More and more parts are becoming obsolete in DIP packages. Few things are impossible to find but many projects are held up by those who fear surface mount soldering.
I was thinking I'd do a PCB project to help folks get comfortable with SMT soldering. It would be something simple, like an opamp overdrive. I want to encourage as many as possible to lose their fear of SMT so I'll be making the following available, for each kind of DIYer:
- Home-etchable PCB artwork so you don't have to spend a dime if you don't want to
- A professionally manufactured PCB
- A kit with all the SMT parts so you don't have to worry about sourcing each individual resistor, etc.
Let me know if something like this appeals to you.
I'd definitely be interested in a little baggy full of itty-bitty SMD components to experiment with as you describe. I'm happy enough to do the photo-exposure/etch/mask piece myself as my processes are getting better all the time - it's just the embuggerance of sourcing 2 or 3 of this, 1 of those, etc, when companies deal in minimum lots of 100 or so.
I think this is a great idea. SMT isn't really that scary. I understand why it isn't as practical for some DIY things, but I think that we could be using it to our advantage more around here because there are some really good reasons to use SMT (other than the fact that through hole parts are becoming obselete)
I do micro assembly under a microscope all day. I'm totally down with helping answer people's questions.
I'm up for it.
Not meant as any sort of criticism, but what happened to SIPs? It seems like we never saw any layouts for SIP chips.
I'm game. What size are you thinking? That is really the only thing that has kept me from going to SMT. Too small of packages become a pain to work with and you can just fudge leads around like you can with through hole parts. I can cram the wrong size through hole caps in a smaller footprint, but doing the same with SMT isn't as feasible.
I don't think that it would be too easy to span traces with a SMT resistor or capacitor.
Definitely have to change layout style. I think that the trace size would have to be reduced as well which could lead to problems in the DIY toner PCB realm.
Do I sound negative? I tried one SMT project.....I failed miserably! But!...... I like the idea of making builds as small as possible so I'm willing to give it another couple hundred trys until I get the hang of it!
Here's a pretty good DIY tutorial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NN7UGWYmBY
Quote from: Taylor on December 05, 2012, 12:37:07 PM
More and more parts are becoming obsolete in DIP packages. Few things are impossible to find but many projects are held up by those who fear surface mount soldering.
I was thinking I'd do a PCB project to help folks get comfortable with SMT soldering. It would be something simple, like an opamp overdrive. I want to encourage as many as possible to lose their fear of SMT so I'll be making the following available, for each kind of DIYer:
- Home-etchable PCB artwork so you don't have to spend a dime if you don't want to
- A professionally manufactured PCB
- A kit with all the SMT parts so you don't have to worry about sourcing each individual resistor, etc.
Let me know if something like this appeals to you.
Sounds cool. I prefer big ass parts because I have sausages for fingers but it would be a good skill to have.
I'm definitely interested in giving this a shot! I was going to try it on my own---a kit would be so helpful.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on December 05, 2012, 03:46:07 PM
I'm up for it.
Not meant as any sort of criticism, but what happened to SIPs? It seems like we never saw any layouts for SIP chips.
For me the purpose of this is not so much cramming stuff into smaller spaces, although that's nice too. I just see too many people turned off by certain projects or ICs because they require SMT soldering. I just want people to see that it really is not difficult to solder the larger SMT packages like SOIC. There is a lot of new technology coming out right now that's only available in SMT packages and I want to do my tiny part to help the DIY pedal community get over this hurdle and not be left in the dust as tech marches on.
Quote from: armdnrdy on December 05, 2012, 04:10:49 PM
Definitely have to change layout style. I think that the trace size would have to be reduced as well which could lead to problems in the DIY toner PCB realm.
No problem there - I've done plenty of design work for SMT and I've seen a number of people etch boards for tiny lead pitches. It won't be quite as easy to etch this board as a standard one; that's why I'd offer a pro board already made. But for those folks who want to give it a go and don't want to buy a board, the option will be there.
That's a noble and marvellous idea, Taylor. I am very much your target demographic, especially if you can incorporate shaky hand steadying and duff eyesight enhancing. Cheers, looking forward to it.
This sounds like a good idea, is it Tayda or Futurlec that sells SMT components in singles, perhaps both. I think I bought some resistors or caps once as I had an idea those would be useful on a project, never used them though.
Great idea Taylor.
For people that never soldered SMT before, get the PCB! SMT on pro fabricated PCB with solder mask, almost solders itself.
I'm brave enough to etch my own and try that.
I have a project in the works with a 32 pin atmega smt, smt transistors on resistors, all on a home etched board. Wish me luck!
PS. I don't know how much fun it is to solder SMT with a RatShack iron?
Quote from: Taylor on December 05, 2012, 04:32:45 PM
Quote from: Mark Hammer on December 05, 2012, 03:46:07 PM
I'm up for it.
Not meant as any sort of criticism, but what happened to SIPs? It seems like we never saw any layouts for SIP chips.
For me the purpose of this is not so much cramming stuff into smaller spaces, although that's nice too. I just see too many people turned off by certain projects or ICs because they require SMT soldering. I just want people to see that it really is not difficult to solder the larger SMT packages like SOIC. There is a lot of new technology coming out right now that's only available in SMT packages and I want to do my tiny part to help the DIY pedal community get over this hurdle and not be left in the dust as tech marches on.
And I think that is an excellent idea.
I posted somethng earlier in the summer about repairing a buddy's Variax, temporarily losing a teeny-tiny resistor on the bench, and the struggle to put the resistor back on the board once we miraculously found it again. Working with SMT chips and thru-hole passive components is one thing. Working with
all SMT parts quite another! :icon_lol:
I have a hot air rework station on my Amazon wishlist. I've done some SMT work with my soldering iron, but now I'm jonesin' for a project so this is perfect. Thank you, Taylor!
I've dabbled in SMT repairs and mods, and I've got the parts to build a 95% SMT Noisy Cricket. I'd definitely like to do more. :)
This is something that's been on my mind lately. I was actually searching this very forum only a few days ago on this very subject. I was actually wondering if some of the ROG projects couldn't be adapted to SMT. Things like the Supreaux and the English Channel and things like that.
Aren't there a number of different FETs that are available as SMDs? Actually, aren't some of the "full-size" FETs being discontinued? This is sort of what got me interested in learning this stuff to begin with.
Anyways, I'm definitely interested. I recently picked up an Artec distortion unit that's all SMT. It has 5 different settings and mounts inside your guitar. Really tiny board. I got it to put inside the next bass that I build for my girlfriend. (She does a solo act and uses a lot of distortion) SMT is the way things are headed, looks like.
The problems with DIY SMT are actually two: making a board and soldering. About the board, I think that the way to go is NOT toner transfers, but photo sensitive boards. I´ve never made one with that technology, always toner transfer.
Anyone that made SMT boards with photo sensitive boards can comment on this? Feasible or not?
Quote from: Morocotopo on December 07, 2012, 12:17:57 PM
The problems with DIY SMT are actually two: making a board and soldering. About the board, I think that the way to go is NOT toner transfers, but photo sensitive boards. I´ve never made one with that technology, always toner transfer.
Anyone that made SMT boards with photo sensitive boards can comment on this? Feasible or not?
I make SMD boards with photo sensitive boards not much of a challenge there ...same with soldering (to solder SMD resistors resistors...tack one side to its pad with solder, then the other side/pad ..... to solder ICs ...get the IC in place, tack pin 1 with solder, now go to the diagonally opposite corner...align it & tack that with solder...then solder all the pins). Good lighting a a magnifier help heaps, I use something like this....http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-Diopter-Illuminated-Magnifying-Lamp-8609-Twin-Tubes-/330812017773?pt=UK_Home_Garden_Lamps&hash=item4d05eecc6d&_uhb=1
As long as you don't go stupid small & stick with say 1206 size components & SOIC, then IMHO SMD is no harder than through hole (easier in my opinion as you don't have to drill holes).
Less drilling is a really nice side effect ;D
Tayda doesn't have 1206 resistors, just 0805 which seems just a little too small. Lets all ask for them to carry 1206 resistors and caps :)
They arent so bad! (as long as you have tweezers and a microscope ;D). But seriously, the 0805 that tayda carry are pretty easy to work with.
I've been dabbling in this recently for the same reasons you have posted here. Its obvious the components are going to change over and once you get into it, its actually pretty fun. I have a few easy layouts if anyone wants me to upload them. And I'd be happy to take a request or two to get some more practice in!
Quote from: tyronethebig on December 07, 2012, 06:08:22 PM
They arent so bad! (as long as you have tweezers and a microscope ;D). But seriously, the 0805 that tayda carry are pretty easy to work with.
I ordered 0805 (having worked with 1206 for a good while)...I opened the package...laughed, put them back in the envelope & have never re-visited... I reckon most people would have the same reaction (in fact, probably more of a reaction...if they've not even worked with SMD at all prior). to go from thru-hole to 0805, well, I'm laughing as I type (seriously). Re Tayda not carrying, plenty of sellers do...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SMD-1206-50-Value-Resistor-Kit-40-ones-of-each-value-/370597064433?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56494e6ef1
(another 'win' of SMD, you go from a big (often costly) unit with storage drawers hanging on the wall to this... http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-SMT-SMD-Kit-Laboratory-Components-Storage-Box-Freeshipping-NEW-/121034691985?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2e3ad591 ....about 12" wide!)
Somewhere there's a video of a guy handling SMD components with a small ball of "Sticky Tack" (Blu-Tac) on the end of a pencil and it seems to work really well for placing the components and holding them while you solder the first side.
I'd be interested in buying a little kit. Great idea Taylor.
I'd be interested in a kit. I've done a few things using SOIC parts soldered to adaptors with through hole and vero for everything else, so it would be nice to get a feel for whether I could go completely SMD.
interestingly... as result of researching considered responses for the recent DMM thread, I ran across these "SMT to DIP adapter" boards:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/221022301871
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/320905382834
...and I'd lay odds that there is lots more stuff out there that will allow 0.1" protoboard users to play in the SMT-only-device realm...
david
Those 28 pin adaptors are the exact ones I've been using. The smaller ones look pretty useful.
I built the pearl Octaver with smd IC's not long ago! Was a lot of fun and my first time trying smd components. I was going to use it for the turkey day contest but there was no smd allowed for that , but that's ok things worked out :D
Ever since I built that Pearl OC7 I have been thinking about trying to make some new layouts with the smd IC's .
I found it was easy to use some flux paste on the end of a cut resistor lead and sort of brush it on the smd pads and then just stick the IC to it and hold it lightly down with some tweezers (zircon encrusted) and then wipe down away from the IC with the soldering tip that has a bit of solder on it but not to much. Once I got used to it I could do the fast swipe across all the legs of the IC and get them all in a row no bridged connections was pretty cool!
I'm not sure I'm ready for smd resistor and caps and transistors like those 0805's . But Id like to do some layouts for some projects maybe fit some stuff into 1590a's!
The 1590A feasible projects list gets a lot longer with smd ;D
Quote from: Perrow on December 08, 2012, 10:04:44 AM
The 1590A feasible projects list gets a lot longer with smd ;D
Yeah, I like doing SMT layouts for 1590A (I actually just posted one in the 1590A thread).
I actually posed the same question on BYOC about SMT boards as I've had a handful of SMT boards made. Some folks asked for kits too, but I really am leaning towards just releasing a mouser BOM with all the part numbers. They will bag and label a single resistor and still only charge 6 cents for it, which is fantastic. I still may do a kit option for those that feel they really need it, but it makes a lot more sense to just do a Mouser order, IMHO.
Quote from: pickdropper on December 08, 2012, 11:30:49 AM
Quote from: Perrow on December 08, 2012, 10:04:44 AM
The 1590A feasible projects list gets a lot longer with smd ;D
Yeah, I like doing SMT layouts for 1590A (I actually just posted one in the 1590A thread).
I actually posed the same question on BYOC about SMT boards as I've had a handful of SMT boards made. Some folks asked for kits too, but I really am leaning towards just releasing a mouser BOM with all the part numbers. They will bag and label a single resistor and still only charge 6 cents for it, which is fantastic. I still may do a kit option for those that feel they really need it, but it makes a lot more sense to just do a Mouser order, IMHO.
I sort of agree, but it's my understanding that most people outside the US don't like Mouser because the shipping is disproportionately high.
Quote from: Taylor on December 08, 2012, 12:20:51 PM
Quote from: pickdropper on December 08, 2012, 11:30:49 AM
Quote from: Perrow on December 08, 2012, 10:04:44 AM
The 1590A feasible projects list gets a lot longer with smd ;D
Yeah, I like doing SMT layouts for 1590A (I actually just posted one in the 1590A thread).
I actually posed the same question on BYOC about SMT boards as I've had a handful of SMT boards made. Some folks asked for kits too, but I really am leaning towards just releasing a mouser BOM with all the part numbers. They will bag and label a single resistor and still only charge 6 cents for it, which is fantastic. I still may do a kit option for those that feel they really need it, but it makes a lot more sense to just do a Mouser order, IMHO.
I sort of agree, but it's my understanding that most people outside the US don't like Mouser because the shipping is disproportionately high.
I didn't realize that Mouser gouged for shipping outside of the U.S. I guess I would've expected better than that from them. In that case, I can certainly see the benefits of a kit.
The problem with Mouser is they're just not interested in small orders from the likes of us, so for the UK they charge a flat fee of £12/$20 for shipping making small value orders impractical, for bigger orders they're probably Ok as I think they do free shipping. The thing that annoys me is they have what appear to be UK and other European based sites, but all they do is give you the prices in your own currency, they still charge you international delivery.
I think, certainly with Taylor's goals in mind, the option of a kit is the way to go, make it as simple as possible for people to dip their toe in the SMT water.
Has anyone found or used a reasonably priced vero-style board for SMD? If Small Bear starts handling SMDs it would be great to be able to get "proto boards" at the same place. :)
Quote from: slacker on December 08, 2012, 12:42:23 PM
The problem with Mouser is they're just not interested in small orders from the likes of us, so for the UK they charge a flat fee of £12/$20 for shipping making small value orders impractical, for bigger orders they're probably Ok as I think they do free shipping. The thing that annoys me is they have what appear to be UK and other European based sites, but all they do is give you the prices in your own currency, they still charge you international delivery.
I think, certainly with Taylor's goals in mind, the option of a kit is the way to go, make it as simple as possible for people to dip their toe in the SMT water.
Given that info, I can certainly see the draw of a kit.
The other option would be to do a BOM for a place like Farnell, assuming they carry the same lines (not necessarily a given).
Quotemake it as simple as possible for people to dip their toe in the SMT water.
booya
A topic that accounts for a large number of threads on this forum is what to buy and where to buy it. Ordering from Mouser et al. can be a royal PITA if you're not sure of yourself. Being a super-newb, it was a tedious, expensive, error-filled journey to get to the point where I can buy with confidence. I dread revisiting that even to a small degree in SMD world. I'm willing to pay more for a basic kit - Taylor's idea of a op amp overdrive is perfect - to have a reference point for buying parts in the future.
Quote from: garcho on December 08, 2012, 02:20:01 PM
Quotemake it as simple as possible for people to dip their toe in the SMT water.
booya
A topic that accounts for a large number of threads on this forum is what to buy and where to buy it. Ordering from Mouser et al. can be a royal PITA if you're not sure of yourself. Being a super-newb, it was a tedious, expensive, error-filled journey to get to the point where I can buy with confidence. I dread revisiting that even to a small degree in SMD world. I'm willing to pay more for a basic kit - Taylor's idea of a op amp overdrive is perfect - to have a reference point for buying parts in the future.
If I keep responding in a pro-Mouser way, people are going to think I believe Taylor's idea is a bad one or that I am against kits. That's not the case at all (on either count).
But submitting a preformed BOM to Mouser is WAY simpler than picking out the components. You upload the spreadsheet to their website and then order the full project. The user doesn't have to select any components as the correct part numbers are already there.
Not saying that it is the best way to go, but I am trying to demystify it a bit.
thanks for the tip :icon_idea:
Bump this mutha...
Any word on if this is gonna happen Taylor?
Ah, just seen this. Although
Quoteshaky hand steadying and duff eyesight enhancing
is also my new style as of the last 6 months!
I'm in.
Now the question is what to do with all those (1000's) of through hole components I bought.
I guess I'll stockpile and my grandchildren can make a killing selling them as NOS.
I do still want to do it but I've got some other projects that are taking priority right now.
Quote from: slacker on December 08, 2012, 12:42:23 PM
The problem with Mouser is they're just not interested in small orders from the likes of us, so for the UK they charge a flat fee of £12/$20 for shipping making small value orders impractical, for bigger orders they're probably Ok as I think they do free shipping. The thing that annoys me is they have what appear to be UK and other European based sites, but all they do is give you the prices in your own currency, they still charge you international delivery.
I think, certainly with Taylor's goals in mind, the option of a kit is the way to go, make it as simple as possible for people to dip their toe in the SMT water.
so what your saying is that you are shocked that mouser has 80 languages available but does not operate 80 separate businesses?
Quote from: pickdropper on December 08, 2012, 02:26:57 PM
But submitting a preformed BOM to Mouser is WAY simpler than picking out the components. You upload the spreadsheet to their website and then order the full project. The user doesn't have to select any components as the correct part numbers are already there.
Not saying that it is the best way to go, but I am trying to demystify it a bit.
it gets even easier than that. you can build a BOM on mouser and share it as a link. when someone clicks the link, the parts are all added to the cart. this is one click DIY parts ordering. add up the time someone would spend at farnell even if they did have part numbers on a piece of paper. is saving $10 worth an hour of your time? most people will say yes. If I was selling kits, I would charge more than $5 to stuff all those envelopes and label them.
Quote from: slacker on December 08, 2012, 12:42:23 PM
The problem with Mouser is they're just not interested in small orders from the likes of us, so for the UK they charge a flat fee of £12/$20 for shipping making small value orders impractical,
(1) I do not think this statement is correct as stated, nor logically consistent.
- We do not know what Mouser is interested in without further proof. I find that they're fast and very efficient at shipping orders, and are interested in selling even one of something to me, and have been since their catalog was less than 10mm thick. My impression is that Mouser is eager to sell to anyone, in any quantity that allows them to do good business. They have been that way for a couple of decades.
- It is certain that it costs more to ship internationally in small quantities. They are a business, and so they will not effectively give you money by selling below their total cost, including shipping and the cost of the paperwork.
- Your statement implies that they're trying to discourage you from buying. If you feel that way, don't buy from them. It makes both you and them happy. Would it feel better if you could see the parts on line, but when you wanted to buy, they simply said "we don't ship to you at all because it would cost too much and we respect you too much to charge you what it would cost us to do it."?
It ain't personal. If you don't like their prices, buy elsewhere. The reason Mouser gets mentioned so often is based on the fact that they are fast, cost-effective, and efficient for many buyers. There may be exceptions.
Quotefor bigger orders they're probably Ok as I think they do free shipping.
"Free shipping" means "We've hidden the cost of shipping inside the cost of goods".
QuoteThe thing that annoys me is they have what appear to be UK and other European based sites,
There is no real link between where an internet site appears to be and where the goods are shipped from. As we have all learned, appearances on the internet are at best worthless, and at worst malicious.
Quotebut all they do is give you the prices in your own currency, they still charge you international delivery.
Giving you prices in your own currency is probably them trying to be polite and helpful, telling you what it costs in your local currency, which is something you'd otherwise have to do for yourself, with an online currency converter, yes? If they gave you prices in only US$, you (or certainly a lot of someones) would be offended that they did not respect your national origin enough to quote prices in your local currency, right? If they gave you prices only in some other currency, from halfway around the globe, they'd appear to be obstructive, yes? If the gave you prices in - oh, heck, let's just say yen - the very next thing you'd do after getting the price in yen is to convert that to your local currency to find out how much it really costs, yes? So why isn't it good for them to just tell you what the tab is in currency you have?
And as we all know, the price delivered in our country is always going to have shipping charges added. Even if we buy in the grocery store down the block, *they* have paid shipping, and are going to add it onto the price you pay. If Mouser does not have local warehouses filled up with stock from the original manufacturer, set up right in your country, they're going to have to charge you international shipping to get it to you. I'm guessing that this is the case.
My impression is that Mouser is very eager to make it easy and effective to buy stuff there. If they thought they could sell more and make more money by having a local warehouse and not charging you international shipping (other than that bringing the big boxes to the warehouse), they'd probably do it. So the way to get this to stop happening is to order more from them, until they have enough volume to set up that local warehouse. Right?
btw - may have already been mentioned but, you can buy resistor/capacitor kits on ebay with almost every value... If somebody could create/build a checkout list to the same on mouser/digi-key/jameco etc even better! Then you could click on the link and all of the different value resistors/caps would be in your cart and you could choose what you want and the quantity or, you could choose them all and the quantity and have a complete stock of SMT parts. all 1206 would be good! This could be done with IC's as well..
Also you can get plated through-hole proto board which is perfect for surface mount! With that you wouldn't have to worry about spanning traces and you could design double sided with the option of using through-hole components as well...
For example: You could get without the switch as well
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Guitar-Effects-Pedal-Design-Kit-1546-/390455327661?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item5ae8f37bad
Check this out
http://vakits.com/
Another alternative is to get 0805 parts and SOIC chips from Tayda. $1.00 for 100 of one value of resistor or capacitor. 18c to 50c each for dual opamps.
I recently put some 0805 resistors on a through-hole pcb with 0.1" spacing for vertical mount resistors. It worked fine, even though I've never done it before. It really is true, that thinking about it is more difficult than doing it. I used a standard soldering iron and standard 0.7mm (0.28") solder.
One trick I discovered is to use "helping hands" (http://www.eclipsetools.com/ProductPics/Latest%20.jpegs/900-015.JPG) to put a little bit of weight on the component to hold it there while soldering, just using the tip of one of the crocodile clips to bear down on an IC or resistor. This made it easy to do the first solder joint on a resistor, or the corner legs of an IC.
Quote from: tyronethebig on December 07, 2012, 06:08:22 PM
They arent so bad! (as long as you have tweezers and a microscope ;D). But seriously, the 0805 that tayda carry are pretty easy to work with.
I've been dabbling in this recently for the same reasons you have posted here. Its obvious the components are going to change over and once you get into it, its actually pretty fun. I have a few easy layouts if anyone wants me to upload them. And I'd be happy to take a request or two to get some more practice in!
Given that Taylor is tied down at the moment with some high priority projects, I have some suggestions to get Taylor's idea moving forward:
1. Mike (tyronethebig), perhaps you could upload a couple of SMT layouts?
2. I wouldn't mind doing a layout and gerbers so someone else could get 2" x 2" pcb's made at Seeedstudio, total cost $14.00 for 10 pcb's, with 3 to 4 weeks turnaround time. I might need some pointers with layout since I am new to SMT. I would prefer someone else to get the pcb's made and send them out.
3. Recycle - I have a few "coaster" pcb's suitable for practising SMT. They have defects ranging from minor to major. I could send them out for $5 including shipping, one is a test phaser module without LFO (incomplete) including a dual power supply, it worked initially, then played up, and I haven't been back to revisit it yet. The other one is a negative earth parapedal with a couple minor errors including offset silkscreen, but works fine. They could be put to good use to learn a bit of SMT soldering, if nothing else.
All the vertical mount resistors could be done in 0805 SMD in this parapedal pcb (http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa160/birdy81260/DSCF1330_zpsd1b2d1aa.jpg), that was my intention but the resistors did not arrive in time.
Here's the phaser pcb. (http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa160/birdy81260/DSCF1334_zps60b03445.jpg) I put the SMT resistors and caps over 0.1" through-hole spacing on this one, could be neater, this was my first pcb with SMT resistors and caps.
ive been thinking of replaceing some throughhole resistors and caps on a few of more boards (clone stuff) with SMD to save some room. Looking at the size of 0805 compared to throughhole in DipTrace, the size difference is about half, but i reckon i could pull it off....Might have to give it a try next time i build some!
Paul
Quote from: J0K3RX on February 02, 2013, 07:58:30 PM
btw - may have already been mentioned but, you can buy resistor/capacitor kits on ebay with almost every value... If somebody could create/build a checkout list to the same on mouser/digi-key/jameco etc even better! Then you could click on the link and all of the different value resistors/caps would be in your cart and you could choose what you want and the quantity or, you could choose them all and the quantity and have a complete stock of SMT parts. all 1206 would be good! This could be done with IC's as well..
Also you can get plated through-hole proto board which is perfect for surface mount! With that you wouldn't have to worry about spanning traces and you could design double sided with the option of using through-hole components as well...
For example: You could get without the switch as well
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Guitar-Effects-Pedal-Design-Kit-1546-/390455327661?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item5ae8f37bad
Check this out
http://vakits.com/
thumbs up for vakits - nightfire electronics
used him/her with good results
Make your own hot air soldering gun: http://www.piclist.com/techref/hotairpencil20usd.htm
Simple solder paste + hot air example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O2UEGLJeAI
Some examples of hand-soldering ICs using traditional iron and wound solder: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uiroWBkdFY (check out the kapton tape example)
For me the hardest part of SMT is finding the right components.
For those not familiar with Electronic Goldmine, it's worth a look. If you want to learn to solder SMD parts, they stock a number of SMD kits. They're not simple overdrives, but they do the primary job of letting you work on the manual skills of soldering.
See:
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=C6719
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=C6736
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=C6736
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=C6725
Quote from: earthtonesaudio on February 03, 2013, 09:37:23 AM
Make your own hot air soldering gun: http://www.piclist.com/techref/hotairpencil20usd.htm
Simple solder paste + hot air example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O2UEGLJeAI
Some examples of hand-soldering ICs using traditional iron and wound solder: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uiroWBkdFY (check out the kapton tape example)
For me the hardest part of SMT is finding the right components.
Good links Earthtonesaudio. the 3rd link is pretty much how I do it, but for removal and repairs of high pin count IC's I tend to use a hot air iron and a feeler guage (used in car spark plug gap measurement) to slide under the chip to apply a little upward pressure while removing the IC.
I also find this pretty cheap tool worth it's weight in gold for SMT
http://www.pro-iroda.com/pro120.htm
Good ideas!
Seems like the hot air nozzles on these Weller Portasol butane soldering irons might work. You'd have to make sure the flame is low, otherwise you'd be cooking instead of soldering. :o
(http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q485/jdansti/DC7D4AE7-5DDF-4591-ACF0-6ECBFFF7F5DF-226-0000000DBEAE4DAE.jpg)
Nozzles and plastic cutter:
(http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q485/jdansti/F0C0760B-3BD4-4F0A-AA37-582864F1AB2A-226-0000000F62AE1429.jpg)
BTW- mine clogged up, and when I called Weller customer support to ask how to fix it, they told me, but they also sent me a brand new one in the mail! No receipt or hassle. Great company! :D
If somebody is interested at having a go at some SMT pedal circuits, I have some boards left from some verified prototype runs. At the moment, I have Screwdriver boards where all the transistors are through-hole but everything else is SMT. I also have some Deep Blue Delay boards (entirely SMT). I have BOMs with Mouser Part Numbers for both of them. The only exception is the PT2399S, which Mouser doesn't carry (but Small Bear and Mammoth do). Just shoot me a PM.
Quote from: Jdansti on February 03, 2013, 12:45:20 PM
Good ideas!
Seems like the hot air nozzles on these Weller Portasol butane soldering irons might work. You'd have to make sure the flame is low, otherwise you'd be cooking instead of soldering. :o
(http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q485/jdansti/DC7D4AE7-5DDF-4591-ACF0-6ECBFFF7F5DF-226-0000000DBEAE4DAE.jpg)
Nozzles and plastic cutter:
(http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q485/jdansti/F0C0760B-3BD4-4F0A-AA37-582864F1AB2A-226-0000000F62AE1429.jpg)
BTW- mine clogged up, and when I called Weller customer support to ask how to fix it, they told me, but they also sent me a brand new one in the mail! No receipt or hassle. Great company! :D
Yes indeed, my post above yours also points to one of those but for the Irodo iron which is better, I have used both and there best used hot, but quick. If your temp is too low they you just sit there slow boiling the IC and not melting the solder. If it's hot it melts solder in a matter of seconds without getting the chip exposed to heat for a long time., but it takes practice and everyone will have a prefered way.
Quote from: pickdropper on February 03, 2013, 01:05:38 PM
If somebody is interested at having a go at some SMT pedal circuits, I have some boards left from some verified prototype runs. At the moment, I have Screwdriver boards where all the transistors are through-hole but everything else is SMT. I also have some Deep Blue Delay boards (entirely SMT). I have BOMs with Mouser Part Numbers for both of them. The only exception is the PT2399S, which Mouser doesn't carry (but Small Bear and Mammoth do). Just shoot me a PM.
Can you post a picture of the Deep blue delay boards please.
Quote from: Ice-9 on February 03, 2013, 03:33:04 PM
Yes indeed, my post above yours also points to one of those but for the Irodo iron which is better, I have used both and there best used hot, but quick. If your temp is too low they you just sit there slow boiling the IC and not melting the solder. If it's hot it melts solder in a matter of seconds without getting the chip exposed to heat for a long time., but it takes practice and everyone will have a prefered way.
I would disagree here, hot and fast can cause thermal stress damage to the IC, normal temp curves for smt soldering show a 1 - 3 minute preheat time then a shorter time at a higher temp to melt the solder. I typically hold the heat gun further away from the chip for a minute or two to evenly heat the entire area then bring it in a bit closer to melt the solder. It is not the heat that damages the chips, it is the sudden change or unequal distribution of heat that does.
Quote from: octfrank on February 03, 2013, 04:02:42 PM
Quote from: Ice-9 on February 03, 2013, 03:33:04 PM
Yes indeed, my post above yours also points to one of those but for the Irodo iron which is better, I have used both and there best used hot, but quick. If your temp is too low they you just sit there slow boiling the IC and not melting the solder. If it's hot it melts solder in a matter of seconds without getting the chip exposed to heat for a long time., but it takes practice and everyone will have a prefered way.
I would disagree here, hot and fast can cause thermal stress damage to the IC, normal temp curves for smt soldering show a 1 - 3 minute preheat time then a shorter time at a higher temp to melt the solder. I typically hold the heat gun further away from the chip for a minute or two to evenly heat the entire area then bring it in a bit closer to melt the solder. It is not the heat that damages the chips, it is the sudden change or unequal distribution of heat that does.
Yeah, this is closer to a real reflow profile. Another option is to pre-heat with a hot plate and then come in with the heat gun.
There are also inexpensive Chinese reflow ovens. They aren't fantastic, but they are a bit easier than using a heat gun as they have pre-programmed reflow profiles built in.
Quote from: Ice-9 on February 03, 2013, 03:34:57 PM
Quote from: pickdropper on February 03, 2013, 01:05:38 PM
If somebody is interested at having a go at some SMT pedal circuits, I have some boards left from some verified prototype runs. At the moment, I have Screwdriver boards where all the transistors are through-hole but everything else is SMT. I also have some Deep Blue Delay boards (entirely SMT). I have BOMs with Mouser Part Numbers for both of them. The only exception is the PT2399S, which Mouser doesn't carry (but Small Bear and Mammoth do). Just shoot me a PM.
Can you post a picture of the Deep blue delay boards please.
I'll try and get a better photo up later (I'm on my phone now) but you can see the board in the pictures thread. It is in my build with the red box with the Swiss Army knife logo on it.
Quote from: Jdansti on February 03, 2013, 12:45:20 PM
Nozzles and plastic cutter:
(http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q485/jdansti/F0C0760B-3BD4-4F0A-AA37-582864F1AB2A-226-0000000F62AE1429.jpg)
Do you think that deflector could be used to tin a PCB? I'm wondering if you cold heat it up, melt some solder on the rounded outside part and then drag it across the traces to tin them. Maybe with some flux on the board first. I almost want to buy one just to try.
Quote from: Taylor on December 05, 2012, 12:37:07 PM
- A kit with all the SMT parts so you don't have to worry about sourcing each individual resistor, etc.
Let me know if something like this appeals to you.
I would jump on this option.
Also, I know there are different package sizes of SMD parts, but there doesn't really seem to be a concensus among DIY builders regarding what size to use. It's tough keeping well stocked with through hole parts like resistors for example. Now imagine trying to stock all those values in 3 different package sizes for SMD projects. The thought of buying parts for a SMD project or multiple projects seems a little daunting. Or am I overthinking again?
Quote from: chi_boy on February 03, 2013, 06:51:02 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 05, 2012, 12:37:07 PM
- A kit with all the SMT parts so you don't have to worry about sourcing each individual resistor, etc.
Let me know if something like this appeals to you.
I would jump on this option.
Also, I know there are different package sizes of SMD parts, but there doesn't really seem to be a concensus among DIY builders regarding what size to use. It's tough keeping well stocked with through hole parts like resistors for example. Now imagine trying to stock all those values in 3 different package sizes for SMD projects. The thought of buying parts for a SMD project or multiple projects seems a little daunting. Or am I overthinking again?
Well, resistors aren't too bad as they are very inexpensive. I tend to use 0603, but you are correct that there is no consensus.
Most ceramic caps aren't too expensive either, although they get pricier as they get more dense. I mostly use 0805 caps, but I occasionally use 1206 for 47uF caps instead of using Tantalums.
Quote from: chi_boy on February 03, 2013, 06:39:31 PM
Do you think that deflector could be used to tin a PCB? I'm wondering if you cold heat it up, melt some solder on the rounded outside part and then drag it across the traces to tin them. Maybe with some flux on the board first. I almost want to buy one just to try.
Simpler and cheaper to use mass, not continuous heat.
Get a length of brass pipe at the hardware store. Clean the outside carefully, flux and tin it with the heat from a propane torch or a kitchen burner. For extra points, bend yourself up a U-shaped handle passing through the center of the pipe ... before ... you start heating it. :icon_biggrin:
Once it's tinned, you can tin a board by putting flux on the copper traces, then heating the pipe to above solder-melt temp and loading the pipe up with solder, then swiping it across the copper. Tinned board.
Im starting to see Tayda as a limited option for SMD. No electro smd caps. No smd chips (i dont think). No smd diodes. Half the average board will still be throughhole. Which would probably still save some room. But it would be nice to do majority smd, or have that option. Dont tell me i have to go back to futurlec :(
Anyway Tayda staff might want to start reading this thread :)
Hadnt been to futurlec for a while, just had a look. They have electro SMD's, but no resistors or caps. I would think you could cover 90% of smd orders between tayda and futurlec, im sure i used to see smd chips at futurlec (accidentally ordering a couple on occasion lol).
Paul
Paul,
Check out Mouser as well. It's more expensive than Tayda, but not always too bad. I usually buy resistors 100 at a time, so they are 1.4 cents each. A bunch of the caps I just bought were 2.4 cents each when I bought at least 50 pcs. Caps are all over the place, though.
I am pretty much comfortable with the idea of hybrid SMT and through-hole at this point... Like AMT for example is SMT but all caps above pF are through-hole... The less drilling and lead clipping the better! I prefer SMT over through-hole any day, hands down! It's a win win in my opinion...
Quote from: pickdropper on February 03, 2013, 07:27:56 PM
Paul,
Check out Mouser as well. It's more expensive than Tayda, but not always too bad. I usually buy resistors 100 at a time, so they are 1.4 cents each. A bunch of the caps I just bought were 2.4 cents each when I bought at least 50 pcs. Caps are all over the place, though.
Thanks Pickdropper. Unfortunately Mouser hates international orders (postage wise). Also, i hate their online store :) I reckon i could get the bulk of it through tayda and futurlec though...Postage is pretty cheap from both stores.
EDIT: forgot to mention in my early post, looking at the size of the pads of 0805, i reckon i could etch this with toner transfer. Bridges are probably the biggest issue but im pretty keen to give it a try now!! Might have to make up a simple boost in diptrace and give it a try.
Paul
Quote from: chromesphere on February 03, 2013, 08:03:15 PM
Quote from: pickdropper on February 03, 2013, 07:27:56 PM
Paul,
Check out Mouser as well. It's more expensive than Tayda, but not always too bad. I usually buy resistors 100 at a time, so they are 1.4 cents each. A bunch of the caps I just bought were 2.4 cents each when I bought at least 50 pcs. Caps are all over the place, though.
Thanks Pickdropper. Unfortunately Mouser hates international orders (postage wise). Also, i hate their online store :) I reckon i could get the bulk of it through tayda and futurlec though...Postage is pretty cheap from both stores.
EDIT: forgot to mention in my early post, looking at the size of the pads of 0805, i reckon i could etch this with toner transfer. Bridges are probably the biggest issue but im pretty keen to give it a try now!! Might have to make up a simple boost in diptrace and give it a try.
Paul
Try Newark/Farnell?
http://www.newark.com/
Jameco..
http://www.jameco.com/
Quote from: J0K3RX on February 03, 2013, 07:44:06 PM
I am pretty much comfortable with the idea of hybrid SMT and through-hole at this point... Like AMT for example is SMT but all caps above pF are through-hole... The less drilling and lead clipping the better! I prefer SMT over through-hole any day, hands down! It's a win win in my opinion...
Yep, sometimes hybrid is your only choice. On the screwdriver board I did, it had to be hybrid. Not too many surface mount Germaniums out there. :-)
Heres my....attempt....at an SMD layout i just slapped together. A booster (yay). Very simple. You could get the smds (0805) from tayda, resistors and caps. Thought it might be good practice. The booster is not my design but you can use my layout however you want.
UNVERIFIED
http://www.chromesphere.com/x/pedal/Pub_PCB_Layouts/SMD_Boost.pdf (http://www.chromesphere.com/x/pedal/Pub_PCB_Layouts/SMD_Boost.pdf)
Cheers,
Paul
Digikey has just about everything available in SMD, but I don't know how their pricing or shipping compares to others.
Quote from: chi_boy on February 03, 2013, 06:39:31 PM
Do you think that deflector could be used to tin a PCB? I'm wondering if you cold heat it up, melt some solder on the rounded outside part and then drag it across the traces to tin them. Maybe with some flux on the board first. I almost want to buy one just to try.
I agree with R.G. I think the deflector/concentrator is used to concentrate heat ~360 deg around a small piece of tubing or other smallish object. You place the thing you want to heat inside the curled part. I think I've used it on the lowest setting to heat up heat-shrink tubing.
I own one of those Portasol irons, same as in the pic, I use it 99% for heatshrink, and soldering in an emergency, when mains power is simply not available. It will do hot air, but in a very small localised area.
One of the points I was trying to make earlier is that you don't need to "gear up" to do SOIC IC's (pins are spaced at half the interval of a DIP IC) or 0805 components. You can use your standard "pedal" soldering iron. Also, hybrid is fine, this thread is about "getting comfortable" with SMT, not becoming a slave to it. I prefer to use the MKT box caps or green poly caps anyway, and SMT for small ceramics, and standard through-hole for electro's, at this stage.
I ordered a few 'ceramic' smd caps from tayda thinking that they were the norm for smd, but i realised that you can get film smd's as well (elsewhere). Does it matter sound wise? I know most caps make no difference, but im sure for through holes they are one of the capacitors most people suggest only using when specified.
Paul
Quote from: octfrank on February 03, 2013, 04:02:42 PM
Quote from: Ice-9 on February 03, 2013, 03:33:04 PM
Yes indeed, my post above yours also points to one of those but for the Irodo iron which is better, I have used both and there best used hot, but quick. If your temp is too low they you just sit there slow boiling the IC and not melting the solder. If it's hot it melts solder in a matter of seconds without getting the chip exposed to heat for a long time., but it takes practice and everyone will have a prefered way.
I would disagree here, hot and fast can cause thermal stress damage to the IC, normal temp curves for smt soldering show a 1 - 3 minute preheat time then a shorter time at a higher temp to melt the solder. I typically hold the heat gun further away from the chip for a minute or two to evenly heat the entire area then bring it in a bit closer to melt the solder. It is not the heat that damages the chips, it is the sudden change or unequal distribution of heat that does.
I see what you are saying Frank and thanks for the info, but in the last 15 years of using the solderpro butane hot air iron on its hottest setting removing , reprogramming and replacing countless 48 pin TSOPS using this method I have not had a single failure. Then again it could be that the solderpro 120's hottest setting might not be that hot.
I have also removed / soldered 2 FV-1 chips over a dozen times to different PCB's this way and they still perform without any problems.
To give a bit more detail, when removing an IC it usually would take about 30 seconds to get the temp upto the point that the solder will begin to flow and I also heat at a little more distance and then move in to melt the solder. Hope that makes it sounds more clear in how I remove IC's. I will give the lower temp 3minute way a try next time I'n doing some smt components to see if it works better.
Quote from: chromesphere on February 04, 2013, 06:02:09 AM
I ordered a few 'ceramic' smd caps from tayda thinking that they were the norm for smd, but i realised that you can get film smd's as well (elsewhere). Does it matter sound wise? I know most caps make no difference, but im sure for through holes they are one of the capacitors most people suggest only using when specified.
Paul
I don't think it matters much between surface mount or through-hole caps. I built a circuit with all through hole components and compared to the commercial total surface mount circuit which was basically the same circuit, I could hear little difference. With filters, there can be a noticeable difference between ceramic and film caps, with people having a preference for one or the other, often it just depends on the particular circuit and the tastes of the listener/builder.
As a bit of technique, I've had really good results from the following.
- If you etch your own boards, tin the SMD pads before trying to solder. Even better, tin, then use desoldering braid to leave a very thin and level surface film of solder. Lumps of solder will make SMD difficult.
- In an ideal world apply solder mask around the pad to help prevent shorts. A thin layer of nail polish will do in a pinch. Not mandatory, but helpful.
- Flux the pads for the SMD part. Liquid flux is handy because it leaves only a very thin layer, and the rosin film it leaves is sticky.
- Stick the part in place somehow. Sticky rosin works. I suspect solder paste preapplied to the pad would work, although I have not tried this. Anything to keep the part from moving as you solder is good.
- When all is ready, I clean the iron's tip and apply heat to the pad away from the lead. When the pad is at soldering temp, it reflows the solder on the pad and generally sticks the part to the pad. For me, this is the critical step - getting the first solder joint done so the part no longer moves when touched.
- Now solder the other leads. Heating the pad, not the lead is simplest for me. When the pad is molten, the lead solders. If the pad is not quite touching the lead, you can feed a tiny bit of solder onto the pad and this will build up and touch the pad.
- Use the smallest gauge solder you can get, so as to not leave huge blobs of solder on the pads.
Well, then there's that B&L stereo zoom microscope. Otherwise I have no chance of seeing what I'm doing. You young kids may be able to do this without optical assistance, or with just a visor, but I can't. :icon_biggrin:
Hi Taylor,
Yeah, I'm interested if you get a kit of parts together to get me into SMD. I keep meaning to take the leap, but never do, so I could use a helping hand/kick up the backside. Once I'd done a few, I'm sure I'd be easy about it, but there's always something else going on that means I don't need the hassle *right now*. So yeah, go for it.
Thanks,
Tom
A lot of good advice in RG's post above. Personally, I feel that flux is the key to getting good joints with SMT. The Kester 186 pens are great.
As far as the B&L stereo zoom microscopes, those are great but expensive. If you aren't allergic to Chinese made scopes, I purchased one from Amscope that is very high quality. I've been using it for about 5 years now and have been very pleased with it.
Edit: thanks Ronan for the response!
My confidence shrunk when i realised I had the wrong dimensions for 0805 components. Correct size being 1mm x 2mm
:icon_eek:
I'm going back to being scared again.
Paul
Anyone who can spare about $2.52 and the smallest of boards can take a whack at this LPB-1 layout.
(http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz249/Perrow_MLP/Builds/Layouts%20and%20transfers/SMTLPB-1.png)
All component are $0.01 each except the transistor which is $0.02 or $0.03 depending on choice (from Tayda that is). Resistors and caps have to be bought in packs of 50, but transistors can be bought in single quantities (so building 25 of these would still be just $3.00 and you'd have half of the resistors left over :icon_eek:). The transistor should drop nicely onto the "triangle" pads in the middle.
The board is square with about 1.5 cm sides, that's 0.6 inch sides. The image should be 300 dpi. This should be etchable with both toner transfer and photo resist.
Component numbers corresponds to Beavis schematic for the LPB-1 (http://www.beavisaudio.com/schematics/Electro-Harmonix-LPB-1-Schematic.htm).
N.B. This project is unverified, you might loose your $2.52, at least the $0.08 in components that's going onto this board.
Edit: Can't count.
I wasnt sure if i should mention it, but yeah, my layout is the LPB1 and you can also check the schem on Beavis's site. The pdf is at the right size to print.
I just printed the layout off myself, i'm really starting to see HOW SMALL these components are!
Paul
Nice one Pelle, that would be a great start into SMT, thanks for sharing.
Thanks Perrow
You're welcome :)
Please note that it is unverified, but, with seven components I guess you can double check it before committing to the build ;D
Went looking for something a little 'more' than an LPB-1 and the Big B*stard (http://rumbust.net/Big+Bastard) popped up on the 'show new replies page'. So here goes, totally unverified, SMD 386 drops in the empty space, through hole components on the reverse side (back of screen). Test for the value of 'VR1' and order a resistor of the appropriate value.
(http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz249/Perrow_MLP/Builds/Layouts%20and%20transfers/BigBastardSMT.png)
300dpi. Board measures 2.4 x 1.5 cm, 0.95 x 0.6 inches. I printed it to test the size of the SOIC-8 pads, it's sooooo small :icon_eek:
No, seriously, you won't believe how small it is before you've printed it, it's the width of my thumbnail and as long as 1.5 thumbnails.
Top row is input, 9V and out. Gain pot on the two pads in the middle and ground on the bottom.
Quote from: Perrow on February 06, 2013, 05:28:52 AM
Went looking for something a little 'more' than an LPB-1 and the Big B*stard (http://rumbust.net/Big+Bastard) popped up on the 'show new replies page'. So here goes, totally unverified, SMD 386 drops in the empty space, through hole components on the reverse side (back of screen). Test for the value of 'VR1' and order a resistor of the appropriate value.
(http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz249/Perrow_MLP/Builds/Layouts%20and%20transfers/BigBastardSMT.png)
300dpi. Board measures 2.4 x 1.5 cm, 0.95 x 0.6 inches. I printed it to test the size of the SOIC-8 pads, it's sooooo small :icon_eek:
No, seriously, you won't believe how small it is before you've printed it, it's the width of my thumbnail and as long as 1.5 thumbnails.
Top row is input, 9V and out. Gain pot on the two pads in the middle and ground on the bottom.
What program did you use for this layout? I want to do SMT layouts in DIYLC, but I don't know how to create parts.
Quote from: Perrow on February 06, 2013, 05:28:52 AM
Went looking for something a little 'more' than an LPB-1 and the Big B*stard (http://rumbust.net/Big+Bastard) popped up on the 'show new replies page'. So here goes, totally unverified, SMD 386 drops in the empty space, through hole components on the reverse side (back of screen).
This is awesome, thank you!
Quote from: therecordingart on February 06, 2013, 09:24:46 AM
What program did you use for this layout? I want to do SMT layouts in DIYLC, but I don't know how to create parts.
I use DIYLC. The resistors and caps are just regular components (length = 2mm, width = 1mm for 0805). I adjust the regular pads (hole size 0) to fit my needs, the SOIC pads are actually two pads per leg, size 0.03 inch and on adjacent grid points - grid spacing 0.025. Did a Google image search for SOIC-8 and found that the legs are in fact 0.05 inches apart, so it's quite easy to adjust the grid setting to fit.
As Tayda doesn't stock SMT electrolytics or J201 I used regular through holes for those. I thought about allowing space for a trimmer but those are just so big I decided against it.
Thanks for the layout, Perrow!! Only wrench in the works is having to figure what resistor should go where the trimpot would be used before ordering parts for the project.
I recall someone who goes by the handle "culturejam" made up a surface mount Tubescreamer pcb, I believe. Not sure if it was just for personal use or not, because I've never seen a layout for it.
Well my goal was to get some SMD talk going and make some converts - looks like that has happened! Not sure then if the kit thing would go through but I will definitely resurrect some of my old circuits that no one built and do SMD layouts for them and post them here.
sounds good to me. once i was done being scared of SMT, i started getting excited ::)
It sure has Taylor. I have even gone as far as making an SMD layout of the LPB1 for fabrication! Only 6 boards (for practice) but the fab process is another new for me (a test run), and was actually not as hard as i thought it would be.
I've been thinking of trying smd for some time now. Your post was the kick in the ass i needed :D
Thanks again,
Paul
I won't repeatedly spam this thread, but I posted a few extra SMT protos in the for sale section if anybody is looking to give SMT a shot.
Mods: if it is bad form to post this here, please delete this (or ask me and I'll delete it).
Thought I'd scan the bay for a "starter kit" and found this (http://www.ebay.com/itm/SMD-0805-50-Value-Resistors-40-Value-Capacitor-Package-Assorted-Kit-Set-/280952840955?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item416a1822fb). 50 different resistors (x 30) and 40 different caps (x 20) for $10 + $1 shipping.
That's less than half a cent for each component :icon_eek:
Electrolytic caps kit search (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=smd+electrolytic+capacitors+assorted+kit&_sop=15&_osacat=0&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313&_nkw=smd+electrolytic+capacitors+kit&_sacat=0&_from=R40) (check voltage so you don't get 10V ones). Looks like you can get a nice starter kit for $10 plus a few for shipping there as well.
The thick film resistor and ceramic cap seems like a decent deal, but I would verify that they are bagged or labeled first. There are kits out there that come in binders that keep things straightened out. Particularly the caps, which generally have no label on them.
Personally, I'd skip the SMT electros. I always skip those in favor of Tantalums.