I've bien reading about which solder to use for audio circuits.
Some say to use regular lead+Sn because it melts with less temperature and its easier to use, others say to use lead free (Sn+Cu?) because it's not toxic, and other suggest Sn+Ag because silver gives better conductivity.
So far I've been using Sn+Ag, but its hard to melt (even though I use a 0.3mm solder) and I'm worried about overheating diodes or caps.
Should I change to Sn alone or Sn+Pb?
which one do you guys recommend?
I use 63/37 eutectic tin-lead. Eutectic is the name for the alloying proportion that has the lowest melting point and goes instantly from liquid to solid, unlike other proportions that go theough a plastic state. If I could get a lower melting point with non-toxic additives like bismuth, i would use it.
Not only is the EU RoHS initiative making manufacturer's lifes hard , it's actually more damaging to the nature .
Damn the RoHS .
Go 63/37 . :icon_mrgreen:
You need a hot iron and a quick technique to use lead-free solder. There are people here who have great results with it, but I've always found that it's a PITA and that it eats up iron tips. So I use 60/40 or 63/37. YMMV.
There have also been reports of lead-free solder failing over time, and I've read that it is even banned for use in some mission-critical applications.
+1 on the eutectic 63/37 alloy.
the poisonous lead emitting from the DIY community into nature is minimal at worst. unless you build to sell, as long as there are 60/40 to be sold/bought, stay with it. it makes your life easier
J
EDIT: as a side note. the car building industry is exempt from the ROHs directive when it comes to the use of lead solder, and they probably use up more lead in a few seconds than we all combined use in our lifetimes
Quote from: Johan on December 03, 2011, 12:15:19 PM
the poisonous lead emitting from the DIY community into nature is minimal at worst.
I was more concerned about emitting Pb into myself than into nature, but I guess it's not a important amount.
Should I wear some mask while working with eutectic solder?
Thanks everyone for your help! I guess that after using Ag solder for about 10 circuits working with traditional solder will feel really easy.
I shouldn't have listened to the audiophile community and their "better conductivity" chit-chat. It was indeed a pain in the arse...
Quote from: Jorge_S on December 03, 2011, 01:53:28 PM
I was more concerned about emitting Pb into myself than into nature, but I guess it's not a important amount.
Should I wear some mask while working with eutectic solder?
I usually exhale when applying the lead, blowing the fumes away from myself
You two seriously thought those were Pb fumes ? Pb doesn't boil at those temperatures you know .
Quote from: DavenPaget on December 03, 2011, 03:44:31 PM
You two seriously thought those were Pb fumes ? Pb doesn't boil at those temperatures you know .
It's the rosin fumes I dont want to inhale.
J
Quote from: Johan on December 03, 2011, 03:52:59 PM
Quote from: DavenPaget on December 03, 2011, 03:44:31 PM
You two seriously thought those were Pb fumes ? Pb doesn't boil at those temperatures you know .
It's the rosin fumes I dont want to inhale.
J
That's not toxic and i like it :icon_mrgreen:
But anyway i still made a extraction system for the stormy days :icon_mrgreen:
From the datasheets I've read, rosin seems to be a mild irritant. You'd probably need a lot to cause permanent damage, but it's still worth avoiding.
Quote from: CynicalMan on December 03, 2011, 04:01:12 PM
From the datasheets I've read, rosin seems to be a mild irritant. You'd probably need a lot to cause permanent damage, but it's still worth avoiding.
Pretty much agree . Seems to cause headaches and giddyness for me . The smell of it in the morning is nice ... but the after effects ? Don't want to be giddy the whole day . :icon_mrgreen:
Lead-free solder. Nice idea, but it seems to be yet another poorly implemented "green technology." It's almost as if it is intentionally made poorly, so that we'll forget about about all this "green nonsense" and go back to the bad old ways. Reminds me of the asbestos-free brake pads that they've installed on all the subways here. Now they screech like banshees-from-hell when they come rolling into the subway stations.
Yeah, I've had a terrible time trying to use the lead-free solders I've tried. Ruined a few boards with them. Stick with the standard 63/37 if you can.
Just use a small desk fan, pointed away from your work, to suck away the fumes.
Lead free solder fumes are worse .
Guys , stop thinking 63/37 has lead boiling .
If it was , we would be literally quite dead .
Quote from: DavenPaget on December 03, 2011, 04:10:34 PM
Quote from: CynicalMan on December 03, 2011, 04:01:12 PM
From the datasheets I've read, rosin seems to be a mild irritant. You'd probably need a lot to cause permanent damage, but it's still worth avoiding.
Pretty much agree . Seems to cause headaches and giddyness for me . The smell of it in the morning is nice ... but the after effects ? Don't want to be giddy the whole day . :icon_mrgreen:
they're a LOT better today than what they used to be. if you read the back label of a roll of multi core in the mid 90's, you'd read about birth defects and genetical mutations..nasty stuff....and old habits, you know...
My 2 cents:
As mentioned above, the boiling point of lead is 1740 degrees C (3163 degrees F), so lead inhalation is not a hazard at soldering temperatures. Lead has nasty effects in the body, however. Because lead is so soft, it transfers easily to your hands while working with it. I always wash my hands after a soldering session - and try to remember not to stick my fingers in my mouth when they are covered with lead.
About the rosin... you can get solder with rosin core, and with other stuff in the core (so-called "no clean", and other organic and inorganic stuff). I like real rosin core myself. It works and I like the smell of it. Turns out, it's not a coincidence that it smells good. Rosin is just another name for Pine Resin - the natural sticky stuff from pine trees. It's the same stuff used to "rosin up the bow" of stringed instruments. It's also called colophony, and you can buy it for use as incense. Mixed with a proper binder for even burning you can have that wonderful soldering smell any time. So I think the health risks are minimal - as long you aren't actually smoking the stuff.
This fall, I collected a bunch a pine cones for dipping in wax to use as fire starters. They were covered in resin (rosin), so I soaked them in alcohol to dissolve it. Then I ran it through some coffee filters to clean it. After evaporating most of the alcohol, I was left with about 8 oz. of pure DIY rosin. I have some desoldering braid that is not impregnated with rosin (it doesn't work too well that way), so I dipped it in my DIY rosin. Now it works great, and smells great too.
BTW - if you are thinking about doing the DIY rosin thing - it's a pain in the butt. Much easier to just buy colophony on Ebay where you can get it in pebble or powder form for about $12.00/lb.
Quote from: DavenPaget on December 03, 2011, 03:44:31 PM
You two seriously thought those were Pb fumes ? Pb doesn't boil at those temperatures you know .
You don't need boiling temperatures for evaporation. We all know water, oils, and all liquids evaporate at different ratio without being boiled. The higher the temperature of the liquid the faster the evaporation.
Lead has a history of being toxic in it's solid state just by being in contact with water (ask the Romans), toothpaste, food, etc.
Probably the amount in solder is very small, and I'll build a small extract using PC fans for dissipation of solder fumes, but that doesn't mean it's toxicity is null because it's not boiling.
The thing is , our temperatures are WAY below the boiling temperatures .
Who solders using water anyway .
Evaporation can happen WAY below the boiling point.
> silver gives better conductivity.
The copper wire is several inches long. The solder joint should be TIGHT, with a minimum of solder between wire and lug/pad. Also most electronic wires (and their joints) are sized for mechanical strength, not for conductivity. We could use hair-fine wires and be fine electrically; but they break on the bench and on the road.
Lead is not a great conductor, but not that bad, and should be a VERY SMALL part of the total path.
Yes, lead is terrible in your brain. Don't handle lead then eat. Imagine un-clogging a toilet: your hands may look clean but you will be sure to wash-up WELL before your hand gets anywhere near your nose mouth eyes.
Lead fumes do happen at soldering temp but in very small quantity, and in DIY we don't have hot lead under our nose more than a few seconds a minute. Hand-soldering with Pb solders is still legal (special-case where Pb is restricted) and industrial workers sling a lot more lead than we do.
> rosin seems to be a mild irritant. You'd probably need a lot to cause permanent damage
That's it for most people. A few people develop a sensitivity after some exposure, and just can NOT be near the stuff. If rosin smoke gets in your eyes and you tear-up, don't get smoke in your eyes. If after a while (with some reasonable ventilation) you are wheezing and your skin breaks out, every time, stop soldering with rosin. (I know one guy who does, because he "must", wearing gas-mask and gloves.)
desoldering lead free solder is the worst.
the absolute worst.
that being said 62/36/2 until it goes the way of the dodo.
Quote from: diagrammatiks on December 04, 2011, 09:23:09 AM
desoldering lead free solder is the worst.
the absolute worst.
that being said 62/36/2 until it goes the way of the dodo.
+1 on that , it stinks :icon_neutral:
Quote from: diagrammatiks on December 04, 2011, 09:23:09 AM
that being said 62/36/2 until it goes the way of the dodo.
Sorry if the question sounds st001d, but that last "2" in 62/36/2 refers to what element? copper? silver?
Will this combination "be better" than traditional eutectic 63/37?
Sliver . Who knows ?
Quote from: Jorge_S on December 04, 2011, 12:09:24 PM
Sorry if the question sounds st001d, but that last "2" in 62/36/2 refers to what element? copper? silver?
Will this combination "be better" than traditional eutectic 63/37?
Silver.
It offers some really huge advantages.
... to advertisers. :icon_lol: It just sounds so cool to say "silver-bearing solder" or "precious-metal solder". I've even seen it referred to as "silver solder", which it assuredly is not. Real silver solder is another animal entirely, and is mostly silver, plus some toxic cadmium and other stuff. But we've all been exposed to the oral tradition of William Jefferson Clinton and his immortal "it all depends on what your definition of 'is' is."
Adding silver to solders does have some effects on the solder's performance as an electrical conductor and as a glue, but the changes it causes in things like the audio produced by flowing signal through it are so microscopic that it's silly to say that it makes a change.
If you think about it, saying that silver-bearing solder makes an audible difference, or saying "oxygen-free copper wire" makes an audible difference is the same as saying "I can do metallurgical analysis just by listening to audio frequency electrical signals sent through the metal". It starts to sound a lot sillier when put that way.
Quote from: R.G. on December 04, 2011, 12:51:47 PM
Quote from: Jorge_S on December 04, 2011, 12:09:24 PM
Sorry if the question sounds st001d, but that last "2" in 62/36/2 refers to what element? copper? silver?
Will this combination "be better" than traditional eutectic 63/37?
Silver.
It offers some really huge advantages.
... to advertisers. :icon_lol: It just sounds so cool to say "silver-bearing solder" or "precious-metal solder". I've even seen it referred to as "silver solder", which it assuredly is not. Real silver solder is another animal entirely, and is mostly silver, plus some toxic cadmium and other stuff. But we've all been exposed to the oral tradition of William Jefferson Clinton and his immortal "it all depends on what your definition of 'is' is."
Adding silver to solders does have some effects on the solder's performance as an electrical conductor and as a glue, but the changes it causes in things like the audio produced by flowing signal through it are so microscopic that it's silly to say that it makes a change.
If you think about it, saying that silver-bearing solder makes an audible difference, or saying "oxygen-free copper wire" makes an audible difference is the same as saying "I can do metallurgical analysis just by listening to audio frequency electrical signals sent through the metal". It starts to sound a lot sillier when put that way.
hi RG. I do not like the silver leaching from my terminal posts, tinned wire, and component leads.
saying that the only things worth using are those with an audible effect is really a race to the bottom.
62/36/2 has a different melting point and flow characteristics. It was not and is not more expensive then 63/37.
Quote from: diagrammatiks on December 04, 2011, 02:59:08 PM
I do not like the silver leaching from my terminal posts, tinned wire, and component leads.
That is a good and valid concern. But it's never what gets mentioned in the advertising for "silver solder".
Quotesaying that the only things worth using are those with an audible effect is really a race to the bottom.
Could be. But that's not what I said. I just object to saying that things which are not audible are. There are many reasons to use alternate materials, including:
Quote62/36/2 has a different melting point and flow characteristics. It was not and is not more expensive then 63/37.
this one. Silver content does have an effect. 62/36/2 melts at 179C instead of 183-190C for 60/40 and 183 for 63/37, so you get a 4C lower melting point. Here's what I found about it:
QuoteSn62. Common in electronics. The strongest tin-lead solder. Appearance identical to Sn60Pb40 or Sn63Pb37. Crystals of Ag3Sn may be seen growing from the solder. Extended heat treatment leads to formation of crystals of binary alloys. Silver content decreases solubility of silver, making the alloy suitable for soldering silver-metallized surfaces, e.g. SMD capacitors and other silver-metallized ceramics. Not recommended for gold. General-purpose.
Melts 4 degrees sooner, stronger when solidified, doesn't leach silver out. If it works well for you, use it.
It's actually I think preferred for teflon wire since the pretinning process is different.
the teflon outer means that the wire has to be plated with a silver/lead/tin mixture.
using a bit of silver in the solder helps to maintain the strength of the joint better.
although I suppose its just silver/tin now.
Yeah but for the amount of lead we are talking about it would take literally years of cumulative exposure to generate any issues. It's nothing like kids eating lead paint. Just wash your hands and don't worry about it.
Just a quick anecdote...
I worked for 6 years for a manufacturer that made sub-assemblies for military contractors. Lots of soldering components together, solder-coated steel enclosures which were seam-soldered for hermetic seals, tinning inductor leads using inductive-heat melting pots...all using 63/37 or 60/40. There were 50+ women there working various positions in the plant that soldered all day long, 40+ hours a week. Many of those women had been with the company for 20+ years, some 30+....guess how many had health issues that could be attributed to lead-poisoning. Birth defects, cancer, insanity? Nothing...nada...zilch. In fact, EPA and OSHA were way more concerned about the cleaning agents used than any lead contamination.
Use 63/37 or 60/40...use a small fan...wash your hands....don't chew it like gum...quit worrying.
Quote from: Zipslack on December 04, 2011, 07:08:37 PM
...don't chew it like gum...
You're going to love this one. We had a lab tech back at my first career that did exactly this. He'd chew solder. Truly bizarre. Those of us who worried about contamination issues were horrified. He laughed at us.
Of course, he was strange in other ways, too. The chewing solder was a relatively mild part of his oddities.
:icon_eek:
Back when this particular big company was first being pursued by OSHA and the EPA as an obvious target, we had to sit through repetitive lectures on materials safety. But a little research on the literature in the technical library (remember libraries? that was before the internet was the fount of all knowledge :icon_lol: ) I found that most of the research on industrial contamination was either for incredulously toxic stuff or wasn't much of an issue. Lab measurements of contamination on unwashed hands showed relatively minimal amounts of contaminants unless you were actually trying to eat the stuff off your hands. Simple hand washing was an effective defense. The nasty stuff was materials that were actually skin penetrants or mixed with penetrants like DMSO.
Use common sense: don't chew (well, and/or swallow) solder, wash your hands afterwards.
Quote from: R.G. on December 04, 2011, 03:12:42 PM
62/36/2 melts at 179C instead of 183-190C for 60/40 and 183 for 63/37, so you get a 4C lower melting point.
(...)
Melts 4 degrees sooner, stronger when solidified, doesn't leach silver out. If it works well for you, use it.
So far we got:
- Lead free Sn + Ag is hard to work with, and doesn't have any audible differences.
- 63/37 works fine, sounds fine, and experience says almost null intoxication risks with basic care (washing hands, not eating it, etc).
- 62/36/2 has 4C less melting temperature and more mechanical resistance. It's more expensive @ebay vs. regular eutectic solder.
So it's basically narrowed to two options, regular eutectic and 62Sn/36Pb/2Ag. Any of this will work fine for diy stompboxes/audio applications.
R.G.:
What do you regularly use nowadays for stompboxes? I'll appreciate if you can also tell us the gauge.
Sorry for all the questions but with your huge experience I can't go wrong using the same solder type :-)
is 63/37 cheaper?
lead solder prices seem to be all over the place on ebay.
kester 44 .20 63/37 is anywhere from 30 to 60 dollars a pound.
Quote from: diagrammatiks on December 05, 2011, 01:46:58 AM
is 63/37 cheaper?
lead solder prices seem to be all over the place on ebay.
kester 44 .20 63/37 is anywhere from 30 to 60 dollars a pound.
1lb Gardener brand (Chicago based company) eutectic solder goes for $6 + Shipping. I've seen Kester eutectic 1lb going for $21, Japanese brands go for $12 and Chinese brand for as low as $5.
62/36/2 in Qualitek brand goes for $52 + shipping.
Quote from: diagrammatiks on December 05, 2011, 01:46:58 AM
is 63/37 cheaper?
lead solder prices seem to be all over the place on ebay.
kester 44 .20 63/37 is anywhere from 30 to 60 dollars a pound.
.020 ? :icon_eek:
.020 in = .051 mm
I've used pretty much all types of solder over the years from standard tin/lead to lead free to low temp indium. For the most part, the 63/37 tin lead will do all that you want, but I like the additional hardness and strength of the lead free for certain applications, e.g. I see jack subassemblies built with tin/lead solder fail regularly from repeated insertion/removal. These type of solder joints will last longer with lead free. If the higher solder temps and the possible tin whisker growth of lead free are not issues, then it has value in certain applications.
Quote from: Jorge_S on December 05, 2011, 02:32:14 AM
Quote from: diagrammatiks on December 05, 2011, 01:46:58 AM
is 63/37 cheaper?
lead solder prices seem to be all over the place on ebay.
kester 44 .20 63/37 is anywhere from 30 to 60 dollars a pound.
1lb Gardener brand (Chicago based company) eutectic solder goes for $6 + Shipping. I've seen Kester eutectic 1lb going for $21, Japanese brands go for $12 and Chinese brand for as low as $5.
62/36/2 in Qualitek brand goes for $52 + shipping.
ahh your right. I was only looking at the kester stuff.
62/36/2 seems to be at about 50 for 1 band all over right now.
It didn't use to be that way. At least at radio shack it's still the same price. ;)