: R.G. on March 03, 2007, 10:33:58 PM
Not too hard.
All's you gots to do is have a digital delay with some control logic that normally doesn't get mixed with the dry sound at all, and when you press a button it recycles the last N milliseconds of audio forever and puts that out on the output instead of the dry sound.
Piece of cake. Conceptually anyway. A bit of hacking on a digital delay pedal should do it.
Analog delays will lose quality with each recirculation and fade into noise.
That's it.
Hehe Meanderthal, When I said I had something like that, it was exactly that hysteresis oscillator, another fun toy. And yes I have been reading and potching for a while. :icon_biggrin:
Yes RG, that seems like the idea, I'm going to have to learn a LOT more about how these things work first I suspose, and actually get a cheapo digidelay at some point. I circuit bent my analog delay and got pretty much what you describe there, its like an angry robot noise, which is fairly wicked in itself. Unfortunately my knowledge doesnt extend very far into the actual workings of these things.. yet.
As the meanderthal said, the Boss DD2 and DD3 do it, unfortunately it holds and loops what you were playing just before you hold the button down, which seems counterintuitive. With the aim to use it rhythmically, rather than just a weird sound, its difficult, because to get it on rhythm you need a sense of how fast the delay will be and then play that increment of time before hitting the switch, then hit switch hopefully in time, if its a fast delay its hard to get it as solid and naturally as you could get it if, say you were able to play and hit it in tempo, simultaneously.
Maybe an electronic switch that switches the feedback and mix like RG suggested, but if it counted the length of the current delay buffer after the mechanical switch was hit before doing its thing, and switched back right when you let up on the switch.
QuoteUnfortunately my knowledge doesnt extend very far into the actual workings of these things.. yet.
That's the right attitude! Go get it!!
Here's a hack i'm going to try on a dd2 someone loaned me (what, is that rude?):
Found this schematic (http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schemview.php?id=126) for the dd-2/dd-3 (same circuit by the way, name was a marketing thing because they found a way to make the dd-2 much cheaper but didn't want dd-2 buyers to lose face).
You could get the hold with the shorter times by hacking the 2p4t mode switch (fast, med, slow, hold). If you could find a tiny 2p6t and kluge it in there that would be amazing and pro, but you could easily add a sub-miniture spdt center off toggle switch to make the hold use not only the long setting (200ms-800ms) but the other two. The only quirk is the fastest setting would be in the middle.
look at the bottom half of the switch on the scheme, the s/m/f positions go to address pins on the controller chip (the BIG 64 pin one) to determine which of the three settings will take effect. Theres a little table on the scheme that shows whats going on with the address pins and the modes (thanks boss!). The hold position goes somewhere in addition, but also via diode D9 goes to the long setting's address. So disconnect D9 anode, and hook that to a throw on the SPDT center off toggle, hook the toggle's common up to where you just disconnected D9 from. Then make a new diode go from the free throw (anode end) on the toggle to the cathode of D11 (cathode end). That should do 'er. Fix 'er right up.
All this does is make it so the other addresses combinations can happen when the hold mode is activated. Both address pins high, its long, one of them high, its medium, and when none are high (when the toggle is in the center, and voltage goes through neither diode) its the short setting.
Just heard the Melt Banana guy's solo/noise CD by total coincidence yesterday, he uses the skip devastatingly I must say.
now for a question, I see the VCO around IC 8 in the upper right corner, that makes the master clock of 1.28MHz to 5.18MHz from the CV from the delay time pot. Would it be possible with 40xx series logic like shift registers and/or 555 timers to produce a semi precise delay on the footswitch like i was rambling about before? use a set/reset flip flop whos output is inserted to where the footswitch went before, the logic sets it, when you let up on the footswitch it resets it. A perfect job for a uC, I know...
Maybe it would be easier to read the CV from the delay time pot and calibrate a less precise switching delay from that? Or learn to live with it? Or buy something else?
Cripes Proc!
I dont have the faintest idea what youre on about in that second post.
However, the Boss you're saying that pins 56-57 and 54-55 being connected at the switch generate the GENERAL delay times in the region 50-200ms or 200-800ms, the S isnt connected to anything so it defaults to the 12.5-50? the actual delay is set by a range pot working within the scope of each of these.
But the hold function is different isnt it? no pins are connected when the switch is set to H and yet the table says its 200-800ms, its set by pressing the footswitch twice then it repeats everything in between the two presses if I'm thinking it right, indeed the top half of that switch on H setting does go over to an almost direct connection to the footswitch. So what does that 200-800ms actually mean in relation to HOLD?
What I mean is, and I'm having trouble expressing it - the HOLD function is not so much a function of the delay effect in the box, its like a separate thing and you would need to be able to stomp the switch twice in the time of a heartbeat to make it work like that.
I wouldnt have any qualms about ripping a bossDD2/3 apart, and I do need a decent digital delay, its just a matter of time before I can afford to buy one on top of all the other stuff I have going at the moment.
But its worth a try, glad u heard agata btw, the guys pretty amazing in my book and that effect really makes me instantly wet my pants!
Quote from: Hambo on March 06, 2007, 10:40:16 AM
But the hold function is different isnt it? no pins are connected when the switch is set to H and yet the table says its 200-800ms, its set by pressing the footswitch twice then it repeats everything in between the two presses if I'm thinking it right,
No the hold works like this, you set the sampling time with the D.Time pot which gives anywhere between 200ms and 800ms. Then you press the stomp switch down and it plays back however many milli seconds you set with the D.Time pot for as long as you hold the stomp switch down. When you release the stomp switch it stops playing back. At the fastest setting it sounds a bit like a CD skipping, but a mod to make it faster would be cool.
I was bored, so here's a sound clip using hold with the fastest setting http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/cdskip.mp3 (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/cdskip.mp3)
Ah I must be thinking of something else..
Starting to look very promising.
So can you still play stuff underneath while its holding?
Yeah you can play over the top while it's holding. You can also mess about with the delay time whilst it's playing back, to speed it up or slow it down. That what I did at the end of that clip.
If you're quick enough you can also release the stomp and quickly press it again and it will grab what you just played and layer that on top of what it was already holding.
Quote from: Hambo on March 06, 2007, 10:40:16 AM
However, the Boss you're saying that pins 56-57 and 54-55 being connected at the switch generate the GENERAL delay times in the region 50-200ms or 200-800ms, the S isnt connected to anything so it defaults to the 12.5-50? the actual delay is set by a range pot working within the scope of each of these.
But the hold function is different isnt it? no pins are connected when the switch is set to H and yet the table says its 200-800ms,
When the switch is set to hold, +9 goes through D9 (like a one way street) to the long setting throw on the switch, which then goes through two respective diodes to the two address pins to get the long setting.
I wonder if the DD3 doesn't use the analog feedback path with the hold, if it tells the chip to stop sampling and just play back what's in the buffer forever. it seems like doesn't degrade over time (or is it just that clean?)..
The DD3 is a great one to hack, because it makes sense like an analog pedal, with an analog feedback path, and an analog control voltage to set the delay time. There's some thing pete cornish makes that is a DD3 lashed together with some other stuff in a giant box, its funny to see the telltale 4 tiny knobs huddled together on this plateau of an enclosure.
Hambo, I really dig your musical taste! I'm hardcore into the Patton/Kang/Spruance/MeltB/Secret Chiefs/Estradasphere thing and know what you're talking about.
Almost more so that figuring out how we the underclass can do it, I wonder how they do it! Especially live, like MB do it! WTF? They are insane, and I want to learn it all ;)
Quote from: Processaurus on March 06, 2007, 09:03:07 PM
I wonder if the DD3 doesn't use the analog feedback path with the hold, if it tells the chip to stop sampling and just play back what's in the buffer forever. it seems like doesn't degrade over time (or is it just that clean?)..
I'm pretty sure it just plays back whatever is in the buffer repeatedly, I've left mine running for minutes at a time and the signal doesn't degrade at all. The feedback pot doesn't do anything in hold mode either.
Hey gents, this mod worked! I hacked my friends dd2 (without total authorization, exactly :icon_redface: ), its pretty cool, you can switch back and forth between different speeds on the hold while its working, and it has enough in the buffer for the long setting, and plays back shorter sections of that with the other two speeds, but when you go back to the long setting the sample is exactly like you left it. So the slacker was right about there being no analog feedback in the hold mode.
It was difficult finding the correct diodes on the main board. Its such a jungle in there. This was a very time intensive/complex pedal for boss to make, lots of hand wiring, the components are very close together and standing vertically, there's a funky foil shield inside, etc. The easier way to find the diodes is to follow the wires from the mode switch, to their number on the board. A full size DPDT (no SPDTs left) fit above the effect level knob.
The only drawback is its natural to want to fiddle with the switch and the delay time while its holding. It needs to duct taped to a guitar, I think.
As a side project I'd been wanting to do to a delay I stuck an effects loop in the regeneration path while the dd2 was open, it was tricky fitting an extra jack in there, a switchcraft enclosed one won't work, its too thick, with it the pcb can't fit in the box. Confidently I could maintain one of those won't fit anywhere in the pedal, not even the battery compartment. I ended up using one of these (http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=576) (with a NC tip connection to route the feedback normally when there isn't a plug in it), which was slim enough to fit in front of the mono output jack, and clear the PCB. I haven't got to try that part yet, but I'm sure it will sound plenty psychedelic.
Processaurus, can you make some sound samples? I'm really interested! :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
I'll try, might be a little while because the DSL at my place (where sound sampling can happen) is down. But it sounds great and robotic.
Gives me an idea for a commercial digital delay that did the hold thing, but crossfaded the loop ends. You could use it for infinite sustain, hold chords, etc
Man, I want to go further, and lash a wah pedal on there that could be made to jump between the speed ranges, maybe even be in bypass when its in the heel back position. "Compulsive modding, doc, thats my trouble"
Thats a cool photo you used for your avatar, by the , did you make it?
GottagetmewannathoseGottagetmewannathosegottagetmewannathosegot.......
Its times like these I wish I wasn't such a skanky pauper, Well Its GOOD to know it will work at least, even if I cant HAVE ONE RIGHT NOW :(
Hey BTW I found on a site that theres a few different versions of the DD2-3,
http://www.stinkfoot.se/andreas/diy/articles/DD3.htm (http://www.stinkfoot.se/andreas/diy/articles/DD3.htm)
So, you're processexellency, you reckon that last one ( the currentest model) would be any harder/easier to work the mod on? mostly surface mount?.. sounds a mare..
BOYERSDAD! I wish there were a few more like you round this way, then I might stand a chance of sorting a half decent band out - instead of the total arsehelmet we're passing off as one at the moment... :icon_mrgreen:
has any one thought about doing a sample hold circuit for this? just curious.
or you could use the windbond chip recorder set at a set repeat rate . . . .http://www.winbond-usa.com/mambo/content/view/150/280/#ApplicationNotes (http://www.winbond-usa.com/mambo/content/view/150/280/#ApplicationNotes)
Hambo, I saw that DD3 versions article, its good you point it out, this hack I'm guessing would be for the early version (as far as parts numbers matching up). Though maybe the same general idea can work for any version. I'd guess the surface mount version, particularly the double sided version, would be easier to work on, the DD2 is so dense with the through hole parts and convoluted silkscreen. Haven't seen a schematic around for the other versions of the 3. A friend has a more modern DD3, I said I'd put the switch in his because he's been working on using the hold in interesting ways of late, so we'll pop the hood and take a look if the mode switch is set up in a similar way.
Yeah, sad the DD2 and early DD3 are a little spendy even still, and apparently slightly collectable.
Man, I'm obsessed with this CD skipping idea, I was thinking about my tempermental DL4, and if the looper can do extremely short loops, and then building a little external switch that translates a button click to a quick pulse on the record button, and then automatically (the length of the short loop later) pulse the play switch to set the loop...
I'm really hoping It is possible with the newer type, christ- imagine having to buy one secondhand and having to ask, uhh what type is it? could you just open the back up and tell me... HA!
also would make buying one on ebay a bit hit and miss :/
Oh man, if I can figure out how to do this I'd seriously use it all the time. I'm having a hard enough time figuring out exactly how it's supposed to work, but is there a general principle that could be applied to any pedal with a hold feature?
Ok!
I bought me a DD3, it turned ou to be the newest version. I stared in dismay at the circuit board which bears no resemblance to the schematic for the DD-2 booo.
Then I started trying to trace the circuit around a bit and figure out the equivalent workings. It occured to me that the mode select was the same (delay or hold) and the speed was in reverse. The long mode pin does not go anywhere so that is the default for this version of the chip. None of the other pins go anywhere near a diode or in fact, anywhere interesting as far as I could tell.. its not easy because the circuit is double sided with SMT stuff and all that, so it occurs to me that this might be a LOT simpler than even I could have hoped for. indeed.. a simple jumper across the pins of the switch gave the effect I wanted. Its so simple I could have just shat right then.
So the pedal facing away from you, looking down on the pots board, the hold selector has 2 rows of pins thru the board, the top row is the mode selection, the bottom row goes: 1common - 2hold - 3Long(n/c) - 4middle- 5short. simply connect the spdt centre-off switch from before so that the middle goes to pin 2, the outsides go to pins 4 and 5. Job done.
Processaurus thanks, really, I would never have bothered if you hadnt pointed out the original dd2 schem and mod.
:)
As an extra note, I would say that on Short burst is too fast for the effect I was initially after, essentially just connecting an on-off switch between the medium setting would do if thats the effect you wanted, I will probably do both tho. Always better to have more options.
Very enterprising! Thanks for letting us know about your work.
The problem with this mod is that I always want to fiddle with the switch while the hold is on, because its so cool how it remembers the entirety of the long loop when you're in the shorter modes, and because it halves the time (precisely, I think?). Oooh, heres an idea for the mechanically inclined, borrowing from the Line 6 tonecore double footswitch idea: Take out the battery option, and install a second momentary switch in that space to control the time mode setting, that would turn on only when you put a good amount of weight on it, like you do with rubber bumpers on wah pedals, so it takes intent to switch it.
so you push down, hold mode goes on, you push down harder it flips the switch? interesting but fiddly for people like me with the fisher price tool set ;D
I was thinking that since the dd3 has that really useful second output on it, would it be possible to convert that to an expression pedal jack, to control the speed, I would just route the mode switch out to a jack also and run a regular single stompswitch in a smaller box, you would have to hold with one foot on the dd3 and switch with the other but well, nice and easy solution.
Do you notice a drop in volume when you stop playing to emphasize this effect at all? I do with the DD3, not a big one, but noticable.
Actually forget that, just found out what direct out does :icon_mrgreen:
Plug a jack in there and use the hold function it cuts the guitar signal and just plays the loops, very abrupt, very glitchy. Mmmmmmm
Has anyone made some sound samples already? :icon_rolleyes:
I will definately try this out as soon as I can debug this damn clicking in my dd-3's delay. !!!
Thanks!
http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r189/Hambo_01/?action=view¤t=dd3tish.flv (http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r189/Hambo_01/?action=view¤t=dd3tish.flv)
Hmm dunno if this works should do, but there.. thats me playing around with the noise. Be aware I did it on my Zoom palmtop job that makes everything sound like shite, and you have to wrestle with the manual for 20 hours just to make it stop adding unneccesary amounts of reverb to absolutely bloody everything. I hate that thing. But yeah it gives a general idea.
With a bit of practice it could be more usable I think. the bit at the start is with just a dead jack plugged into direct out, you can kind of blend it in a bit more by not using that and hold-then mute strings.
Interestingly you can store something in the long hold function, switch to short, when you go back any amount of time later to long, it still has what you saved before in there weird :)
Hey, you're better at it than I am! Sounds cool, makes me wonder how awsome it would be if you saw a band and everyone had one of these pedals and hit them at the same time.
At the end, where you're adding to part of the loop, are you letting up on the switch for an instant to record onto part of the loop?
Quote from: Processaurus on March 30, 2007, 08:39:05 PM
Hey, you're better at it than I am! Sounds cool, makes me wonder how awsome it would be if you saw a band and everyone had one of these pedals and hit them at the same time.
At the end, where you're adding to part of the loop, are you letting up on the switch for an instant to record onto part of the loop?
Thats quite a scary thought, but the audience might think it was a bunch of mime artists suffering massive technical difficulties... start throwing stuff :icon_mrgreen:
Yes thats exactly what I was doing, its interesting as you said before, it does seem to go to exactly double speed on the switch between modes, which could be handy.
Ok so I hacked my DD-3 that had clicky clock noise and well it was really irratating so I went out and bought one off of craigslist and hacked it. Damn it is fun. Thanks Hambo for helping me out and thanks Proc for the idea. I couldn't fit a dpdt in there (for hold on medium and short settings) so I just hacked it hold to medium like Hambo. Man I always have a problem getting to the guts of Boss pedals. Everything is so compact I get scared I might rip off a wire and create more work for myself. The thing that gave me the most trouble was getting that LED back into its hole! Anyways, this thing is evil! :icon_twisted: I stayed up all night playing with it and now i'm paying for it at work. If you guys come up with anything to add on to this I'd be very interested.
-Jonathan
Glad to be of assitance 8bit. I know what your saying about the boss innards, think about procs job with the spagetthi dd2. this dd3 even gave me some trouble coz I was testing around with the circuit all hanging out I had to solder wires to all the ground points and connect them together and the jacks all hanging out was a total mare thehe... the worst part was drilling the hole though, I had a bad experience drilling a distortion pedal a new one once... ended up the drill flung the thing clean across the room smashing all the internal bits.
I'm now looking at getting a really cheap wah to rip up and use as delay time controller for this as mentioned above, I reckon it would be excellent because it would work on the mod and on the regular delay sound too, imagine that, you know how it goes as fast and slowy when you do twist the knob, what you could do with that on a footpedal Ha! plug the jack in the direct out and just get nutty bendy sounds with no dry out. Well We'll see...
Just got to get that wah.. Might take a while, I have a problem paying more than a fiver for something I know I'm going to tear to shreds- Skankbag that I am. :icon_mrgreen:
Heh yeah I didnt know where to drill it so I had to go to Analogman's site and see where a safe spot was. There are those 2 holes that are punched already on the inside which I guess is simple enough! About the wah controller, I am wondering if you have it set up like you wanted controling the delay time and have the switch on the wah switch out the hack. That would be very fun! I wouldn't know how to go about doing that though. Time to go searching!
-Jonathan
p.s. try checking your local craigslist or put on ad on it. sometimes people dont post certain things and if you post a wanted ad there will sometimes be someone who has what you are looking for. Thats how I got my 80 dollar DD-3. Brand new in box and plastic. :icon_eek: In fact I think the guy has another brand new one for 80 bucks. I really wanted to get both but I slapped myself before I did.