DIYstompboxes.com

DIY Stompboxes => Building your own stompbox => Topic started by: Canucker on May 12, 2013, 06:16:12 PM

Title: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Canucker on May 12, 2013, 06:16:12 PM
Since there are a few different methods for transfering your design to make a PCB I figured I'd start a thread that compared the methods. Some people think the press n' peel blue is the only way to go (because of not having success any other way) and others feel its a waste of money....so whats your fave way and do you have any pointers on your method of choice?
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Isak on May 12, 2013, 06:31:01 PM
Well ...I pirnt the designs on clear paper on the laser printer and then expose to the positive board with black light for 10 min and the rest is history I guess :)
I don't press n peel, I never did that.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: gritz on May 12, 2013, 06:58:05 PM
While press and peel seems expensive (although I've never used it), the smart folks print their pcb pattern on a plain piece of paper first, then stick a piece of just_big_enough press and peel over the printed pattern and run it through the printer again. The whole messing with different priters / laminators / irons and whatnot does seem like a labour of love though. Pretreated photoresist PCB isn't that much more expensive than plain copperclad (around here anyway) and just feels more oldschool. :)
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Canucker on May 12, 2013, 08:22:49 PM
While press and peel seems expensive (although I've never used it), the smart folks print their pcb pattern on a plain piece of paper first, then stick a piece of just_big_enough press and peel over the printed pattern and run it through the printer again. The whole messing with different priters / laminators / irons and whatnot does seem like a labour of love though. Pretreated photoresist PCB isn't that much more expensive than plain copperclad (around here anyway) and just feels more oldschool. :)


Pretreated Photoresist here is about 5 times the cost and the instructions on the packaging is in asian script ONLY...I bought it once and followed instructions I found online and the results were not even close to usable. I can get press n peel here for under $2.50 a sheet and $2.50 shipping for up to ten sheets....I can do designs for around ten pedals on one sheet so thats cheap enough for me. They don't even sell vero around here so thats what got me printing my own boards early on and I much prefer professional look of it anyways. I like to etch designs on to my enclosures too and that is really eating into my supply of the press n peel so I figure I'd start this thread...plus as I said I've read in some threads how some people swear by it and others feel its a waste of money.
 
I'm lucky enough to have my own photocopier so I just use that to reproduce my print outs...cus I always seem to be having trouble with my printer (who doesnt?)...but I obviously have to print them off of the computer....so I do that at the draft setting to save on inke and then its over to the photocopier to darken things up....is a laser printer a lot better then an inkjet for this stuff? Mine is an ink jet
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: deadastronaut on May 12, 2013, 08:27:58 PM
i use photo  paper for pcbs, and etching boxes..never had a problem. always had great detail, and fine traces..

as long as the image is sharp its fine...ive done really tiny text on pcbs too , to test the resolution and its fine... 8)
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: pakrat on May 12, 2013, 09:02:48 PM
I also use photo paper for etching boxes, but I use thick, glossy magazine paper and a laminator for pcbs... 3 passes and it's done. I guess the best method is whatever works for you.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: chromesphere on May 12, 2013, 09:04:13 PM
I use magazine transfer because it does 99% of the PCB's i need to etch.  But....the resolution is a bit low and you get a bit of a jaggered edge.  Is that why people use pnp?  Resolution? You might JUST be able to use mag paper for smd, but i've just been ordering those from fabbed from OSH anyway as they are so small they are dirt cheap to get made.
Paul
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: pakrat on May 12, 2013, 09:46:48 PM
I tried PNP and got the same results as glossy paper.... slight jaggies. It does come off a lot easier though.....
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Govmnt_Lacky on May 12, 2013, 10:00:18 PM
PnP blue ALL THE WAY for PCB etches. Have had next to 0 problems with it and I have done layouts up to 150mm x 100mm  :icon_eek:

Just did my very first cover plate etch with PnP blue. It actually turned out pretty good. Only advice I would give is to make sure your text is large enough. Mine was fairly small and some of the knob labels ran together and became slightly unreadable  :-\

All-in-all it was a good first go with PnP blue and ferric Chloride to etch a cover plate FOR ME!!  ;D
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Arcane Analog on May 12, 2013, 10:09:38 PM
PNP is good for beginers to ge their bearings but after your first few etches you should be good to move on to dollar store photopaper. I buy whatever the dollar store has and I usually get 10 sheets for under $2 taxes in. A sheet of PNP is $2 and you will probably have to have it shipped.

As far as detail goes, I can get pretty detailed with etched boxes. You just need to practice a few times. Save your cash for mojo! Haha.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Canucker on May 12, 2013, 10:14:11 PM
I also use photo paper for etching boxes, but I use thick, glossy magazine paper and a laminator for pcbs... 3 passes and it's done. I guess the best method is whatever works for you.

Probably a silly question by why the preference for thicker paper?
I just tried using birthday wrapping paper (which was pretty thin)  as opposed to magazine paper....it got all of the details but I was etching a piece of artwork into steel as opposed to copper or aluminum....steel its more difficult because its so hard...so the results weren't all that great but for copper or aluminum I think it would have been ok.

Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: chromesphere on May 12, 2013, 10:22:50 PM
Im not sure why people use photo paper over magazine paper either Canucker, good question!  The magazine paper i use is pretty dam thin!
Paul
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: deadastronaut on May 12, 2013, 10:26:51 PM
fibres maybe...thickness?...hmmm..

ive used mag paper with great results, my printer prefers 150gsm thickness though..
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: chromesphere on May 12, 2013, 10:29:08 PM
ime, its to do with fibres...

Ah!  I can vouche for this with magazine paper.  Once i etched 10 boards at once.  Put it this way, by the time i finished, i was considering stealing something from the museum...no fingerprints left...

Paul
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: deadastronaut on May 12, 2013, 10:30:10 PM
^ lol..yeah right.. ;D
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Canucker on May 12, 2013, 10:33:18 PM
I'd think the fibers in thin paper would be better. I guess I'll have to give both a shot to see what works best for me. I guess overall with enough practice people can "master" any method.
When people talk about laminators are we talking about what  we used to make our fake ID's back in the day. The is one of those somewhere around here.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: chromesphere on May 12, 2013, 10:36:31 PM
I figured the idea was the photopaper came off without leaving any fibers?  Idk, im just speculating now.

Awaiting our photopaper experts to arrive. :D

Paul
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: J0K3RX on May 12, 2013, 10:42:06 PM
I use really thin glossy paper... not sure if it's what you would call "photo paper" but it's glossy and it works great. Plus, it's a lot cheaper than the thicker photo paper! I let it sit in warm water for about 5 min after I iron it on the board and it just falls right off. I know I have said it before but make sure you get good toner!! Some toners don't re-transfer well, at all! Stay away from half price generic toner and refills!

Edit: I have used real "photo paper" and it does leave a lot less fibers but you now have the gloss residue getting melted onto the board which contains fibers... sooooo :icon_rolleyes:
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: deadastronaut on May 12, 2013, 10:43:44 PM
@paul: ^ indeed, if you peel off the photo paper just as its cooling down  you can peel it ALL off nice and cleanly. ;)

no rubbing, water or anything... 8)
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: J0K3RX on May 12, 2013, 10:51:25 PM
By the way.. there is this stuff, transparent laser jet paper... No fibers in it at all. I think you can iron it but you would probably have to put a piece of regular paper over the iron side so it wouldn't melt onto the iron... It's high temp to withstand the fuser heat but I don't know about prolonged periods under a clothes iron? The toner comes off of it fairly easy so I would imagine it would transfer well onto copper or an enclosure.

I have some, I may mess with it and see if I get time.

Do whatever Rob is doing!!! His stuff looks FANTASTIC!!!
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Earthscum on May 12, 2013, 11:00:10 PM
A good reason to use thicker paper is that it will push into inconsistent surfaces better. That's all.

Up until recently I would just screenprint with lacquer and I could wipe it off with denatured alcohol. The last board I made was a simple clean booster with MPF102. I just used a sharpie, using perf board to mark my holes. It ended up being a pretty decent board. Since I'm not a screen printer anymore, I'm probably going to move over to the transfer method. I've tried some stuff made just for transferring laser print to materials, and it worked ok (similar to PNP), but I had issues with boxes that weren't perfectly level. I like the look of a raw box with etch or screen print.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Canucker on May 12, 2013, 11:05:41 PM
I'm thinking a big part of peoples preferences comes from what kind/quality of printer ink they are using.. When I read about prepping boards and doing decals I always read the word "laser printer"...mine is an ink jet and until I started using the photo copier with my press n peel blue I didn't have one good etch with my printer....to the point where I just took a black marker and drew out some really ugly layouts on to the boards....lengthy process for ugly results.... it even took a few different black markers before I found one that worked well. Glad those days are behind me.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Labaris on May 12, 2013, 11:12:52 PM
By the way.. there is this stuff, transparent laser jet paper... No fibers in it at all. I think you can iron it but you would probably have to put a piece of regular paper over the iron side so it wouldn't melt onto the iron... It's high temp to withstand the fuser heat but I don't know about prolonged periods under a clothes iron? The toner comes off of it fairly easy so I would imagine it would transfer well onto copper or an enclosure.

I have some, I may mess with it and see if I get time.

Do whatever Rob is doing!!! His stuff looks FANTASTIC!!!

Waiting for the results  8)
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: J0K3RX on May 13, 2013, 12:41:16 AM
By the way.. there is this stuff, transparent laser jet paper... No fibers in it at all. I think you can iron it but you would probably have to put a piece of regular paper over the iron side so it wouldn't melt onto the iron... It's high temp to withstand the fuser heat but I don't know about prolonged periods under a clothes iron? The toner comes off of it fairly easy so I would imagine it would transfer well onto copper or an enclosure.

I have some, I may mess with it and see if I get time.

Do whatever Rob is doing!!! His stuff looks FANTASTIC!!!

Waiting for the results  8)



the stuff I have is kinda like this stuff...
http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/542290/Apollo-Laser-Printer-Transparency-Film-8/#firstTab

http://www.mybinding.com/apollo-laser-printer-transparency-film-50pk.html
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: pakrat on May 13, 2013, 12:42:14 AM
I also use photo paper for etching boxes, but I use thick, glossy magazine paper and a laminator for pcbs... 3 passes and it's done. I guess the best method is whatever works for you.

Probably a silly question by why the preference for thicker paper?
I just tried using birthday wrapping paper (which was pretty thin)  as opposed to magazine paper....it got all of the details but I was etching a piece of artwork into steel as opposed to copper or aluminum....steel its more difficult because its so hard...so the results weren't all that great but for copper or aluminum I think it would have been ok.



I wouldn't say I have a preference for the thicker paper, but I get a monthly specials flyer from one of my distributors for work and the paper is perfect for etching. It just happens to be thicker than standard magazine paper and isn't super glossy. To be honest, I don't think the paper has as much bearing on a successful transfer as does the box itself. I have several different brand enclosures that "like" a certain method. Some only like glossy photo paper, some only pnp. Maybe it has to do with the oil content in the casting process?
+1 on the dollar store photo gloss paper, that's what I use too and it works great.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: deadastronaut on May 13, 2013, 04:52:37 AM
^ yep, ive said it before, but eddystones are a different animal compared to hammonds...

hammonds are a lot harder to sand, i tried an NSC  box too,(the competition box, that were still waiting to see btw ::)) and that was an utter soab to sand...stay away..unless you want one big arm.. ;D

eddystones are like butter compared...i stick with those. and glossy 150gsm.


@canuker: you can get a laser printer for 50-80. with toner...the mad thing is a new' genuine'  toner cartridge will cost roughly the same :o

but on the plus side , will last a few years.... 8)

Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: haveyouseenhim on May 13, 2013, 05:00:51 AM
I use the pages of Taylor Guitars magazine called 'Wood and Steel' with a laser printer I found in a dumpster and ferric chloride. I get results like this...

(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj545/haveyouseenhim/DSC08401_zps7b60ecaa.jpg)
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: deadastronaut on May 13, 2013, 05:05:41 AM
looks terrible... ;D

 ;) 8)
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: haveyouseenhim on May 13, 2013, 05:37:00 AM
looks terrible... ;D

 ;) 8)

Yea, I was just showing people what not to do. I'm a total failure :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Perrow on May 13, 2013, 08:02:44 AM
(http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz249/Perrow_MLP/Random/DrumShieldPCB.jpg)

Inkjet on transparency, home made UV box (1W led in a metal candy box with a LM317 as a current regulator), developed in caustic soda, etched in NaOH.

Transparencies are re-usable, no prepping the board*, no scrubbing residue off the board, no iron to heat. 4 to 5 min exposure, 1 to 3 min developing depending on how fresh the solution is, a quick cleaning in water and you can drop in into the etch.

My next refinement of my method will be buying another 1W UV led (~$5) to cut the exposure time in half. Not that I can't wait 5 mins' for the exposure (I etch about one or two boards a month) but just because I can, might even go to three leds while I'm at it ;D

* Other than cutting it and sanding the edges but that's no different than any other method.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: gjcamann on May 13, 2013, 08:06:13 AM
Could someone recommend where/what to buy for supplies for PE and/or PnP? What's working best for you guys and where do you buy it? I live in the US. Thanx.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Labaris on May 13, 2013, 12:25:59 PM
(http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz249/Perrow_MLP/Random/DrumShieldPCB.jpg)

Inkjet on transparency, home made UV box (1W led in a metal candy box with a LM317 as a current regulator), developed in caustic soda, etched in NaOH.

Transparencies are re-usable, no prepping the board*, no scrubbing residue off the board, no iron to heat. 4 to 5 min exposure, 1 to 3 min developing depending on how fresh the solution is, a quick cleaning in water and you can drop in into the etch.

My next refinement of my method will be buying another 1W UV led (~$5) to cut the exposure time in half. Not that I can't wait 5 mins' for the exposure (I etch about one or two boards a month) but just because I can, might even go to three leds while I'm at it ;D

* Other than cutting it and sanding the edges but that's no different than any other method.

Great board!! Not just the etching but also the tracing. Which software you use?
So, it's clear form that Positive Photo Resist PCB is the way to go... Could you share your design of UV box? Thanks
Title: Re: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: jmwreck on May 13, 2013, 12:45:06 PM
this is the paper that I've been using, it works 100% accurate for me,  ebay link (http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/170900415854?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649), anyone tried this yet?
Title: Re: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: haveyouseenhim on May 13, 2013, 01:11:00 PM
this is the paper that I've been using, it works 100% accurate for me,  ebay link (http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/170900415854?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649), anyone tried this yet?

I'm going to find out. Bout to order some.

EDIT.   nevermind........I just read the sellers feedback comments. :icon_eek:
Title: Re: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Labaris on May 13, 2013, 02:46:38 PM
this is the paper that I've been using, it works 100% accurate for me,  ebay link (http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/170900415854?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649), anyone tried this yet?

Does it leave residue on the copper or aluminium?
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: artifus on May 13, 2013, 05:19:09 PM
is it not about substrate and toner rather than paper thickness? though earthscum has a point about inconsistent surfaces, though this would be more relevant to box etch i guess? does anyone know what materials are generally used to coat paper with? anything to look for on the blurb? different chemicals would have different properties, ie reaction to heat. would be interesting to know.

new to toner transfer having recently acquired a laser printer. still a little nervy with it so have been wary with media. yet to try magazine paper even. some success so far. experimented a little with uv without much success last year before the inkjet died, may try again sometime since i've made the light box, but will stick to transfer for now having picked up a little a6 laminator for pennies in a junk shop which works quite well - less effort than ironing anyhow.

so  in no particular order and aside from commercial offerings, for laser toner transfer media recommendations we have:

glossy magazine paper
glossy inkjet photo paper

have also heard of folk using and/or have contemplated trying:

laser transparancy
parchment / greaseproof / baking / sandwich paper or whatever it's called where you are.
vinyl eg: http://www.instructables.com/id/Vinyl-Sticker-PCB-How-To/?ALLSTEPS (http://www.instructables.com/id/Vinyl-Sticker-PCB-How-To/?ALLSTEPS) - not what i was thinking of but googles first offering.
laminator pouch / laminated paper (would worry about glue on printer rollers?)

have i missed any? any to add?

Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Perrow on May 13, 2013, 06:03:23 PM
Great board!! Not just the etching but also the tracing. Which software you use?
So, it's clear form that Positive Photo Resist PCB is the way to go... Could you share your design of UV box? Thanks

That'll be DIYLC done the curvy style (http://rumbust.net/Perrow+Style+DIYLC+PCBs).

Whipped up a wiki page about the UV Box (http://rumbust.net/UV+Box).
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: davent on May 13, 2013, 06:10:07 PM
Great board!! Not just the etching but also the tracing. Which software you use?
So, it's clear form that Positive Photo Resist PCB is the way to go... Could you share your design of UV box? Thanks

That'll be DIYLC done the curvy style (http://rumbust.net/Perrow+Style+DIYLC+PCBs).

Whipped up a wiki page about the UV Box (http://rumbust.net/UV+Box).

I've never had any issues just using regular fluorescent tubes/bulbs to expose the boards. Does take a longer exposure ~9min and needs to be close to the tubes,  1"/2.5cm, but really couldn't be simpler.

dave
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: artifus on May 13, 2013, 06:35:49 PM
had loads of issues last year, mostly due to ignorance, no doubt. that and cheap sh!t. made a couple of light boxes. tried daylight bulbs and various other uv sources before settling on leds but was still not happy. laser transfer has been least hassle/best results so far but plan to return to uv when time allows.

oh, the irony - i made pcb's for my light box with photocopies and clothes iron:
timerpcb (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1YrcZbzNJkUR194V29aX3VIbFk/edit?usp=sharing)
ledpcb (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1YrcZbzNJkUSlRHQjJLWW5odkk/edit?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Labaris on May 13, 2013, 06:55:43 PM
^ yep, ive said it before, but eddystones are a different animal compared to hammonds...

hammonds are a lot harder to sand, i tried an NSC  box too,(the competition box, that were still waiting to see btw ::)) and that was an utter soab to sand...stay away..unless you want one big arm.. ;D

eddystones are like butter compared...i stick with those. and glossy 150gsm.


What's the difference between Hammond and Eddystone? Hammond purchased Eddystone in 1998. See this link (http://www.hammondmfg.com/eddys.htm)
Are there two different types of boxes made by the same manufacturer (Hammond)?
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: artifus on May 13, 2013, 07:01:39 PM
welcome to the wonderful world of capitalism.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: CodeMonk on May 13, 2013, 07:19:25 PM
I've been using photo paper for years.
Works for me, but I have to get the really thin stuff since my cheap ass printer can't pick up the thicker stuff.
I think its max paper weight is either 24lbs or 32lbs.
It an HP Laserjet 4P and its seen better days.
I do have the service manual for it. Been thinking about taking it apart and cleaning it.

I've tried magazine paper (from actual magazines) but had trouble.
If I could get ahold of blank magazine paper, I would give it another shot.

I tried some clear contact paper the other day. Seemed to print on the paper ok.
Haven't tried the thermal transfer yet though.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: artifus on May 13, 2013, 07:22:25 PM
contact paper - is that like the backing paper from self adhesive labels? has anyone tried that?
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Labaris on May 13, 2013, 07:25:47 PM
...

new to toner transfer having recently acquired a laser printer. still a little nervy with it so have been wary with media. yet to try magazine paper even. some success so far. experimented a little with uv without much success last year before the inkjet died, may try again sometime since i've made the light box, but will stick to transfer for now having picked up a little a6 laminator for pennies in a junk shop which works quite well - less effort than ironing anyhow.


How do you use the laminator?
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: artifus on May 13, 2013, 07:47:49 PM
Quote
How do you use the laminator?

i can't stream video on this connection right now - i hope this is what i was thinking of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dS4HQfceK88 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dS4HQfceK88)

there are many other examples online - google 'pcb laminator toner' or some such. i use it instead of a clothes iron.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: CodeMonk on May 13, 2013, 08:00:43 PM
contact paper - is that like the backing paper from self adhesive labels? has anyone tried that?

No, but that sounds like a good idea too.

I got the idea to try that because someone posted it in the dollar store thread.
Its kind of like label paper on a roll.
Its mostly used on shelves.
This stuff : http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001B36F72/
Or:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000F8T5QM/

Google "Clear Contact Paper".

I cut a few pieces to size and put them between two pieces of glass to flatten them out.
The test piece I used, I cut it a little short, peeled off a little of the backing paper, and adhered it to a normal piece of paper (It never really flattened out).
The roll I have I found in the garage. Its a few years old so its probably never gonna flatten out.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: TheWinterSnow on May 13, 2013, 08:06:36 PM
Since I started making PCBs  little over a year ago, I have always used the presensitized photoresist copper clad board method.  For the most part where I live it is cheaper and considering my resources it was cheaper for me to start up making PCBs that way.  I know from around here that a lot of the guys using the PnP Blue or laser/iron method do so because they could never get the photoresist method to work.  I know first hand experience that it does have a steep learning curve, but once you learn how to do it correctly, it is extremely tight.  My registration now after building a UV box is so tight that I could easily make boards with 7 mil traces and 2-4 mil spacing and not think twice about it.  I could probably go even tighter which means more accurate than most board houses, but have never attempted it.  

Once you get the hang of the photoresist method, you really realize how amateur the Laser/Iron or PnP method is, which in realistically is catered towards the DIY guys.  Those who want to step up their game and make tighter boards or at least aim to make their PCBs the way professional companies make PCB will eventually find how to wrangle the bull when it comes to the photoresist method.

The great thing about presensitized boards is that you don't have to worry about cleaning them and scrubbing them to remove oxides and also you can reuse the transparencies.  So for any repeat board you make the only cost is the presensitized board, which for me I can get a single sided 9"x6" board for $9 USD.  For most stompbox pedals that can get your 8-12 PCBs.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: jmwreck on May 13, 2013, 08:09:20 PM

I'm going to find out. Bout to order some.

EDIT.   nevermind........I just read the sellers feedback comments. :icon_eek:

the comments were good, right?



Does it leave residue on the copper or aluminium?

no it doesn't. the ironing time is much lesser compared to the standard papers I've known. it also doesn't need water, once the board cools off, you can peal the paper and it will remove smoothly. for the aluminum, just be thorough on how you iron it.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/05/14/e2upu7uq.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/05/14/ameru9a5.jpg)
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: artifus on May 13, 2013, 08:16:08 PM
@codemonk - that sounds like what that guy calls vinyl in that instructable i linked to?

*also* no mention of board quality as yet - anything to look out for?
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: CodeMonk on May 13, 2013, 08:23:12 PM
@codemonk - that sounds like what that guy calls vinyl in that instructable i linked to?

I think its different stuff.
Contact paper has an adhesive on one side.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: kodiakklub on May 13, 2013, 08:49:58 PM
im using this stuff at the moment: http://www.pcbfx.com/main_site/pages/products/transfer_paper.html (http://www.pcbfx.com/main_site/pages/products/transfer_paper.html)

slightly different than PnP, with a laminator. laminator so much more consistent than the iron for me anyway. will def try mag/photo paper next.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: CodeMonk on May 13, 2013, 09:47:47 PM
@codemonk - that sounds like what that guy calls vinyl in that instructable i linked to?

*also* no mention of board quality as yet - anything to look out for?
Ok, contact paper is questionable.
The first 2 I tried, it skated all over the copper blank.
The third one, I just set the iron on top of it, without moving the iron around.
It stuck to the iron. I would suggest a piece of normal paper in between the iron and the contact paper.
Did the 4th one.
This time I cut the board oversized and taped the contact paper to the copper blank.

FAIL!:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/CodeMonk/Workshop/Etching/Contact_Paper_Test_000_zpsacdafcca.gif) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/CodeMonk/media/Workshop/Etching/Contact_Paper_Test_000_zpsacdafcca.gif.html)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/CodeMonk/Workshop/Etching/Contact_Paper_Test_001_zpsbe44ad87.gif) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/CodeMonk/media/Workshop/Etching/Contact_Paper_Test_001_zpsbe44ad87.gif.html)

Hmm...Maybe if I turn the temperature on the iron down, it may help. I dunno.
Contact paper is very thin and gets VERY soft while ironing.
I had the iron on there for 20 seconds and didn't move it or apply any pressure, just the weight of the iron.
Also left a lot of residue on the copper.

I may try it later tonight.
If I can get a good transfer, then I will try to etch and see if that residue has any effect on etching.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: chromesphere on May 14, 2013, 01:26:58 AM
Sticker backing paper!!  Still havent tried this...im going ot have to give it a go...
We use a4 sheets at the office for posting labels.  I would imagine you would have to be careful handling it, but the idea of not needing to rub off paper is an appealing one!
Paul
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: CodeMonk on May 14, 2013, 01:37:35 AM
Thats probably my next test.

I tried the contact paper.
Tried about 10 boards, varying temps, times, pressure.
All failed.
I have one last test going currently.
Have the iron set just above half temp.
Rubber band holding it down.
Gonna let it sit for about 10 minutes.
Then turn off the iron and let it cool down, then check it to see how it did.
Obviously, if this is what it takes to make it work, its not really worth the hassle and time.
With a board this size, it takes about 30 seconds of ironing and its good when using photo paper.

Although I am curious it would work with a laminator.


Edit:
And that picture of the board above?
The contact paper is still on the PCB, just kind of hard to see it.
When I peeled it off, most of the toner went with it.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Perrow on May 14, 2013, 02:57:40 AM
I've never had any issues just using regular fluorescent tubes/bulbs to expose the boards. Does take a longer exposure ~9min and needs to be close to the tubes,  1"/2.5cm, but really couldn't be simpler.

dave

I got times up to about an hour when doing the fluorescent tube thingy, that's why I turned to first an old UV "sun lamp" then the led. The box with the led was a fun little project too  ;D
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: deadastronaut on May 14, 2013, 05:44:48 AM
^ yep, ive said it before, but eddystones are a different animal compared to hammonds...

hammonds are a lot harder to sand, i tried an NSC  box too,(the competition box, that were still waiting to see btw ::)) and that was an utter soab to sand...stay away..unless you want one big arm.. ;D

eddystones are like butter compared...i stick with those. and glossy 150gsm.


What's the difference between Hammond and Eddystone? Hammond purchased Eddystone in 1998. See this link (http://www.hammondmfg.com/eddys.htm)
Are there two different types of boxes made by the same manufacturer (Hammond)?

definately....

i think they are just made in different castings, in different countries...with different properties.

eddystone soft...hammond hard.

Title: Re: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: jmwreck on May 14, 2013, 06:25:46 AM
the paper that I'm using won't leave any residue whatsoever, it can be peeled without water, just let everything cool down and that's it, I'm using the highest temperature for the iron.
Title: Re: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: deadastronaut on May 14, 2013, 07:12:57 AM
this is the paper that I've been using, it works 100% accurate for me,  ebay link (http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/170900415854?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649), anyone tried this yet?

looks good,..the write up is a weird translation.....


 is it like grease proof paper..?

(heads to the kitchen :))
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: chromesphere on May 14, 2013, 07:41:13 AM
Just used sticker backing paper.  It has a few quirks that you have to watch out for (don't touch the page or fold it as the toner will fall / scratch off very easily).  But the actually transferring of the toner was soooooooooo much easier then magazine paper.  Also the resolution of the transfer looks much better, the edges are relatively sharp.  I think i'm going to refine it further, its a lot less work them magazine paper with better results!

Here's a related question. When your removing the toner it shifts and sticks to the fiberglass substrate.  How do you avoid or reverse that from happening? Cause you know...its looks like s!@#...
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: jmwreck on May 14, 2013, 10:38:21 AM
this is the paper that I've been using, it works 100% accurate for me,  ebay link (http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/170900415854?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649), anyone tried this yet?

looks good,..the write up is a weird translation.....


 is it like grease proof paper..?

(heads to the kitchen :))

im not quite sure if it's grease proof :)  when i peel it off, the glossy part of the paper is still intact, it can be recycled but I haven't tried it.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: deadastronaut on May 14, 2013, 11:00:15 AM
@paul, yeah i tried sticker paper....the toner is VERY delicate..

@jm: is the toner easily scratched, as paul was saying?. delicate?
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: CodeMonk on May 14, 2013, 04:30:50 PM
Well, since my contact paper tests failed, thought I would give it a go with the contact paper backing paper.

Will report here later today/tonight (I only woke up just about an hour ago, it takes my brain awhile to get going.

With the contact paper, the majority of the toner transferred pretty well, leaving NO toner residue, but there were parts where toner just refused to let go.
It may have to do with the fact that that roll of contact paper has been sitting in my mom's garage for about 10 years enduring the changing weather patterns over time.
I dunno.

I currently have no use for the contact paper itself. Of course that will probably change about a week after I throw it away :).
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: chromesphere on May 14, 2013, 09:45:34 PM
A quick, unfocused snap of the sticker label transfer i did last night.  I'm luke warm about the results, there are a few things im going to have to address, but generally it was so much faster then magazine transfer.  I think the patchiness of the copper pour comes from no paper fibers to resist the etchant because it doesnt happen with magazine paper and there was no toner left over on the sticker label paper.  I must have had a patchy toner image to start off with!  Believe it or not, i also used a sharpie on the copper pour as a bit of extra insurance.  Im finding sharpies to be useless for fixing errors...

Despite the few hiccups, im going to persist with it.  It was just so much faster not having paper fibers stuck to the board, and having to scratch out the holes / tracks...

And a question!  I mentioned in the last post 'how do i get rid of toner blackening?'.  You can see it in the top right corner of this pcb (sort of), arrow pointing at it in the picture.  It happens randomly, and it gives me the sh!@#...kind of destroys the presentation of the pcb...any ideas to avoid or fix it?

(http://www.chromesphere.com/x/pedal/Sticker_Label_Etch.jpg)
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: J0K3RX on May 14, 2013, 10:31:56 PM

And a question!  I mentioned in the last post 'how do i get rid of toner blackening?'.  You can see it in the top right corner of this pcb (sort of), arrow pointing at it in the picture.  It happens randomly, and it gives me the sh!@#...kind of destroys the presentation of the pcb...any ideas to avoid or fix it?


never had that before? try sanding it off with fine wetsand paper maybe? That's what I use to remove the toner anyway, I don't use acetone or chemicals... I use Norton wetsand silicon carbide paper about 320 grit for removing toner and 400 grit for ultra fine buffing type sanding. Doesn't thin out the copper to any noticeable amount..  One sheet lasts forever, doesn't seem to ever wear out! The heavier grit is great for smoothing out board edges also and no dust when wet sanding is a plus!
http://www.nortonindustrial.com/waterproof-sanding.aspx
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: chromesphere on May 14, 2013, 11:58:17 PM
Its kind of like moving the toner off the tracks when i clean the board, the toner slips off the copper, but then adheres and smuggers onto the substrate...Happens all the time!  Really annoying...

i will try some sand paper, i was also thinking maybe a brush with some alchohol...cheers


Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Canucker on May 15, 2013, 12:06:58 AM
Wow I can't believe all the activity on this post. When I posted it I figured it must have been discussed at length already....maybe that was some time ago tough.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: chromesphere on May 15, 2013, 12:14:30 AM
Its been discussed a million times, but there are so many cool ideas its worth bringing up now and again!  Thanks for starting it, i feel the sticker paper trick is going to help for future etchs :D
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Canucker on May 15, 2013, 12:52:47 AM
I figured it was two million...I thought the first response I'd get would be "check out the thread from last week!".  :P
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: jmwreck on May 15, 2013, 01:40:52 AM

@jm: is the toner easily scratched, as paul was saying?. delicate?

Ok, based on my experience, after printing, I put it directly inside my folder to avoid it hitting corners and to avoid scratching it, it might be delicate but not that much. there was once, I dropped a small amount of water onto the print and the paper, I lightly wiped it off and the toner was still there. Just dont crease or fold it.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: chromesphere on May 15, 2013, 01:48:41 AM

@jm: is the toner easily scratched, as paul was saying?. delicate?

Ok, based on my experience, after printing, I put it directly inside my folder to avoid it hitting corners and to avoid scratching it, it might be delicate but not that much. there was once, I dropped a small amount of water onto the print and the paper, I lightly wiped it off and the toner was still there. Just dont crease or fold it.

Yep, from my brief introduction to it last night, it become quite obvious that the size of the line matters as well.  The thin boarder around that madbean bumblebee broke away VERY easily.  Luckily it didnt really matter too much.

For transporting i cut mine out of the a4 sheet and placed it inside a ziplock bag which seemed to work.  You still have to be careful with it though...
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: deadastronaut on May 15, 2013, 05:30:03 AM
@jim: yep that's what i do...old fine wet n dry, washing up liquid......i never use acetone to remove toner...too messy...

wire wool, just as good...

Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: CodeMonk on May 15, 2013, 06:44:41 AM
Well, tried the contact paper backing paper.
Did not go so well, but it's almost 4am and I have to go into town tomorrow at about 10am, so I kinda rushed it a bit.

I'll give it another go again tomorrow and see how it goes.
I think it may have potential.
Title: Re: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: jmwreck on May 15, 2013, 09:28:20 AM
the first thing I did was printing on an ordinary paper, print a draft/guideline, then cut the transfer paper into a bigger size than the guideline, taped it and back to the printer with highest quality printing. I do this coz the paper itself will make the printer choke due to its thinness.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: CodeMonk on May 15, 2013, 06:38:52 PM
Ok, so the contact paper backing paper is a no go.
To bad I have loads of it and only 3 or 4 sheets of photo paper left.
Will be going into town tomorrow though, so maybe I can pick up more.

In other news, I know this isn't DIYFixMyPrinter.com, but since I only use my laser printer for printing circuits and you all are so smart...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/CodeMonk/Workshop/Etching/100_2290_zpsbf598bec.gif) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/CodeMonk/media/Workshop/Etching/100_2290_zpsbf598bec.gif.html)

This is how all my prints look.
Basically only the far right column produces useable images.
And NO, I'm not running out of toner. It looks like this with brand new cartridges .
Its been the same for the last 3 NEW cartridges (official HP cartridges in it (HP Laserjet 4P) in varying degrees.

I do have the service manual for it, I just want to know what part of it I should focus on.
I'm thinking maybe the transfer roller (I hope its not the heater part of it).
Maybe if its the transfer roller, I can just clean it.

I know I should just buy a new printer, and I will at some point, but I'm a bit broke ATM.

Thanks.

Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: pakrat on May 15, 2013, 07:12:08 PM
Rob, I wish I had seen this sooner... I have tried the backing paper, and it worked EXTREMELY well for the first few boards, but after that it screwed up my printer. The wax coating gets heated and sticks to the drum/head. I had to print about 10 pages on regular paper to clear it. It's really too bad since the backing paper just falls off after transferring, but it's just not worth the risk of damage to the printer.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: CodeMonk on May 15, 2013, 07:23:04 PM
Rob, I wish I had seen this sooner... I have tried the backing paper, and it worked EXTREMELY well for the first few boards, but after that it screwed up my printer. The wax coating gets heated and sticks to the drum/head. I had to print about 10 pages on regular paper to clear it. It's really too bad since the backing paper just falls off after transferring, but it's just not worth the risk of damage to the printer.

Oh well.
Since it didn't work, I won't be using it anymore anyway.
And just to be clear, my printer has been like this since i got it.
I borrowed it from a friend, then without telling me, they moved out of state, so I guess it became mine after that :).
(Of course, they also took my AD50VT with them (her BF played the bass and I used to go over there to jam on the weekends. It was just easier to leave it there. NEVER again)).
But it was given to her by her neighbor, who gave it to her because of its current printing problems.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: J0K3RX on May 15, 2013, 07:32:09 PM
Ok, so the contact paper backing paper is a no go.
To bad I have loads of it and only 3 or 4 sheets of photo paper left.
Will be going into town tomorrow though, so maybe I can pick up more.

In other news, I know this isn't DIYFixMyPrinter.com, but since I only use my laser printer for printing circuits and you all are so smart...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/CodeMonk/Workshop/Etching/100_2290_zpsbf598bec.gif) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/CodeMonk/media/Workshop/Etching/100_2290_zpsbf598bec.gif.html)

This is how all my prints look.
Basically only the far right column produces useable images.
And NO, I'm not running out of toner. It looks like this with brand new cartridges .
Its been the same for the last 3 NEW cartridges (official HP cartridges in it (HP Laserjet 4P) in varying degrees.

I do have the service manual for it, I just want to know what part of it I should focus on.
I'm thinking maybe the transfer roller (I hope its not the heater part of it).
Maybe if its the transfer roller, I can just clean it.

I know I should just buy a new printer, and I will at some point, but I'm a bit broke ATM.

Thanks.



You need a new fuser assembly! You may be able to find one for cheap but they are usually quite expensive... And you NEVER want to run any paper or whatever that is not rated or made for use with laser printers!!!

http://www.printerworks.com/Images/Fuser-HP-LaserJet-4plus.jpg
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: chromesphere on May 15, 2013, 07:33:34 PM
Codemonk & Pakrat...

You should read what i've been harping on about in my last 5 posts on this thread :D

Use sticker backing paper.  The stuff that avery envelope labels comes with.  The layout image comes off soooooo easily...without any trouble, and it wont damage your printer!
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: CodeMonk on May 15, 2013, 07:47:45 PM
@J0K3RX :
Yeah the fuser. Couldn't think of the name.
That's what I have been thinking it was from the day I got the printer.
I was just hoping that there might be an alternative as far as what's causing the problem. A less expensive alternative at least.
It would be cheaper to buy a new printer than to get a new fuser :(

@chromesphere :
Yup, I have seen your posts, and following them.
I was just exploring other alternatives.

Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: chromesphere on May 15, 2013, 07:51:08 PM
Codemonk...NEVER try anything different.  Always follow the herd lol

I was following yours as well!  Shame it didnt turn out, but i have a feeling that sticker backing paper will work out for you!  Bit of pita getting it though if you dont have access to it.

Edit: theres no going back to mag paper for me!
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: CodeMonk on May 15, 2013, 08:05:20 PM
I've been a DIY'er since I was a kid.
I'm always taking one thing meant for another use and trying to make it work for my own perverted purposes.
Sometime it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: deadastronaut on May 15, 2013, 08:14:19 PM
cheers pakrat, i'll stick with what works for me then.. ;)

@codemonk...tthats a bummer, hope you get it fixed.. :)
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: chromesphere on May 15, 2013, 08:17:42 PM
Hey Rob, out of curosity, what method do you usually use?
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: deadastronaut on May 15, 2013, 08:53:02 PM
^ 150 gsm glossy photo paper, toner, hot iron, let cool to almost cold.., peel off...no residue, no wet rubbing etc...very clean.

PCB''S :  etch, rub off toner with 'worn' fine wet n dry...wet...done.

BOXES: from new, sand 120-180 till flat.  ....( same as above)  etch, sand with 400-600. paint, sand etch with 400-600.......drill...clearcoat.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: chromesphere on May 15, 2013, 08:59:47 PM
It sounds like glossy photo paper has a similar transfer effect as sticker backing paper...?  Might be a good alternative for those that cant get sticker backing paper.

Also, i wonder if sanding off the toner prevents it from sticking to the substrate...this might be where im going wrong.  Removing it with acetone and cotton pads aint working for me...

Thanks to all in the this thread, i have gained so much :D

Paul
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Tony Forestiere on May 15, 2013, 09:23:46 PM
Xerox/Laser toner is usually polystyrene.

The classic solvents are toluene and xylene (the smell in model cement). They rot your liver, give mice tumors, are not essential for most household work.... you may not be able to buy small quantities.(*)

http://www.bangslabs.com/sites/default/files/bangs/docs/pdf/Solvent_Listing.pdf lists acetone as a PS solvent. My experience is that it is almost useless. I suspect this is a list of what "might" soften PS, not a list of what WILL eat the stuff right off.

Toner is also binders and pigments. It could be that a binder coats the PS dust and resists the usual solvents.

Brake Kleener is nasty stuff. It takes the paint right off an engine. It rots your liver. It is super flammable. (*)It does contain toluene and xylene.

Make friends with your local copier/printer tech. They may carry some "pink stuff" with a brand name like Sel-Solv or D-Ink. It is formulated to clean fused toner with just a little quantity/mild wiping with a rag. A little dab'll do ya. Works great and smells noxious. Wear nitrile or latex gloves though. As Paul said, this stuff has nasties in it. Also, it leaves a bit of oily residue, so here's where the acetone comes in.

edit: Beats the hell out of the Fedron we used in the 80's. That stuff was REALLY bad for you. Absorbed through the skin and cumulatively deposited in the liver. http://siri.org/msds/f2/bbk/bbkmp.html

Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: J0K3RX on May 15, 2013, 09:50:56 PM
cleaning the fuser is not going to work if upper roller is damaged or worn, which is highly likely from looking at your prints. I have had luck just using alcohol but not very often and given the age of your printer it is probably due for replacement. I wouldn't try to clean it unless you can clearly see that there's something stuck to the roller! And I would not use anything other than alcohol! Acetone, no way!  :P You can try a fuser rebuild kit I have had good luck with them... That isn't a bad laser printer when all in good working order, really a work horse for the size!

Look here.. if your upper roller looks anything like the one in the picture then you need to replace it or the entire fuser assembly...
http://www.feedroller.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=1157
The worn areas vary from printer to printer so yours may be worn on the left side from looking at the pics?

 
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: chromesphere on May 15, 2013, 10:18:04 PM
Xerox/Laser toner is usually polystyrene.

The classic solvents are toluene and xylene (the smell in model cement). They rot your liver, give mice tumors, are not essential for most household work.... you may not be able to buy small quantities.(*)

http://www.bangslabs.com/sites/default/files/bangs/docs/pdf/Solvent_Listing.pdf lists acetone as a PS solvent. My experience is that it is almost useless. I suspect this is a list of what "might" soften PS, not a list of what WILL eat the stuff right off.

Toner is also binders and pigments. It could be that a binder coats the PS dust and resists the usual solvents.

Brake Kleener is nasty stuff. It takes the paint right off an engine. It rots your liver. It is super flammable. (*)It does contain toluene and xylene.

Make friends with your local copier/printer tech. They may carry some "pink stuff" with a brand name like Sel-Solv or D-Ink. It is formulated to clean fused toner with just a little quantity/mild wiping with a rag. A little dab'll do ya. Works great and smells noxious. Wear nitrile or latex gloves though. As Paul said, this stuff has nasties in it. Also, it leaves a bit of oily residue, so here's where the acetone comes in.

edit: Beats the hell out of the Fedron we used in the 80's. That stuff was REALLY bad for you. Absorbed through the skin and cumulatively deposited in the liver. http://siri.org/msds/f2/bbk/bbkmp.html



Not sure if that was directed at me Tony, but thanks for posting!  I think this explains the blackening issue im having (acetone doesnt dissolve it, it softens it).  I'll try sand paper next time, cheers!
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: pakrat on May 15, 2013, 10:23:26 PM
Mine cleared up after a bunch of printing. I took out the cartridge and shook it around and printed 10 pages or so.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: pakrat on May 15, 2013, 11:28:19 PM
I etched a board tonight so I decided to chronicle it to share what works for me. I doubt this will teach anyone anything new, but it's really fast and consistent.

First, I print the transfer onto semi-gloss magazine paper.

(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_2_zpsb56a24c4.jpg)

Then I fire up the laminator and let it heat up while I work.

(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_1_zpsb2e1b1fa.jpg)

Then measure and cut the board roughly to size.

(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_3_zps35d9b8c7.jpg)

Lightly sand the board with 1000 grit.

(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_4_zps4fa49b48.jpg)

Clean the board with naptha/lighter fluid.
(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_5_zpsad65cb89.jpg)

Put the the transfer on the board and send it through the laminator.

(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_6_zpsca59fb28.jpg)

When it comes out the other side.....
(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_7_zps423d1340.jpg)
It's done!

Run under luke warm water.

(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_8_zps182ebc44.jpg)

Rub the transfer off.

(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_9_zps7f243fc8.jpg)

Ready to etch.

(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_10_zps56495d57.jpg)

I use plastic bowls to etch, one with the etchant in it, and another larger bowl with hot water in it to heat the etchant.

(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_11_zpse2985690.jpg)

Agitating the etchant makes it etch faster.

(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_12_zpsb8f08da0.jpg)

Almost done!

(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_13_zps2da9ed23.jpg)

Rinse....

(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_14_zps1712c24e.jpg)

Then use acetone to clean off the toner.

(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_15_zps291db0a6.jpg)
(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_16_zps37105d85.jpg)

And finished.

(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_17_zps94b76940.jpg)
(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_18_zps9807caf7.jpg)

Of course, now it's time for my least favorite part.... drilling  >:(

Ok, so who's next up to bat?  ;D



Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: davent on May 16, 2013, 12:22:49 AM
^Your results are great! How thick is the copperclad that you're using seeing as you're cutting it with scissors/shears?

dave
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: pakrat on May 16, 2013, 01:41:42 AM
Thanks Dave! The board I use is FR-4 .060 1oz copper. It's pretty thick and durable. I get it from this guy:  http://stores.ebay.com/PCB-Laminates-Copper-Clad?_trksid=p2047675.l2563
By the way, I love your builds! I saw a brief tutorial over at madbean's forum for your Improvised Explosive Device and it is just amazing. I'd love to see more of how you do your artwork, it is STUNNING!
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: chromesphere on May 16, 2013, 03:55:07 AM
Nice results pakrat!  I see you use acetone to remove the toner which makes me thing im don't something wrong, cause mine blackens big time...also that magazine paper came off very neatly!  I think the mag paper I have used in the past has been too fiberous with not enough gloss...
Paul
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: deadastronaut on May 16, 2013, 07:08:24 AM
^Your results are great! How thick is the copperclad that you're using seeing as you're cutting it with scissors/shears?

dave

yeah i was going to ask that...cool, i hate sawing copper clad....that looks much easier, and no dust too....brilliant.


now build that chorus ;)...tip: add a volume, remove the 10k at the right of ic2 and use a jumper...then use a 100k pot on output....much better imo.

you get unity, and a boost ...i just did it as i like to kick it up a bit with distortion.. 8)
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: CodeMonk on May 16, 2013, 07:25:58 AM
...

Put the the transfer on the board and send it through the laminator.

(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_6_zpsca59fb28.jpg)

When it comes out the other side.....
(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/PCB_ETCH_7_zps423d1340.jpg)
It's done!
...

I've been curious and wanting to try the laminator route.
Most of the lower priced (under $100 US) laminators I have looked at though have a max thickness of around 5 mil. Which according to http://www.onlineconversion.com/length_all.htm comes out to around 0.127 mm.
Which is a bit thinner than copperclad :(.
So far I have only looked at Office Depot though.

Suggestions?
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: pakrat on May 16, 2013, 10:28:05 AM
@ Paul  Maybe the acetone doesn't work well for you because of the toner your printer uses?

@Rob H  Those are sheet metal shears I cut the board with. It works pretty well but I sometimes need to follow up with some sandpaper if I want it perfect. Be careful trying it on thinner boards or that CEM stuff.... it can crack. And thanks for the tips on the CE-2, now I know who to msg when I have problems with it  ;)  P.S. I think it's time you put out an etching tutorial because your boxes always look pristine!

@Rob J  The laminator I use is an old Model 6000. The boards barely make it through and sometimes I follow the board with a piece of scrap to help it along. You can find them on ebay for around $100 and it is a nice quality machine. The only reason I even tried it is because I HATE ironing!!

The next thing to try for enclosures is this:
(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/1e46fa99-0582-4b2e-8115-249e618d9212_zps537f22ea.jpg)
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: CodeMonk on May 16, 2013, 10:26:41 PM
I'm not sure what the one in this video costs, but I found similar ones for under $100, and several under the $50 mark.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Scotch-Thermal-Laminator-2-Roller/17208765#ProductDetail


Walmart has a bunch in the $30 - $40 range, but from that video, whenever I do decide to get a laminator, I think I'm going for a 2 roller one.
I don't mind the ironing too much, but a laminator seems like it would be much more consistent.




Quote
(http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w375/pakrat70/SEVENLEAF%20EFFECTS/PCB%20ETCHING%20WITH%20A%20LAMINATOR/1e46fa99-0582-4b2e-8115-249e618d9212_zps537f22ea.jpg)

And what the hell is that thing?
Looks like some kind of press.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: davent on May 16, 2013, 10:33:05 PM
Guessing a 'simple' heated press.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: pakrat on May 16, 2013, 11:14:47 PM
Yes, it's a heat press. A friend of mine who is a machinist made it for my xmas present. It's all steel plate and has a hot plate element in it with the temp control too. I think it gets up to 450 degrees which is more than enough to etch an enclosure. I haven't tried it yet because I had to add a piece of high heat silicone to the top plate to make up for inconsistencies on the boxes. I hope it works....
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: chromesphere on May 16, 2013, 11:27:29 PM
Yes, it's a heat press. A friend of mine who is a machinist made it for my xmas present. It's all steel plate and has a hot plate element in it with the temp control too. I think it gets up to 450 degrees which is more than enough to etch an enclosure. I haven't tried it yet because I had to add a piece of high heat silicone to the top plate to make up for inconsistencies on the boxes. I hope it works....

Pakrat, i think i speak for everyone here when i say, thats freaking hot as!  (pun intended) :D
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: CodeMonk on May 17, 2013, 12:48:06 AM
Yes, it's a heat press. A friend of mine who is a machinist made it for my xmas present. It's all steel plate and has a hot plate element in it with the temp control too. I think it gets up to 450 degrees which is more than enough to etch an enclosure. I haven't tried it yet because I had to add a piece of high heat silicone to the top plate to make up for inconsistencies on the boxes. I hope it works....

HURRY UP...

And use it.
We all want to see how awesome it works.

I got some glossy presentation paper today.
Office Depot didn't have any photo paper that was thin enough for my printer.
Max for my printer is around 32lbs or so.
All they had was 50+lbs :(
Hopefully tonight I will get a chance to try the presentation paper.
It was about $15 for 250 sheets, about half the price of most of the photo paper they had.
Both sides are glossy, although one side appeared to be a little shinier than the other. But that may have been a trick of the light in the store.
 

On another note, anyone know where to get blank magazine paper?
I often do double sided boards and while my light table is good enough to allow me to line things up, it barely does so.
With magazine paper being thinner, it may make that part of it easier to do.
Magazine paper with print on it, makes it a bit tough to line things up properly.

I'm sure at some point, I will probably need to put brighter bulbs in my light table though.

Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: chromesphere on May 17, 2013, 05:54:21 AM
Rob (h).  BIG thanks for your help mate!  Between your sticker paper tip and sandpapering off the toner, my etches are looking a hell of a lot better.  Sandpaper did the trick, no more blackening! 

(http://www.chromesphere.com/x/pedal/Sticker_Label_Etch2.jpg)

Now I just have to work out how to get rid of the patchiness :D

Paul
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: deadastronaut on May 17, 2013, 06:38:31 AM
no worries man,.. 8)

.solder.

when i first ever made a pcb it was as patchy as a patchy thing on national patchy day ;D......i tried sharpies, but they just melt the toner and look rough as f... imo

but after i flowed thin solder over it , it was fine.. 8)
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: chromesphere on May 17, 2013, 06:48:25 AM
Its really just a presentation thing..the board works ok.

Totally agree with the sharpie!  Utterly useless!  I just used a "artline" permanent marker in a couple of spots on this board and it worked quite well,  I'll have to buy one with a finer tip though.

Paul
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: CodeMonk on May 17, 2013, 07:06:12 AM
Fingernail polish can cover some of those spots that the toner missed.
Can be a bit tricky if its near a trace or pad though.
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: Perrow on May 17, 2013, 07:33:25 AM
Fingernail polish can cover some of those spots that the toner missed.
Can be a bit tricky if its near a trace or pad though.

...or you can build a UV box  ;)
Title: Re: Transfer Advice...pnp, photo paper, magazine paper..other?
Post by: CodeMonk on May 18, 2013, 06:09:22 AM
Fingernail polish can cover some of those spots that the toner missed.
Can be a bit tricky if its near a trace or pad though.

...or you can build a UV box  ;)

Thats on my list.
Speaking of...
I'm guessing there is a DIY method of putting the photo resist stuff on copper clad?
Links or info perhaps?

And here is the result of using the presentation paper.
Its glossy paper so it turned out fine and dandy.
Not perfect, but useable (As long as the circuit works that is :) )

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/CodeMonk/Workshop/Etching/Power_PCB_001_zps0d2f3e65.gif)