I think it would be fun to get all active member in a single thread throwing around ideas for a new pedal.
Personally I'm a modulation whore so I was thinking a cool "Shimmering Reverb" might be neat and challenging for everyone.
From a quick 10 minutes of searching I think the best way to go would be to get a reverb... then split the signal and send a wet only signal to an octave.
I think the best controls for the pedal would need to be "Depth of reverb", "Length of reverb", "Loudness of Shimmer", "Pitch of Shimmer".
So first things first... what Reverb Pedal would be the best starting place guys... let throw some ideas around and have fun.
Do you have any sound clips of what you have in mind?
I believe the Belton reverb brick puts out only wet signal and the dry is mixed back in. Send the output of a brick to whatever octaves (up, down, all around) and mix it back together. I think forum member deadastronaut has a nice delay that he made you could start with. Could add in external feedback around the reverb and octave, just around the reverb, just around the octave :icon_eek:, could add in power supply modulation too.
why not set up a bunch of vst plugins in a daw to experiment with different effects, order, routing and mixing?
Now that I had not considered.... like at all...
someone had there clever hat on today.
Quote from: mth5044 on June 29, 2013, 03:40:21 PM
Do you have any sound clips of what you have in mind?
I believe the Belton reverb brick puts out only wet signal and the dry is mixed back in. Send the output of a brick to whatever octaves (up, down, all around) and mix it back together. I think forum member deadastronaut has a nice delay that he made you could start with. Could add in external feedback around the reverb and octave, just around the reverb, just around the octave :icon_eek:, could add in power supply modulation too.
A buddy of mine set me the link below... I'd never heard the effect before like that and I thought it was really nice... what I figured was as a community we could make a project that was good stand in for the shimmer effect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hmWBQgiqjtY
Hear that high secondary note that come in after a moment... I think it is the 100% wet reverb signal that has been bumped up 1 octave.... I know the BlueSky is a crazy complicated pedal but I really am just after the shimmer effect of that octave reverb.
I think as a community we could strip away the crazy stuff and get the basics of this effect. Hopefully we can find a more simple way to do it... as it is a very pretty sound.
The BlueSky is all digital programmed stuff. It sounds a lot like a HOG in the effects loop of a reverb.
Quote from: mth5044 on June 29, 2013, 05:11:20 PM
The BlueSky is all digital programmed stuff. It sounds a lot like a HOG in the effects loop of a reverb.
Then maybe we should start with picking a reverb and try running it into a HOG? Anyone for a reverb pedal they have built recently? Anyone else have the schem or vero for the HOG?
Quote from: Ark Angel HFB on June 29, 2013, 05:14:42 PM
Then maybe we should start with picking a reverb...
this strikes me as backward. your choices are limited for simple diy reverb. brick or design your own from the pt2339 datasheet. there's your reverb. now think about the other processing involved in achieving the effect you desire.
other verbs are available but just consider it done for now. what else do you need?
QuoteAnyone else have the schem or vero for the HOG?
i think you may have missed this bit:
Quoteall digital programmed stuff
how are your smd soldering and uc programming skills?
this is not to say that a similar sounding effect could not be approximated with common diy parts and skills, of course, the range of available effects may be limited but if you were chasing a particular sweet spot sound it may be possible.
I agree with Art that the reverb part is easy. Let's assume that we start off with Deadastronaut's reverb:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=101126.msg914818#msg914818
(http://i.pgu.me/oqPHMyp7_original.png)
In my opinion, this would be a good reverb not only because it sounds great, but also because it was developed by forum members. We can always switch to something else if necessary.
Now let's talk about octave up. I'm really a noob about this, but my memory is that I've only seen octave effects that were part of and relied on harmonics generated by distortion to create the additional pitches. Does anyone know of an analog octave effect that doesn't involve "fuzz"?
Quote from: Jdansti on June 29, 2013, 05:56:51 PM
Now let's talk about octave up. I'm really a noob about this, but my memory is that I've only seen octave effects that were part of and relied on harmonics generated by distortion to create the additional pitches. Does anyone know of an analog octave effect that doesn't involve "fuzz"?
not that i'm aware of - it's fuzz or cmos square waves - but with heavy filtering and the smearing of feeding it thru a verb along with the proposed modulation (vcf and/or vca?) it may not be such an issue depending on mix and desired effect. i would suggest a single pt2339 delay before the reverb and processing that signal before 'verbing it.
*edit* mark hammers woody circuit came up recently - could be worth a look re: processing the 'excited' signal instead of or with the octave?
I wonder if this IC can be used for the "octave"
http://www.sdiy.org/colbecklabs/spec_sheets/8950.pdf
This IC shifts the pitch. We all know how glitch octave pedals can be. It has be something stable or it's going to sound like Shite!
It's no surprise that Mooer makes a reverb pedal (Shimverb) with "shimmer" because they seem to have the pitch shift thing down and in a small package!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZhM21M8JGE
stumbled upon mooer earlier - not heard of them before. these micro pedals are getting scary good and cheap! http://www.tcelectronic.com/ditto-looper/
Quote from: Jdansti on June 29, 2013, 05:56:51 PM
Now let's talk about octave up. I'm really a noob about this, but my memory is that I've only seen octave effects that were part of and relied on harmonics generated by distortion to create the additional pitches. Does anyone know of an analog octave effect that doesn't involve "fuzz"?
With analog octave up pedals, it's not that they rely on a fuzz, per se, but that they get the octave up by using full wave rectification, which itself creates distortion. Such effects are usually attached to fuzzes because they're not going to sound clean anyway. Plus, all the boosting reduces the gating effects of the diodes involved.
The problem with that arrangement in this context is that it's only an octave up for single notes. For chords, it's just a pitchless mess. Digital ICs can solve this through the use of sampling. I don't think analog octave up will get this project off the ground.
Quote from: Keppy on June 29, 2013, 08:11:41 PM
For chords, it's just a pitchless mess.
we can just sell that in the blurb as 'harmonic content'
Quote from: artifus on June 29, 2013, 08:17:04 PM
Quote from: Keppy on June 29, 2013, 08:11:41 PM
For chords, it's just a pitchless mess.
we can just sell that in the blurb as 'harmonic content'
Yeah, 'cause that sounds better than "white noise." ;)
I say we pool our resources, (cash) purchase a Mooer pitch shift, reverse engineer it, and implement the technology in reverb shimmer effects and octave pedals!
I don't feel like thinking right now! :icon_twisted:
^.... Or just learn to program the FV-1
where's the fun in that? http://www.spinsemi.com/knowledge_base/demo_board.html
Quote from: artifus on June 29, 2013, 09:49:49 PM
where's the fun in that? http://www.spinsemi.com/knowledge_base/demo_board.html
I'm not above learning some programming... $13 for a chip I'm going to learn how to program feels a bit bad but I might throw some money at it and see what sticks...
In the mean time what other way could the effect of shimmering be simulated , without using octaves, since I'm not sure everyone would want to learn the programming stuff.
Is there a way to "fake" or "Fudge" the octave effect that would be close enough for our needs of a mostly clean trailing reverb effect?
Quote from: Ark Angel HFB on June 29, 2013, 10:25:35 PM
Is there a way to "fake" or "Fudge" the octave effect that would be close enough for our needs of a mostly clean trailing reverb effect?
yes. search forum for cmos. 4046, 4017, 4040, 4077, etc.
Quote from: mth5044 on June 29, 2013, 09:48:51 PM
^.... Or just learn to program the FV-1
I'll follow your lead! :icon_lol:
Quote from: armdnrdy on June 30, 2013, 12:22:13 AM
Quote from: mth5044 on June 29, 2013, 09:48:51 PM
^.... Or just learn to program the FV-1
I'll follow your lead! :icon_lol:
Honestly if the chip was closer to $10 than $20 it would be much more appealing... Still it is really flexible.
I suppose I need to learn to program at some point... but I wanted to do the shimmer effect with simple stuff that everyone could do easy...
Maybe a reverb into that the highs alone were separated and slightly modulated in some way would work for a shimmer effect.
Quote from: Ark Angel HFB on June 30, 2013, 01:17:56 AM
Maybe a reverb into that the highs alone were separated and slightly modulated in some way would work for a shimmer effect.
I had that same thought :icon_idea: but then I took a listen to the Shimverb on YouTube to refresh my memory to what "shimmer" sounded like.
If you want that effect....it's an octave or in some shimmer capable effects it's a fifth. IMO the octave sounds much better.
We can try mixing in modulation to see if it sounds good. We don't even have to build the whole effect. Those of us who have reverb builds can either breadboard the LFO section or build a small daughter board for test purposes.
Quote from: armdnrdy on June 30, 2013, 02:44:04 AM
Quote from: Ark Angel HFB on June 30, 2013, 01:17:56 AM
Maybe a reverb into that the highs alone were separated and slightly modulated in some way would work for a shimmer effect.
I had that same thought :icon_idea: but then I took a listen to the Shimverb on YouTube to refresh my memory to what "shimmer" sounded like.
If you want that effect....it's an octave or in some shimmer capable effects it's a fifth. IMO the octave sounds much better.
We can try mixing in modulation to see if it sounds good. We don't even have to build the whole effect. Those of us who have reverb builds can either breadboard the LFO section or build a small daughter board for test purposes.
I completely agree with you on the octave sounding better than the fifth...
I'd like this project to be as cheap as possible so as many people as possible can build one. The FV-1 is a sure solution... but it cost as much on it's own as making a whole pedal does... which for a lot of people i a turn off. I don't care if this is pure analog ... I mean PT2399 are not analog but they are simple enough that for delays/modulations people can just jump in and try projects with them... I'd like to see if we can do something like that.
Octaves are just "relative hertz" right?
The money question is... "Is there a cheap way to cheat and have a chip double the hertz of whatever signal it is fed?"
By my understanding octaves are relative. As long as the chip doubles the hertz it would be moving the signal up one octave.
Ok @#%$ it here is my full tinfoil hat idea. I'm sure something is wrong with this idea but I'm not sure about what it is...
Would it be possible to use Fullwave, AND Negative full wave, Rectification to create an audio wave that did not have a distorted sound but was 1 octave higher.
Full-wave Rectify the signal... (This doubles the frequency which means it has been raised 1 octave like we want)... Then split the signal... Negative Full-wave Rectify one of the two signals... Delay the Negative Wave signal a bit... Then blend it with the Positive wave signal to form a signal that was 1 octave higher, but not distorted sounding due to having both positive and negative wave forms.
The only problem with the above is that if the delay time of the Negative wave signal is fixed... certain frequencies will be out of phase as the negative and positive wave forms will sync up and cancel each other out.
Still I think the delay time could be tuned so that the canceled frequencies were not greatly missed. Plus the reverb being "in and out" of phase in certain areas could give the reverb a certain movement that might be really really nice.
Well... Did I go full retard or does this have a chance at working?
Shimmer reverb on the FV-1's been done.
http://www.spinsemi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=144
I have been learning how to program this chip for about 6 months and all I can say is that it's an investment. I don't know what background other people using this chip have, but I got my EE degree 30 years ago and it required some really aggressive cobweb dusting. And I'm not done yet!
Quote from: Digital Larry on June 30, 2013, 08:56:06 AM
Shimmer reverb on the FV-1's been done.
http://www.spinsemi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=144
I have been learning how to program this chip for about 6 months and all I can say is that it's an investment. I don't know what background other people using this chip have, but I got my EE degree 30 years ago and it required some really aggressive cobweb dusting. And I'm not done yet!
Not to sound like a git but I was kinda hoping as a community we could find a way to do something similar to the shimmer effect without using a $20 chip... >_>.
Still.... it is good to know that there is a working option... even if it is really pricey.
Use one of those multiplier ICs. They often get used in ring modulators. If you feed the same signal to both ports you should get an octave up.
Quote from: armdnrdy on June 30, 2013, 12:22:13 AM
Quote from: mth5044 on June 29, 2013, 09:48:51 PM
^.... Or just learn to program the FV-1
I'll follow your lead! :icon_lol:
:icon_lol: I can't say I haven't tried already. It was way over my head at the time. I started over with PICAXE and it's going pretty well so far.
I only mentioned the FV-1 because I had always postulated that that's what all the Mooer pedals are based on as IIRC most, if not all, of their pedals are 3-knob effects that are not far from preprogrammed stuff offered by the SpinSemi dudes.
Quote from: Ark Angel HFB on June 30, 2013, 08:48:17 AM
Ok @#%$ it here is my full tinfoil hat idea. I'm sure something is wrong with this idea but I'm not sure about what it is...
Would it be possible to use Fullwave, AND Negative full wave, Rectification to create an audio wave that did not have a distorted sound but was 1 octave higher.
Full-wave Rectify the signal... Then split it... Negative Full-wave Rectify one of the signals... Delay the Negative Wave signal a bit... Then blend it with the Positive wave signal to form a signal that was 1 octave higher, but not distorted sounding due to having both positive and negative wave forms.
The only problem with the above is that if the delay time of the Negative wave signal is fixed... certain frequencies will be out of phase as the negative and positive wave forms will sync up and cancel each other out.
Still I think the delay time could be tuned so that the canceled frequencies were not commonly played notes. Plus the reverb being "in and out" of phase in certain areas could give the reverb a certain movement that might be really really nice.
Well... Did I go full retard or does this have a chance at working?
I wonder if this would alter the frequency or the amplitude.
Quote from: Jdansti on June 30, 2013, 02:22:40 PM
I wonder if this would alter the frequency or the amplitude.
My thoughts on it were...
Full wave rectification on an audio signal will double the frequency by turning the negative wave form into positive wave form. Doubling the frequency means the Pitch will be raised 1 octave.
The draw back is that the sound would become distorted sounding due to the lack of a negative wave form. (This would sound like really harsh asymmetrical diode clipping.. because it would be.)
The solution would be to add a negative wave form back to the positive to restore the wave to a more natural form.
However, if a "negative full-wave-rectified" signal was add right back in... the phase would be perfect 180
o to the positive and the two signals, like two perfectly crashing waves would completely cancel each other... leaving almost silence.
The solution is to delay the "negative-full-wave-rectified" signal just slightly so that for most of the fundamental frequencies of notes, the "negative full-wave-rectification" would be Peeking in the gap between the peeks of the "Positive full-wave-rectification".
compared to the first signal, our ears would hear the new signal as a true wave, with both positive and negative, that was at double the frequency... Meaning a non-distorted, 1 octave higher signal... Which as far as I can tell is exactly what we want.
Quote from: WaveshapeIllusions on June 30, 2013, 01:11:53 PM
Use one of those multiplier ICs. They often get used in ring modulators. If you feed the same signal to both ports you should get an octave up.
I think this is WAY more promising than a FWR. In fact, you don't even need a multiplier IC, you can use a 13700 by running the input signal to the bias pin, though it's a bit noisy. The trick with turning these chips into multipliers is getting the nulling right to eliminate bleed of the two signals being multiplied, but bleed probably isn't a concern here.
Um, my workshop still isn't set up since my move, so I humbly request that someone else try this out. :icon_redface:
Oh, and since that leaves the other half of the IC unused... How about two octaves? :D
Can you draw up the idea you have?
I'll try anything three times! ::)
Quote from: Keppy on June 30, 2013, 03:10:01 PM
Quote from: WaveshapeIllusions on June 30, 2013, 01:11:53 PM
Use one of those multiplier ICs. They often get used in ring modulators. If you feed the same signal to both ports you should get an octave up.
I think this is WAY more promising than a FWR. In fact, you don't even need a multiplier IC, you can use a 13700 by running the input signal to the bias pin, though it's a bit noisy. The trick with turning these chips into multipliers is getting the nulling right to eliminate bleed of the two signals being multiplied, but bleed probably isn't a concern here.
Um, my workshop still isn't set up since my move, so I humbly request that someone else try this out. :icon_redface:
Oh, and since that leaves the other half of the IC unused... How about two octaves? :D
I have tried using both OTAs and muiltiplier ICs (AD632) to do octave up. They work, but you still have horrible intermodulation distortion, so when playing multiple notes at once you gets a real mess. I think there is a reason why there is no popular DIY clean octave up - it can't be done analogue in a reasonable way. However, it might not matter in a reverb if everything gets smeared out enough, and in this case, I would use a simple precision rectifier, which you can do with a dual op-amp, a couple of diodes, and change.
I'm down for trying stuff if you guys will draw something up... Pic help the noobs... I mean I don't need the drawing... but...
T_T... ok I need the drawing I have no clue what the hell I'm doing.
Based on this circuit from the LM13700 datasheet:
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=49336&g2_serialNumber=1)
Here's a modified 9v version:
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=49340&g2_serialNumber=1)
If it seems promising, values can be tinkered with. Raising R3 will increase the volume, reducing apparent hiss. There should be some headroom there as the datasheet circuit is intended for line-level devices. R7 can be adjusted to get 4.5v on the buffer output for max headroom. R8 isn't really needed on the breadboard, it's an antipop resistor I didn't think to remove (I modified a previous circuit drawing to save time, hence the odd component numbering). Good luck!
Oh, and I forgot to mention that R21 controls the amount of modulation AND the gain of the effect. If it seems to be working, we'll change that to get a modulation control that doesn't affect the overall gain.
For a full wave rectifier, pick one from this page:
http://sound.westhost.com/appnotes/an001.htm
Just keep in mind those schems assume a bipolar supply, so any ground arrows connected to the signal path should actually be connected to 4.5v.
Is the LM13600N at the being used as a buffer? If so then I'd stile need to split the signal and get a Phase inverter to give me a negative wave form to be mixed back in with the Positive.
So I'm looking for a "phase inverter" circuit and what walks it way into this project... Tubes... Tubes baby... :icon_rolleyes:
No but honestly what is a good way to invert the phase after it has been rectified?
From there I just need to find a way to delay the phase inverted signal 5ms to 10ms and I will have the 1 Octave higher non-distortion effect.
Hey guys,
I built the deadastronaut reverb, you may have seen my demo video of it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhRVwDS6ios
Its a fantastic sounding reverb. Top notch.
Reading through this thread i had an idea. Now, you will have to excuse my non-EE approach here, I was just thinking 'modular' i guess. Couldnt you just make a wet only output (additional output) and send it to, something like the madbean lowrider (clean octave up / down) and then back to the reverb again? I was thinking of something like a send / return on the reverb. THe low riders got HEAPS of options as well, you would really be able to tweak the shimmer effect. You coould also make a volume control to control the overall level of the shimmer.
Probably some fundametnal problem with this idea, like i said, im no EE, just thought if it worked, could be a relatively simple implementation. You'd just have to mod the deadastronaut reverb to have send/return! Thats where you guys come into :D
Paul
Quote from: chromesphere on June 30, 2013, 10:31:59 PM
Hey guys,
I built the deadastronaut reverb, you may have seen my demo video of it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhRVwDS6ios
Its a fantastic sounding reverb. Top notch.
Reading through this thread i had an idea. Now, you will have to excuse my non-EE approach here, I was just thinking 'modular' i guess. Couldnt you just make a wet only output (additional output) and send it to, something like the madbean lowrider (clean octave up / down) and then back to the reverb again? I was thinking of something like a send / return on the reverb. THe low riders got HEAPS of options as well, you would really be able to tweak the shimmer effect. You coould also make a volume control to control the overall level of the shimmer.
Probably some fundametnal problem with this idea, like i said, im no EE, just thought if it worked, could be a relatively simple implementation. You'd just have to mod the deadastronaut reverb to have send/return! Thats where you guys come into :D
Paul
The only thing I can see as a problem would be that the octave up on the Lowrider is clean at all... it sounds like the signal is being clipped. which is what I'm trying to avoid with the phase inverter and recombining negative wave and positive.
Not to get side tracked but... On the topic of the "Dead Astronaut" sounds really really nice... Why not build it in a bigger box... and sub out the toggle switch controlling the oscillation for a momentary footswitch... that was as you are playing you can step on the footswitch and hold it down for as long as you want the effect.
The low rider sounded pretty clean to me, but i may be mistaken. Only so much you can tell from an audio clip on youtube. Interested to so what you come with Ark!
When i put the reverb in the BB i was actually using a bigger then recommended enclousure :) Most people are building them in B size, im glad i didnt though as with the mods it probably wouldnt have fit.
Paul
Well, the issue with standard full wave rectification is the crossover distortion. The threshold voltage for the diodes leaves gaps between the negative and positive peaks. It shows up as a kink in the zero-crossing region and sounds rather unpleasant. The lack of a negative side could be solved by a series capacitor, which will remove any DC offset and center it around 0V. It will still be assymetric however. The crossover distortion issue can be solved by using a precision rectifier as Keppy mentioned. There will still probably be intermodulation, but there will always be intermodulation. :D In this case it shouldn't be as bad.
Another idea is the doubler circuits offered by RG. He drew up a JFET doubler and a MOSFET doubler. I think Tim Escobedo made a similar one with BJTs. They basically cancel the input and use the 2nd harmonic distortion of the devices to create the octave up effect. The downside with this is that intermodulation will probably be very bad.
Someone earlier suggested using part of Mark Hammer's Woody circuit. I think that could add a nice sound to it. Perhaps we could still add the octave up, in between the high pass sections. High pass before the octave up, somewhere around 160 Hz to lower the fundamental a bit, just a gentle rolloff. After the octave, a heavier highpass (4-pole, more?) at the same point to cut out low frequency content and any difference frequencies. Possibly a bit of clipping, or another gentle highpass at 240 Hz. Then reverb.
Quote from: Ark Angel HFB on June 30, 2013, 10:08:19 PM
Is the LM13600N at the being used as a buffer? If so then I'd stile need to split the signal and get a Phase inverter to give me a negative wave form to be mixed back in with the Positive.
No but honestly what is a good way to invert the phase after it has been rectified?
The 13600/13700-based schems I posted are not rectifiers, they are multipliers. I posted a link with several opamp-based rectifiers to choose from.
Quote from: Keppy on June 30, 2013, 11:42:02 PM
The 13600/13700-based schems I posted are not rectifiers, they are multipliers. I posted a link with several opamp-based rectifiers to choose from.
Thanks for the help... Sorry for the confusion.
So they will multiply will bring the pitch up 1 octave. Will the multiplier still leave the signal clean?
buy a cheapo behringer pitch shiftter and graft it onto the reverb. ;D...
all the diy octaves ive heard have bee naff imo..
the low rider isn't too bad though...best diy one ive heard so far....
interested to see what you guys come up with... 8)
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i215/Ark-Angel-H-F-B/OctaveIdea_zps00afabbc.png
Here is a Vero for the multiplier if anyone wants to give it a shot.
Don't forget to connect the IC's to 9v+ and GND. Also I believe there are a few mistakes - pin 1 of the 13600 connects to a 10k resistor that is also on the same strip as pin 4 of the TL072, which needs to be grounded. The other end of that resistors needs to go to pin 1 or the opamp chip. You need a 10k resistor from Vb to pin 5 of the 13600. I think you may have tried to do this around pin 1 of TL072 but it's a bit hard to decipher. Unless I'm totally missing something, but it's easier to look at layouts when you have the components a little transparent so we can see were cuts and jumpers are under components.
Quote from: mth5044 on July 01, 2013, 09:33:40 AM
Don't forget to connect the IC's to 9v+ and GND. Also I believe there are a few mistakes - pin 1 of the 13600 connects to a 10k resistor that is also on the same strip as pin 4 of the TL072, which needs to be grounded. The other end of that resistors needs to go to pin 1 or the opamp chip. You need a 10k resistor from Vb to pin 5 of the 13600. I think you may have tried to do this around pin 1 of TL072 but it's a bit hard to decipher. Unless I'm totally missing something, but it's easier to look at layouts when you have the components a little transparent so we can see were cuts and jumpers are under components.
Sorry I'm a bit of a noob so I followed the schematic exactly... I did make a one mistake with the pin 5 to 7 jumper. Everything should be fixed now.
Pin 4 of the TL072 is now grounded. Pin 6 of the LM13600 is now grounded. Actually saved a column doing this.
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i215/Ark-Angel-H-F-B/1octaveclean_zpsd851d1fb.png) (http://s73.photobucket.com/user/Ark-Angel-H-F-B/media/1octaveclean_zpsd851d1fb.png.html)
I didn't check over the entire layout yet, but the TL072 is still not connected to +9v ( pin 8 )
(http://www.lambertsound.com/images/TL072_pins.bmp)
Edit: pin 8 not pin 8) haha
How about this one I made earlier, theres more to this than the shimmerverb and I can easily fit it into a 1590b enclosure.
Sound clip is of one setting of the shimmer. You will need to click the url as on this forum I can't seem to post a video in the normal way.
http://s90.photobucket.com/user/lenny1dog/media/shimmerverb_zps2bbc4a96.mp4.html
Its a project I am working on to release on the forums when It's finished but will happily post it as it is now if anyone wants to look at it.
Mick,
Not a whole lot excites me....That sounds fXXXXXG great!!!!!
Please release that!
What technology is inside that little beast?
It sounds like you stuffed a violinist........ (a pretty female one) inside that box!
Quote from: armdnrdy on July 01, 2013, 04:31:33 PM
Mick,
Not a whole lot excites me....That sounds fXXXXXG great!!!!!
Please release that!
What technology is inside that little beast?
It sounds like you stuffed a violinist........ (a pretty female one) inside that box!
It can do anything really, the audio path is only '-input buffer - FV1 chip - output buffer- ' the whole circuit is through hole components except for 2 chips which are SMD and very easy to solder up.
1590b version in this picture , single sided pcb.
(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k243/lenny1dog/6c512a4a-05fa-412f-9f19-fababb15c814_zps1026baa8.jpg) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/lenny1dog/media/6c512a4a-05fa-412f-9f19-fababb15c814_zps1026baa8.jpg.html)
Did you accomplish that with the "stock" IC or did you have to program it?
Quote from: armdnrdy on July 01, 2013, 04:39:58 PM
Did you accomplish that with the "stock" IC or did you have to program it?
^
No but really... that sounds awesome... I guess it is time to look more seriously at the FV-1.
Quote from: Ark Angel HFB on July 01, 2013, 04:45:50 PM
Quote from: armdnrdy on July 01, 2013, 04:39:58 PM
Did you accomplish that with the "stock" IC or did you have to program it?
^ ^ ^
No that program is loaded on an Eeprom, which I got from the Spin FV-1 website/ forum (there are lots of people on there developing free to use programs also). The pedal I made can have the Eeprom programmed with 8 different effects, direct to the pedal from the PC.
Quote from: Ice-9 on July 01, 2013, 04:51:43 PM
Quote from: Ark Angel HFB on July 01, 2013, 04:45:50 PM
Quote from: armdnrdy on July 01, 2013, 04:39:58 PM
Did you accomplish that with the "stock" IC or did you have to program it?
^ ^ ^
No that program is loaded on an Eeprom, which I got from the Spin FV-1 website/ forum (there are lots of people on there developing free to use programs also). The pedal I made can have the Eeprom programmed with 8 different effects, direct to the pedal from the PC.
How much is an Eeprom... and is there a way to program stuff yourself?
And can this FV-1 handle tap tempo...
Lastly, does it make coffee? I could use a cup.
Where do I sign up for the free coffee maker?.....uuh I mean please post details/links.
Quote from: Ark Angel HFB on July 01, 2013, 04:54:16 PM
Quote from: Ice-9 on July 01, 2013, 04:51:43 PM
Quote from: Ark Angel HFB on July 01, 2013, 04:45:50 PM
Quote from: armdnrdy on July 01, 2013, 04:39:58 PM
Did you accomplish that with the "stock" IC or did you have to program it?
^ ^ ^
No that program is loaded on an Eeprom, which I got from the Spin FV-1 website/ forum (there are lots of people on there developing free to use programs also). The pedal I made can have the Eeprom programmed with 8 different effects, direct to the pedal from the PC.
How much is an Eeprom... and is there a way to program stuff yourself?
And can this FV-1 handle tap tempo...
Lastly, does it make coffee? I could use a cup.
1.The Eeproms are about 40p and are available as 8pin SMD or through hole (24lc32a)
2.That effect in the video if you look closely at the left pot has markings that are notes, and they are settings for the tap tempo delay, set up as 1/4 notes triplets and dotted note tempo's (Ian , better known as Slacker wrote the tap tempo code)
3. I'm working on the coffee bit. I could probs get it to sound like it was making coffee though.
So what your saying is that you have your pedal designed to where you can "install" other programs in the FV-1 while soldered to the circuit board in the pedal?
Excuse me for on this subject I am completely ignorant but willing to learn.
from your last post I see that Ian isn't quite the slacker after all!
Quote from: armdnrdy on July 01, 2013, 05:03:18 PM
So what your saying is that you have your pedal designed to where you can "install" other programs in the FV-1 while soldered to the circuit board in the pedal?
Excuse me for on this subject I am completely ignorant but willing to learn.
from your last post I see that Ian isn't quite the slacker after all!
Yes that's correct. I just plug my pedal into the lead to my pc to reprogram the Eeprom to do whatever 8 effects I choose to use, it could have 8 different reverbs in then I could change it to do wah and distortion or chorus or any combination of choice. The Fv-1 is a wonderful IC.
Well....
What are you waiting for!
Finish it up and post a project!!
It sounds great really!! Very impressive!
We were all sitting around here trying to figure out how to slop a coat of audio paint on a rock to turn it into the all divine frequency emitting crystal!
I just googled FV-1 octave pedal. IT DOES UP AND DOWN OCTAVES AS WELL!
I'm sorry but analog octave pedals are weak! They are always glitchy!
Quote from: Ice-9 on July 01, 2013, 05:09:25 PM
Yes that's correct. I just plug my pedal into the lead to my pc to reprogram the Eeprom to do whatever 8 effects I choose to use, it could have 8 different reverbs in then I could change it to do wah and distortion or chorus or any combination of choice. The Fv-1 is a wonderful IC.
Wait... <_<... >_>... Are you saying that the same circuit works fine for a bunch of different circuits?
And how hard is it to plug in? like how much does it cost to make a pedal like this?
Quote from: armdnrdy on July 01, 2013, 05:16:20 PM
Well....
What are you waiting for!
Finish it up and post a project!!
It sounds great really!! Very impressive!
We were all sitting around here trying to figure out how to slop a coat of audio paint on a rock to turn it into the all divine frequency emitting crystal!
I will collect all my schematics and pcbs together and post all the needed details in a day or two, will try and do a few different sound clips as well, I also want to post this stuff on other forums I use at the same time so that everyone has a good chance to play with it.
There is also a program being developed by Digital Larry called SpinCad which aims to generate code from drag and drop type blocks, check it out.
Looking forward to it!
I just downloaded the FV-1 data sheet and am giving it a once over.
It probably won't be too long before I'm writing code for this thing........Right around the time when humans are born with flippers and return to the sea!
Thanks Mick for bringing the FV-1 upfront again. Seriously, I had heard a few things that a FV-1 based pedal could do but wasn't that impressed.
Many analog pedals can do these things but....the FV-1 can definitely do a few things very well that an analog pedal fails at.
Quote from: armdnrdy on July 01, 2013, 05:38:00 PM
Looking forward to it!
I just downloaded the FV-1 data sheet and am giving it a once over.
It probably won't be too long before I'm writing code for this thing........Right around the time when humans are born with flippers and return to the sea!
Thanks Mick for bringing the FV-1 upfront again. Seriously, I had heard a few things that a FV-1 based pedal could do but wasn't that impressed.
Many analog pedals can do these things but....the FV-1 can definitely do a few things very well that an analog pedal fails at.
So far from what I can tell this Chip will bring the more sought after effect to us on a platter.
Tap tempo, multi-styled modulation, complex filters... this thing can do them all... and store information for multiple effect at the same time...
I guess the next thing to look into would be how to make the circuit and pedal as cheap as possible and then to make a Project-kit for everyone on here. When we get something easy down I'll update the OP with a B.o.M. and links to the other forum.
Ok here is the schematic of the pedal in full.
a quick breakdown of the circuit is this,
input/ and output buffers are based around the dual op amp chip.
there are 3 other IC's in this, the first being the FV-1, thesecond IC is the programable Eeprom 24lc32a.
The 3rd IC is optional and can be replaced by a 3 bit binary switch. Either of these can be used to select the 8 patches or programs. The IC is an 8 pin PIC used to generate the 3 bit code needed to switch programs and is controlled by a normal potentiometer.
Schemtic
(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k243/lenny1dog/wingnutmultifx_zps60a11924.png) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/lenny1dog/media/wingnutmultifx_zps60a11924.png.html)
I will post more info when I manage to track all the files on my HD.
The "show original" photobucket link doesn't work. I can only download lo res unreadable copies.
I don't know if you fixed it but after three attempts and a cigarette break it worked!
Question:
Who sells the FV-1 besides Small Bear?
I like to have more options when I'm purchasing components. It seems more often than not, when buying components, one supplier doesn't stock everything that I need.
@mick:
f....g hell..that clip sounds great....8 effects in one box sounds awesome...good work man. :icon_cool:
i guess its the same as ians 'babelfish pedal' which i'm surprised didn't win the 'turkey day comp'..
anyway..
how is it linked to the pc to change programmes?...usb socket?
very very interested in this, but have no programming experience whatsoever.... ::)
cheers man, my eyes and ears have been truly opened... :icon_cool:
Quote from: deadastronaut on July 02, 2013, 04:49:07 AM
@mick:
f....g hell..that clip sounds great....8 effects in one box sounds awesome...good work man. :icon_cool:
i guess its the same as ians 'babelfish pedal' which i'm surprised didn't win the 'turkey day comp'..
anyway..
how is it linked to the pc to change programmes?...usb socket?
very very interested in this, but have no programming experience whatsoever.... ::)
cheers man, my eyes and ears have been truly opened... :icon_cool:
@Deadastronaught, Yeah it's very similar to Ian's Babelfish and was designed around the same time under many different variations on this very forum. I have 2 versions to show one is in a 1590b while the other fits a 1590bb which makes room for a second footswitch which can be used with the tap tempo code Ian made. As for similarities there isn't much to change around the FV-1 as all that is needed is input buffer/FV-1/output buffer so most FV-1 designs are very similar.
Linking to the PC can be done in different ways, obviously the Eeprom has to be programmed using some sort of programmer. I am using a USB Microchip Pickit2 and the software to flash. It only needs 3 connections to the pedal. The other way is via a com port if you still have a computer with one of those and a lead can be made up to connect directly to the onboard Eeprom using a couple of resistors and diodes. (it is worth the £20 for the pickit though as it makes life easy for programming many PIC chips and Eeproms in circuit).
Once I get all the relevant files together I will try and PDF a whole project to post, which I will post on all the relevant forums. Sorry but as most of the Dev has been done on circuitworkshop I will post there first but it should be posted everywhere the same day.
cool, nice one mick, that'll be brilliant. can't wait to get into those reverbs and delays, and pitch stuff...
very nice...look forward to the PDF,
btw what is the max delay/reverb time you can get out of it?.
At the recommended clock freq. 1 second is the max delay. I haven't tried this but I expect if both left and right chls of the FV-1 are hooked up in series then it should be easy to get 2 seconds of mono delay.
Here's some big building blocks for doing shimmer. Might give you some ideas:
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=41635&g2_serialNumber=2)
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=41633&g2_serialNumber=1 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=41633&g2_serialNumber=1)
You can also get a good shimmer with the "octo" setting of the Line 6 Verbzilla.
Quote from: Ark Angel HFB on July 01, 2013, 03:08:01 AM
Quote from: Keppy on June 30, 2013, 11:42:02 PM
The 13600/13700-based schems I posted are not rectifiers, they are multipliers. I posted a link with several opamp-based rectifiers to choose from.
Thanks for the help... Sorry for the confusion.
So they will multiply will bring the pitch up 1 octave. Will the multiplier still leave the signal clean?
Sorry, I was away from my computer for a day. The multiplier is clean with a single-frequency (sine) input, assuming it's properly adjusted for input level. I've used a similar design as a ring modulator, and it was pretty clean with complex input, but that was with an oscillator controlling the modulation, not a guitar signal. Not sure what results we'd get here. Definitely one to breadboard before committing to a build.
Also, sorry I didn't indicate the power supply connections on the ICs. :icon_redface: I was doing a quick job, and I didn't expect anyone to make a vero before breadboarding it.
Quote from: samhay on June 30, 2013, 03:33:24 PM
I have tried using both OTAs and muiltiplier ICs (AD632) to do octave up. They work, but you still have horrible intermodulation distortion, so when playing multiple notes at once you gets a real mess.
Thanks for the info. This would be another reason to breadboard first. The tinkerer in me still has hopes for the design, though. Guess I'll have to learn the hard way. :D
Quote from: Keppy on July 02, 2013, 08:00:32 PM
Sorry, I was away from my computer for a day. The multiplier is clean with a single-frequency (sine) input, assuming it's properly adjusted for input level. I've used a similar design as a ring modulator, and it was pretty clean with complex input, but that was with an oscillator controlling the modulation, not a guitar signal. Not sure what results we'd get here. Definitely one to breadboard before committing to a build.
Also, sorry I didn't indicate the power supply connections on the ICs. :icon_redface: I was doing a quick job, and I didn't expect anyone to make a vero before breadboarding it.
Not a big deal... I don't own a bread board. (I know I know stop throwing fruit, I need to buy one...)
I'm lack experience with pretty much all IC's so Just like not having the footswitch in a circuit... not including the powering of the IC was probably reasonable to assume whoever made the Vero would know to power it. So really just my bad.
I've fixed the vero... err... again. Here is the correct one. Both ICs Grounded and Powered...
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i215/Ark-Angel-H-F-B/CleanoctaveIdea_zps7044699f.png) (http://s73.photobucket.com/user/Ark-Angel-H-F-B/media/CleanoctaveIdea_zps7044699f.png.html)
Regarding the FV-1, which I think is now potentially my favorite thing ever...
Would This, http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Microchip-Technology/24LC32A-I-P/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuVhdAcoizlRWkyOXLsk1dxCWB753xiYh8%3d work as the 24lc32a? It is through hole so could be socket'd and that might make programming easier maybe?
Yeah that will work fine. They can be easily programmed using your PC's serial port and some free software. I'll post a link on how to do it later. If you don't have a serial port you can use a USB to serial cable, these only cost a couple of $.
Quote from: slacker on July 10, 2013, 12:04:05 PM
I'll post a link on how to do it later.
Please do!
I recently signed up to the Spin Semiconductor forum and have read some of your posts. Very impressive stuff!
I have a great interest in utilizing the FV-1 for certain builds but have no idea where to start.
Any help would definitely be appreciated!
Quote from: armdnrdy on July 10, 2013, 12:15:29 PM
Quote from: slacker on July 10, 2013, 12:04:05 PM
I'll post a link on how to do it later.
Please do!
I recently signed up to the Spin Semiconductor forum and have read some of your posts. Very impressive stuff!
I have a great interest in utilizing the FV-1 for certain builds but have no idea where to start.
Any help would definitely be appreciated!
I'm in the same boat....
I have a buddy who is trying to get me to build him a tap tempo delay but he is low on cash... with this chip, I might be able to do it for him for a great deal less.
Here's the link http://www.spinsemi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=348 (http://www.spinsemi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=348). If you use a USB to serial convertor make sure it has connections to TXD, CTS, RTS and DTR. I'd guess the type that are a cable to an actual 9 pin D connector will have all these but you can also buy ones that just break the connections out to PCB headers, designed to talk to Arduinos and the like, and some of these don't provide all the connections.
Quote from: slacker on July 11, 2013, 03:02:35 AM
Here's the link http://www.spinsemi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=348 (http://www.spinsemi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=348). If you use a USB to serial convertor make sure it has connections to TXD, CTS, RTS and DTR. I'd guess the type that are a cable to an actual 9 pin D connector will have all these but you can also buy ones that just break the connections out to PCB headers, designed to talk to Arduinos and the like, and some of these don't provide all the connections.
Hey Slacker how you been..
Anyway I'm looking at the link and I see it was posted last September... but has no follow up on it.
1) Have you tried it since then?
2) Did it work?
3) would this work for the needs of programming eeprom? http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-Port-24CXX-EEPROM-Programmer-Reader-Writer-to-24C1024-for-XP-VISTA-WIN7-/300932129884?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4610f3e45c
Yeah it works, I never got round to trying to program the eeprom when attached to the FV-1 but for programming them on their own it works great. Using the serial port takes about 5 minutes, using the USB to serial cable I bought takes about half an hour. I deliberately bought the cheapest USB to serial cable I could find on Ebay, figuring if they worked then they all should, so better quality ones might be faster.
That thing you linked to looks like it should work, can't say for sure though. Another option that definitely works is the Microchip Pickit2, the newer pickit3 is no good though.
Quote from: armdnrdy on July 10, 2013, 12:15:29 PM
Quote from: slacker on July 10, 2013, 12:04:05 PM
I'll post a link on how to do it later.
Please do!
I have a great interest in utilizing the FV-1 for certain builds but have no idea where to start.
Any help would definitely be appreciated!
me too, i'd like to know what i would need e.g. a list of hardware/software/ to start messing with this amazing FV-1 stuff..
but with no knowledge whatsoever.....but i do have a soldering iron and a breadboard.. ;D
The easiest, though certainly not cheapest way to get started with the FV-1 is to buy their development board. It's more than $100! On the plus side it connects directly to your Windows PC on USB for programming. It has RCA in/out and needs a buffer to work well with guitar. Input impedance is about 100k ohms.
Next would be to get one of the SKRM modules (http://www.experimentalnoize.com/components/skrm-c8-xxx-reverb-effects-module/) from Experimental Noize (Spin's distributor). You'll have to mount this to a PCB (though I got mine working on Veroboard) and hook up some other stuff like an input buffer if you wish to hook it directly to guitar. To program it (which you'll need to do) you'll have to get something like a PICKit 2 programmer. I don't have this documented at this time but I'm pretty sure that echotapper documented it in the instructions for his FV-1 project (http://www.echotapper.nl/wp/).
For software, Spin offers a development environment, but in my opinion learning Spin ASM is very difficult.
Shameless plug dept.
Please check out my "SpinCAD Designer" FREE software (currently in beta; follow the link in my signature) which aims to make patch development for the FV-1 much easier. I'm working with slacker to add the tap tempo capability to this program.
So I looked into the thing on ebay that seemed promissing... this was the reply.
"sorry .it canont .thank you
May God bless you and your family
wish you have happy life !
have a great (nice) day
best regards
YAYA
honesty and trustworthiness "
With a response like that I'm almost sad I'm not buying something from these dudes. XD
DIY-SPIN-craze (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=50833.0) started here... (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?board=19.0)
no - sorry, missed it. nearly had a puretube post there - sorry guys. he's just so elusive!
Quote from: slacker on July 11, 2013, 03:02:35 AM
Here's the link http://www.spinsemi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=348 (http://www.spinsemi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=348). If you use a USB to serial convertor make sure it has connections to TXD, CTS, RTS and DTR. I'd guess the type that are a cable to an actual 9 pin D connector will have all these but you can also buy ones that just break the connections out to PCB headers, designed to talk to Arduinos and the like, and some of these don't provide all the connections.
I went ahead and made a vero for the programmer...
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i215/Ark-Angel-H-F-B/Programmer_zps53b88e12.png) (http://s73.photobucket.com/user/Ark-Angel-H-F-B/media/Programmer_zps53b88e12.png.html)
Thought I would post a picture here of the FV-1 i'm working on at the moment, I have had some pcb's fabbed to play with. I have left the pots off just so you can see the pcb properly, it is mono in/out with a std pot to control a pic chip for patch selection of the external Eeprom. The Eeprom can be programmed in situ so this can be used as a FV-1 dev tool as well. I am away for the weekend but will post a demo of it working when I get back, (I have it doing a great SHIMMER VERB which is what this thread is about).
(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k243/lenny1dog/IMG_0581_zpsd91f8f12.jpg) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/lenny1dog/media/IMG_0581_zpsd91f8f12.jpg.html)
superb..look forward to hearing this. 8)
Ok , I stuck some potentiometers on it and did a rough youtube vid, erm very rough !! Some work still to be done but has to be after the weekend as I'm off up to the lake district to ride some good roads on my motorcycle, so for now and is a little clip of it.
excuse my language..
that is f.... nice...
excellent work man. 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
GREAT JOB!
I looked all over the board and could not find where you hid the midget string section! ;D
Can't wait for the project files!!
Quote from: armdnrdy on August 30, 2013, 01:19:42 PM
GREAT JOB!
I looked all over the board and could not find where you hid the midget string section! ;D
Can't wait for the project files!!
Little nanobot dudes run around under those pots with there nano strings. I think. :icon_cool:
I will definitely get something posted after the weekend. There are 2 PCB's for this project, one of them is home etchable and singe sided, the other is the one I have had fabbed in the pictures. (use one or the other).
I also have all the pictures for the cheap photoresist PCB etching that I mentioned to you a couple of weeks ago as well. (I didn't forget, but my time management is useless).
Very nice Mick, looks like you'll beat me to the punch releasing an FV-1 design. Are you using my PIC code for the patch selection?
Quote from: slacker on August 30, 2013, 01:58:53 PM
Very nice Mick, looks like you'll beat me to the punch releasing an FV-1 design. Are you using my PIC code for the patch selection?
Hi Ian, Aye that code for the pic 12f683 you wrote is excellent, and I thank you for that. I notice that you used 'rrf new,w ;move 1 step to the right bits 5,6,7 now in positions 0,1,2' command to change the bit significance once over. I presume the rrf command be used again to set for 4 positions on the pot instead 8 etc.
I have put some pads on the pcb so that a toggle switch can be wired in instead of the pic chip. This way something like reverbs could be switched Room/hall/ plate or some other combination of effects.
Cool, yeah you could shift the bits to the right again to get 4 settings.
just curious, could it do a low octave shimmer too?.
Quote from: deadastronaut on August 30, 2013, 03:02:41 PM
just curious, could it do a low octave shimmer too?.
It would be possible to used a octave down shimmer as well but I think it would become inaudible very quickly, it could be worth trying out and see how it sounds.
Doesn't even have to be octaves, you could do fifths, thirds or whatever you like.
Neat... 8)
I have started a full project for the FV-1 (including shimmerverb) and have posted part one with info and schematics but will be posting more info later, just thought I would let everyone here know about it as it includes shimmer but will be much more as well.
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=104291.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=104291.0)
Quote from: deadastronaut on August 30, 2013, 03:02:41 PM
just curious, could it do a low octave shimmer too?.
A clean analog octave-down is much easier to produce than it's -up counterpart, especially if the octave-down sound is not a super prominent part of the total sound output of the effect. Check out the Boss OC3 and other analog octave-down schems... lots of relatively clean octave-downs out there.
I don't mean to attempt to divert this conversation, but can we consider bisecting this thread into two different threads?.. one regarding FV1- based reverb with octave/various-interval shimmers, and the other thread about trying to achieve the octave-up in the purely analog way? Although it's clear that the analog route is difficult and riddled with unwanted distortions and impurities I think there's still value in having a discussion about keeping things analog and pushing the boundaries of how clean we can make this thing. What do you guys think? I am really excited about the FV1, but maybe we can considering keeping FV1 DIY separate from analog DIY?
Either way, the designs in this thread are fantastic... thank you so much everyone who's contributed so far! Much love.
Hello, guys :D
I want so badly to make a shimmer, but can`t find schematics for it. Could anybody send me it to email or somehow? I can`t see pictures here, they seem to be deleted :icon_sad:. Thanks.