All,
I know this is a very subjective question, so I apologize in advance for asking a "newbie" question.
Do old capacitors and resistors have a better sound for effects? Also, do different types of caps and other components make an appreciable difference in the sound of the finished product? Are expensive components any better than cheap stuff?
Thanks in advance!
Axl Bundy
All,
I know this is a very subjective question, so I apologize in advance for asking a "newbie" question.
Do old capacitors and resistors have a better sound for effects?
Sure, if the oldness sounds better to you, I prefer newest in caps because they have a shelf life and life expectancy.
Some say old some say new...
If you need a tight tolerance, I would use new. If you don't want to not be able to figure out which cap is a leaking or shorted without a lot of trouble use new. If drifty caps with loose tolerance is preferred, possibly extremely slight distortion old brownies would be good, IIRC they were used in some old phasers, reported to impart old mojo.
Resistors tend to be 'resistive', but can be fried toasty, like the ones at the tube socket, generally they work just fine, in certain applications you may want to use fancy resistors, they might exhibit lower thermal noise, like huge resistors at an input [because at the input the noise might get amplified]...I never tried, all the other noise issues seemed much more...noisy, I don't think 'regular' resistors are the least bit 'noisy', probably I could tell some difference in say a compressor, cranked.
Also, do different types of caps and other components make an appreciable difference in the sound of the finished product?
What's 'appreciable'...lol...I'm not the one who'd know other than once in a while [rolloff cap for Q2Ff I use a brownie, I think it was JD reported a slight 'zizzing', same thing I noticed disappeared when using a metal film there.
Are expensive components any better than cheap stuff?
What;s better;? ..
I tend to stay away from brownie caps, might use a small film cap across a big electrolytic [electro's don't really handly HF's as good as films], once in a while use a metal film or not if specified...or looks like a 'good' place for one.
Hi
in my opinion, Pete hit on an important point:
QuoteIf you need a tight tolerance, I would use new.
Especially for filters and feedback networks, it can sometimes be important to be near the specified value. The tolerance range of some modern caps (e.g. ceramics) can be enough to warrant trying a few different components. e.g. the 470pF feedback caps in the Big Muff Pi.
Another advantage is the ready availability of smaller packages. e.g. MKT caps are not only self-healing, have 5% tolerance, low distortion, and fixed pin spacing (5.1 mm), they are tiny, too.
There are one or two rare exceptions to the modern is better rule. e.g. RG Keen explains the use of CC resistors in tube amps at geofex.com. Also, things like resistor and transistor noise might, in some circumstances be considered good rather than bad if the exact sound of an old circuit or amp is desired.
My own 2c:
1. No carbon comp, unless you want noise.
2. No recycling old electros. Save 5 cents & risk a ton of trouble? Not even a cheapskate like me should do that.
3. No 'bypass' type ceramics in the audio path.
'Byass' ceramics are the .1uF and similar the are 'remarkably tiny for their value'. First, the tolerances for these are all over the shop. Secondly, they are one of the very few components that are demonstrably capable of distortion, to say nothing of being able to couple vibration into the circuit!
I'm not going to buy into subtle effects - but the 3 points above can make a difference noticeable to even a cloth-eared old git like me :icon_mad:
When you mention "MKT" caps are talking about something like this from the Mouser catalog:
http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=MKT1822347254virtualkey61310000virtualkey75-MKT1822347254
This is what MKT film caps look like:
(http://www.hitano.com.tw/images/MKT.gif)
(http://www.vishay.com/images/satellite/capacitors/mkt182.gif)
This is cool. You're from Baketown? I used to run classicfuzz.com out of Bakersfield. Hit me up and I'll show you some older vintage 60's capacitors. ttak@classicfuzz.com
Quote from: Baktown on August 11, 2007, 08:02:09 PM
Do old capacitors and resistors have a better sound for effects?
no.
Quote from: Baktown on August 11, 2007, 08:02:09 PM
Also, do different types of caps and other components make an appreciable difference in the sound of the finished product?
yes. but the question is too vague for me to narrow it down.
Quote from: Baktown on August 11, 2007, 08:02:09 PM
Are expensive components any better than cheap stuff?
no.
http://www.diystompboxes.com/wiki/index.php?title=DIY_FAQ
Some rules have exceptions.
Some statements are based on opinion.
If you buy expensive parts it's good for the expensive parts producer/distributor.
I like using all parts that are good, brownie caps might be ok..so I tend toward not using them at all.
I used to screw around with used electro's but quit, finding 'noise culprits' is much easier when reliable parts are used.
I didn't compare low noise resistors to regular ones in J. Davissons Blackfire [not even on the input stage], I think it'd be an interesting study in resistor noise, being super high gain and having large value base bias resistors.
Being new to this, I will of course have some "newbie" questions...
What are "brownies"? Is this a type of cap, a color, or a brand?
Also, I recently bought an old Conn organ at a yard sale, and I scavenged about 300 old (huge) caps from it including some old blue molded plastic types that look like suppositories. Are these of any use? I have heard that these blue caps were used in old Fender amps.
Lastly, where can I buy (online) precision parts? Cost is not a concern, I would rather get the right stuff now.
Thanks!
Axl Bundy
google
look for
Jung and Marsh
Steve bench
Some of the cap companies have nice PDFs
Look at the sencore site for the LC meter PDF
Things like voltage difference across the plates causing dielectric stress and the time it takes to "relax" it something you might hear
Caps often don't cost a lot so try different ones.
Quote from: Baktown on August 12, 2007, 11:30:04 AM
Being new to this, I will of course have some "newbie" questions...
What are "brownies"? Is this a type of cap, a color, or a brand?
Also, I recently bought an old Conn organ at a yard sale, and I scavenged about 300 old (huge) caps from it including some old blue molded plastic types that look like suppositories. Are these of any use? I have heard that these blue caps were used in old Fender amps.
Lastly, where can I buy (online) precision parts? Cost is not a concern, I would rather get the right stuff now.
Thanks!
Axl Bundy
smallbearelec.com
mouser.com
digikey.com
Quote from: Baktown on August 12, 2007, 11:30:04 AM
Being new to this, I will of course have some "newbie" questions...
What are "brownies"? Is this a type of cap, a color, or a brand?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Chocolate_brownies_without_table.jpg/250px-Chocolate_brownies_without_table.jpg)
I don't know about the capacitance but they are notorious for their short lifespan.
Try some plastic coating! ::)
Do they have the special green ingredient? If so, I imagine they DO have a short life span!
Axl Bundy
So old electrolytic polarized caps have a shelf life, what about non polarized caps of smaller values?
Axl Bundy
Quote from: Baktown on August 12, 2007, 11:30:04 AM
Also, I recently bought an old Conn organ at a yard sale, and I scavenged about 300 old (huge) caps from it
Hey Baktown...what kind of transistors did you find in that thing?
Potential for some Ge mining..depending on the model
Also, I recently bought an old Conn organ at a yard sale, and I scavenged about 300 old (huge) caps from it
"Old"..."Huge"...
I noticed only a couple bad non-electro type caps, and I've done Lots of salvaging, sorting for boards which look clean/non burnt or heated.
"Huge' has obvious disadvantages, when you populate the board, and the leads are too thick for the holes.
I prefer new caps, they're easier to work with anyway, and offer assurances salvaged parts cant, my salvaged components tend to find socketted positions to be placed/tested in.
nothing better than starting with a new, polarized electrolytic, carefull placed for polarity, never reverse polarized.
Axl - great questions...
Sometimes one gets started with DIY effects to save money other times people want to create effects 'exactly' like the one's made in the '60's and '70's (among 100's of other reasons people get into DIY electronics...) - both objectives are attainable easily - once one has made 5 to 10 projects; of which one will struggle through the first 2 and only 1/2 of them will work right; but, once one gets 5 to 10 projects under their belt (which may take 6 months) one will discover that the quality and variety of effects that they can build is only limited by imagination, time, patience and sometimes money.
Everyone has an opinion on this, and everyone that has responded to this is correct, but it really depends on your objective and what the component is being used for. For example, if your objective is to make a really good overdrive and you only want to put $20 and a couple of days effort into it - I have built some great overdrive pedals from scavenged parts out of old radios; then the answer to your questions is "not really": But, if your objective is to build a fuzz that sounds exactly like what you hear on Jimi's first album - then you will need to do some research, spend more time/money and do things very carefully; then the answer to your questions is "absolutely".
Keep in mind that all of the people here are on a continuum from artist-hacks to engineer-scientists (most being somewhere in between) and have developed, or are developing, a sense of their own need for component tolerances. For instance one person may use old electrolytic caps because 'heck, if it fails in a cool way - I'm all over that!!'. And other people are at the opposite end of the continuum and think that life is too short for open-ended experiments and they carefully order and measure things to get it exactly right the first time. You may get 100 opinions - none of which may be valid for your ears in the end - I think you have to try both approaches to find out what you like and what you think "sounds different"...
I don't have an answer for you, but my opinion on all 3 questions is: yes. :icon_biggrin:
Toney,
The Conn organ was loaded with tubes, not a transistor to be found! Nearly all the tubes are branded Conn, and most are 12AU7's.
If anyone needs any of these, let me know, and I'll send you some (free, of course!).
Axl Bundy
Wow. Maybe some tube sockets ? I'll pay you for putting some of them in the mail. PM me if you care to unscrew those sockets.
By the way: Very nice post up there Mojotron.
Unfortunately, the tube sockets were riveted to the aluminum housings the components were in. I tried to salvage one and it crumbled to pieces.
Sorry!
Axl Bundy
One simple example, the Dist+.
I solder a socket for the IC. The LM741 is an old chip, there are others better than the 741 like the TL071. But no one sounds like the 741, at least if you want that sound. Also, some replace the tantalum with a poly, but again you are departing from the original tone.
If you want to build a clone as close as the original, you need to know what kind of caps, transistors, IC, etc, the original had. Maybe the low currents involved may not tell the difference when using metal film or std resistors. Resistors may be, maybe not the less critical parts when preserving the original tone.
But what is the original tone? If you want to sound like Jimi in album "xxxxx", you need his guitar, the cables, the amp, the tubes, the mods, the room's acoustic, the techs, etc... and his fingers.
In other words, with my guitar and amp, my really good sounding dist+ will never sound like Randy Rhoads'. But I really don't care.
My advice is, except for salvaged Ge transistors, buy a breadboard and try changing resistors and cap types, and develop your own sound.
mac