I know this has been beat to death but I need a clear consensus of what is the hardest most durable clear coat to put on pedals... I tried finger nail polish... ah no, Krylon acrylic clear... nice clear but not really durable..., clear epoxy... wouldnt self level, lacquer... again wouldnt self level.... does anyone have a secret out there... I want a hard durable clear coat. The epoxy and lacquer looked like water droplets on the pedal, not a bad effect if thats what your going for....
and yeah I've searched it and have read them all...
I just want a hey this works, I know because I did it.
I've had good results with laquer, could it be more technique than product? Doing thin layers and then building them up gradually is usually the best way to do it and i've not had a problem with leveling and it's been very durable. Although I suppose brand may have something to do with it, I just use generic car paint laquer.
I haven't figured out how to do it yet, but a polyurethane might be the way I want to go. Haven't truly researched it, but maybe it'll be work looking at.
Jacob
water droplets on the pedal? something went wrong with your lacquer. you want to use a spray lacquer, and apply in a moisture free, low humidity environment. applied best at around 70 degrees. apply several thin coats in multiple applications, don't worry about getting every millimeter right away, lacquer builds up, and from my experience self-levels very well. i've used lacquer with great success for years. my favorite method involves a layer of matte spray paint followed by a lacquer coat. also great is appliance epoxy, but the color palette is limited.
Epoxy or polyeurethane resin is what you're looking for. If you search out a Glassfibre kit, you can get a nice thin resin (acetone should work for thinning further), which sets mad hard in minutes. You can brush it on thick with a soft brush, and it will level itself, provided you move quickly. It basically goes on like Hammerite, it creeps slowly. Look for the stuff you use for a Gel coat and you should be golden ;)
Epoxy is definitely the hardest clear coat, short of exotic aircraft paint or something. I've used this stuff:
http://www.kmart.com/shc/s/p_10151_10104_1990000000268430P?vName=For%20the%20Home&cName=Crafts&sName=Kits&psid=FROOGLE&sid=KDx20070926x00003a
If yours didn't self-level, you were using the wrong stuff. The easy cast resin or similar is fluid, not viscous, and it will self level. The only things that are irritating are that it takes around 24 hours to harden, and I had a hard time keeping little bits of dust or pet hair out of it, which ruins the smoothness of the finish. If you have a way to get this stuff out of the air (extraction system) then this is the best clear finish available IMO.
Agreed. Perhaps making a 'clean air' box would help?
Having said that, you can usually get some form of UV catalyst that will help cure the resin in a couple of hours/minutes. Also, you know you can polish epoxy with buffing compound?
Quote from: Jaicen_solo on February 07, 2010, 05:47:55 PM
Agreed. Perhaps making a 'clean air' box would help?
Having said that, you can usually get some form of UV catalyst that will help cure the resin in a couple of hours/minutes. Also, you know you can polish epoxy with buffing compound?
Toothpaste makes a great cheap buffing compound just for reference and leaves your effects minty fresh :icon_mrgreen:
Indeed it does, but only the oldksool white type. Gel type toothpastes or pastes with bits in is no good of course!
Having said that, you can get a big tube of basic buffing compound for less than £1 ($1.60 or thereabouts).
Envirotex
It's a catalyzed epoxy, very good at self leveling, clear as glass, and is quite durable.
Get it from Ace hardware, Lowes, Michael's arts and crafts etc..
I also use epoxy. I don't even need to polish. Then end up glass-shine all by themselves! Takes forever to harden, though. Two days, to be sure. Half if you keep a hot lamp on it.
Etienne, what kind of setup do you use for doing your epoxy? I've been trying to figure out how to do it without the drips hardening on the lower edges, and without those little bits of dust giving me divots in the finish.
thanks guys... I guess the temp had something to do with the non self leveling...umm bout 40 degrees outside in a cold ass shop..
Etienne, your boxes look awesome. I really want to try the epoxy method soon.
I have had good results with clear lacquer but it's definitely tricky. My best method involved clearing a box on a piece of thin wood and
covering the box with a clear baking dish. I live in a bungalow in LA that was built in the 20's and the heater for the place is old school
where the vent is on the floor in the living room. I turn that up to around 70 degrees and place the box on it for 15 to twenty minutes,
open all the windows in the place, and place a fan on high in one of the closest windows. Not a great way to do it but it works.
I've done a couple of boxes this way and lay on a heavy coat of lacquer and put it in my makeshift living room oven. As the clear gets warm
it levels beautifully. I used the same clear yesterday but used my old toaster oven which has a minimum of 150 degrees. This high of a temp
causes those ugly bubbles. Too hot. Probably best to do really light coats and bake minimally at that temperature. A toaster at 90-100 degrees
would be better.
I don't plan on using my living room method much in the future. It's gross but works. maybe using a couple of lamps with the bulbs really close to the
box would be better. Good luck, it can be frustrating. A little heat with lacquer produces good results if your experiments with epoxy don't work...
I stopped using light bulbs because they tend to produce uneven heat, and are very inefficient by allowing too
much of the heat to escape. Sure it works... but there's got to be a better way.
So I built a simple "curing station", and it works much better.
It's just an ordinary cardboard box lined with bubblewrap to act as a sort of insulation... and it uses a heating
pad as the floor. It's the kind of heating pad you'd use for a bad back, the perfect size for a box. The heating
pad is temperature controlled/regulated so the box maintains a perfect 80 F degrees, even with my workshop
temps dropping into the low thirties at night. The heating pad cost me about 8 bux at Sears. The bubblewrap
was free and makes for pretty good insulation.
This setup works surprisingly well. The box is very effective at preventing particle contamination to a freshly
wetted surface, and it also helps to keep the fumes under wraps. Plus it all folds away nicely when not in use.
This project is a keeper.
pictures of all of these various clear coating techniques and ideas would probably be a great help to people like the OP and myself and others! If you have the time of course...
Jacob
I never tried epoxy, can I apply it on a box with decals?
Like the heating pad idea a lot. From my experience, toaster ovens are too hot and I get bubbles.
I think I will try coating enclosure on a cookie sheet, place the cooking sheet over a heating pad, and cover the cooking sheet with my glass casserole dish (to trap heat and hide the enclosure from dust). 80 degrees should be enough heat to help the coat flow and level. With an extension cord, I can do this outside and cook it for however long and then let it sit overnight....
Here's a few pix of my latest project... a PT-80.
It's super hard to get good photos because it is almost TOO glossy.
(http://home.swbell.net/deewm/images/PT80-1.jpg)
(http://home.swbell.net/deewm/images/PT80-2.jpg)
(http://home.swbell.net/deewm/images/PT80-3.jpg)
(http://home.swbell.net/deewm/images/PT80-4.jpg)
I used Envirotex, a two part epoxy for the clear coat.
You just mix it 1:1 and pour it on. Use a stick or toothpick, or whatever to spread it around. Allow the excess to drip off.
I should have scraped the excess drip off with a toothpick... but I didn't wanna open up my curing booth and risk getting
dust in the finish.
The instructions suggest: To remove any micro air bubbles, just breathe on it gently. The bubbles will rise to the surface
and pop.
They actually recommend using a propane torch... which I did, and it works really well. (who figgered that out???)
Anyway... this stuff levels out extremely well... hardens to a SUPER DEEP gloss, crystal clear, and quite hard, though it will
scratch if you really abuse it. It's pretty durable... I'm real happy with it. Envirotex is definitely good stuff. Worth every penny.
BUT keep in mind that it has to cure slow in order to have such good leveling properties... so I think it's critically important to
let it cure it inside a box to prevent dust contamination.
This project was rock hard after 24 hours in my curing chamber. It might have been fully cured before that, but I didn't bother
to check it.
looks great, head spaz! Will try envirotex!
My question about that self leveling: How does it go around the corners of the box? do you pour it on the top, and then it drips fairly evenly over all four sides? How thick is it on the corners/edges? And how would you remove it if there was a mistake?
Jacob
Quote from: 23 on February 07, 2010, 03:24:59 PM
I know this has been beat to death but I need a clear consensus of what is the hardest most durable clear coat to put on pedals... I tried finger nail polish... ah no, Krylon acrylic clear... nice clear but not really durable..., clear epoxy... wouldnt self level, lacquer... again wouldnt self level.... does anyone have a secret out there... I want a hard durable clear coat. The epoxy and lacquer looked like water droplets on the pedal, not a bad effect if thats what your going for....
and yeah I've searched it and have read them all...
I just want a hey this works, I know because I did it.
First, "hard" and "durable" are two very different things. A harder finish will tend to be brittler, and will be more prone to most types of damage (chipping, scratches, etc.).
Second, the one most important secret to ANY finish work is sanding/good prep work. Its always a temptation to skimp on prep work so you can get to the part where you get to put on your pretty colors or fancy graphics.
Don't give in to that temptation.
Ideally, before you start any kind of finish work you surface should be so nice that you don't want to put any finish on it. If you can find any imperfections in the surface, you have work to do. My main material is wood, but metal is no different when it comes to the importance of prep work. Sand each grit until you have a perfect surface. Don't skip grits. Don't ever say, "that's good enough." When it comes to surface prep, the only thing that is "good enough" is perfect. Trust me, you can do it. Its boring, but you can do it.
Also, when it comes to spray finishes, though I know the internet always tells people to spray light coats, I've got to tell you that no professional finisher would ever do so. Ever. It wastes time (because you have to spray too many coats), a dry coat of finish will never level properly, and will never really flow together right. Also, from the point of view of a professional, you want to get as much finish on as possible without sags, so you can spray fewer coats, which saves both time and money!
But even if you are not a professional, if you want things to look good, you MUST spray a wet coat - while avoiding sags - or your finish just won't look right. On my guitars (yeah, they're wood, but after the first coat of finish the material underneath doesn't matter, I'm spraying finish on finish), I spray "double coats," which is to say, I spray one (barely) wet coat, and then as soon as I finish the first coat, I immediately spray a second (barely) wet coat. This allows the finish to flow out better, and is less likely to sag than just spraying one heavier coat. Success spraying a flat wet coat, however, comes down to technique and experience. Until you get the experience, you just have to deal with sanding out the sags (try strip sanding - you use a small strip of sand paper, hold it down with one finger directly on the sag, and pull with your other hand - it makes getting rid of sags a lot easier), and be careful not to sand through. Oh, and the other part of spraying a flat wet coat? Good surface prep. Scratches can cause sags, as they break the surface tension.
So, I guess what I'm saying is the problem is likely not the finish material you are using, but your technique. The one thing which is certain, though, is that the better your surface prep, the better your final finish.
Quote from: Taylor on February 07, 2010, 05:41:17 PM
Epoxy is definitely the hardest clear coat, short of exotic aircraft paint or something. I've used this stuff:
Most epoxies don't actually dry all that hard. Finishing type epoxy (bar top finish epoxy, or certain marine epoxies) will certainly be durable, but is usually pretty soft, relatively speaking. When thin enough, they can seem hard, but don't be fooled - they aren't particularly. They do self level pretty well, at the expensive of excessive thickness (which looks cheesy to me - kind of like the crap Fender was doing in the seventies).
Actually, the hardest finish I can think of off the top of my head is Shellac, which when properly dry in a thin film, is crystal hard, but it is also rather brittle and not particularly durable. (Don't ever spill your beer near it!)
Sorry about the length - I'm kind of a wordy guy.
Gabriel
Hello,
Haven't built anything in quite awhile but for my last pedals used the waterbased sanding sealer and lacquer sold by Stewart Macdonald. Took a ridiculous number of coats (and wet sanding back) over the course of many days to build up a level finish but the results i think were worth it. Being water based there's no noxious fumes so can spray inside year round without driving us all outside.
For dust protection i just pop the enclosure into an old shoebox 'til it's time for the next coat. Like the heating pad idea, have to give that a try, basement can get pretty cool in the winter.
Temperature is definitely a factor, even outdoor house paints wants at least 10°C (50F) before using.
For those in a hurry, Beavis audio in the instructions for finishing a box in a day, suggest using a waterbased polyurethane as the finish of choice. http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages/boxinaday.html
Take care,
dave
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/davent/IMG_1638.jpg)
will give envirotex a try soon..... I prep my boxes well but tend to like some small imperfections for some reason or another, I usually do the duplicolor transparent paints with a design buffed into the metal, ya know, faux wood grain, swirls, sunburst type things... I just need a good durable, glossy coat to go on top thats better than Krylon acrylic clear.... I took screws and a piece of wood to make a platform to hold the pedal up and use a pyrex dish to cover for dust.
Thanks for you input, Gabriel. For some reason, I was under the impression that cured epoxy was hard as a rock. Nice to know that may not be so.
I think epoxy looked appealing because of the cloudscapes' boxes. I'm sure the finish may not be great for every graphic but I think it looks nice
in a jpg format. Would like to see an epoxied box in person....
Well, I guess isn't hard. It dries to a plastic-y consistency. But it is durable, in the sense that you can stomp on it a lot and the finish won't come off.
Quote from: Taylor on February 09, 2010, 04:02:38 AM
Well, I guess isn't hard. It dries to a plastic-y consistency.
Exactly the word for it - plastic-y. Its not soft like taffy or anything, it just isn't as hard as most really fine finishes.
Now, if I were looking for a clear coat that could be done easily at home while achieving really fine results, I'd at least try Stew-Mac's waterborne lacquers, as has already been mentioned. I might want to spray it over a layer of shellac, since I don't know its adhesion properties with metals. It would take a bit longer, but in the end, if you take your time with surface prep, sand appropriately between coats, and wet sand and polish at the end, it could blow peoples minds. But then, I'm just trying to get my head around Slade's etching techniques, and don't have any real desire to try a clear coat on pedals, since I do enough of that on guitars!
Gabriel
but wouldnt you want to clear an etched pedal as well? Ive never done etching as Im really a colour person, wouldnt mind trying it tho. A clear would keep it from collecting finger prints right? or do you not highly polish them enough to worry about finger tip oil? I think I would leave little imperfections in them for a more industrial look... shrug
I've used Conservators Wax® on bare aluminum amp chassis' and it does a good job of preventing finger marks from showing. I bought mine here, little tin should last a life time. http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20090&cat=1,190,42950
dave
Hey Gabriel,
Do you recommend wet sanding shellac between stages, as well? I assume the answer is yes. I guess I will have to experiment. I did one
pedal, that I ended up sanding off, with shellac but didn't care for the results. It was an amber shellac, but I assume there is a clear shellac?
For shellac, would it be advisable to use a spray vs. brushed on?
Thx in advance!
Quote from: jkokura on February 08, 2010, 02:40:51 AM
My question about that self leveling: How does it go around the corners of the box? do you pour it on the top, and then it drips fairly evenly over all four sides? How thick is it on the corners/edges? And how would you remove it if there was a mistake?
It self-levels amazingly... I just poured it across the top of the box & the bottom panel and it started leveling immediately and pouring over the sides. Any place that wasn't covered just took another tiny pour and a careful brushing with one of those wood-handled foam brushes (use a clean one). The corners were covered perfectly. If not, just pour a tiny bit more over the corner in question -- so long as it's still wet / within the first 10 minutes or so after mixing-- and watch it level out.
Thickness on corners/edges looks uniform with the rest of the box. Very smooth, glass-like appearance all around. It seems a little thicker at the edges along the bottom of the box, but nothing too bad...
As for making a mistake, the instructions are good at outlining possible less-than-favorable scenarios, how you got there, and how to remedy it. A lot of their fixes involve sanding and re-pouring. Or removing w/acetone.
I just tried this on a box this weekend, and it is quite amazing.
A few tips I learned from my first time using it:
1. Have the box raised unless you want to cement it to whatever surface its sitting on. I took a small board and drove 8 screws into it (2 groups of 4 - one for the box, the other for the lid/bottom panel). Make sure the screws are level all around. I then made a small foil tray underneath it all to catch any excess ooze, and threw a bunch of newspaper underneath it all.
2. if you're using the 16oz. bottles, probably 1/4 from each bottle (as it's mixed to a 1:1 ratio) is sufficient to cover a small box.
3. Have a small pin handy. The expoy will flow into any drilled holes, and sometimes gather in them (it's pretty viscous stuff). If that happens, just stick the pin into the clogged hole, and run it in circles around the circumference of the hole. Keep going until the stuff pours clear through. I forget at what point I did this, but it was within the first hour or so.
4. You'll see bubbles in the epoxy while mixing. Don't worry about them. They'll disappear when you pour.
5. The bubbles that the directions warn you about seem to be pretty rare, and a little heat will get rid of them. Just catch 'em while it's still liquid / as they appear. I held a lighter near the one that I had, and it just popped, and filled itself back in with epoxy, as it was still liquid.
One more tip - this stuff is gonna ooze into the holes in a pre-drilled enclosure. Even after using the pin-scraping method above to clear out the majority of the goo, you'd benefit from carefully scraping the insides of any holes with a knife, preferably sharp and preferably from the inside of the enclosure, to clear the inner edges of the holes of any Envirotex, else your jacks, pots and LEDs may not fit.
Quote from: davent on February 08, 2010, 10:49:47 AM
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/davent/IMG_1638.jpg)
Where did you get these knobs?
http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=727
Quote from: head_spaz on February 08, 2010, 12:50:40 AM
(http://home.swbell.net/deewm/images/PT80-4.jpg)
What did you use to mount the standoffs in the enclosure? JB Weld? Any notes on positioning them correctly?
I used JB weld and it worked quite well. I couldn't break them loose with all the thumb pressure I could muster.
Alignment is the easiest part.
Tips...
1.) Use the tip of a needle file to scratch up the surface inside the enclosure where the standoffs are to be glued.
2.) Attach the standoffs to your PCB with screws and snug 'em up tight.
3.) Use some coarse sandpaper to scratch up the sides of each standoff.... but only on the ends.
4.) Mix up some JB Weld (thoroughly!!!) and place a blob of spooey on the end of each standoff - using a toothpick to work some glue into the threads.
5.) Then add a thick blobbette of excess goo around the sides of each standoff.
6.) Then position the whole assembly into the enclosure... and secure it with weight, clamps, or whatever, until the JB Weld cures.
The excess JB Weld, from step 5, will flow down around the standoffs and glue them to the enclosure perfectly. It forms a nice filet at the joint that would make a welder proud.
And that be do it.
Justa lik'a dowwwn towwwn.
Quote from: head_spaz on April 02, 2010, 07:33:09 PM
I used JB weld and it worked quite well. I couldn't break them loose with all the thumb pressure I could muster.
Alignment is the easiest part.
Tips...
1.) Use the tip of a needle file to scratch up the surface inside the enclosure where the standoffs are to be glued.
2.) Attach the standoffs to your PCB with screws and snug 'em up tight.
3.) Use some coarse sandpaper to scratch up the sides of each standoff.... but only on the ends.
4.) Mix up some JB Weld (thoroughly!!!) and place a blob of spooey on the end of each standoff - using a toothpick to work some glue into the threads.
5.) Then add a thick blobbette of excess goo around the sides of each standoff.
6.) Then position the whole assembly into the enclosure... and secure it with weight, clamps, or whatever, until the JB Weld cures.
The excess JB Weld, from step 5, will flow down around the standoffs and glue them to the enclosure perfectly. It forms a nice filet at the joint that would make a welder proud.
And that be do it.
Justa lik'a dowwwn towwwn.
Awesome! Thank you for the info. That is a tidy build!
Quote from: Taylor on April 02, 2010, 03:26:53 PM
http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=727
Do you know if these are push on or do they have a set screw. I need small diameter knobs with a set screw because I have round shaft pots.
Pretty sure all of Small Bear's knobs are made to fit 1/4" solid shafts, and have a set screw.
I've seen people say "clear nail varnish- nah" but not really why: does it just not self level very well or is there something more to it?
i don't think it would be a hard enough finish. for nails sure, but for a box that your stepping on etc.. i'd think it would get dented and scraped off too easily.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CLEAR-ACRYLIC-LACQUER-PROTECTIVE-SCRATCH-RESIST-COATING_W0QQitemZ280488272069QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item414e6760c5
noname acrylic lacquer, good enough?
yeah, i think laquer is pretty tough, with spray laquer, you probably want to do a few thin coats letting each coat dry between rather than one thick coat. laquer is kind of syrupy and can trick you into thinking it won't run, but if you lay iton too thick it will.
i've used enamel on bare metal, its a bit brittle and so a few of my boxes have a few chips in the paint but it bonds to CLEAN aluminum pretty good and it dries very hard .but i think that envirotex epoxy stuff looks great and pretty easy to use.