A while ago I built the new Hot Tubes layout from gaussmarkov and stobiepole (http://gaussmarkov.net/index.php?page=layouts#hottubes).
Here are a couple of my questions:
1) I didn't have a 2M pot so I used a 1M... I notice when I put my DMM across the the lugs, the most distortion occurs when the pot is at 0-ohms resistance - at my max resistance (1M) it's clean... what's the benefit of the 2M pot? Wider range of drive?
2) I think the tone of this beastie is good - but I have an underlying 'misbiased' sound through the range of the OD pot (unpleasent fuzz under all the notes). Here are my voltages - I haven't built many CD4049 circuits - but I assume it should run at approximately half the supply voltage, right?
(http://aronnelson.com/gallery/albums/HotTubesTroubleshoot/HotTubes_TSr0.jpg)
The opamp looks about right to me...
The 1M pot and JRC4558D (instead of the LM4558N) are the only subs I made on this build.
If the CD4049 voltages look OK, do you have any other recommendations on where to look? Anyone else built this? Success?
Thanks.
Mike
bump for mydementia :)
well, i did some searching around on the forum. aron once complained of gating in a 4049 circuit that he was playing with on his breadboard: 4049 gating (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=51277.msg384536#msg384536). i turned out that he had no coupling caps between stages and adding them fixed things up. so one hypothesis that suggests is that there might be something wrong around one of your coupling caps. a short maybe? or a bad cap?
all the best, paul
Hi,
Just built this, thanks Gaussmarkov and Stobiepole for the layout, very cool sound on this one.
Only sub is RC4558P instead of LM4558N and I have the same results as mydementia
1. the 2m pot really only worked at 0 ohms and at any resistance stops passing sound altogether. I had a 100k pot so I put that in and it now works as a usable gain pot. I will most likely try a 500k when I get a chance to get one.
2. I also have the misbiased underlying fuzz which I don't really mind, It adds another dimension to the sound but what I don't like is that it gates at the end of the note destroying sustain. I read the 4049 gating thread, but don't really get it sorry. Any help on a fix for this would be greatly appreciated.
I did notice that there is a picture in the gallery of a hot tubes board which seems to have a 10uf electro near the 4049
www.aronnelson.com/gallery/v/DRAGONFLY-LAYOUTS_0/album146/album64/EH_HOT_TUBES_GUTS.jpg.html
the scheme does not have it. is it likely that it was and after thought for this gatey bias issue?
thanks Simon
well, stobiepole says,
QuoteI put a 10uF tant instead of the 1uF at C10, and a 33nF cap from the 1.8M resistor to ground and it improved the sound quite a bit - made it smoother and more tubey...
i've had folks tell me that the original has the same sound. all we did was follow the schem on amz-fx. :icon_confused:
cheers, gm
Thanks GM
I will try the 33nF cap from the 1.8M resistor to ground. I think i will bypass the tone most of the time so I might leave c10.
Don't get me wrong I love the sound, the gating just spoils the sustain.
Simon
ok. i did a little background reading. the most important thing i found is a post from Bernardduur:
Quote from: Bernardduur on January 09, 2007, 03:02:59 PM
Hey all!
As I am quite fond of my Hot Tubes clones I decided to buy one......
Oh well, I found one cheap :)
It follows this (http://www.muzique.com/schem/hottube.gif) schematic quite right with some small changes:
- all 150k resistors are 160k
- all 4,7 uF caps are 5 uF
- the 1 uF cap in the tone section is 10 uF
- across the first "gain" stage (1.8M to ground, 160k across inverter) is a small cap (N 3300)
Voltage is 8.3V, IC = RC4558NB, inverter = SCL4049UBE (socketed)
Just to share!
so that confirms stobiepole's fixes and your detective work about the 10uF cap. unless "across the stage" means from input to output. [Edit: and that cap might be 3.3nF]
also, here's a picture of the underside of an original. my, my, what is that cap doing there? :icon_confused:
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/sonicvi/htin.jpg)
that's from this post: Re: Pictures! by jlullo (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=36392.msg467707#msg467707)
i also meant to point out this post:
Quote from: elgorgon on June 20, 2002, 12:05:09 PM
Quote from: Lassi Kangasmaki on June 20, 2002, 11:19:05 AM
I built an old model of EH Hot Tubes last week and I thought I could tweak the bias to get a smoother sound ...(it hisses and the sound is a bit "rough"), so I believe I have a problem with tbe bias.
That's how the original Hot Tubes I have sounds.
But if you want to tweak something other than the bias, you can adjust the 75k resistor between pins 6 & 7 of the 4558. Raise it to get more gain going into the 4049. Or put a 500k pot in series with the 75k (at minimum you have the stock setting).
elgorgon@yahoo.com
So does that 33nf or 3.3nf cap go from pin14 in series with the 1.8m resistor or in parallel to it? Thanks GM, Hopefully I can have a tweak with this later tonight and post results.
That photo above is my pedal and that ceramic cap is in parallel with the 1.8M resistor that connects to pin 9 on the 4049. Also, I've never noticed any kind of gating sound.
sonic, do you remember the cap value?
Thanks Sonic, Just about to ask the same question as GM
It just says N3300, which I can only assume is 3300p (3.3.n). I'll see if I can't get a measurement to confirm soon.
Ah, 3.3nF instead of 33nF...I'll give that a try. With 33nF it's pretty dark sounding...
Chris
Just put in a 2.2nf (don't have 3.3nf at the moment) and the gating is gone. Thanks for all the help I am really happy to get it sorted!!!
Quote from: electrobuster on September 09, 2007, 04:00:44 AM
Just put in a 2.2nf (don't have 3.3nf at the moment) and the gating is gone. Thanks for all the help I am really happy to get it sorted!!!
and stobiepole wrote to say the 3.3nF sounds much better in his build. ah, very satisfying. i will make changes to the gaussmarkov.net project.
thanks everyone, gm :icon_biggrin:
LOL
I just made a post about my HT; I find it quite bass heavy.... anyone else experienced this???
Else, I LOVE it through my FX loop!
Quote from: Bernardduur on September 09, 2007, 02:17:14 PM
LOL
I just made a post about my HT; I find it quite bass heavy.... anyone else experienced this???
Else, I LOVE it through my FX loop!
... and your earlier post in the same thread is already cited above. :icon_biggrin:
stobiepole says that changing the cap across the 1.8M resistor on the first gain stage inverter from 33nF to 3.3nF relieved the bassiness a lot.
but bernardduur (is that really a reference to Ruud Bernard? :icon_biggrin:), you have an original right? i am wondering whether you and sonicvi can double check the position of that cap? is across the resistor or across the inverter. in the red llama and other 4049 circuits, there is are often caps across several of the inverters (connected to input and output). the amz-fx copy of the eh schem shows none of these caps and i just would like to check again whether this cap actually goes to the output rather than to ground.
if it's not possible, i understand.
given that the 3.3nF cap is an order of magnitude bigger than feedback caps in the llama, hot harmonics, etc., it may well not be a feedback cap. but here's the thing: i would've thought that a cap to ground would increase bassiness, because that is an exit route for highs out of the signal path. :icon_confused: what stobiepole observes is consistent with this. when he puts in a smaller valued cap, more highs appear.
cheers, gm
Quote from: Bernardduur on September 09, 2007, 02:17:14 PM
LOL
I just made a post about my HT; I find it quite bass heavy.... anyone else experienced this???
Else, I LOVE it through my FX loop!
I use it with bass with an Ampeg tube amp and it retains a good amount of low end. You'll note in that photo I replaced the direct out jack with a clean blend knob.
Quote from: gaussmarkov on September 09, 2007, 05:51:43 PM
stobiepole says that changing the cap across the 1.8M resistor on the first gain stage inverter from 33nF to 3.3nF relieved the bassiness a lot.
but bernardduur (is that really a reference to Ruud Bernard? :icon_biggrin:), you have an original right? i am wondering whether you and sonicvi can double check the position of that cap? is across the resistor or across the inverter. in the red llama and other 4049 circuits, there is are often caps across several of the inverters (connected to input and output). the amz-fx copy of the eh schem shows none of these caps and i just would like to check again whether this cap actually goes to the output rather than to ground.
Ok, I just double checked and I you are indeed correct, the cap is in parallel with the 150K resistor between pins 9 and 10 of the 4049. The 1.8M and 150K are right next to each other on the board. Sorry about that, my mistake. I measured the cap with my meter and it gave me .733uF. I don't want to desolder the cap as it looks kinda fragile so maybe someone can do some math to find out if that would actually be 3300p if it were in parallel with a 150K resistor.
Can't measure mine as my DMM has no capitance reader
No Ruud Bernard here..... dunno who he is btw :)
I used to love the unit; now the extreme bassiness really bugs me
hmm. i don't know if we can read the capacitance indirectly like that. certainly a capacitor in parallel with a resistor has an impedance with some reactance and some resistance. does your DMM read general impedance, or just capacitance? and then, i think i read R.G. caution that one cannot generally read component values in a circuit the way we would like. i guess i just don't know enough about it.
Quote from: Bernardduur on September 09, 2007, 06:31:30 PM
No Ruud Bernard here..... dunno who he is btw :)
me neither. :icon_biggrin: i just recall that Ruud is a given name in the Netherlands. :icon_cool:
Quote from: gaussmarkov on September 09, 2007, 07:41:15 PM
hmm. i don't know if we can read the capacitance indirectly like that. certainly a capacitor in parallel with a resistor has an impedance with some reactance and some resistance. does your DMM read general impedance, or just capacitance? and then, i think i read R.G. caution that one cannot generally read component values in a circuit the way we would like. i guess i just don't know enough about it.
It reads capacitance, just some holes that you stick the component in. I didn't expect it to be much use to measure it in the circuit.
Ok, I just googled N3300 and apparently this has to do with the type of dialectric and is not the value. I'll have to desolder it and measure.
Ok, it reads 039 on the 200pF scale so I'm assuming that's 39pF. I've just been full of incorrect info haven't I? :D
I just tried a 39pf in parallel with the 150k resistor, R11 on the Gaussmarkov layout and the bite is back. When I tried the 2.2nf on the 1.8m and then on the 150k the gating disappeared but the sound lost it's edge if that makes sense. The only point of reference I have for the Hot Tubes is Kim Gordon from Sonic Youth, I think Bernardduur mentions somewhere that Kim is known to use one for a bass distortion. With the 39p in there I can now get that sound, check out the song Kool Thing from "Goo" . It's better on guitar now too. So unless anyone finds any different information I think thats it. Good work chaps
S
Quote from: electrobuster on September 09, 2007, 09:40:10 PM
I just tried a 39pf in parallel with the 150k resistor, R11 on the Gaussmarkov layout and the bite is back. When I tried the 2.2nf on the 1.8m and then on the 150k the gating disappeared but the sound lost it's edge if that makes sense. The only point of reference I have for the Hot Tubes is Kim Gordon from Sonic Youth, I think Bernardduur mentions somewhere that Kim is known to use one for a bass distortion. With the 39p in there I can now get that sound, check out the song Kool Thing from "Goo" . It's better on guitar now too. So unless anyone finds any different information I think thats it. Good work chaps
S
i agree. that sounds like a wrap. sonic, thanks so much for pulling that cap off and measuring it. you are a hero. :icon_cool:
39pF makes a lot more sense that 3.3pF. now we are in the ballpark of the cap values in simiilar circuits. and electrobuster has confirmed with another actual build. dude, you rule too. :icon_biggrin:
sweet! isn't it curious that this circuit has been around for so long, the schem sitting on jack's site, and we couldn't find this info somewhare else? go figure. :icon_confused:
now i will really change the project file on gaussmarkov.net. cheers all! gm
never heard a hot tubes before... maybe you guys could upload some clips?
:) ok. new project files up: http://gaussmarkov.net/wordpress/circuits/hot-tubes-clone/ (http://gaussmarkov.net/wordpress/circuits/hot-tubes-clone/)
again, thanks to everyone, including electrictabs for kicking the whole thread off. :icon_cool:
Quote from: km-r on September 09, 2007, 11:23:03 PM
never heard a hot tubes before... maybe you guys could upload some clips?
Go to the Snarling Dogs website and listen to the clips of the Black Dog or Tweed E Dog or Blue Doo if they still have them on the site. They are copies of the Hot Tubes with very minor changes. I have a Hot Tubes and Blue Doo and they do sound very similar. I'll try to make a couple sometime soon.
.
Quote from: gaussmarkov on September 10, 2007, 12:36:36 AM
:) ok. new project files up: http://gaussmarkov.net/wordpress/circuits/hot-tubes-clone/ (http://gaussmarkov.net/wordpress/circuits/hot-tubes-clone/)
again, thanks to everyone, including electrictabs for kicking the whole thread off. :icon_cool:
No problem, glad to inspire more research. Maybe electrictabs should be my new tag, the buster thing is pretty lame and embarrassing.
see here for electrictabs aka Dr. Boogey:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?action=profile;u=1175 :icon_eek:
Ah I see, maybe GM got us mixed up, which makes it even more embarrassing, that Tabs dood knows stuff. Hehehe
Awesome man! I never expected it to read 39 pF; it was the main source of my bassiness as I replaced it some time ago with a 3n3 which will give it the bass! I quickly searched around and found the original cap and replaced it and now it sounds as sweet as it should
Anyone tried it in an FX loop yet?
Oh, as the Tweed Dog (of Snarling Dogs) is a Hot Tubes clone, what does the attack control do (switch to go from Snarl to Bite)?
Just tried it in an effects loop on an old solid state amp. Bernardduur is on the money with this one, It sounds awesome, much smoother and clearer. A great combination for a solid state amp with an effects loop.
OK, I KNEW I wasn't dreaming..........
This is a new favorite for me now :)
I wonder if it is the same with other CMOS inverter based pedals like the Red Llama
Quote from: snap on September 10, 2007, 01:47:09 AM
see here for electrictabs aka Dr. Boogey:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?action=profile;u=1175 :icon_eek:
naw, i mixed up mydementia and electrictabs. :icon_redface: i was actually going to go back and check who started the thread, and then something distracted me. it was late ... it was lame ... what can i say? :) apologies to mydementia.
i also forgot to mention that there has been another hot tubes schem kicking around for ages, created by Mark Hammer and R.G. and called the MXR Hot Tubes. Mark has been trying to correct the misattribution to MXR for years. :icon_wink: as i recall, they deliberately removed the tone section. and, yep, there is a small cap across the first inverter. their component values differ a bit, probably they were looking at an older EH Hot Tubes. you can see the R.G. schem all over the place, including "Guitar Related Circuits" here: http://www.montagar.com/~patj/mxrhott.gif (http://www.montagar.com/~patj/mxrhott.gif).
only problem is ... they also have another feedback cap on the second inverter in the signal path. :icon_rolleyes: and there's one extra inverter, too. :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: so as with so many of these boxes, there were several versions.
perhaps we should name this one? inadvertantly, R.G. already named his the "MXR" hot tubes. :icon_lol: what shall we call this one? :icon_biggrin:
Quote from: Bernardduur on September 10, 2007, 05:20:20 AM
Awesome man! I never expected it to read 39 pF; it was the main source of my bassiness as I replaced it some time ago with a 3n3 which will give it the bass! I quickly searched around and found the original cap and replaced it and now it sounds as sweet as it should
now that is excellent news! stobiepole is going to check his build, too. yesterday, he told me that he found the same thing as you with a 3n3. so it still looks like we are all on the same page.
cheers, gm :icon_cool:
oops. i misread the MXR HT schem. same number of inverters, 3, in the signal path not including the tone section. and only one bypass cap on the first inverter. i keep seeing that op amp as an inverter. :icon_redface: so actually, all we needed to do was look at R.G.'s early schem and reproduce that with the alternative component values. :icon_lol:
Quote from: gaussmarkov on September 10, 2007, 12:09:42 PM
oops. i misread the MXR HT schem. same number of inverters, 3, in the signal path not including the tone section. and only one bypass cap on the first inverter. i keep seeing that op amp as an inverter. :icon_redface: so actually, all we needed to do was look at R.G.'s early schem and reproduce that with the alternative component values. :icon_lol:
LOL
That was exactly as I though; "he, that's just the same hardwired in the tone bypass mode"
Someone has the schematic of the Tweed E dog? I read on this forum it was available a long time ago
Quote from: Bernardduur on September 10, 2007, 12:14:50 PM
Someone has the schematic of the Tweed E dog? I read on this forum it was available a long time ago
i just checked the files on this computer and i have something that claims to be the Black Dog and the Tweed E Dog rolled into one schem. i searched for the file name on this forum and found it here:
Quote from: Dan N on July 30, 2007, 02:47:59 PM
It's a Hot Tubes/Tube Sound Fuzz derivitive. We traced the other two pedals in that series (Black Dog, Tweed E Dog). I would be interested in what changes make up the Blue Doo. Here's the other two:
http://users.rio.com/senorris/junk/BdogTdog.gif
If you could add the cap changes or whatever on your pedal, we would have them covered.
Edit- Oh yea, here's a shot of theTweed E PCB.
http://users.rio.com/senorris/junk/tdogT2.jpg
Thanks man! Shame I couldn't find it :)
The snarl / bite stuff was my main point of interest........ hmmm......
Here's an MP3 of an original Hot Tubes. I recorded it with a Telecaster with an Harmonic Design Super 90 which is a tele bridge pickup designed to sound like a P90 > Hot Tubes > mixer preamp> Logic Pro with clean Voxy amp simulation. I play with the drive and tone knobs and the tone bypass switch throughout. It's kinda long about 3.5 minutes and 4.5 Megs.
http://homepage.mac.com/sonicvi/hottubes.mp3
i will download that...
im still having problems with my ROG DoubleD[first cmos dist build]...
i will try the EH hot tubes afterwards since i really thought i busted four 4049ube's with m doubleD, so there plenty left to fry for the hot tubes...
Sorry to start up an old thread again but i was wondering if anybody could give me a bit of help with this project
i have built this using all the correct values apart from the following, i used the information on gaussmarkov's site (wich is awesome by the way)
c4= 168pf (supposed to be 180pf)
overdrive is 1meg (supposed to be 2meg)
R5 and R7 22k (supposed to be 20k)
c17 44pf (supposed to be 39pf)
i also used a tl07 and i have tried a jrc4558
i dont think any of these changes should stop the pedal working, right now i get a high pitch hissing noise and i can hear some sound with my amp turned right the way up?
pin voltages are as follows
cd4049ube
1. 9.2
2. 0
3. 9.2
4. 3.7
5. 3.4
6. 3.7
7. 3.4
8. 0
9. 9.2
10. 0
11. 3.71
12. 4.08
13. 0
14. 3.72
15. 4.05
16. 0
tl07
1. 4.51
2. 4.46
3. 3.76
4. 0
5. 4.5
6. 4.59
7. 4.56
8. 9.21
againg i am very sorry to open up an old thread i thought about opening a new thread but most of the relevent information is on this thread
thanks in advance for any and all help with this project, as you can imadgine getting this working is playing on my mind so much so to the point were i am dreaming of this circuit ::)
regards
joe
I would start a new post if I were you- you'll get more help that way. Also include a link to the project/layout you used. Welcome to the forum!