please reccomend some bass compressors.
A buddy has asked me to build one for him.
Thanks
QD2, with a buffer in front.
Sorry Mike
QD2?
Sorry, quick 'n dirty 2. Jack Orma's take on the SSM2166 datasheet. Search the forum for SSM2166 compressor and you should be okay. Also Merlin's engineers thumb is very nice, and there was a very interesting one on the forum not so long ago which I can't find just now.
I really like the SSM2166 one - plus it has a gate, compressor AND limiter all in one go with very low parts count. It's still on my board and has been for years. There's a lot of arguing about taste, but I've never liked Dyna/ross types on bass. Too squashed and muddy.
Thanks Mike
I already built the engineers thumb and i like it as much as the orange sqeezer. I also built and like Marks modded Squeezer.
I'll take a look at Jacks Comp. I like the idea of a comp /limiter with gate and i think my buddy will too.
I'm awaiting optofets for the salad squeezer to complete and debug.
Thanks for the tip.
I like that its low part count and the quick sample i listened to sounded good too.
The one chip isnt cheap though but i'm sure it'd be worth it.
I'll put it to my buddy when i can get hold of him.
Quote from: Kipper4 on April 09, 2013, 04:05:39 PM
Thanks Mike
I already built the engineers thumb and i like it as much as the orange sqeezer. I also built and like Marks modded Squeezer.
I'll take a look at Jacks Comp. I like the idea of a comp /limiter with gate and i think my buddy will too.
I'm awaiting optofets for the salad squeezer to complete and debug.
Thanks for the tip.
For bass, I think Circuit Salad's MOSFET comp would be a better choice. It's almost as easy, and it is insanely punchy sounding. Honestly it's the closest I've heard to a wall-of-bass recording track.
Shameless plug: My Bearhug got the thumbs up from at least one bassist, and it's cheap and easy.
Agreed on the SSM2166. That chip is insane.
oops
heres what he wants. I'm not sure i'm gonna find something like this
" I was looking for something that gave a solid cut off mate almost like how you mute a string right after playing it to give a solid thump?"
Help me out here guys please
I'm hoping the opto fets arrive anytime soon now Jon So i can debug and test it.
The bearhug. let me go check it out
thanks
I built a flatline comp for a bass player , I think all I changed was the input cap to 1uf. It's a great comp that is simple and doesn't color the sound, just adds that punch in the gut.
I actually etched a board and put together a little kit for another bass player friend of mine on the west coast and he loves it as well! I think it replaced his black finger tube comp.
Quote from: Kipper4 on April 09, 2013, 04:42:47 PM
oops
heres what he wants. I'm not sure i'm gonna find something like this
" I was looking for something that gave a solid cut off mate almost like how you mute a string right after playing it to give a solid thump?"
Help me out here guys please
Sounds to me like he is describing a gate with a really high threshold setting so you have to play somewhat hard to open the gate and then it shuts right away, muting the signal.
But personally, when I think of a bass sound that has a "solid thump", I do not necessarily think of a super short, gated decay. Instead, I think of a sound that is made by appropriately tweaking the Attack control on a compressor (like the QD2, maybe?). A slightly longer Attack setting will very briefly let the full volume of the bass come through for an instant, before the compression clamps it down, giving a "pop" or "thump" feeling to the sound.
If you build a QD2, you get Attack and Gate controls, so he can try either way. 8)
~ Charlie
I use it as a cheap compressor for recording vocals or anything else i want compressed. I use my mixers effect channel and run it through that. I built it as shown in the datasheet. I didnt think itd be that great but it makes everything sound a ton better and my band records vox exclusively with it cos the stuff on fruity loops doesnt sound as good.
Been meanin to build my bassist a compressor with one along with one for guitar for me!
The QD2 looks like a clear favorite at this time.
I believe what he wants is a slow enough attack to let the initial transiant through then clamp down. I've yet to speak to him to confirm this. As Charlie said
Keep the ideas coming anyway guys and thanks for all the help.
Rich
If you want a slow compressor, you could try one of the many optical ones kicking around. You might need to increase the input and output caps a little bit, but they will work fine otherwise.
If you have an LDR in your stash, it will only take 5 min to knock one of them up on the breadboard. Seeing as we are shamelessly plugging - I have tried my A-OK compressor with bass and it seemed to work pretty nicely.
you may also want to consider a blend control to mix compressed and unprocessed signals.
I am building a Forest Green Compressor for my bass...I will let you know, but its supposed to be really good for bass.
Great stuff guys
I'll be looking into them all thanks for all the suggestions so far.
A Buff and blend is something i considered already but not for the compressor.
I thought i'd put a distortion in the same box with a blend control and bypass.(for the Distortion)
I dont know what rig he has nowadays. Active/passive pick ups?
i would like to hear his rig and talk to him properly so he can explain more. I'm sure i will once he gets back from his easter break.
Sam have you got a schematic or thread link i cant find it when i do a search. I'll try and google it i often have more luck, i'll report back.
The forest green sounds good too let me know how the build and sound goes mate thanks
Rich
Quote from: Giglawyer on April 10, 2013, 01:29:57 PM
I am building a Forest Green Compressor for my bass...I will let you know, but its supposed to be really good for bass.
Eh, I just don't think that compressor has enough transistors to be any good. ::)
I found the comp Sam i've seen it before and reccomended it to some other builders on the HR forum too.
I might have to get some vactrols soon and bite the bullet. Wheres a good place to get them pls UK based ty
Most of the simple optical compressors (including mine) were designed to, or will work with, an LED/LDR combo. Might be about time to really learn how to 'role your own' (vactrol that is).
Maplin has a surprisingly good supply of LDRs, but I usually get mine from bitsbox. I'm usually too cheap for Vactrols, which you can get from the big guys (Farnell, RS etc) and often ebay.
I should stress that optical compressors do one thing quite well - fairly slow attack and smooth(ish) decay with minimal part counts. They are worth a quick try, but if they don't cut it, move on and try a more substantial compressor. I would usually suggest Merlin's 'engineers thumb' but I'm not sure how well it will cope with a potentially very hot signal (OTAs don't clip very nicely).
Edit - for interests sake, what's the HR forum? Your not in human resources are you!
Those vactrols are blooming expensive I might go take a lookie see at bits box mate and HR is
http://homerecording.com/bbs/forum.php
I tried the thumb tonight it sounds sweet but I'm not sure it's going to be what my friend wants . I will show him the thumb anyway and look into ldr led combos advice appreciated though if you have some tips .
Quote from: Kipper4 on April 10, 2013, 05:29:47 PM
Those vactrols are blooming expensive I might go take a lookie see at bits box mate and HR is
Homerecording.com/bbs/
I tried the thumb tonight it sounds sweet but I'm not sure it's going to be what my friend wants . I will show him the thumb anyway and look into ldr led combos advice appreciated though if you have some tips .
Are you sure your buddy is absolutely sure about what he's looking for? I'd be tempted to pack him off to a well stocked music shop so he can try some fx and report back - it might help to narrow down your search from "poking about in the dark" to "I need to clone a Boss Satsuma CS2000 RX+++++1" thingy.
Vactrols expensive? Yes and no. The Silonex NSL-32SR3 is £2.22 (plus the dreaded VAT) from Farnell:
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=3692218&CMP=i-bf9f-00001000
I can't buy a pint of beer for that round here! It's also a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of the other stuff that makes up a pedal (enclosure, a couple of decent jacks, good quality pots, knobs, switch and all the other gubbins). It's also stupidly fast, If you don't need fast then home brew vactrols are ok.
If it's any consolation our bass player tried any number of compressor pedals and turned his nose up at all of them - they were either not transparent enough, or did nowt at all (which pretty much sums up the majoity of compressor pedals for me too).
Compressing bass is hard - the detector part of the circuit needs to smooth the signal effectively (to prevent distortion), but without slowing down the response. I think someone's already mentioned compression with a wet / dry mix. It's also called parallel or New York compression and is a good way of reclaiming transparency from a compressor.
Still, perhaps he'll be happy with the Engineer's Thumb, or he may at least be able to say "can you make it more this / less that"...
Hope it goes OK. :icon_smile:
The flatline I suggested is an optical comp that uses a vactrol or a roll your own ldr/led . You can actually get away with building it with a vtl5c7 instead of the 3 , change a resistor I think it was 220K to a 470K theres info on the forum about it and change the input cap to something like 1uf .
It's an easy build and really seems to be what bass players want. Its not a dyna/ross type squeeze its just more transparent gives that long sustain and a soft knee to the attack. At least with the few changes made to it I did its a wonderful comp. Bass players seem to usually want transparent sound with more thump/low-mid gut and longer sustain and I think the flatline does it well and simple. I would suggest trying one of the ldr's from tayda with a lightly sanded led. And if anything socket the limiting resistor to the led to adjust till its perfect. And of course shrink wrap it. I think when it comes to rolling your own it helps to spread the light out. If you look at the viewing angle on newer high bright leds its narrow and intense at the center point. I built a mutron 3 and used an led with a Fresnel lens that had a lower forward voltage and let me use a limiting resistor that was very close to the original and sounded great!
I don't mean to sound like I'm pushing the ticket on the flatline I'm just saying it really sounds like something to consider. 3 bass players I've given this to love em.
here's a simple vero version
(http://www.sabrotone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Flatline.gif)
I drew up a pcb for it in pcbexpress if you want that let me know ill post it. And I think there's a few pcb images in the layouts gallery . I believe madbean offers a pcb for it as well.
I built the Demeter Compulator using the layout from tagboard effects
It works great for my basses and guitars
What I really like is it limits my Rickenbacker 4003. That thing has so much output. It's twice as loud as my jazz bass. Run it through the Compulator and I get all the squish and the same volume as my jazz. Keeps the sound guys happy
+1 on the Demeter Compulator. Awesome compressor. I've had one on my pedalboard for years. But I don't know if it's really the best option for "thump". I think it's main strength is transparency. Even with the comp knob cranked for massive gain reduction, you can barely hear it working. Instead of "thump", I would use the words "smooth" and "transparent" to describe it's sound.
~ Charlie
I did look at the Demeter and yes it has plenty of sqaush but as Charlie said i'm not sure it has that thump thing.
The flatline looks intresting too i'm gonna go review it now.
I think i'm going to need something with either a gate or severe adjustment on the attack (lots of time) and plenty of squish too.
Quote from: Kipper4 on April 11, 2013, 12:14:35 PM
I did look at the Demeter and yes it has plenty of sqaush but as Charlie said i'm not sure it has that thump thing.
The flatline looks intresting too i'm gonna go review it now.
I think i'm going to need something with either a gate or severe adjustment on the attack (lots of time) and plenty of squish too.
That's why you don't use max compression. :-)
I do just because it keeps the dynamic feel but stays a constant volume. Even during my slap parts.
Quote from: samhay on April 10, 2013, 05:06:40 PM
I would usually suggest Merlin's 'engineers thumb' but I'm not sure how well it will cope with a potentially very hot signal (OTAs don't clip very nicely).
If you use the input protection diodes then OTA clipping isn't a problem. Another advantage of the ET is that it is inherently tweakable to any threshold, ratio attack or decay that you might want, and because it is feedforward you don't get overcompression with long attack times.
The main difference between a bass and a guitar compressor is not the 'type' of compression, but that the bass compressor side chain has some form of tone control in it, so you can adjust the range of frequencies that trigger compression. The ET has a spare OTA, so if you used that to make two in the same box then you could arrange one to compress the bass, the other the treble, and mix the outputs. I could see that making an exceptional bass compressor...
Whhoooaaa
OTA's?
ET? isnt he the little green fella with the big finger who say Phone home or something.
Please explain this jargon so as i might follow.
I love the fact that Merlin B has answered a post of mine. Drops to knees and worships you Waynes world style.
Great compressor Merlin. Thanks for sharing it.
Can i ask how it would be modded in a fashion to make the kind of thump i think my friend wants described above.
Rich
Quote from: Kipper4 on April 11, 2013, 03:53:18 PM
Whhoooaaa
OTA's?
ET? isnt he the little green fella with the big finger who say Phone home or something.
Please explain this jargon so as i might follow.
I love the fact that Merlin B has answered a post of mine. Drops to knees and worships you Waynes world style.
Great compressor Merlin. Thanks for sharing it.
Can i ask how it would be modded in a fashion to make the kind of thump i think my friend wants described above.
Rich
I'm not sure really what he means by thump.
What he describes sound like just an attack then mute and that you just do with your hands. Most compressors with a quick attack with hit hard fast then he just should me with his hand per the norm.
Is there a recording that he associates this "thump" to?
Quote from: Kipper4 on April 11, 2013, 03:53:18 PM
Whhoooaaa
OTA's?
ET?
Please explain this jargon so as i might follow.
OTA = operational transconductance amplifier. The LM13700 has two of them, but only one is used in the engineer's thumb. Therefore, you could build two ETs around one 13700, each voiced differently.
ET = Engineer's Thumb! ;D
Quote
Can i ask how it would be modded in a fashion to make the kind of thump i think my friend wants described above.
I don't really know what he means by thump, either. Could be separate bass and treble compression like I mentioned, could be something else. Could be almost anything...
^ that would be nice for bass and guitar....just what i need as i play both..
but not at the same time.. ;D
Quote from: merlinb on April 11, 2013, 03:19:10 PM
Quote from: samhay on April 10, 2013, 05:06:40 PM
I would usually suggest Merlin's 'engineers thumb' but I'm not sure how well it will cope with a potentially very hot signal (OTAs don't clip very nicely).
If you use the input protection diodes then OTA clipping isn't a problem. Another advantage of the ET is that it is inherently tweakable to any threshold, ratio attack or decay that you might want, and because it is feedforward you don't get overcompression with long attack times.
Fair point about the clipping diodes. However, to play devil's advocate: aren't you just trading objectionable (OTA) clipping for less objectionable (diode) clipping?
This problem is not limited to the ET, but in this case the LM13700 can cope with a +/-18V supply, so perhaps a better solution would be more headroom using a charge pump to create a bipolar supply of perhaps +/-9V.
Quote from: merlinb on April 11, 2013, 03:19:10 PM
The main difference between a bass and a guitar compressor is not the 'type' of compression, but that the bass compressor side chain has some form of tone control in it, so you can adjust the range of frequencies that trigger compression. The ET has a spare OTA, so if you used that to make two in the same box then you could arrange one to compress the bass, the other the treble, and mix the outputs. I could see that making an exceptional bass compressor...
I've been meaning to build an ET for a while. The main thing that has stopped me from doing so is the dissatisfaction of leaving half the LM13700 unused. I was thinking of doing a two-stage feed-forward/feed-back compressor, but I like this idea a lot. It might work nicely on guitar too if you set the cut-off frequency quite high to treat the trebles differently.
Quote from: samhay on April 12, 2013, 06:51:24 AM
Fair point about the clipping diodes. However, to play devil's advocate: aren't you just trading objectionable (OTA) clipping for less objectionable (diode) clipping?
Well, yes. You sound like you disapprove of this, for some reason? If you choose the diodes correctly then you can get it to clip just before the OTA would have, so you needn't lose any significant headroom.
Quoteperhaps a better solution would be more headroom using a charge pump to create a bipolar supply of perhaps +/-9V.
Unfortunately that won't help in this case because the OTA is in a feedback loop, so when it clips the gain reverts to max and everything goes ape. Hence the clipping diodes.
Not all problems can be solved with a charge pump... ::)
Quote from: merlinb on April 11, 2013, 03:19:10 PM
The main difference between a bass and a guitar compressor is not the 'type' of compression, but that the bass compressor side chain has some form of tone control in it, so you can adjust the range of frequencies that trigger compression. The ET has a spare OTA, so if you used that to make two in the same box then you could arrange one to compress the bass, the other the treble, and mix the outputs. I could see that making an exceptional bass compressor...
Me too! Awesome idea! 8)
So, would you simply add the treble boost mod to one of them, or would you filter somehow closer to the input of one?
~ Charlie
Quote from: merlinb on April 12, 2013, 10:28:22 AM
Quote from: samhay on April 12, 2013, 06:51:24 AM
Fair point about the clipping diodes. However, to play devil's advocate: aren't you just trading objectionable (OTA) clipping for less objectionable (diode) clipping?
Well, yes. You sound like you disapprove of this, for some reason? If you choose the diodes correctly then you can get it to clip just before the OTA would have, so you needn't lose any significant headroom.
Quoteperhaps a better solution would be more headroom using a charge pump to create a bipolar supply of perhaps +/-9V.
Unfortunately that won't help in this case because the OTA is in a feedback loop, so when it clips the gain reverts to max and everything goes ape. Hence the clipping diodes.
Not all problems can be solved with a charge pump... ::)
Don't get me wrong, I like your ET and I think the clipping diodes are a good choice in this application. However, IF one wanted to get max headroom with a stompbox compressor, then this might not be the way to go.
I might be missing someting about the supply voltage/cliiping issue, but isn't that getting quite unlikely if both the op-amps and OTA are running at +/- 9V?
Anyway, if you can hit the rails of the OTA on a +/-9V supply then I don't see why you couldn't use a pair of 6 or 7V Zeners in place of the LEDs. I guess either way, we may need to scale down the current going into the OTA from the precision current source?
Edit - or at least the current per V out of the envelope detector.
Quote from: moosapotamus on April 12, 2013, 10:46:16 AM
Quote from: merlinb on April 11, 2013, 03:19:10 PM
The main difference between a bass and a guitar compressor is not the 'type' of compression, but that the bass compressor side chain has some form of tone control in it, so you can adjust the range of frequencies that trigger compression. The ET has a spare OTA, so if you used that to make two in the same box then you could arrange one to compress the bass, the other the treble, and mix the outputs. I could see that making an exceptional bass compressor...
Me too! Awesome idea! 8)
So, would you simply add the treble boost mod to one of them, or would you filter somehow closer to the input of one?
~ Charlie
Not sure abotu Merlin, but I was thinking more along the lines of using a low-pass and high-pass filter to split your signal prior to any compression and then running two compressors (bass and treble) in parallel before mixing at the output.
Quote from: samhay on April 12, 2013, 11:08:37 AM
However, IF one wanted to get max headroom with a stompbox compressor, then this might not be the way to go.
True. If you want extraordinary amounts of headroom from an ordinary stompbox, then optical compression is the way to go.
It's a moot point in this case, as the ET has enough headroom to handle active bass pickups already.
Quote
I might be missing someting about the supply voltage/clipping issue, but isn't that getting quite unlikely if both the op-amps and OTA are running at +/- 9V?
The trouble is that it is not so much the supply rails that limit an OTA, but the input signal to it, which starts to distort around 150mVpp. So if you want the circuit as a whole to handle larger signals than it already does, then you have to scale the divider that feeds the input of the OTA,
and scale down the current per V of the envelope detector (as you pointed out), so you end up sacrificing threshold. In other words, it would become a line-level compressor rather than an instrument level compressor. Making a device that can do both with equal ease requires a good deal more expense, and is probably beyond most peoples needs anyway.
OK - thanks Merlin. Seems like a typical case of me over-thinking something again.
Kipper - sorry for the thread derail. Have you made any progess?
Nope no problem guys. its all intresting.
I have to wait for my buddy to return home. he's working away right now.
As soon as i hear anything i'll ressurect the thread.
It has made me think how it would be good to have an all in 1 box for bass for me though.
inc
preamp
compressor
distortion with blend function
dual output (maybe one of them with compatable with line level, for direct to FOH board when gigging)
switching for Active/passive bass or dual input
Is this even a possible?