Hi everyone-
I am attempting to build a Kay Fuzz clone and I as a relative newbie to DIY, I have a few questions. First, can anyone confirm that this schematic is correct? http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=22960&g2_GALLERYSID=189a159106b2971581908e9b389e541b (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=22960&g2_GALLERYSID=189a159106b2971581908e9b389e541b)I see that this was redrawn by Aron, but before I order parts I wanted to see if anyone has actually used this. Also, can someone help me with what diodes and transistors I can use? The OA 90's (germanium)I have found as an NTE110A equivalent, but Steve at Small Bear advised my to avoid NTE if possible. The transistors are another problem...I haven't found anything on the 2SC644S and Small Bear has 2SC828A-R but not 2SC828R. Steve seemed to think they will work, but again advised I post here. As for the 2SC945's, I think I have found them at Parts Express however, they have no pic to help me confirm. Any help is greatly appreciated!
Cheers.
Jon
this might interest you
http://analogguru.100free.com/193/schematics/Kay_F-1_FuzzTone.gif
Nice ...
The page says the file is deleted or missing.
Jon
look here then
http://i31.tinypic.com/npm6ow.gif
If those are silicons then 2n3904, bc549c or 2n5088 will work.
Reminds me the Green ringer but using transistors instead of diodes. And those clipping diodes at the output put some distortion and smooth the signal. I'm going to try it.
mac
Thanks guys. I did find some 2SC644, 2SC945, and 2SC828's as well as the OA 90's on ebay this morning. Way overpriced though. I am planning on using 1/4 watt metal film and carbon film caps. Any reason to use 1/2 watt? This will be my first complete build and I want to cover all bases before making my order this week. Also, for the polyester caps, I was thinking about using Xicon high voltage (250V and 630V) for the .1, .0022, and .0047mF caps. Any advise here?
Thanks again.
Jon
www.futurlec.com
Both Chris from Ottawa and myself have messed with this circuit on and off for many months and none of the schematics were correct if I recall correctly. Unfortunately, I can't open the links here to check the schem but off the top of my head, the 100K over the octave section (Q3 and 4) should be a 10K and the 100K at the end of the circuit should be removed all together. I used 2N5089's through out with success. I don't know how authentic this version sounds but the fuzz and octave are simply outrageous. Before making the mods, the circuit barely worked. Mine is still on a bread board that my cat keeps knocking on the floor so I'll eventually get myself a wah enclosure and box it up. I have tried silicon and germanium in the circuit, the 1n914's take it over the top.
What ever you do, bread board it first.
Chris
Thanks Chris-
I am going to use an etch design to build a pcb. I downloaded it from ustomp a while ago. This person made a stomp box out of it, but I am going to house it a wah case. You can download/view it here: http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Schematics-etc/kayfuzzbuild.pdf.html (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Schematics-etc/kayfuzzbuild.pdf.html) It appears that he has already changed the 100k resistors to 10k. I am going to play with the 200k resistor and 50k pot at the end to achieve the sweep and tone change I want. I think I will start with a 100k pot and work from there. From your experience, does this look functional to you? Being new to this, breadboarding will be as much work as making the pcbs!
Thanks again for your help.
Jon
Okay, I have been looking into breadboarding and have decided to take your advice Chris. Seems like the right thing to start with.
Jon
Jon,
When you breadboard it, follow the schematic, not the layout, it'll be a lot less confusing. This was only the sceond thing I ever tried on a breadboard so I was thrilled to get it working. If you get stuck, I'll send you a photo of my board if my cats haven't squashed it again.
Chris
QuoteWhat ever you do, bread board it first.
+1
Never build a project, this or another, without trying it first on the breadboard!
mac
Chris-
Thanks for your kind offer! I plan to order everything this week and hopefully start on it next week. A question about breadboarding...how do you supply power? Do you place the jack into the breadboard and supply power through that or does a breadboard have another means to supply power.
Jon
My BB has two pairs of power lines. I just use a dc jack for chassis, and I soldered two wires that I connect to the power rails. I also have a some volume pots, the output jack, the input jack with two gnd wires for both gnd rails, and a bypass switch if necessary. Lots of alligators with the other end free to connect to the BB.
I was thinking of taking a picture of my breaboard and all the parts I have to simplify projects. Also the way I connect things.
mac
Mac-
Thanks for the info. I will put either a 9v bat connector to the rails or solder the jack and connect it to the rails. I think I understand that for the jacks and pots you solder leads to them and connect the opposite ends to the BB? I can see I will need to buy a larger BB than I had originally thought, since I will need room to place these things without a structure (pcb) to support it. What size would be recommended?
Jon
I have 2 BB, looks like 15 x 6 cm. Enough space for a Phase90 with 6 LM741.
Yes I solder wires of different colors to the pots and jack with the other end free to connect to the BB, telephone wires.
For example white to the center lug, blue to the right and yellow to the left (looking from above).
ALso many red and blue wires to ground emiters or opamps, and others of different lenght and colors.
Once you have those simple tools you can BB a BMP of FF while tubes warm up.
Take a look at this. I was testing electro vs. poly caps in a Tone Bender MKII. No need to say which sounded better ;)
(http://geocities.com/guitarfxs/images/TBMK2_1.JPG)
(http://geocities.com/guitarfxs/images/TBMK2_2.JPG)
mac
Mac-
Thanks for the help and pics! I picked up a BB from Radio shack and a jumper kit and have been messing with it. Very quick to build and take down. I can see the value in BBing things before going to the soldering iron! I should have all my parts on Wed and hopefully I can find some time to start working on it.
Cheers.
Jon
Sorry I haven't chimed in earlier. Missed the thread until this morning.
I have a board that has 3 smaller breadboards. At one point I had the Kay Fuzztone and the JCM800 Emulator on it. It was getting heavy. :)
As 8mileshigh mentioned, I did build it. For me, the sound I was trying to emulate closest was The Edge's Elevation sound specifically from the Vertigo tour as it was really lush. I have rebuilt this circuit 3 times and finally got it.
This is the link I used: http://www.flickr.com/photos/germanium/2289446334/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/germanium/2289446334/)
Originally I started with 2n3904s using stock resistor values and it sounded like A$$. It was really thin sounding. At this point 8mileshigh and I started talking about it and I rebuilt it using 2n5088s as we figured it just needed more gain. The sound came closer but it wasn't quite right. At this point I replaced all Collector resistors with trimpots which got it even closer but it wasn't "marbly" (for lack of a better term) enough. I figured rather than dick with it more, I redid the layout as I wasn't happy with the last one and ordered the proper transistors, which ended up costing me about $20 including shipping and finally I can say it is where I like it. My advice:
1. Use trimpots for all collector resistors (so I had 6 trim pots)
2. The last 100k resistor is hit and miss. It made more of a difference on the first build than the last
3. Try cheaper priced transistors but if you are willing to shell out, get the original types. I think the key is low hfe transistors though (~100).
4. Voltages are weird, they are not 4.5 at the collector. But try to balance the voltage at Collector compared to the Emitter for Q2. As they are needed to connect to Q3 and Q4 to create the octave.
5. Try both Germanium and Silicon Diodes. They change the fuzz a bit. I added a switch to mine.
If you have problems let either me or 8mileshigh know. I think we have ripped this thing apart enough to figure out most. BTW make an audio probe (search for links) if you don't have one. It will help since this circuit has multiple parts that if one is wrong the rest will. It really came in handy in getting the final sound as I did it more by ear.
Quote from: blueherdim7 on June 24, 2008, 12:00:50 PM
Mac-
Thanks for the help and pics! I picked up a BB from Radio shack and a jumper kit and have been messing with it. Very quick to build and take down. I can see the value in BBing things before going to the soldering iron! I should have all my parts on Wed and hopefully I can find some time to start working on it.
Cheers.
Jon
I have built the kay fuzz tone, I used the schematic you posted, and also changed it to the one that ustomp posted later with some alterations. The schematic does work, but I had to build mine with trim pots instead of the resistors that feed the transistors from the +9 power and adjusted them till they sounded right. I also built it into a crybaby volume pedal enclosure using the pot that came with it, a 100k pot, worked ok, but most of the change is closer to the heel down position, works fine though. I did not breadboard it first though, the schem can be placed directly onto perf board if you look at it you will see.
That's exactly what I experienced as well with the heel down. One thing I noticed was you couldn't set the pot to the absolute limit otherwise the volume level would drop dramatically.
Out of curiousity what were the voltages you got in the end?
Quote from: BRingoC on July 02, 2008, 10:26:30 PM
I have built the kay fuzz tone, I used the schematic you posted, and also changed it to the one that ustomp posted later with some alterations. The schematic does work, but I had to build mine with trim pots instead of the resistors that feed the transistors from the +9 power and adjusted them till they sounded right. I also built it into a crybaby volume pedal enclosure using the pot that came with it, a 100k pot, worked ok, but most of the change is closer to the heel down position, works fine though. I did not breadboard it first though, the schem can be placed directly onto perf board if you look at it you will see.
I dont actually know about voltages, I have never taken any readings on it, I wont be able to try for quite a while either. I have some volume loss with the pedal as well, but it 'appears' to have be unity with the amount of low end the pedal makes. I have the pot in the pedal set to the extreme at heel down as well in order to get the pedal to create the shift in sound adequately.
I ended up finding where the volume starts to drop and then moved the pot a bit back so that is the heel down location.
Quote from: BRingoC on July 03, 2008, 06:47:57 AM
I dont actually know about voltages, I have never taken any readings on it, I wont be able to try for quite a while either. I have some volume loss with the pedal as well, but it 'appears' to have be unity with the amount of low end the pedal makes. I have the pot in the pedal set to the extreme at heel down as well in order to get the pedal to create the shift in sound adequately.
Hey guys-
Thanks for your input and help. I have completed the pcb and hooked everything up and, of course, I have problems. I can power up the LED as it should and in bypass, ie LED off I get bypassed/dry signal. The problem is when I activate the switch, all sound is lost. No grounding issues, ie buzzing...just silent. I have checked all connections and everything seems in order. Any advice? I am not sure about the power lugs and the etch build shows the jack hook ups incorrectly, I think. Do you really use the sleeve on the input to the pcb, the tip to negative and ring to the switch or am I reading this incorrectly?
Thanks for your help and patience!
Jon
Quote from: blueherdim7 on July 03, 2008, 12:15:36 PM
Do you really use the sleeve on the input to the pcb, the tip to negative and ring to the switch or am I reading this incorrectly?
Thanks for your help and patience!
Jon
The sleeve goes to ground on the PCB, the tip to the input lug on the bypass switch and the ring goes to - on the battery snap.
Roger
Thanks Roger-
That's what I thought. Can you help me with the pcb ground on this: http://ustomp.com/files/kayfuzzbuild.pdf
Cheers.
Jon
One more thing...Is it possible to wire the switch upside down? I have it wired as in the diagram, but I didn't know how to id any of the lugs.
Jon
Try Audio probe and see how far you get.
Quote from: blueherdim7 on July 03, 2008, 12:15:36 PM
Hey guys-
Thanks for your input and help. I have completed the pcb and hooked everything up and, of course, I have problems. I can power up the LED as it should and in bypass, ie LED off I get bypassed/dry signal. The problem is when I activate the switch, all sound is lost. No grounding issues, ie buzzing...just silent. I have checked all connections and everything seems in order. Any advice? I am not sure about the power lugs and the etch build shows the jack hook ups incorrectly, I think. Do you really use the sleeve on the input to the pcb, the tip to negative and ring to the switch or am I reading this incorrectly?
Thanks for your help and patience!
Jon
Cheers-
I have seen that in the debugging thread. I am away for the weekend, so, I am just thinking out loud. I will give it a go when I get back.
Thanks.
Jon
It's highly recommended. I also use it to get each transistor to an optimum sound when setting up the circuit. Especially if I don't like what it sounds like at the default values.
Quote from: blueherdim7 on July 03, 2008, 06:04:09 PM
Cheers-
I have seen that in the debugging thread. I am away for the weekend, so, I am just thinking out loud. I will give it a go when I get back.
Thanks.
Jon
Okay, guys, I have worked through with the audio probe and have found that I in fact do have sound coming from the engaged effect. It is just at an extremely low level. When I go through with the probe it seems that the volume really drops at Q3 and Q4. The base posts for each have unity but the both the emitters have almost no sound and both collectors have fuzz. I tried to swap them and have checked the solder joints, but to no avail. The voltages on each are:
Q1 B--1.152 C--1.852 E--1.147 2SC644
Q2 B--1.852 C--2.54 E--1.835 2SC945
Q3 B--1.226 C--1.890 E--1.222 2SC945
Q4 B--1.227 C--1.890 E--!.222 2SC945
Can anyone make sense of these? I am using the debuggin checklist and it said to collect these, among others. I thought I would start here since the volume drop seems to come from the transistors. Also, is it possible I have a short at Q3 and 4 to cause the volume loss?
Thank you.
Jon
Here's my voltages for my clone which really rips.
Q1 Q2 Q3 and Q4
1.8 8.7 8
.89 1.8 .89
.3 1.2 .3
BTW, I'm using 2N5089's throughout in my build.
Chris
I will see about getting mine tonight. I can't remember what they were unless 8mileshigh has my last pm with them in it :).
I used the original transistors
Quote from: 8mileshigh on July 08, 2008, 10:30:10 PM
Here's my voltages for my clone which really rips.
Q1 Q2 Q3 and Q4
1.8 8.7 8
.89 1.8 .89
.3 1.2 .3
BTW, I'm using 2N5089's throughout in my build.
Chris
See below for Rikkard's voltages.
"I set it up as per your voltages and it worked but I see what you meant about lacking sustain. Since I had pretty much done all pots for the transistors I tweaked the voltages and improved the volume and the sustain:
Q1 Q2 Q3 and Q4
5.54 6.17 4.5
0.89 4.42 1.7
0.3 3.82 1.1
Thank you guys. Is it possible that I have fried some components to have my voltages so far off from either of yours? I know that it's possible that I have either contacted the battery incorrectly or had the dc power connected wrong (it is definately correct now). I have been through the pcb for continuity and voltages and it seems that all voltage readings are lower than what I would think(no expert on ohms law here, though). I have also checked the resistors and have found that many show no resistance at all. I am going to replace the resistors and electrolytics this morning to see if that has any effect.
Guys...I am ready to bin this stupid thing!! I replaced all the 100k resistors, both diodes and all caps and I still have the same problem. Good sound in bypass and almost no sound when engaged...with no fuzz. The only way I can get sound from the engaged effect is to put my ipod into the input at full volume and have my amp at full volume. Then I can only barely hear the ipod. The voltages at the transistors are the same as I posted before and nothing like what you guys have. The information I have used to build this are here: http://ustomp.com/?paged=5
I have followed it religiously and to the best of knowledge recreated it exactly...obviously not or it would work. Rikkards and/or 8mileshigh, would either of you be willing to email me your phone number with location (read time zone) and a good time to contact you? I have put too much time into this for it not to work. But at this point, I am no longer having any fun.
Thanks for all your help.
Jon
I feel your pain. I rebuilt the circuit from scratch 3 times (actually 6 if you take into account that I proto'd it each and every time. I was really picky on what I wanted. Try trimpots for all of the Collector (and base) resistors (total of 6). I also used a different schematic (http://www.flickr.com/photos/germanium/2289446334/) which is mainly different with the resistor for the collector for Q3 and Q4 which may also show some of the discrepancies. Adjust your build to use that schematic.
Quote from: blueherdim7 on July 09, 2008, 03:01:34 PM
Guys...I am ready to bin this stupid thing!! I replaced all the 100k resistors, both diodes and all caps and I still have the same problem. Good sound in bypass and almost no sound when engaged...with no fuzz. The only way I can get sound from the engaged effect is to put my ipod into the input at full volume and have my amp at full volume. Then I can only barely hear the ipod. The voltages at the transistors are the same as I posted before and nothing like what you guys have. The information I have used to build this are here: http://ustomp.com/?paged=5
I have followed it religiously and to the best of knowledge recreated it exactly...obviously not or it would work. Rikkards and/or 8mileshigh, would either of you be willing to email me your phone number with location (read time zone) and a good time to contact you? I have put too much time into this for it not to work. But at this point, I am no longer having any fun.
Thanks for all your help.
Jon
Thank you Rikkards...I appreciate the empathy. Misery loves company!! I have picked up some trim pots and will put them in the base and collectors to try to achieve the voltages you guys listed.
Cheers.
Jon
Rikkards-
What size trim pots did you use? I have some 100k trim pots from Radio Shack that seem to trim from 39-96k. Will these work?
Jon
They should. Using the link I provided:
R2, R8, R12 - 100K trimpot
R4 - 50K Trimpot
R6, R10 - 10K Trimpot
Some tips.
Get Q1, Q2 to sound by ear
Get Q3, Q4 Base to same voltage
Quote from: blueherdim7 on July 09, 2008, 09:57:13 PM
Rikkards-
What size trim pots did you use? I have some 100k trim pots from Radio Shack that seem to trim from 39-96k. Will these work?
Jon
I got a tip from someone who has built this pedal as well. Is it possible that my transistors have a differnent pinout arrangement? How would I be able to determine this without trial and error on the pcb?
Jon
Well, after some hunting, I found datasheets for my transistors. With only three pins there is exactly one configuration that would make all pins incorrect on the board and, of course, this is my problem. The pcb is configured for CBE and my transistors are all ECB...go figure. Now, I can't wait to get home to swap the leads around and see if this is the only reason it doesn't work! :icon_twisted:
Jon
Hope it works!
Quote from: blueherdim7 on July 11, 2008, 05:58:48 PM
Well, after some hunting, I found datasheets for my transistors. With only three pins there is exactly one configuration that would make all pins incorrect on the board and, of course, this is my problem. The pcb is configured for CBE and my transistors are all ECB...go figure. Now, I can't wait to get home to swap the leads around and see if this is the only reason it doesn't work! :icon_twisted:
Jon
Well, I am the proud owner of a functioning kay fuzz clone!! I do, however, have a problem with my ground. With the effect engaged and the treadle in the full down postion, I have radio interference. It is most noticable in the down position, but, I can hear it anytime the effect is engaged. I can't seem to find the problem. I checked to make sure the pcb isn't touching the enclosure and I have tried probing with a wire to the ground, but no luck. Any ideas?
Cheers.
Jon
That's great! We need sound clips though!!
Are you using the case as a ground for one of the jacks? I remember one of my pedals had that if the jack wasn't touching the case. It wasn't the Kay though.
Quote from: blueherdim7 on July 14, 2008, 06:02:48 PM
Well, I am the proud owner of a functioning kay fuzz clone!! I do, however, have a problem with my ground. With the effect engaged and the treadle in the full down postion, I have radio interference. It is most noticable in the down position, but, I can hear it anytime the effect is engaged. I can't seem to find the problem. I checked to make sure the pcb isn't touching the enclosure and I have tried probing with a wire to the ground, but no luck. Any ideas?
Cheers.
Jon
Thanks Rikkards. I don't have the jacks grounded to the case. I think i will make a faraday cage and tie a ground from a jack to the case to the case backing and see if that stops it. I kind of don't think it will, though, because there is no interference when in bypass.
Cheers,
Jon
Hey, that's great. How does it sound ? What are your voltage reading now ?
I should really try to record my clone but I'm just too busy these days. I'll eventually get around to it, perhaps after my vacation.
Chris
It sounds very good! I will post some clips after I work out the ground issue and tweak the pot sweep so I have a larger sweet spot. Thanks again for you help and support!
Regards,
Jon
Promises, promises :)
Quote from: 8mileshigh on July 14, 2008, 08:32:17 PM
I should really try to record my clone but I'm just too busy these days. I'll eventually get around to it, perhaps after my vacation.
Chris
Ha, maybe just the motivation in need :icon_lol: Give until the end of the week, promise....
Chris
Well guys, I would like to extend my sincere appreciation for everyone's input in helping me with my first diy project!! My kay fuzz clone is now included in my rig. I had some copper shielding tape left over from a guitar project, but, I still have a bit of radio interference. It is lost easily in the fuzz and backing tracks, though. I plan to swap the transistors I have in it for some 2N5088/9 I have coming later this week. Hopefully some more modern, higher quality transistors than the originals will close this loop. I haven't had time to reopen it and get the voltages, but maybe next week. Anyway, here is a quick clip of it. Please forgive the shotty timing as I am trying to sneak this in before I give my 3 year old his bath and put him in bed! Still some tweaking to do to get right in my setup. You can download it here: https://www.yousendit.com/download/TTdGanZnYTJPSHp2Wmc9PQ
Again, many thanks to all especially 8mileshigh and Rikkards!!
Cheers,
Jon
Stick a teeny touch of capacitence in there, at the input, just enough to shunt the really HF's to ground and still retain most of the treble...?
Sounds good!
You will find with the 5088s that the distortion will probably smooth out (if that makes sense). It gets less rough sounding. That's why I went with the original transistors. Also remember that the 5088 is the CBE layout so it will work with your existing layout without having to move the leads around.
Quote from: blueherdim7 on July 16, 2008, 09:54:21 PM
Well guys, I would like to extend my sincere appreciation for everyone's input in helping me with my first diy project!! My kay fuzz clone is now included in my rig. I had some copper shielding tape left over from a guitar project, but, I still have a bit of radio interference. It is lost easily in the fuzz and backing tracks, though. I plan to swap the transistors I have in it for some 2N5088/9 I have coming later this week. Hopefully some more modern, higher quality transistors than the originals will close this loop. I haven't had time to reopen it and get the voltages, but maybe next week. Anyway, here is a quick clip of it. Please forgive the shotty timing as I am trying to sneak this in before I give my 3 year old his bath and put him in bed! Still some tweaking to do to get right in my setup. You can download it here: https://www.yousendit.com/download/TTdGanZnYTJPSHp2Wmc9PQ
Again, many thanks to all especially 8mileshigh and Rikkards!!
Cheers,
Jon
for the radio interferences try puttin some caps (100pF) between C and B of the transistors, i've done this on my octane2 clone and all the radios and some noise went away!