amazing what ya find on the internet archive.... uses a sad1024, but i bet it could be adapted... this was the stereo flanger zappa used,
that he claimed you could have flange "in either direction simultaneously for a real huge pillowy effect"...
standard caveats... schem probably has mistakes as many do, but hey, for coolness factor alone...
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/Dynaflanger_Tile1_zps746170d5.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/Dynaflanger_Tile2_zpse617f721.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/Dynaflanger_Tile3_zpsd1b20e18.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt137/pinkjimiphoton/Dynaflanger_Tile4_zps6bb38354.jpg)
anyone dare clone such a beast? and if ya do, will ya burn me a board? :icon_mrgreen:
Looks like the SAD1024 is being used in parallel. Not sure how much finagling it'll take to copy that section.
Saved all the info for a rainy day. I'm working on a GCB-95O right now, so the shorts are full. :icon_mrgreen:
The SAD's output pins 5 & 12 are going to the BBD output trimmer. (R119)
The SAD's other outputs 6 & 11 are tied somewhere else. (not to an output)
It looks like the SAD is set up for 512 stages.
This schematic is a pain to work through! Chopped in four pages....and instead of using power/ground connecting symbols, every connections is drawn as a line. My brain hurts! :icon_eek:
I'll have to look at this in more detail. I wonder how they achieve the simultaneous thang! ???
I looked a little closer...This isn't a stereo flanger. It has two outputs, balanced and unbalanced.
I wonder if Zappa used two of these units to get that "pillowy" effect.
beats the hell out of me, i am but an egg!!!
supposedly in stereo they would flange in different directions...ahh...reading, you need TWO of 'em i guess..
here's the manual:
http://www.ka-electronics.com/DynaFlanger/Dynaflanger_Manual.pdf
this thing is HIP... read the description about using two of them beginning on page 13 of the manual. i can see why frank would have dug them.
http://www.zappa.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1743
http://www.afka.net/articles/1983-07_Guitar_Player.htm
"How do you get the doubling effect on your guitar?
I use a device called a Mic-Mix Dyna-flanger. There are actually two of them being used at the same time. You see, the Dyna-flanger has an envelope follower built into it. So if you set one of them up to go sharp when the envelope is hit hard, and the other one to go flat when the envelope is hit hard, then you're going to get this doubling effect wherever there's an actual pitch discrepancy in the notes, and it really sounds like two instruments playing the same thing."
Ahhhh! :icon_wink:
That makes more sense now.
I never thought of using two flangers in a stereo set up. I wonder if you could achieve a TZF effect when they cross. ???
Where's Mark Hammer???
http://electro-music.com/forum/post-119009.html
Some interesting comments.
You know, I would have finished my as-yet-incomplete PAiA Hyperflange years ago had I not been distracted by the general topic of envelope control., and perusing how I would integrate it. In the meantime, the Line 6 Liqui-Flange pedal incorporated envelope control, and merely whetter my appetite for building in ALL the possibilities. Bleah; lost at the choice point. :icon_mad:
I had thought that Frank used the Wasatch Pro Flanger, and while the Wasatch unit has more bells and whistles than the usual of its day, it did not include on-board envelope-following and clearly it was NOT what Frank used.
Running two flangers "against" each other can provide some novel effects. I don't have envelope control, but I lifted the dry signal from each of my pair of Boss BF-1s, so thatthe two wet signals could be run "against" each other to achieve TZF. In this case, because the delay range can be adjusted with the Manual control, you can set it to achieve different amounts of time on "the other side of zero".
well, the important thing is, can we make this beast live? in stereo? with stuff we can still aquire?
cuz man, i'd go stereo again if i could get this kinda sound happening!!
dirk over at the pariah place said some info is missing from the edges of the schematics... it's so huge, i haven't checked..
so no idea if it's buildable as found.
Quote from: armdnrdy on September 25, 2013, 12:04:43 PM
The SAD's other outputs 6 & 11 are tied somewhere else. (not to an output)
Looks like outputs 6 & 11 are tied back to the +15V regulator. If I remember correctly, the SAD1024 datasheet specifies that any unused outputs are "supposed to be" tied to V+
greg, so that means you could use 1 512stage bbd correct? i wonder if it could be adapted to use something more common and easier to work with?
seems to me the envelope control part is the most interesting idea... but i am, again, but an egg!! :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on September 25, 2013, 02:01:06 PM
greg, so that means you could use 1 512stage bbd correct? i wonder if it could be adapted to use something more common and easier to work with?
seems to me the envelope control part is the most interesting idea... but i am, again, but an egg!! :icon_mrgreen:
It is a possibility Jimi BUT....
Not to many easy-to-get 512 stage BBDs either. Better luck would be had to just convert to an MN3007 and double the clock (if it is capable)
Not quite as advanced as the MicMIx, but still quite a bit above your usual flanger is this little Beast-from-the-East:
http://experimentalistsanonymous.com/diy/Schematics/OOP%20Japanese%20Electronics%20Book/multi-flanger.gif
http://experimentalistsanonymous.com/diy/Schematics/OOP%20Japanese%20Electronics%20Book/multi-flanger-pcb.gif
In this particular case, the circuit uses a 256-stage MN3009. While that can be pin-for-pin replaced with an MN3007, the MN3101 uses a 22pf clock cap. I don't know that a) chopping that by 4 to bring the delay range of the 3007 down to what a 3009 would get is likely to be stable or accurate, and b) whether the needed clock rate is even feasible by the 3101. So, unless you want a chorus with wads of modulation capabilities OR you have an MN3009 (or possibly MN3004), you're pretty much out of luck.
Or possibly a combination of that and a readable MXR Flanger Doubler!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/86xmhjp7l6n982m/Flanger%20Doubler%20600.gif
Wait a minute, I'm seeing fixed phase shift stages in the bottom picture, I'll have to put the pieces together but I think bits are missing.
Stephen,
In the Flanger Doubler I'm seeing a 22 pin CCD IC which I would be very interested in knowing what make and model it is!
I found a unclear gut shot on the net that looks like two Reticon ICs. SAD4096 and the 22 pin CCD.
Quote from: StephenGiles on September 26, 2013, 02:37:25 AM
Wait a minute, I'm seeing fixed phase shift stages in the bottom picture, I'll have to put the pieces together but I think bits are missing.
Interesting..... I can only determine four cascaded 12db/oct low-pass filters.
Quote from: analogguru on September 26, 2013, 03:21:57 AM
Quote from: StephenGiles on September 26, 2013, 02:37:25 AM
Wait a minute, I'm seeing fixed phase shift stages in the bottom picture, I'll have to put the pieces together but I think bits are missing.
Interesting..... I can only determine four cascaded 12db/oct low-pass filters.
I was looking on my Blackberry - rather small to these eyes!! Yes I can see now, thanks for pointing that out.
I found a higher resolution image of the Flanger doubler...Looks like a SAD1024 and a R5101. Talk about hen's teeth!
gonna be no hope of ressurrection for this beast, huh?
man... too bad some chinese manufacturers or something didn't bite the bullet and make a bunch of repro bbd's that work..
Quote from: armdnrdy on September 26, 2013, 10:48:36 AM
I found a higher resolution image of the Flanger doubler...Looks like a SAD1024 and a R5101. Talk about hen's teeth!
Is that the one you get if you google MXR Flanger Doubler with the hand written IC numbers?
Here is a very high resolution version of the Flanger Doubler - 12mb file
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4waiamy5s4ex2s9/MXR%20Flanger%20Doubler.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvok4jEH4hE
24:30
there is another dweez video , where he demos the actual units , i believe ... but that is a pretty good waste of 35 minutes on its own .
Quote from: StephenGiles on September 26, 2013, 01:55:01 PM
Quote from: armdnrdy on September 26, 2013, 10:48:36 AM
I found a higher resolution image of the Flanger doubler...Looks like a SAD1024 and a R5101. Talk about hen's teeth!
Is that the one you get if you google MXR Flanger Doubler with the hand written IC numbers?
Here is a very high resolution version of the Flanger Doubler - 12mb file
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4waiamy5s4ex2s9/MXR%20Flanger%20Doubler.jpg
Stephan,
I was referring to this image in which you can see many of the ICs. This is a resized version, the original is more clear.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53299166/DIYstompboxes/mxrflangerdoublerresiszed.jpg)
Is the WEM Infinite Flanger a hen's tooth contestant - 2 x MN3004!!
Quote from: StephenGiles on September 28, 2013, 11:29:40 AM
Is the WEM Infinite Flanger a hen's tooth contestant - 2 x MN3004!!
Stephen,
What puts the "WEM (Infinite) Hyper Flanger in the hen's tooth category is the fact that we do not know for certain where this circuit came from!
If you recall...I contacted Charlie Watkins (WEM) inquiring about this circuit. His response was "No. We never had such a thing"
I've searched the web very thoroughly and have not come up with a single clue to this circuits origin. The only thing I've found are references from you and the schematics that you posted.
I have a couple of MN3004s set aside for a crack at this when I get a few other projects out of the way. I just wish I could find a bit more information on the actual unit. A gut shot would be nice!
Do you still have your rack mount build? Any chance of a few pics? :icon_wink:
Frank also said that he had his set up so that the envelope followed the high-frequency part of the signal (i.e. highpass before envelope).
Quote from: armdnrdy on September 28, 2013, 12:30:06 PM
Quote from: StephenGiles on September 28, 2013, 11:29:40 AM
Is the WEM Infinite Flanger a hen's tooth contestant - 2 x MN3004!!
Stephen,
What puts the "WEM (Infinite) Hyper Flanger in the hen's tooth category is the fact that we do not know for certain where this circuit came from!
If you recall...I contacted Charlie Watkins (WEM) inquiring about this circuit. His response was "No. We never had such a thing"
I've searched the web very thoroughly and have not come up with a single clue to this circuits origin. The only thing I've found are references from you and the schematics that you posted.
I have a couple of MN3004s set aside for a crack at this when I get a few other projects out of the way. I just wish I could find a bit more information on the actual unit. A gut shot would be nice!
Do you still have your rack mount build? Any chance of a few pics? :icon_wink:
My rackmount build is in our attic somewhere, I'll have a look for it when I get a chance. My copy of the circuit does state - "WEM Hyperflanger" on 2 of the 3 sheets, and I got from the designer, Alan Bradford who was always very helpful. Now it may be of course that it never went into production. A Psychoacoustic Enhancer, Compressor and a Panner/Gate designed by the same man did go into production by a company with 3g in it's name based in Southend UK, or otherwise known as "London on Sea" !! There were articles published on all three units in Home & Studio Recording around 1988-89, but not for the Hyperflanger.
Stephen,
Thanks for the info.
Did you ever have a PCB layout for the Hyperflanger...or did you route your own board?
Do you recall if it was one board or two?
Since there are two clocks in two BBD sections, I would like to start down the right path when I attempt this build.
Quote from: armdnrdy on September 29, 2013, 10:39:01 AM
Stephen,
Thanks for the info.
Did you ever have a PCB layout for the Hyperflanger...or did you route your own board?
Do you recall if it was one board or two?
Since there are two clocks in two BBD sections, I would like to start down the right path when I attempt this build.
I bought a PBC from the designer - there was just one, and I think it was double sided to make matters worse!
Once again....
Thanks for the info!
I don't mind double sided boards. I've made a few.....with a little bit of trial and error. :icon_wink:
I'll have to keep the two clock/BBD sections short and well separated on opposite ends of the board, and use the other side of the board for a ground plane, power, and some signal traces if necessary.
Here are much better scans of the WEM Hyperflanger. As they are on A3 sheets, I had to scan one half at a time then join them in Photoshop - a bit fiddly!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yjluv0ttvdubaba/Hyperflanger%201.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tsp36m34fub83jj/Hyperflanger%202.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uyul6wyva589r80/Hyperflanger%203.jpg
Quote from: StephenGiles on September 29, 2013, 03:57:56 PM
Here are much better scans of the WEM Hyperflanger.
Thanks a lot Stephen!
I have three different copies I found by scouring the net....all from your posts.
These are by far the best!
I'll have to go through my redraw to double check a few things.
I have a feeling that the previous copies were taken with my old digital camera. I came accross my originals recently in a pile of papers which was inside my mixer box in our attic!
I'm curious ???
What else could be in that attic? :icon_eek:
Apart from a couple of re-coned 1961 Jensen Blue speakers I'd be surprised if there is much else of interest unfortunately, unless............... ::)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on September 25, 2013, 12:41:35 PM
http://www.zappa.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1743
Worth reading this thread as the person who claims to have designed it chimes in. Last post is 6 years ago, but he does offer some technical info.
atsawhy i posted de link, br'ah!!
The various envelope-follower modes can also be implemented with phasers if you think of it.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on September 25, 2013, 01:23:56 PM
dirk over at the pariah place said some info is missing from the edges of the schematics... it's so huge, i haven't checked..
so no idea if it's buildable as found.
I finally printed all four pages.....there are overlap sections that are cut off. It looks like it can be worked through but....there's the issue of no 512 stage BBDs readily available.
Here is a link to larger schematic files:
http://electro-music.com/forum/post-119009.html
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on September 25, 2013, 12:41:35 PM
"How do you get the doubling effect on your guitar?
I use a device called a Mic-Mix Dyna-flanger. There are actually two of them being used at the same time. You see, the Dyna-flanger has an envelope follower built into it. So if you set one of them up to go sharp when the envelope is hit hard, and the other one to go flat when the envelope is hit hard, then you're going to get this doubling effect wherever there's an actual pitch discrepancy in the notes, and it really sounds like two instruments playing the same thing."
I think he occasionally used a device known as "Steve Vai"... at least I read somewhere that little Stevie doubled all/some/most of FZ's solos on the "Shut Up 'n' Play Yer Guitar" series.
Quote from: StephenGiles on September 28, 2013, 04:45:25 PM
...... I got from the designer, Alan Bradford who was always very helpful.
We are getting closer.
Quote from: StephenGiles
Now it may be of course that it never went into production. A Psychoacoustic Enhancer, Compressor and a Panner/Gate designed by the same man did go into production by a company with 3g in it's name based in Southend UK, or otherwise known as "London on Sea" !!
Sorry, I don´t get it.... The mentioned units were sold by TIME MACHINE.
Quote from: StephenGiles
There were articles published on all three units in Home & Studio Recording around 1988-89, but not for the Hyperflanger.
Pro-Activator (Enhancer) : H&SR August 1988
Dual Noise Gate /Fader/ Panner : H&SR September 1988
Dual Compressor/ Expander Gate: H&SR November 1988
Wgy I know this ?
Because after seeing the supicious schematics of the "Wem" Hyperflanger I looked it up.... the drawings reminded me too much to the "Time Machine" schematics printed in H&SR.
analogguru - "Sorry, I don´t get it.... The mentioned units were sold by TIME MACHINE."
Not sure about that, I'll check my Dual Noise Gate /Fader/ Panner & Dual Compressor/ Expander Gate rack panels when next in our attic but I think that TIME MACHINE were mainly designers - but I could be wrong, it's a long time ago and a lot of anoraks under the bridge!!!!!!!!!!!!
"supicious schematics of the "Wem" Hyperflanger" - suspicious? in what way?
Quote from: StephenGiles on October 01, 2013, 03:01:28 AM
analogguru - "Sorry, I don´t get it.... The mentioned units were sold by TIME MACHINE."
Not sure about that, I'll check my Dual Noise Gate /Fader/ Panner & Dual Compressor/ Expander Gate rack panels when next in our attic but I think that TIME MACHINE were mainly designers - but I could be wrong, it's a long time ago and a lot of anoraks under the bridge!!!!!!!!!!!!
"supicious schematics of the "Wem" Hyperflanger" - suspicious? in what way?
For the benefit of doubting analogguru!!!
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.timemachinetechnology.com%2F&ei=GAlLUpKUEJKr0gW77YCYBQ&usg=AFQjCNE-STA0hnjigl99LARqIfTon-5yyA&sig2=I3-3MWhZ-fM7Xrez1Jdarg&bvm=bv.53371865,d.d2k
Quote from: StephenGiles on October 01, 2013, 03:01:28 AM
analogguru - "Sorry, I don´t get it.... The mentioned units were sold by TIME MACHINE."
Not sure about that, I'll check my Dual Noise Gate /Fader/ Panner & Dual Compressor/ Expander Gate rack panels when next in our attic but I think that TIME MACHINE were mainly designers - but I could be wrong, it's a long time ago and a lot of anoraks under the bridge!!!!!!!!!!!!
H&SR August 1988 (Enhancer) pg 66:
Quote
The Pro-Activator is available from: TIME MACHINE, Abbotsford, Deer Park Avenue, Teignmouth, Devon TQ14 9LJ
.....
Dealer enquires welcome.
H&SR Setember 1988 (Noise Gate / Fader / Panner) pg 76:
QuoteThe Dual Noise Gate / Fader / Panner is available from: TIME MACHINE, Abbotsford, Deer Park Avenue, Teignmouth, Devon TQ14 9LJ
.....
Dealer enquires welcome.
H&SR November 1988 (Compressor/Expander Gate) pg 58:
Quote
The Compressor / Expander is available from: TIME MACHINE, Abbotsford, Deer Park Avenue, Teignmouth, Devon TQ14 9LJ
.....
Dealer enquires welcome.
So not a single "G" there in the companys name.
Quote from: StephenGiles
"supicious schematics of the "Wem" Hyperflanger" - suspicious? in what way?
Suspicious in that way that noone ever has seen or sold a Wem Hyperflanger. A schematic without an actual unit is like an alleged murder without a dead body: suspicious.
BTW, do you want to see the highly confidential schematic of the Vox AC33 Deluxe Reverb ? I can draw you one... :icon_wink:
Yes of course they were sold through Time Machine at the date of publication of those articles in H & SR, but in due course they were marketed by 3 G Ltd (Third Generation), as you can see from the Actvator manual cover and Dual Noise Gate Fader Panner rack panel (bloody hard to scan!) in the following links:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1uur7u3m8fpsqiy/Dual%20Activator.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h7gutzvqyaygvo1/Panner%20gate.jpg
Did you follow the link to Alan Bradford's site? You will see on the WEM page of items designed - "Hyperflanger". I have absolutely no idea if this unit was ever released.
Quote from: StephenGiles on October 01, 2013, 05:08:03 PM
Did you follow the link to Alan Bradford's site? You will see on the WEM page of items designed - "Hyperflanger". I have absolutely no idea if this unit was ever released.
I did....and I saw WEM Hyperflanger. (You're not losing it after all Stephen! :icon_wink:)
I wonder why Charlie Watkins would have no recollection of this circuit whatsoever.
I might just see if I can contact Alan to see if he would offer up any more info on his design.
Quote from: armdnrdy on October 01, 2013, 08:53:05 PM
Quote from: StephenGiles on October 01, 2013, 05:08:03 PM
Did you follow the link to Alan Bradford's site? You will see on the WEM page of items designed - "Hyperflanger". I have absolutely no idea if this unit was ever released.
I did....and I saw WEM Hyperflanger. (You're not losing it after all Stephen! :icon_wink:)
I wonder why Charlie Watkins would have no recollection of this circuit whatsoever.
I might just see if I can contact Alan to see if he would offer up any more info on his design.
I wonder why Charlie Watkins would have no recollection of this circuit whatsoever.
I might just see if I can contact Alan to see if he would offer up any more info on his design.
[/quote]
In fact that stack of units to the right of the page showing WEM units designed by Alan Bradford appeared on an advert flyer he sent me, which included the Activator, Compressor, Noise Gate and Hyperflanger. I no longer have that unfortunately :icon_cry:
I emailed Mr. Bradford this morning. Hopefully I'll get a reply.
Thanks for the clarification Stephen.
Quote from: armdnrdy on October 02, 2013, 09:56:03 AM
I emailed Mr. Bradford this morning. Hopefully I'll get a reply.
Thanks for the clarification Stephen.
It'll be interesting to see what he has to say after all these years.
I have the Reticon data sheet for the R5101 - if required I will scan and upload.
Quote from: StephenGiles on October 04, 2013, 01:50:39 PM
I have the Reticon data sheet for the R5101 - if required I will scan and upload.
Please do Stephen.
I've searched the net and have found very little useful information about this IC save for people looking for one!
It looks like the later MXR analog delay and the Boss DM-1 used the 5101.....not much else!
Here you go 8)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i7g3orzl56go1hp/R5101a.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/metepk3xifrgtm0/R5101b.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/71xvk29tnqrpkii/R5101c.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0xb0mwt430u6rkq/R5101d.jpg
Thanks Stephen!
Now we just have to keep on the look out for one of these things!
I bet somebody out there has a whole box full of them and doesn't even know what they are! :icon_frown:
Quote from: armdnrdy on October 04, 2013, 09:26:14 PM
Thanks Stephen!
Now we just have to keep on the look out for one of these things!
I bet somebody out there has a whole box full of them and doesn't even know what they are! :icon_frown:
I found my unit which was actually sitting in the rack just 3 feet away from where I sit at my PC. My wife immediately demanded that I take it outside to get rid of the layer of dust on it - now done and initial photos taken of the board, so I'll stick them in Photoshop to see if they are useable - after breakfast that is, a chap has to eat!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8k20p8bwjttvxnj/DSCF2776.jpg
This is a hand held shot of the component side of the PCB, not as sharp as I would get using a tripod unfortunately. For those scratching their heads, I put the LM13600 marking in the picture!
You my friend are my hero! ;D
I have been researching this flanger for over a year trying to get any additional info I can. I could find nothing!
This is like finding a living, breathing, Nessie in that big ole puddle in Scotland!
Thanks Stephen!
Looks like I'm going to have to franchise the Hen's Tooth Café. :icon_mrgreen:
Wow... and I thought getting a handle on the Project V Fuzz was cool. This is amazing! :icon_cool:
Stephen was kind enough and generous enough with his time to disassemble his Hyperflanger to supply me with images of the component and trace sides!
I've been eyeballing this project for a while.....even sourcing the "harder to get" components.
This flanger has two delay sections with an effect balance to mix varying degrees of delayed signal to the stereo output stages.
There is also a dry level control that mixes the dry signal with the wet at the output stages.
This Flanger is like running two flangers in stereo through a mixer....but it can be used in mono as well.
And to add to the fun....a phase reverse switch on channel A located before the mixing stage.
Thanks to Stephen......I know know what my next project is! ;D
Hmmm...
I wonder if this one can fit into a Morley enclosure...
and then you can set one side at a fixed speed, and vary the other via the foot pedal.
:icon_twisted:
Quote from: digi2t on October 05, 2013, 03:15:58 PM
Hmmm...
I wonder if this one can fit into a Morley enclosure...
and then you can set one side at a fixed speed, and vary the other via the foot pedal.
:icon_twisted:
Interesting idea but......I already have my hands full with a flanger in a Morley enclosure! I'm working on and will be finished with the off board wiring today!
I'm re-doing the schematic at the moment but it's damn complex and some components are missing (no overlap on the schematic scans) and many unidentified.
But.......
In the interest of science and having fun I'm doing it anyway!!!
Quote from: UKToecutter on October 05, 2013, 03:57:11 PM
I'm re-doing the schematic at the moment but it's damn complex and some components are missing (no overlap on the schematic scans) and many unidentified.
But.......
In the interest of science and having fun I'm doing it anyway!!!
We've got three flanger schematics and discussions rolling around in this thread.....but....I think you're working on the MICMIX correct?
I noticed the missing edge sections as well. I think for the most part....it can be worked through.
I remembered just yesterday that I had recently purchased a SAD512 thinking that I could build something that uses this BBD IC.
Well it turns out that I couldn't find anything that uses the SAD512! Every effect uses the SAD512D! The 512D except for the same stage amount is a completely different animal! The SAD512 would have to be retrofitted with a different clock to work in place of the 512D.
So......like I mentioned.....I was thinking yesterday......The MICMIX only uses half of the SAD1024....perfect candidate for the 512 that I have!
For unmarked transistor use 3904s. (Q5 is depicted as such) For the quad op amps, judging by the MICMIX's age, I would go with 324's.
Larry,
Yes, I think it can be worked through.
Thank you for the suggestions. The 2n3904's will probably be right.
There is a part of a reference on what looks like U7 That starts TL0 so I'm guessing the unmarked chips could be TL072 / 74's
I'm having a brain fart looking at the input and output transformers at the moment. Problem is, I have no idea what impedance these originals were.
I guess I'll spec out some basic hammonds and have a play.
If you don't mind having a look at the schematic when I've finished I would much appreciate it.
Regards
Andy
If you look at the TLO...you'll see that it's a single op amp. Look at pin 5 and 8, they aren't inputs and power. The power pin is 7.
U7 should be a TLO71.
U7 is a dual. TLO72 or 82 will work
The quads could be TLO74s but it seemed more common back then to use 324s. I can't find a gut shot of this unit to verify.
I've switch out TL074s in a circuit that originally used 324s and had issues! I pulled them back out.
I'll check the pin assignments and see if there are any differences between the two.
If not, it's a moot point at this stage I guess.
For the benefit of doubting analogguru - who has, you will have noticed gone very quiet :icon_biggrin:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sh1q0cmkoeeuiwk/WEM%20advert%20P1.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pdaz061mjx4qyw0/WEM%20advert%20P2.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bvqrpstlomylfs4/WEM%20advert%20P3.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kgepm88o17d7ut0/WEM%20advert%20P4.jpg
:icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes:
mistake!!
Unbelievable Stephen!
Where did you find those ads? I searched high and low many times and came up with nothing!
Here's the copied email from Reg Godwin to Charlie Watkins:
From: Reg Godwin
To: watkins@wemwatkins.co.uk
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 1:15 PM
Subject: WEM hyperflanger enquiry
Hello Charlie,
I do hope you and June are keeping well.
I'm sorry to have been out of touch for so long. Things have been very hectic here and I have been trying to balance my day job with a multitude of projects.
Someone has contacted me about an effects unit called a WEM Hyperflanger which they think might have been produced in the 70s or 80s.
I don't recall this product ever being in any of the catalogues and wonder if it was a prototype or a figment of someone's imagination. There is a circuit floating around.
Any info would be gratefully received.
All the best,
Reg
And here's Charlie's reply:
To: Reg Godwin
Subject: Re: WEM hyperflanger enquiry
Dear Reg,
Thanks.
No. we never had such a thing.
Best regards
Charlie
There is a word for when you get up in age and completely forget about something that you were directly involved in! :icon_frown:
I just sent Reg an email containing the ad links.
It's quite extraordinary isn't it, I believe they call it a "senior moment"!
I found and scanned the actual high quality 4 page advert
This is interesting - http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/wem-copicat-sound-builder-250260447
and here, scroll down :
http://www.watkinsguitars.co.uk/copicats.htm
Stephen,
After you supplied the link for Allan's sight, and I saw the "things I have done" listing for the WEM "Sound Builder series" Hyperflanger, I googled WEM Sound Builder Series.
The only references that came up were for the Digital Copicat.
The second link that you posted is Reg Godwin's site. Reg is a huge Watkins collector. Charlie Watkins "gave" all of the Watkins Guitar patents to Reg.
Once again, great find on the ads!
I'm almost certain that series was reviewed in either Music Technology or Home and Studio Recording magazine ( both UK publications ) some time in the late 80's.
I remember seeing the flanger and freaking out over how awesome it looked !
I'll have a look to see if I still have that issue But , I did lose some to water damage.
Hey JB,
Did you ever get that Orange Phaser running?
Quote from: Tonemonger on October 08, 2013, 10:44:33 PM
I'm almost certain that series was reviewed in either Music Technology or Home and Studio Recording magazine ( both UK publications ) some time in the late 80's.
I remember seeing the flanger and freaking out over how awesome it looked !
I'll have a look to see if I still have that issue But , I did lose some to water damage.
Certainly the Activator, Compressor and Noise Gate were - all with schematics, as noted in Analogguru's earlier disbelieving post, but I have no recollection of a Hyperflanger article. I did post a couple of soundfiles here some years back of the Hyperflanger set for TZF.
wow. this is kinda amazing to watch unfurl!! <pink munches on screaming yellow zonkers> :icon_mrgreen:
It´s and intersting proyect, but I have a proposal, make it be posible to be in MN3007 BBD circuitry!! all the rest is easy to find in my land; cuze I have plenty of them (the 3080, 13600, tl072, 082, LM324........none of MN3004), please please!!! I love the FLANGERS; I stay tuned on this interesting FLANGER :icon_eek:
Quote from: GodSaveMetal on October 12, 2013, 09:39:12 PM
It´s and intersting proyect, but I have a proposal, make it be posible to be in MN3007 BBD circuitry!! all the rest is easy to find in my land; cuze I have plenty of them (the 3080, 13600, tl072, 082, LM324........none of MN3004), please please!!! I love the FLANGERS; I stay tuned on this interesting FLANGER :icon_eek:
Can you source TDA1022 or MN3204? The Hyperflanger needs two 512 stage BBDs....the 3007 is a 1024 stage.
Quote from: armdnrdy on October 12, 2013, 10:57:00 PM
Quote from: GodSaveMetal on October 12, 2013, 09:39:12 PM
It´s and intersting proyect, but I have a proposal, make it be posible to be in MN3007 BBD circuitry!! all the rest is easy to find in my land; cuze I have plenty of them (the 3080, 13600, tl072, 082, LM324........none of MN3004), please please!!! I love the FLANGERS; I stay tuned on this interesting FLANGER :icon_eek:
Can you source TDA1022 or MN3204? The Hyperflanger needs two 512 stage BBDs....the 3007 is a 1024 stage.
It´s dificult to sourse TDA1022 there are used one´s!; the MN3204 nop!! It is posible to make a MN3007 to 512 stages?? if not I have one TDA1022 and seeking for another one!!!!
Please make a PCB of this I´m interesting of this excelent FLANGER!!!
Quote from: StephenGiles on October 05, 2013, 08:15:54 AM
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8k20p8bwjttvxnj/DSCF2776.jpg
This is a hand held shot of the component side of the PCB, not as sharp as I would get using a tripod unfortunately. For those scratching their heads, I put the LM13600 marking in the picture!
You will post other photos of this??? PCB side; components values and wethever to make a lay for this wow!!!!!!!!!! Thanks man; it a pleasure to see wath you have!!!!!
QuoteCan you source TDA1022 or MN3204?
Recently bought some TDA1022's from UT Source for my Son of Stormtide Flanger build.
They're still available.
pricey?
6 bux a pop.
I really wish I could find something that uses all these Reticon R510(x) chips that I have! :icon_evil: I have several 256, 512, and 1024-stage devices.
Did the EHX DEM but, I am still looking for other uses.
Initially, it inspired me to try designing something :icon_eek: but, alas.... the inspiration faded :-\
:icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on October 13, 2013, 07:03:17 PM
I really wish I could find something that uses all these Reticon R510(x) chips that I have! :icon_evil: I have several 256, 512, and 1024-stage devices.
Breezing through the R5106/7 data sheet....it shouldn't be too difficult to retrofit or make a daughter board for any circuit.
The main difference with this series of BBD is that it inputs one clock signal and produces the other clock signal internally.
It would be more of a challenge to retrofit a "standard" BBD (SAD1024, MN3007, etc.) that inputs two clock signals into an existing pedal that utilizes a R5106/7.
Even that wouldn't be too difficult....a clock is going to have two opposite signals and should be located fairly close to the BBD....so
a jumper connecting the second clock signal could be soldered in place.
Quote from: GodSaveMetal on October 13, 2013, 05:58:07 PM
Quote from: StephenGiles on October 05, 2013, 08:15:54 AM
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8k20p8bwjttvxnj/DSCF2776.jpg
This is a hand held shot of the component side of the PCB, not as sharp as I would get using a tripod unfortunately. For those scratching their heads, I put the LM13600 marking in the picture!
You will post other photos of this??? PCB side; components values and wethever to make a lay for this wow!!!!!!!!!! Thanks man; it a pleasure to see wath you have!!!!!
Stephen has been gracious enough to gather up and send me all of the information he has on the Hyperflanger.
I'm currently working through everything...finding inconsistencies between the schematics, the factory component overlay, and the actual board images. It looks as if there were some changes after the fact.
This is not an small project. This is a rack mount flanger that would have to be housed in a larger enclosure.
Quote from: armdnrdy on October 14, 2013, 12:02:21 PM
Breezing through the R5106/7 data sheet....it shouldn't be too difficult to retrofit or make a daughter board for any circuit.
The main difference with this series of BBD is that it inputs one clock signal and produces the other clock signal internally.
...
R510x BBDs halve the feeded clock signal to produce the "other clock signal".
If you have a circuit made for MNs or SADs you should double the clock frequency if you want the same delay time with Rs.
Thanks for the clarification Federico, I didn't catch that point while breezing through the data sheet.
I see it now: R5106/7 data sheet Figure 4 timing relations
Found it ! - H+SR July '89.
Disappointingly the review barely touches upon the Hyperflanger ( I kinda wonder if the guy had more than the manual to work with ).
There's half a page of totally trashing the flimsy enclosures and how they look , a little bit of praise for the Copicat and Activator , Before laying the boot into the enclosures again.
To quote - " It is no exaggeration to say that I've seen mushrooms packed in nicer material than this " !
Hey Larry , No I haven't fixed the phaser - I keep forgetting to add the required components onto My parts orders !!
I've been talking with one of the designers of the Dynaflanger and as it turns out the SAD1024 is being used in the parallel multiplex configuration but clocked double speed to produce 512 stages instead of 1024. (for lower THD and higher DR)
So....I was pondering the thought of using a MN3007 and doubling the clock speed to achieve the same delay as a 512 stage device and at higher clock speeds (from what I've read) the clock glitches and THD should be lowered.
I know that I've run across threads dealing with double clocking the 3007, but can anyone point me in the right direction?
ADA thread? Electric Mistress thread? ???
I believe that the John Hollis Ultraflanger uses a buffered double clocked 1024 stage device.
Any other input or thoughts on double clocking the 3007?
@Larry
I think the A/DA is a good place to look. I believe the original configuration was with the SAD1024 running in a parallel configuration and it has since been adapted to run with the 3007 chip.
Thanks Greg and Federico for the replies.
I know I had read these threads before....I just didn't know where to find them!
@ Greg
If I recall correctly, bajaman chimed in, waived his hands, and said STOP what you're doing! It's all wrong!
And then preceded to explain how the MN3007 has to be clocked at twice the frequency to match the SAD1024.
@Federico
So...what I gather from these posts is: the MN3007 loses attenuation at higher frequencies. (which can be compensated with a transistor at the BBDs output)
If you clock the 3007 too high....the signal blows through it unaffected.
I'll have to check with the Dynaflanger designer, Wayne, to see what the clock frequency is calibrated at.
I just had a tangent thought. :icon_idea:
One could actually use two MN3009s (256 stage) in parallel to achieve 512 stage device results.
Quote from: armdnrdy on October 25, 2013, 10:19:40 AM
@Federico
So...what I gather from these posts is: the MN3007 loses attenuation at higher frequencies. (which can be compensated with a transistor at the BBDs output)
If you clock the 3007 too high....the signal blows through it unaffected.
watch out: MN3007 loses attenuation at higher
clock frequencies
output transistor increases BBD's output current
it might compensate with a static clock (echo); it won't compensate with sweeping clock...
unless...
(tip1) you rectify clock and obtain a variable voltage directly proportional to frequency, this voltage might drive an OTA...
or
(tip2) slightly different Gate supply voltages (Vgg) or slightly different Bias voltages will slightly modify BBD's output level without appreciable distortion
Quote from: armdnrdy on October 25, 2013, 10:19:40 AM
One could actually use two MN3009s (256 stage) in parallel to achieve 512 stage device results.
This is the easiest way.. if only 3009s wouldn't be that expensive...
Quote from: Fender3D on October 25, 2013, 11:57:40 AM
Quote from: armdnrdy on October 25, 2013, 10:19:40 AM
One could actually use two MN3009s (256 stage) in parallel to achieve 512 stage device results.
This is the easiest way.. if only 3009s wouldn't be that expensive...
There are sellers on Ebay listing 3009s for $3.66 - $8.00.
I have to finish my BBD tester to find a seller that offers good/real ones.
I can't imagine it being very feasible to re-label MN3009s......There isn't much demand for them since very few effects used them.
If the Chinese are relabeling MN3007s......they are taking something that
does sell and turning it into something that will sit because of lack of demand.
But then....people are known to do things that don't make much sense! :icon_wink:
Quote from: armdnrdy on October 25, 2013, 12:24:32 PM
Quote from: Fender3D on October 25, 2013, 11:57:40 AM
Quote from: armdnrdy on October 25, 2013, 10:19:40 AM
One could actually use two MN3009s (256 stage) in parallel to achieve 512 stage device results.
This is the easiest way.. if only 3009s wouldn't be that expensive...
There are sellers on Ebay listing 3009s for $3.66 - $8.00.
I have to finish my BBD tester to find a seller that offers good/real ones.
I can't imagine it being very feasible to re-label MN3009s......There isn't much demand for them since very few effects used them.
If the Chinese are relabeling MN3007s......they are taking something that does sell and turning it into something that will sit because of lack of demand.
But then....people are known to do things that don't make much sense! :icon_wink:
I use CHINESE relabeled MN3007 and there are fine, please man prove then; I have a hundreds of these relabeled CHINESE MN3007; i used in the MISTRESS CLON and I love his tone and sense!!!! :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: GodSaveMetal on October 25, 2013, 01:07:18 PM
I use CHINESE relabeled MN3007 and there are fine, please man prove then; I have a hundreds of these relabeled CHINESE MN3007; i used in the MISTRESS CLON and I love his tone and sense!!!! :icon_mrgreen:
The only problem with relabeled MN3009s is that they might be MN3007s stamped MN3009.
If that's the case....the flanger won't sound like the original.
I'm working on a BBD tester which tells you the amount of stages and by doing that tells you that it passes a delayed signal. (which means that the BBD is good)
If I could get a bit more disciplined and stop taking on new projects...maybe I would finish it! ;)
Quote from: armdnrdy on October 25, 2013, 06:57:24 PM
Quote from: GodSaveMetal on October 25, 2013, 01:07:18 PM
I use CHINESE relabeled MN3007 and there are fine, please man prove then; I have a hundreds of these relabeled CHINESE MN3007; i used in the MISTRESS CLON and I love his tone and sense!!!! :icon_mrgreen:
The only problem with relabeled MN3009s is that they might be MN3007s stamped MN3009.
If that's the case....the flanger won't sound like the original.
I'm working on a BBD tester which tells you the amount of stages and by doing that tells you that it passes a delayed signal. (which means that the BBD is good)
If I could get a bit more disciplined and stop taking on new projects...maybe I would finish it! ;)
You made a BBD tester?? if yes, great man great! and please post it!
Take your time I be TUNED!!
lest we forget why i posted this...
check out just the beginning. that is some sick, thick-ass flanging!!
Happy New Year everyone!
I've posted a complete updated (readable) schematic of the DynaFlanger and a complete circuit description here:
www.proaudiodesignforum.com/forum/php/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=612&p=6951
It's been 36 years since I worked on this and had to repeatedly jog my memory.
Lemme know if you have any questions.
Best;
Wayne
Here's a small version of the schematic...
(http://www.waynekirkwood.com/images/jpg/Dynaflanger_Schematic_small.jpg)
MicMix Dynaflanger Schematic Designed by Bill Hall and Wayne Kirkwood September 1, 1978.
wayne.... YOU ARE GODLIKE!!!!
Wayne,
I woke up this morning with a surprise in my in box that changed my course for the day.
Thanks for taking the time to repost complete schematics and the detailed circuit description for this beast!
I do have a question regarding the connection of the output of U5B to S4.
There is a fold on the drawing that makes the connection a bit unclear.
I believe that it should be connected to lug 2 of the "EXT" switch. Would this be the correct connection?
Wayne,
You just made my day.........
Thanks everyone!
QuoteI do have a question regarding the connection of the output of U5B to S4.
There is a fold on the drawing that makes the connection a bit unclear.
I believe that it should be connected to lug 2 of the "EXT" switch. Would this be the correct connection?
That is correct. The output of U5B (a follower) does feed the External switch at pin 2. I can barely see it on the blue line and it is indeed right on the fold.
Thanks Wayne.
Much appreciated!
So it's been over a year since any frenzied talk took place about the Dynaflange....
Should I worry that after getting the complete schematic that you all built yourselves two each and are stuck playing Zappa solos in Flanger heaven?
I am just a guitarist not a proper builder, I have built pedal kits from BYOC but without instructions the science and maths evades me.
I wish someone would build a stereo pedal or rack unit that could really do the Shut Up And Play Yer Guitar sounds, it's so unique, I was very excited when Pigtronix announced they were making a pedal that did this sound, and even more excited when I saw Dweezil was using it, but I have to say after owning that pedal for a couple of months I don't think it comes close to properly getting that sound, it felt more like an 80s metal tone with a very short delay, it's interesting and unique for sure but does not nail it, ( sorry if any Pigtronix people are on here!)
we need a pedal? rack that can do all the Flanger doubling, following and compression all in one... big ask? surely as I said before one of you has already done this and has been quietly selling them to everyone on this thread.
The closest I have been able to get to the doubling sound with pedals is using my Dr. Scientist Cosmichorus, I can provide settings if anyone has one and is interrested.
hi tompski,
i think the main barrier here is simply that there aren't any SAD1024 chips out there, so the circuit would need a complete redesign to accomodate
available bucket brigade chips. not impossible, but still above my paygrade a bit i think.
some of the smarter guys may be able to do it tho.
but remember... the "tone" of FZ is from FZ more than his gear, and a LOT of the sounds you hear are from postproduction, including this flanger. he did appear to use it live,
but it's the studio applications where ya really get that insane pillowy stereo imaging... that's more to frank's credit than the unit i'd imagine.
maybe someone will pick this up and run with it. if it were designed for more common bbd's, i'd definitely take a crack at it. would love to see this ride again.
someone needs to come up with a small PCB retrofit board that has the complete conversion, with all assorted support peripherals on a little board that plugs right into the original SAD socket. it's gotta be do-able. seems to me the best solution, as then building one board anyone could restore any other SAD kinda board.
it may be harder than i think to do that tho. ;)
Hi there,
Thanks for your reply
Yeh I understand the level of crazy production that Zappa put in to stuff afterwards it's just the Dyna Flanger has become mythical as a result, I have chased a few of his very original sounds, I succeeded with the Ship Ahoy sample hold release sound with a Subdecay Protius and distortion and wah and got quite a convincing tone, then there is the legendary Mutron Bi Phase which was very elusive and stupidly expensive for years but now Mike Beagel is back in business recreating his entire old line of pedals from back then so a new Bi Phase should be with us in the next couple of years, in the mean time I bought a Pi-Phase from Prophecy sounds which is pretty close although having never owned an original Bi-Phase I wouldn't know how close.
I recently bought a second hand Line 6 Liqua Flange which is very toy like but does do a triggered flanger so I can get the vomiting type tone from the intro of The Blue Light, not sure whether he used the Dynaflange for that.
but you're right essentially we would all need 2 x Dynaflangers and 2 x rack compressor to get the Shut up and play sounds unless someone designs an all in one unit of some sort and I doubt many of us have those kind of funds.
Even when Frank just used the straight flanger in these units it sounded very unique and sludgy, less of the metallic tone, does anyone on here think they have found a flanger that comes close just in feel and texture?
the nux mod core pedal can come close. you can run two simultaneous independent modulations with it, say a thru-zero-ish tape flange with another flanger or phaser in your choice of series or parallel in stereo.... will get ya close. i hooked mine up in stereo with two different flanges (one was actually a very slow phaser) in parallel in stereo, with a good fuzzbox in front and pretty soon was hearing satanic munchkins pooting forth weird vocalesque chanty kinda weirdness that was most attractive in it's quasi sea-sickening but very huge and mind-altering way.
you can get 'em on ebay for like 80 bux, they do so much shit WITH tap tempo, and buffered/true bypass etc that it's pretty hard to beat for the kaching.
but the caveat is if you try and tap in a tempo on a preset, it can get VERY weird and sometimes needs to be reset to clear it. but if ya wanna hear some straaaaaaaaaaaange sounds, many lurk within. chorusing, flanging, phasing, tremolo,vib, rotary (some in multiple flavas) and being able to choose two (pick two, moe!! nyuck nyuck nyuck) is kinda almost worth dealing with it's couple issues.
it even has a little lcd display screen, that shows ya the effect and the settings of the knobs, and lets you choose between editing each effect. lotta bang for the buck and totally digital, but it's about the closest i've come personally to that pillow effect in stereo frank found so tasty.
i could dig it out and shoot some video but it's probably already on youtube.
OR maybe there IS a way to make a plug-n-play retrofit for the SAD. i know it's been done, i think i even attempted at one time. then ya could build one of these with a more readily available chip.
OR maybe get on the FZ family boards or dweezil's website, and see if enough zappa heads would wanna be involved to get a bunch of chips made? that's WAY above my paygrade. ;)
Are you sure you mean the Nux, when I looked it up it was a single effect pedal with no LCD screen, or are you sending two flangers through it because it splits ?
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR3.TRC2.A0.H0.Xnux+mod+force.TRS0&_nkw=nux+mod+force&_sacat=0 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR3.TRC2.A0.H0.Xnux+mod+force.TRS0&_nkw=nux+mod+force&_sacat=0)
(http://tomorrowhome.tomtop.com/?imgurl=media/catalog/product/i/2/i298-9-5eb1_1.jpg)
Features:
12 Modulation effects give you all the modulation effects you'll ever need.
Stereo signal processing, provide a fantastically musical feast.
Color TFT LCD panel(128x128), graphic interface make the overall operation easy and intuitive.
With 9 storable user presets, you can have a good preparation before performance.
2 alternative bypass: buffered bypass and true bypass, you can choose one of them according to your need.
Aluminum alloy housing, good durability.
The pedal can be powered by a 9V DC.
Specifications:
Color: White
Material of housing: Aluminum alloy
Effect types: 12 modulation models
Presets: Up to 9 storable user presets plus manual mode
Sampling frequency: 44.1 kHz
A/D converter: 24-bit
Signal processing: 32-bit
Frequency response: 20Hz-20kHz ±1dB
THD+N: 93dBu (<0.003%) A-Weighting
Dynamic range: 100dB
Input: -20dBV@1MΩ
Output: -10dBV (output load impedance of 10k Ohms or more)
Display: 128*128 QVGA TFT
Power: 9V DC (9V battery, ACD-007 adapter)(not included)
Product size: 9.5 * 10.5 * 3.8cm / 3.7 * 4.1 * 1.5in
Product weight: 408g / 14,4oz
Package size: 12.5 * 14 * 6cm / 4.9 * 5.5 * 2.4in
Package weight: 489g / 17.2oz
Package List: I298
1 * Nux mod force
1 * User manual (English& Chinese)
the time force delay (looks real similar) is even better, for what it is.
A small question.
In the DynaFlanger scheme, there is a 4-stage fixed phase shift (I think) after the BBD. What that for?
Quote from: anotherjim on February 18, 2015, 08:41:46 AM
A small question.
In the DynaFlanger scheme, there is a 4-stage fixed phase shift (I think) after the BBD. What that for?
U14 is an 8 pole filter to reconstruct the BBDs output.
More info and a circuit description from the designer here:
http://www.proaudiodesignforum.com/forum/php/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=612&p=6951
Theta processing.
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=91378.0
I think Larry has it , and it is indeed the designers explanation. It looks odd, but it's just a chain of 4, 2-pole Sallen-Key LPF's. I think not being able to read the input pin polarities on the amp symbols throws the brain off - or it did with mine :icon_redface:
Interesting stuff on the "Theta" processing Mark. The name is I suppose from the use of the Greek letter Theta for Phase displacement, yes?
No idea, but the motivation is to reduce the boxiness of flangers when they sweep low by staggering the notches/peaks a little differently, and in a non-harmonic manner.
I perfed up a little add-on board with a quad op-amp of fixed lag-type phase-shift stages some time back that I need to insert into an existing flanger to see if I like the sound any better. The lag topology is important, since the idea is that more phase-shift is added with decreasing frequency. Most of us are more accustomed to the lead-type where phase shift increases as you go higher up.
Any news on here? anyone made a Dynaflanger?
I am on the wait list for the new TZF II from Foxrox which has an envelope control and I'm also on on the pre pay list for the new pedalboard friendly Ada Flanger, I wonder if I try these two in series if I might get some of those Zappa flanger tones.
http://www.foxroxelectronics.com/ParadoxTZF2.html
http://www.adaamps.com/Products/ada-PBF-Flanger/PBF-Flanger.htm
probably not, unfortunately. i'd advise buying a pair of cheap as possible used flangers and experiment first to see if it will get you what you want. otherwise, you're gonna spend a fortune chasing a tone i don't think you'll get.
the dynaflanger is a stereo flange going opposite directions in stereo... so you'll have phasing issues, and won't be able to actually replicate the sound. you may be able to get both clocks going in a way where you MAY be able to kinda pseudo fake it, but it won't likely be repeatable sadly.
me? i'd get a couple cheapos, maybe some dod's or something and try it before i'd lay the bread down.
that said, imho, everything dave foxx has come up with has been really cool. wicked nice guy, too... known him since the harmony central days.
good luck in your quest man, if it works out i'd love to hear about it. ;)
cheers dude, I am getting these two anyway not just for the Zappa reason mainly because they are both legendary pedals, as I said before I get pretty close to this tone with my Dr Scientist Cosmichorus and wah and distortion.
I will report back about these two if I have a breakthrough.
But seriously did Zappa have the only two Dynaflangers in existance??!! I can't even find decent photos of one or a manual. Has anyone on this thread actually seen one or played with one?
Quote from: Tompski on January 21, 2016, 12:00:52 PM
But seriously did Zappa have the only two Dynaflangers in existance??!! I can't even find decent photos of one or a manual. Has anyone on this thread actually seen one or played with one?
You are a few years too late for this one! ;)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MicMix-DynaFlanger-Rackmount-Envelope-Controlled-Analog-Flange-Delay-Frank-Zappa-/110900778258?nma=true&si=9Uu3lDc%252FYBSt4tItRWYAVv%252BwKK8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
ot , but ... +1 on the nux force units , i have the delay , the mod , and the amp sim . right now i am using the mod force stock unmodded but i admit to thinking about modding it for envelope control over the depth or rate but , ultimately i would want to order another one as i really love all three .
i bought "shut up" when it was released and that tone immediately piqued my interest , but unfortunately , over the years i have practically given up all hope on that . i do feel the more folks TYPE about stuff like this , the chance that a company will resurect this idea as it did really stand out . if my back pain situation had not escalated to where it is today there is a good chance i would be working on this envelope control idea right now but , i havent been able to get much done the last few years .
that being said , this is one of the threads i get excited about when i see it has been updated .
What if someone on this thread boiled the main ingredients of this story down to an email that we could send out to a shortlist of suitable pedal builders around the globe and see if we can ignite someone's interest in building it? is the there not another bbd/chip that can be used instead?
What about the original designer/builder? He could have a come back like Mike Biegel from Mutron! Am I dreaming???
Although we all know we are after that sound that Frank got so we need someone to build two in one so it may need to stay as a rack or half rack.
Surely someone can build a modern interpretation which has the same functionallity?
Hi guys, first post. Has anyone here played a Zoom GFX 707? It had an effect called time trip which was envelope controlled delay. But it had mix control, feedback and sensitivity. It did everything from warped tape sounds, delays that got longer and shorter according to picking dynamics, chorus, but most importantly it did the Dyna flanger sound.
It could do positive and negative too so its worth checking out because you could throw two of these in a rack, maybe use the other fx, comp, wah, delay etc and get a pretty close approximation of the Dynaflanger very cheaply.
we need to ressurrect this beast. SOMEONE has gotta have one. i'll be seeing dweezil next month, and if i can chat with him after the show again, i'll ask if he'd consider letting one of us see an actual unit, get gut shots/measurements etc.
i'll ply him with pedals and hope for the best. but i mean, shoot, if we could bring the ludwig back from the shades, and dino and phil could do the same with they synthi. what the hell, right? ;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on August 22, 2019, 05:52:06 PM
we need to ressurrect this beast. SOMEONE has gotta have one. i'll be seeing dweezil next month, and if i can chat with him after the show again, i'll ask if he'd consider letting one of us see an actual unit, get gut shots/measurements etc.
i'll ply him with pedals and hope for the best. but i mean, shoot, if we could bring the ludwig back from the shades, and dino and phil could do the same with they synthi. what the hell, right? ;)
Consider me interested. I've downloaded the schematics. perhaps i'll have a go at drawing something up, I've got a relatively clean slate at the moment :)
Could we use the SAD1024 mods that were put on the mutron flanger at all here??
The Mutron ran the SAD1024 in series configuration if I recall so was using the 3007 as intended.
Besides the point, it wont be too hard to adapt to an MN3007 but we need to know the clock frequencies. Given the heavy filtering at 25KHz it's a good chance the minimum is going to be 50KHz so we'll need to double that to 100KHz so just halve that 50pF clock cap, assuming a 20:1 sweep ratio the max is going to be 2MHz so it'll definitely need a 4049 buffer.
The current mirror output'll need flipping but apart from that...
Edit: Whoops, forgot the parallel multiplexing, 25-500kHz might be more likely in which case a 4049 shouldn't be necessary.
Well, since my bro P-mow has jumped into this fray, I guess I'll take a dip too.
I have a whole bunch of these...
(http://www.155la3.ru/images/ka528br2.jpg)
They are KA528БР2 (KA528BR2). Russian equivalents (supposedly) to the SAD1024, but with worse signal to noise figures than the 1024. Not really sure how that would impact the overall performance, but if someone can help me with the pin to pin translation, I would be ready to push this into service here.
Here is the datasheet (in Russian); https://www.promelec.ru/pdf/528br2.pdf (https://www.promelec.ru/pdf/528br2.pdf)
I think I have a VERY loose translation of an application note somewhere at home, but I'm on the road till Wednesday. In the meantime, here an app sheet; http://www.155la3.ru/datafiles/ka528br2.pdf (http://www.155la3.ru/datafiles/ka528br2.pdf)
I've read they're more like MN3001 which is a very big distinction and would be far worse than an MN3007 in this application.
We'd need to know its insertion loss if any, it's gain vs. freq, it's clock pin capacitance, P or N channel, if the output voltage varies with frequency and if it needs gate biasing.
I can take some guesses from the graphs in those folders as to what's what and if they're right, while not bad in areas, it's not really the best suited for this job. Headroom looks more like a 320X series chip, gain vs. freq looks pretty good, don't see any gate biasing in the application, insertion loss is 5dB (which would be what makes it more like the MN3001 and is the real killer) and I think its saying it'll run from 20kHz - 1MHz so I assume the clock pin capacitance isn't too high. It would however, be perfect for a Tychobrahe Pedal Flanger clone...
While googling for DanaFlanger gutshots...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ-UCvlRGlc
-KM
This would make a good winter-time project. I have both MN3204 and MN3004 BBDs that I could play with here. Perhaps I could grab a TDA1022 as well seeing how SB has a stock of them. Though it would be best to get a clone running with an SAD1024 first but getting my hands on one of those could be a nightmare.
There's a few rackmount units I would like to build and this one is high on the list.
-KM
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on August 27, 2019, 09:11:44 AM
This would make a good winter-time project. I have both MN3204 and MN3004 BBDs that I could play with here. Perhaps I could grab a TDA1022 as well seeing how SB has a stock of them. Though it would be best to get a clone running with an SAD1024 first but getting my hands on one of those could be a nightmare.
There's a few rackmount units I would like to build and this one is high on the list.
-KM
The MN3204 & TDA would be very poor choices, the MN3204 would require TTL logic for the clock or a total redesign and the TDA has awful insertion loss that you'd need to find somewhere to counteract and which is going to make noise a lot worse.
The MN3004... it's not perfect, again, insertion loss (although nowhere near as bad as the TDA) and poor gain vs. clock specs (the datasheet has it losing 1dB at a 10:1 ratio) but it might be acceptable, only you'll need two of course.
Quote from: Scruffie on August 27, 2019, 09:45:05 AM
The MN3204 & TDA would be very poor choices, the MN3204 would require TTL logic for the clock or a total redesign and the TDA has awful insertion loss that you'd need to find somewhere to counteract and which is going to make noise a lot worse.
The MN3004... it's not perfect, again, insertion loss (although nowhere near as bad as the TDA) and poor gain vs. clock specs (the datasheet has it losing 1dB at a 10:1 ratio) but it might be acceptable, only you'll need two of course.
Thanks for the input, Scruffie!
I have 3 MN3004 BBDs in a Hammond XB-2 I'm likely going to scrap and retrofit. Figured it would be worth the experiment! But as I said - I'll try with the SAD1024 first and then go from there.
-KM
what about adapting it to use FPGA's? (Field Programmable Gate Arrays)
i was told you can use them to emulate most analog chips... and looking at the schematic for the SAD it doesn't look too complex, just a shit load of the same thing 1024 times ;)
sorry to zombie boost this but a man can dream
I worked at MicMix and, along with Bill Hall, developed the prototype DynaFlanger. Bill left MicMix before the product came to market - it was my job to bring it into production. The schematics posted here and in the OP are from my file copies.
A couple of years ago I re-introduced another MicMix product, the XL-305 reverb, which is/was built by AudioScape. https://www.audio-scape.com/products/xl-305r The XL-305 was reborn here: https://micmixaudio.com/forum/php/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=213
I've always wanted to do an improved DynaFlanger or DynaPhasor - one of the experiments I ran back in the early 80's was to add an exponential converter between the control voltage stage and VCO clock. It tracked frequency and envelope in a much more musical way. I think Frank would have liked it. The DynaPhaser prototype used SSM2040 filters - today I'd use THAT VCAs. https://micmixaudio.com/forum/php/viewtopic.php?t=368
There's a tiled easier-to-follow version of the DynaFlanger schematic here: https://dynaflanger.com/forum/php/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=612
I sold my DynaFlanger back in the late 80's and the original work was done almost 45 years ago. There's no reason I see an MN-series couldn't be made to work to replace the SAD1024 particularly in a design that has two MN running in parallel with one fixed and the other providing delta-T to provide zero-crossover flanging.