Hey all,
So after a long time reading and researching, I've decided to try building my own pedal. I am a complete novice at this as I have no prior electronics experience, but it is something I am really ambitious and motivated about getting into. I've read quite a bit but I think the best way for me to learn is to try to start a project and learn as I go, learning from mistakes if need be.
I was originally looking at some of the most basic circuits I could find, so I could just copy one verbatim and see how it turned out. Originally I settled on a Dallas Rangemaster as it was a single transistor circuit - but the whole issue of biasing and measuring leakage etc seemed a little off putting.
I have a friend who works in the electronics industry and he has been helping me somewhat in terms of guidance. He asked me to show him a circuit that I'd actually LIKE to build i.e a pedal I would like to own. I showed him the Pete Cornish G2 and a clone schematic / PCB I found online. Well, he thought I should just go for it. So he has gave me a few of the PCB's for the circuit, and most of the components.
I plan to basically just do a straight up copy of it - I figure as long as I am careful with my soldering, it is glorified lego. I am sure I will still manage to mess it up.
One very noob question I have on this to start with...
The components. It lists them all here. The only problem is, I presume the list of components isn't specific. I mean, on these schematics it says transistors Q1 - Q5 are known as "BC549". What does this mean? Is this just a general type of transistor? If it is just a general type, I am guessing there are various makes and kinds of it which vary in quality?
I guess what I am trying to say is, do I just go to a store and buy any kind of resistor / cap / diode that the circuit lists I need, or do I need to be more specific? I find it hard to word. I just know that when I for example revalve my guitar amps, I can go out and buy just any old 12aX7 / ECC83 and it won't do it much justice - but what I prefer to do is buy specific, good quality types of these valves which bring a lot more out of my amp.
Does these circuit components work the same way? If so, can someone advise me on what types/models of components I should go for in this build?
I am probably making very little sense lol. This is all part of the learning process for me - asking the stupid questions etc.
Thanks for your patience.
Steve.
http://stompboxed.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/pete-cornish-g2.html (http://stompboxed.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/pete-cornish-g2.html)
Nope, you make tons of sense. The various numbers and letters can be off putting if are unsure of what you're looking for - in which case, you are going to want to wait a while before trying to browse Mouser.
In any case, you probably won't just 'go to the store' and but any kind of component. Even radio shack won't have some things you need, which is why a lot of us do our shopping online. This forum's store has a great number of things you may need. Small Bear Elec also has a ton of components. Taydaelectronics has lots as well, but if you are looking for quality stuff, sometimes they can be hit or miss. Then there are the big guys - Mouser, Digitech, etc where they have other things besides the components we tend to use. Many other things. Start off with this site's store and small bear. If you search for a BC549, and they have them, the one that will come up is the one you want. Technically, all BC549's should be similar with respect to our purposes.
For the resistors, it's mostly preference. You can get carbon, metal, etc. You can get them in various wattages, but most tend to go with 1/4W or so. Even 1/8 will usually do and they are the smallest.
Capacitors are preference for most things - tolerance, size. You do need to make sure you get ones that have a high enough voltage rating. They can come as low as 16V, which is ok for a lot of things, but if you ever want to use an 18V adapter, you had better make sure you caps can handle it. 25V is alright. Anything above that usually gets larger and larger.
Do a search of this forum, these questions get asked a lot so you'll find a lot of good info if you search for it. The G2 is pretty ambitious for a first build, good luck. I hope you've soldered before.
Hi--
Your questions are all perfectly reasonable. Before you buy parts and/or pick up tools, check out two references. One is the beginner FAQ on this site. The other is my Beginner Dos and Don'ts:
https://www.smallbearelec.com/HowTos/BeginnerArticle/BeginnerDos.htm
A Rangemaster or a Cornish boost Is actually a reasonable first build if you have a build-it-this-way design and some help with picking components. You can also try the Beginner Project on this site. If you shop in my store and want/need help, e-mail smallbearelec@ix.netcom.com
HAPPY CONSTRUCTION!
Quote from: mth5044 on January 16, 2014, 05:58:53 PM
Nope, you make tons of sense. The various numbers and letters can be off putting if are unsure of what you're looking for - in which case, you are going to want to wait a while before trying to browse Mouser.
In any case, you probably won't just 'go to the store' and but any kind of component. Even radio shack won't have some things you need, which is why a lot of us do our shopping online. This forum's store has a great number of things you may need. Small Bear Elec also has a ton of components. Taydaelectronics has lots as well, but if you are looking for quality stuff, sometimes they can be hit or miss. Then there are the big guys - Mouser, Digitech, etc where they have other things besides the components we tend to use. Many other things. Start off with this site's store and small bear. If you search for a BC549, and they have them, the one that will come up is the one you want. Technically, all BC549's should be similar with respect to our purposes.
For the resistors, it's mostly preference. You can get carbon, metal, etc. You can get them in various wattages, but most tend to go with 1/4W or so. Even 1/8 will usually do and they are the smallest.
Capacitors are preference for most things - tolerance, size. You do need to make sure you get ones that have a high enough voltage rating. They can come as low as 16V, which is ok for a lot of things, but if you ever want to use an 18V adapter, you had better make sure you caps can handle it. 25V is alright. Anything above that usually gets larger and larger.
Do a search of this forum, these questions get asked a lot so you'll find a lot of good info if you search for it. The G2 is pretty ambitious for a first build, good luck. I hope you've soldered before.
That is exactly the kind of answer I was after - Thank you so much!
Yea its all a little overwhelming for now - but as much as I've been reading, its only now that I am prepping for a first build that I am taking a lot of the info in properly.
When I say 'go to the store', I did actually mean online. I am in Ireland, by the way. We have Maplin here which is like RadioShack I guess. I have a discount code that I can use for a electronics website here in the UK called OneCall. Not sure if you heard of it?
In my research I have came across some of the electronics sites you mention. Thanks for those, I'll make sure to give them a look through.
My worry was that I'd go and buy, for example, the first BC549 to come up, and then someone tell me "oh geez, that is a particularly crappy BC549!" lol. If they are indifferent to one another, thats all I need to know. I am sure i will get into the nitty gritty of different makes and materials of components soon.
This worry originated when I started thinking about building the Dallas Rangemaster and someone told me they only got around to making one when they found a yellow Mullard OC44. I looked one up and it was like 100 bucks!
Still learning here!
Steve.
Quote from: smallbearelec on January 16, 2014, 06:03:36 PM
Hi--
Your questions are all perfectly reasonable. Before you buy parts and/or pick up tools, check out two references. One is the beginner FAQ on this site. The other is my Beginner Dos and Don'ts:
https://www.smallbearelec.com/HowTos/BeginnerArticle/BeginnerDos.htm
A Rangemaster or a Cornish boost Is actually a reasonable first build if you have a build-it-this-way design and some help with picking components. You can also try the Beginner Project on this site. If you shop in my store and want/need help, e-mail smallbearelec@ix.netcom.com
HAPPY CONSTRUCTION!
Many thanks - and thanks for going easy on my embarrassing beginner queries! I have been to the site and its brilliant. Thank you for the info. It is all helping a lot!
Steve.
Quote from: mth5044 on January 16, 2014, 05:58:53 PM
I hope you've soldered before.
I work as a sound engineer - I don't have much experience of electronics, but I do a fair amount of soldering broken XLR's, Jack and DMX cables as well as making them. It helps!
Quote from: steveyraff on January 16, 2014, 06:05:59 PM
This worry originated when I started thinking about building the Dallas Rangemaster and someone told me they only got around to making one when they found a yellow Mullard OC44. I looked one up and it was like 100 bucks!
Thats just a case of us guitarists searching for 'mojo' wherever we can. You get the same thing with people wanting to recreate to perfect oringal Hendrix tone or whatever paying mucho $$$ for NOS (new old stock) vacuum tubes that were sitting in some drawer never used for 50 years.
Component wise, when looking through catalogs, one thing you have to look out for is the components package type. Especially with integrated circuits like opamps where you can accidentally order surface-mount devices instead of through hole, which then don't really help you much if you have a layout/board designed for regular through-hole components.
> "BC549". What does this mean? Is this just a general type of transistor? If it is just a general type, I am guessing there are various makes and kinds of it which vary in quality?
"BC549" is a _specification_, published so that you may buy that part from ANY maker with confidence you will get what you want.
Here's a BC549 datasheet, published by NXP, but giving the same specifications as anybody else's BC549.
http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/BC549_550.pdf
Quality? This has not been a major issue in decades. The BIG parts buyers (military, TV, computer, etc) need "good" parts by the millions. It is not worth making "less-good" parts just for the tiny DIY market.
Buy from *known* vendors, you will get a part which meets all BC549 specs.
Favor pedal specialists because they already know what you want.
This forum's host sells parts, click STORE (http://www.diystompboxes.com/cart/) at the top of this page.
Small Bear does a big business of pedal-type parts. He'll sell you one or ten, but he also sells to builders who buy a thousand parts at a time, so he can't do dubious parts.
Mouser and DigiKey are the Big Boys. They have stuff nobody knows what it is. Good when you know what you want, but often overwhelming.
(eBay is very chancy, especially for novices.)
Something you'll run up against is that most schematics and layouts assume you know how to wire up the off-board components, and they don't tell you. Here is a good resource:
Off-board Wiring
http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages/StompboxWiring/
Here's a good resource for all about...
Capacitors
http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages/Caps/
Resistors & Potentiometers
http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages/Pots/
Being from Ireland, you might find Bits Box handy for components;
http://www.bitsbox.co.uk/pa/FXKitIndex.html
I'm from Oz, and have purchased from Small Bear, Tayda, Musikding, Bits Box, ebay, and others, and haven't had a problem. While the "pedal specialists" might be a little more expensive in some instances, the security and support you get is well worth it.
Cheers, Ian.
Hey guys, just finished collecting all of my tools and components and the PCB's arrived today too. I still just need to get a 3PDT footswitch, jackplugs and enclosures. Almost there though. Still doing my research and reading to make sure I do the job properly and to the best of my noobish abilities.
Steve.
CORNISH G2-PCB :- http://s597.photobucket.com/user/steveyraff/media-full/Mobile%20Uploads/G2PCB_zps32786c43.jpg.html (http://s597.photobucket.com/user/steveyraff/media-full/Mobile%20Uploads/G2PCB_zps32786c43.jpg.html)
(http://s597.photobucket.com/user/steveyraff/media-full/Mobile%20Uploads/G2PCB_zps32786c43.jpg.html)
Hey - I was reading more info on my build here: http://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/Darkside/docs/Darkside_ver.2.pdf (http://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/Darkside/docs/Darkside_ver.2.pdf)
It says at one point: "You can also sub different transistors. However, be mindful of pin-outs! The BC549 has a
pinout 180° from a 2n5088."
Can someone explain this to me and what a 'pinout' is?
Many thanks,
Steve.
Hi Steve, pinouts are important in components such as transistors, ICs, diodes, etc.
For transistors, you need to know how to connect them to your circuit, and according to schematics.
Pinouts are shown as "CBE" for Collector, Base and Emitter. However depending on the transistor, these will not always be in the CBE order when you physically look at them.
BC549
(http://circuits.datasheetdir.com/309/CDIL-BC549-pinout.jpg)
2N5088
(http://pinout-circuits-images.dz863.com/28/2N5088.jpg)
So if you look at the flat face or the transistors with the pins going down, the BC549 pinout will be Collector-Base-Emittor but the 2N5088 pinout will be Emittor-Base-Collector.
That's why Madbean says to turn it 180°.
Quote from: Hemmel on January 21, 2014, 10:46:04 AM
Hi Steve, pinouts are important in components such as transistors, ICs, diodes, etc.
For transistors, you need to know how to connect them to your circuit, and according to schematics.
Pinouts are shown as "CBE" for Collector, Base and Emitter. However depending on the transistor, these will not always be in the CBE order when you physically look at them.
BC549
(http://circuits.datasheetdir.com/309/CDIL-BC549-pinout.jpg)
2N5088
(http://pinout-circuits-images.dz863.com/28/2N5088.jpg)
So if you look at the flat face or the transistors with the pins going down, the BC549 pinout will be Collector-Base-Emittor but the 2N5088 pinout will be Emittor-Base-Collector.
That's why Madbean says to turn it 180°.
Very helpful - thank you. I think I understand now. So when someone says be careful about the 'pinout'; do they just mean be careful what order and configuration the component pins (legs) are?
That's pretty straight forward. I was aware that components need to be soldered in a certain way around. I had downloaded a few charts to consult when I need to find out the correct orientation of a component.
Thanks!
Steve.
Basically, yes. Careful of the pinout is usually when you are subing one transistor in for another. If you have a vero/perf/PCB layout, the transistor will (hopefully) be shown soldered in the right way. If you are replacing one transistor with another, the new transistor might not be installed the same way as the layout shows. Thus watch the pinout!
Quote from: mth5044 on January 22, 2014, 05:30:46 PM
Basically, yes. Careful of the pinout is usually when you are subing one transistor in for another. If you have a vero/perf/PCB layout, the transistor will (hopefully) be shown soldered in the right way. If you are replacing one transistor with another, the new transistor might not be installed the same way as the layout shows. Thus watch the pinout!
Ok cool! Thanks.
I am also having some confusion over Diode 5 in this circuit. I may be confused in my research, but I believe it is something to do with the power supply or voltage protection? A friend who made a similar circuit already said the one I have is overkill. I have a 1N5822. The Madbean guide said I can also use a 1N4001 and my friend agreed that would be better - but I still don't understand why? He said Polarity protection like this is actually worse than no protection at all and that if you plug in an inverted supply the diode will explode saving the rest of the components but can actually blow a hole in the pcb??? He said that every fuzz pedal with pnp's he has ever done, he put in a charge pump that allows him to plug in the standard boss style supply.
Can someone explain all this to me??? I'd obviously like the pedal to take the normal standard UK Boss style power supply too.
Sorry again for the silly questions - desperately trying to figure this all out.
Steve.
bump.
I'm not sure about why the Schottky 1N5822 would be better than a 1N4001 in a fuzz, but maybe someone else can chime in about that.
Regarding the positive ground issue, I haven't built any PNP pedals yet, but my understanding is you can use a regular Boss style adapter you wire it like this:
http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/pdf/ggg_sw_3pdt_tb_pnp_dcj.pdf
Don't take my word for it, though. Wait for someone who really knows what they're talking about explain it.
> why the Schottky 1N5822 would be better than a 1N4001
Lower voltage drop; but nothing in this pedal would mind 1V reverse voltage.
> the diode will explode saving the rest of the components
No; after the diode explodes you have reverse voltage on all the parts.
Another plan showed a beefy 1N540x 3 Amp diode. The idea is that this big diode will hang-in long enough to blow-up your power supply, thus protecting your build.
Many of these "reverse protection" schemes date from days of batteries. You can start to plug a battery backward. A 1N4001 rectifier diode can short-out a pocket 9V batt forever, or at least long enough for you to note the snaps won't go and try it the other way. But if you may use "any" 9V power supply, you have to pick the diode to survive blowing-up the biggest supply in your world. And then replace that power supply (though big ones are often self-protecting).
The Boss style power supply is 9V. This fuzz is negative ground just like most pedals. I don't see any real problem. Be careful when you wire the power jack. Note that, I think, you want the Plastic jack (or bushings on a metal jack) because the basic metal jack polarity conflicts with metal pedal-boxes.
Hey guys,
So - I more or less have all my components. Yes, I am taking a long time - but I am researching and learning as I go, and trying to make sure I do each step correctly. Its my first build so I'll take my time and learn as much as possible from this one as possible, so the next might be easier - and quicker!
I just need some final parts. Jack Sockets. I was looking at the parts on http://doctortweek.co.uk and it lists Jack Socket 1/4 Mono Skeleton, Jack Socket 1/4 Stereo Switched Skeleton, and Enclosed.
I am just wondering what to go for. I had presumed Mono's but my friend wrote in an email "You'll need 2 Jack sockets (one of these a switched stereo if you plan on using a battery AND dc jack. I don't use batteries so I just buy mono skeleton jack sockets)" Can someone explain this in a little more detail please, so that I can better understand the reasoning behind this??
Second question:
I need to buy a 3PDT footswitch. Can someone let me know a little about this in relation to making the pedal True Bypass. Am I right in thinking it is the wiring of this switch that will dictate if the pedal operates in true bypass or not? If so, some details about this would be cool.
Thanks guys, I am doing most of this research myself in my free time, but if some people here can offer me quick answers it'd be a great time saver. Cheers!
A stereo switched jack is used (typically as the input) to save the battery. The negative terminal of the battery is wired up the the ring of the stereo jack (which has a tip, ring and sleeve like the stereo cables). When no cable is in the jack, the circuit is not complete and the battery won't die. When a mono plug is insterted, the ring prong of the stereo jack is connected to ground through the sleeve of the plug. A mono plug doens't have a ring, so the ring and the sleeve prongs of the jack both touch the sleeve of the plug. This completes the circuit and allows the battery to power the circuit. This is done so that when you are done playing, you unplug the input and the battery doesn't die. Unless you add a power on/off switch, there is no real way to save the battery besides taking it out. I don't use batteries, so I never use this type of switching. As your friend said, two mono jacks will do just fine if you don't intend on using a battery (only a power cable). I also use the 'skeleton' jacks as you call them, which are just the normal looking open jacks. The enclosed jacks are big and black and I think they take up more room. Doesn't really matter which you use, but if you go skeletal make sure the plug, when insterted, doesn't run into anything.
For the switching, unless you specifically plan ahead for non-true bypass, you will be using it. There are circuits where you can shunt out a portion of the circuit, such as killing an oscillator in a trem, that will effectively stop the sound of the pedal; however, the signal will still go through some circuitry and be 'colored' by it, as they say. Another type of switching is fet switching like Boss pedals. It will bypass the effect circuit, but your signal still goes through some switching circuitry. The simpliest for beginners is true bypass. There are literally a billion wiring diagrams on the internet for a 3PDT true bypass, have a look at them when you go to wire it up. You can also use a DPDT without an LED or with the millenium bypass (google).
Quote from: mth5044 on February 04, 2014, 05:38:27 PM
A stereo switched jack is used (typically as the input) to save the battery. The negative terminal of the battery is wired up the the ring of the stereo jack (which has a tip, ring and sleeve like the stereo cables). When no cable is in the jack, the circuit is not complete and the battery won't die. When a mono plug is insterted, the ring prong of the stereo jack is connected to ground through the sleeve of the plug. A mono plug doens't have a ring, so the ring and the sleeve prongs of the jack both touch the sleeve of the plug. This completes the circuit and allows the battery to power the circuit. This is done so that when you are done playing, you unplug the input and the battery doesn't die. Unless you add a power on/off switch, there is no real way to save the battery besides taking it out. I don't use batteries, so I never use this type of switching. As your friend said, two mono jacks will do just fine if you don't intend on using a battery (only a power cable). I also use the 'skeleton' jacks as you call them, which are just the normal looking open jacks. The enclosed jacks are big and black and I think they take up more room. Doesn't really matter which you use, but if you go skeletal make sure the plug, when insterted, doesn't run into anything.
For the switching, unless you specifically plan ahead for non-true bypass, you will be using it. There are circuits where you can shunt out a portion of the circuit, such as killing an oscillator in a trem, that will effectively stop the sound of the pedal; however, the signal will still go through some circuitry and be 'colored' by it, as they say. Another type of switching is fet switching like Boss pedals. It will bypass the effect circuit, but your signal still goes through some switching circuitry. The simpliest for beginners is true bypass. There are literally a billion wiring diagrams on the internet for a 3PDT true bypass, have a look at them when you go to wire it up. You can also use a DPDT without an LED or with the millenium bypass (google).
Brilliant, thank you very much - a very good summary. :)
I could be wrong, but isn't a switched stereo jack a different beast? A basic stereo jack has the tip, ring, sleeve, but I think a switched jack has an extra pair of tags that connect a switch.
Edit: changed 'contacts' to 'tags'
You are quite right, thanks!
Quote from: steveyraff on February 04, 2014, 05:53:15 PM
Quote from: mth5044 on February 04, 2014, 05:38:27 PM
A stereo switched jack is used (typically as the input) to save the battery. The negative terminal of the battery is wired up the the ring of the stereo jack (which has a tip, ring and sleeve like the stereo cables). When no cable is in the jack, the circuit is not complete and the battery won't die. When a mono plug is insterted, the ring prong of the stereo jack is connected to ground through the sleeve of the plug. A mono plug doens't have a ring, so the ring and the sleeve prongs of the jack both touch the sleeve of the plug. This completes the circuit and allows the battery to power the circuit. This is done so that when you are done playing, you unplug the input and the battery doesn't die. Unless you add a power on/off switch, there is no real way to save the battery besides taking it out. I don't use batteries, so I never use this type of switching. As your friend said, two mono jacks will do just fine if you don't intend on using a battery (only a power cable). I also use the 'skeleton' jacks as you call them, which are just the normal looking open jacks. The enclosed jacks are big and black and I think they take up more room. Doesn't really matter which you use, but if you go skeletal make sure the plug, when insterted, doesn't run into anything.
For the switching, unless you specifically plan ahead for non-true bypass, you will be using it. There are circuits where you can shunt out a portion of the circuit, such as killing an oscillator in a trem, that will effectively stop the sound of the pedal; however, the signal will still go through some circuitry and be 'colored' by it, as they say. Another type of switching is fet switching like Boss pedals. It will bypass the effect circuit, but your signal still goes through some switching circuitry. The simpliest for beginners is true bypass. There are literally a billion wiring diagrams on the internet for a 3PDT true bypass, have a look at them when you go to wire it up. You can also use a DPDT without an LED or with the millenium bypass (google).
Brilliant, thank you very much - a very good summary. :)
Here's a good picture of what is going on with the stereo jack and with the bypass switch: http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages/StompboxWiring/
Thanks guys, you've all been very helpful.
Bought a variety just incase, and to add to my supplies for future projects. Thanks!
the boxed jack is longer, flange to pins, but takes a little less room circumference-wise. boxed jacks are less likely to short on things around them, and won't expand when you in plug, whereas the open type will, as the contacts move. your choice depends on how much room you have in your case, and in which direction you have most room.
the box jack is also available with isolated change-over switchs, you can use them to switch power or open or short other isolated parts of your circuit as you plug or unplug. you do need to meter your connections, just to make sure.
Thanks for the help so far.
I finally started populating my PCB today. Good to finally start some soldering. Had to get a workstation set up and all the tools and components to do the job right from the start. Just getting all the resistors out of the way first. So far, finding the process to be actually very therapeutic!
I bought a range of Diodes that Madbean suggested experimenting with on this circuit. The guide states "There's some debate over the best diodes to use for D1 – D4. Try socketing those so that you can swap out different varieties. These are good ones to try in the circuit: 1n34a, 1n270, 1n60,
BAT41, and 1n914."
I have all of these diodes gathered up. What I am wondering is, when I get to this part, is it recommended to try the same kind of diode for all 4, or can you use random combinations? ie - if I am trying BAT41, do I have to make all four diodes BAT41?
I am socketing them anyway to make them easier to swap out. Just curious if it works better to stick with one kind, or if they can be mixed and matched.
Thanks.
Steve.
You can mix them up or use all the same. Also, try some LEDs too. It just depends on what sounds good to you.
The turn on voltages of the diodes determine the amount of clipping, and consequently different fuzz effects. If you have two diodes that have the same turn on voltage, you get symetric clipping, which has certain harmonic characteristics. If you use two diodes with different turn on voltages, you'll get asymmetric clipping which will sound different than symetric. See: http://www.bteaudio.com/articles/TSS/TSS.html.
Beware of all the diode combinations. It's a slippery slope.
Quote from: Jdansti on February 09, 2014, 07:32:22 PM
You can mix them up or use all the same. Also, try some LEDs too. It just depends on what sounds good to you.
The turn on voltages of the diodes determine the amount of clipping, and consequently different fuzz effects. If you have two diodes that have the same turn on voltage, you get symetric clipping, which has certain harmonic characteristics. If you use two diodes with different turn on voltages, you'll get asymmetric clipping which will sound different than symetric. See: http://www.bteaudio.com/articles/TSS/TSS.html.
Symmetric and asymmetric clipping - thats interesting. Never looked into this before. Will be sure to steer my research in this direction. I'll try not to get too carried away. Might just stick to all similar. Cheers.
Symmetrical clipping tends to favour odd harmonics. If you clip a sine wave (the approximate output of a velocity-modulated woodwind that has no reed, like a flute) you can get a square wave which sounds like a pressure-modulated woodwind with a reed such as a clarinet. If the clipping is asymmetric, you get even-order harmonics and you can make some very different sounds that do not resemble woodwinds. Some clipping diodes have a considerable resistance in series whereas others tend to clip sharply, giving a harsher sound. Design for the sound you want.
Heres my daily noob question...
I've all my resistors soldered in now.
Today I am moving on to Capacitors.
I've been reading up on this to make sure I don't mess up. From what I understand, the larger Capacitors have polarity markings - but the smaller ones, and the little ceramic ones don't have markings and they don't have a particularly polarity or way around to be soldered?? I am starting with a few little 1nf caps.
Is this correct? Also, I've been keeping my resistors pressed down pretty much against the PCB when soldered in. I think I may have read somewhere about Capacitors and overheatings. Am I supposed to leave some space so that the larger caps sit a little higher off the PCB? Or can they also be pressed fully down against the PCB board?
Hope these questions aren't too ridiculous.
Thank you.
usually, the (-) lead is identified on Aluminium electrolitics, or electros, and the (+) lead is marked on tag tantalum (in my experience). either way, these parts are polarised, and you need to put them the correct way. this is where your circuit diagram comes in handy, as it will have all the electros polarity marked on.
size is not a good way to identify diff parts. 1uF film caps can be larger than 1uF electros. and with the larger parts, you want them mechanically supported, so their mass doesn't matter so much under vibrations and shock. this is why we push them down onto the surface of the board if we can, and if they are large and unsupported, we dob hotmelt on them, to provide some rigidity.
so, pres fully down, and find some junk parts and boards to practise soldering on, until you are confident you are making good joints each time.
what comes after the caps?
Quote from: duck_arse on February 10, 2014, 10:26:38 AM
usually, the (-) lead is identified on Aluminium electrolitics, or electros, and the (+) lead is marked on tag tantalum (in my experience). either way, these parts are polarised, and you need to put them the correct way. this is where your circuit diagram comes in handy, as it will have all the electros polarity marked on.
size is not a good way to identify diff parts. 1uF film caps can be larger than 1uF electros. and with the larger parts, you want them mechanically supported, so their mass doesn't matter so much under vibrations and shock. this is why we push them down onto the surface of the board if we can, and if they are large and unsupported, we dob hotmelt on them, to provide some rigidity.
so, pres fully down, and find some junk parts and boards to practise soldering on, until you are confident you are making good joints each time.
what comes after the caps?
Thanks man,
Yea I see on my PCB diagram it clearly marks which way around the polarity goes for the capacitors that have a specific direction, so thats very useful.
I guess after this I move on to Diodes and Transistors - I know I am probably going to socket the Diodes anyway. On my next build I might just build the circuit on a prototyping breadboard first to see which Diode combinations I like the sound of best, then commit to one for the real build. For this one I'd like to socket them to make switching different diodes in and out a little easier. I haven't really read in to if that'll cause any problems with noise yet or not though?
Thanks for the help. :)
someone here, I couldn't find it when I searched, showed us his diode breakout box. it had about a million different diodes of all types, and 2 million (at the very least) DIP switches to select which diodes were in circuit. it was huge!
if you don't use over long wires to and from your diode select switch, it should not be a source of noise.
and get that breadboard. knock things up on that, and you can save all the time and expense of soldering something you don't like. and you can work through all the mods you like, maybe come up w/ some new.
Quote from: duck_arse on February 10, 2014, 10:46:00 AM
someone here, I couldn't find it when I searched, showed us his diode breakout box. it had about a million different diodes of all types, and 2 million (at the very least) DIP switches to select which diodes were in circuit. it was huge!
if you don't use over long wires to and from your diode select switch, it should not be a source of noise.
and get that breadboard. knock things up on that, and you can save all the time and expense of soldering something you don't like. and you can work through all the mods you like, maybe come up w/ some new.
Thanks man - you've been a great help to me today. I find that I learn things much better if I dive in and research as I go. This first project has been a big learning experience with many things noted for my second project! Cheers!
I have a few untagged Caps that I am trying to make sure I have correctly identified.
I'm still not the best at reading the various values as they seem to decimal them slightly differently on differently manufactured varieties.
Here's 3 that I am not 100% sure about. If someone could tell me what value they are. Some or all of these is hopefully a 220n cap. Although maybe some of these are 22uf ?!
Also, is 4.7 uF the same as 4u7 ? ?
Thanks again. Sorry for all the questions - the answers are helping me learn fast!
Cap 1: http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140210_163903_zpse57f2e04.jpg (http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140210_163903_zpse57f2e04.jpg)
Cap 2: http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140210_162924_zps8503940c.jpg (http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140210_162924_zps8503940c.jpg)
Cap 2 again: http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140210_162857_zps23965608.jpg (http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140210_162857_zps23965608.jpg)
I can't view your pictures as I can't open photobucket at work, but never trust letters printed on a cap to be the caps value. I always use this cap calculator to figure it out.
http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/capacitor-code-calculator.php
Ok, no probs. One cap says "0.22 /10" and a second line says "250 MKT"
Another says "220/16 GPF" and another line says "10.77 B41283 B41286"
Still unsure if is 4.7 uF the same as 4u7 ? ?
Some of the caps I've done so far are REALLY squeezed for space. ie they are pushed into each other so much so that they are pushed apart in opposing directions. I take it this is NOT good?
4.7u = 4u7. Same goes for nano farads, so 4.7n = 4n7. It's a lot more common in resistance values, such as 4.7k = 4k7. I believe this is done because decimal points tend to vanish when photocopies and pictures were made of schematics. Dots can be hard to see. With a letter shoved in there it's much harder to mistake 4k7 for 47k than 4.7k.
For the caps - that is some times a problem, but most of the time not. Your layout isn't using anything that gets too hot if populated properly. You don't want a cap or a resistor touching power regulators or other items that are geneally heat synced. Two caps touching each other is not a problem. I'm going to assume you are using the greenie caps. You will be much better off getting the box type caps as they are way smaller and have more standard shapes. But for now, as long as they fit, your likey okay that they are touching.
Make sure that bending them doesn't cause any fracturing of the legs near the body though.
Whats confusing me is that for example, I have a cap that is tagged and labelled as 100n. But if I take a magnifying glass to it, it has 10n F printed onto the cap itself. I used conversion calculators etc online and none of them say that these are the same values? I might be doing something wrong?
Best thing you could get is a MultiMeter with a capacitor setting. I bought one (~ 30$) and I did notice that sometimes parts are mis-labeled. Especially with the ceramics, where 10pF were marked as 1pF, for example.
Unfortunately, my MultiMeter only goes up to 20µF, but then anything above that value is easy enough to read directly on the cap.
Quote from: steveyraff on February 10, 2014, 11:45:12 AM
I have a few untagged Caps that I am trying to make sure I have correctly identified.
I'm still not the best at reading the various values as they seem to decimal them slightly differently on differently manufactured varieties.
Here's 3 that I am not 100% sure about. If someone could tell me what value they are. Some or all of these is hopefully a 220n cap. Although maybe some of these are 22uf ?!
Thanks again. Sorry for all the questions - the answers are helping me learn fast!
Cap 1: (http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140210_163903_zpse57f2e04.jpg)
Cap 2: (http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140210_162924_zps8503940c.jpg)
Cap 2 again: (http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140210_162857_zps23965608.jpg)
Just bumping this up again as its on the previous page now and I haven't managed to work it out for myself yet. Thanks.
P.S Heres the cap with 100n wrote on it in Marker Pen. But as you can see from the actual cap printing, it seems to say 10n F.
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140210_201422_zps896aab76.jpg)
In general:
A) If the number has a decimal, it is
usually in uF. This is the case of the orange ones you have.
The orange electrolytic is 10.77uF (I've never seen one like that). The orange poly is 0.22uF, or 220nF.
EDIT: Your orange electrolytic
might be 220uF/16V. Checking now...
Found it: It is 220uF/16V here's the datasheet: http://pdf.datasheetarchive.com/indexerfiles/Scans-008/Scans-00160485.pdf
B) Three digits on ceramic or polys: the third digit is a multiplier of 10 (0 = x1) and the units are pF.
470 = 47 * 1 = 47pF
471 = 47x10 = 470pF = 0.47nF
472 = 47*100 = 4,700pF = 4.7nF
473 = 47*1,000 = 47,000pF = 47nF
474 = 47* 10,000 = 470,000pF = 470nF
475 = 47*100,000 = 4,700,000pF = 4,700nF = 4.7uF (This would normally be a polarized tantalum)
105 = 10*100,000 = 1,000,000pF = 1,000nF = 1uF (This would normally be a non-polar poly or a tantalum)
C) Sometime the unit is placed where the decimal place would go:
4n7 = 4.7nF
4u7 = 4.7uF
Your blue poly is 10nF.
D) Other letters and numbers pertain to tolerances, voltages, max operating temp, etc. In general, 99.9% of the poly and ceramic caps are fine for stompbox voltages. Watch your electrolytics though. Use at least 16V electrolytic caps for pedals using up to 12V. Go higher as appropriate if your pedal runs at a higher voltage.
Quote from: Hemmel on February 10, 2014, 01:00:20 PM
Best thing you could get is a MultiMeter with a capacitor setting. I bought one (~ 30$) and I did notice that sometimes parts are mis-labeled. Especially with the ceramics, where 10pF were marked as 1pF, for example.
Unfortunately, my MultiMeter only goes up to 20µF, but then anything above that value is easy enough to read directly on the cap.
+1 Or get one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/Capacitance-Meter-DIY-KIT/dp/B00C5TRI3Q
A lot of us on the forum have this one. If you build it, get some help from the forum. I found that there's a diode labeled backwards on the instructions when I built mine.
As far as damaging the caps with heat, they normally stand up well as long as you have a good soldering technique. This is a good video on soldering.
Quote from: Jdansti on February 10, 2014, 04:46:09 PM
In general:
A) If the number has a decimal, it is usually in uF. This is the case of the orange ones you have. The orange electrolytic is 10.77uF (I've never seen one like that). The orange poly is 0.22uF, or 220nF.
EDIT: Your orange electrolytic might be 220uF/16V. Checking now...
Found it: It is 220uF/16V here's the datasheet: http://pdf.datasheetarchive.com/indexerfiles/Scans-008/Scans-00160485.pdf
B) Three digits on ceramic or polys: the third digit is a multiplier of 10 (0 = x1) and the units are pF.
470 = 47 * 1 = 47pF
471 = 47x10 = 470pF = 0.47nF
472 = 47*100 = 4,700pF = 4.7nF
473 = 47*1,000 = 47,000pF - 47nF
474 = 47* 10,000 = 470,000pF = 470nF
475 = 47*100,000 = 4,700,000pF = 4,700nF = 4.7uF (This would normally be a polarized tantalum)
105 = 10*100,000 = 1,000,000pF = 1,000nF = 1uF (This would normally be a non-polar poly or a tantalum)
C) Sometime the unit is placed where the decimal place would go:
4n7 = 4.7nF
4u7 = 4.7uF
Your blue poly is 10nF.
D) Other letters and numbers pertain to tolerances, voltages, max operating temp, etc. In general, 99.9% of the poly and ceramic caps are fine for stompbox voltages. Watch your electrolytics though. Use at least 16V electrolytic caps for pedals using up to 12V. Go higher as appropriate if your pedal runs at a higher voltage.
Quote from: Hemmel on February 10, 2014, 01:00:20 PM
Best thing you could get is a MultiMeter with a capacitor setting. I bought one (~ 30$) and I did notice that sometimes parts are mis-labeled. Especially with the ceramics, where 10pF were marked as 1pF, for example.
Unfortunately, my MultiMeter only goes up to 20µF, but then anything above that value is easy enough to read directly on the cap.
+1 Or get one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/Capacitance-Meter-DIY-KIT/dp/B00C5TRI3Q
A lot of us on the forum have this one. If you build it, get some help from the forum. I found that there's a diode labeled backwards on the instructions when I built mine.
As far as damaging the caps with heat, they normally stand up well as long as you have a good soldering technique. This is a good video on soldering.
Extremely helpful as always. Lots of very useful info here.
I have a multimeter, I think its just a little too basic on functions.
Thanks - helping me each step of the way here :)
When I was doing all my resistors I had to miss out R39 as it said it was a 50K resistor. I can't seem to find a 50k resistor on any of the component website stores I buy from, even the ones specifically aimed at those building stomp boxes etc. Is a 50K resistor rare or something?
Maybe its an error on my build guide and its supposed to be some different kind of resistor in there?
Incase any of you want to see what I am talking about, here is the build guide I am using with schematic and parts lists:
http://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/Darkside/docs/Darkside_ver.2.pdf (http://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/Darkside/docs/Darkside_ver.2.pdf)
I'm doing the older PCB version on the very last page.
Thanks for checking this for me :) Appreciate it. I am a million questions a day at this stage! :icon_confused:
50k is not a common resistor. You usually see 47k and 51k. Given that R39 is on the output, one option would be to use a 47k or 51k resistor. You shouldn't notice much difference. Maybe a slight decrease on bume in volume with the 47k vs the 51k.
Another option is to use either 2 100k resistors in parallel or a 47k and a 3k (3.X) in series to get close to 50k. If it were me, I'd use 47k if I had one. If all you have is 51k, go for it.
Quote from: Jdansti on February 10, 2014, 05:52:55 PM
50k is not a common resistor. You usually see 47k and 51k. Given that R39 is on the output, one option would be to use a 47k or 51k resistor. You shouldn't notice much difference. Maybe a slight decrease on bume with the 47k vs the 51k.
Another option is to use either 2 100k resistors in parallel or a 47k and a 3k (3.X) in series to get close to 50k. If it were me, I'd use 47k if I had one. If all you have is 51k, go for it.
Thanks for confirming that for me. From what I had read, I figured it should be 'safe' for me to solder in a 51K that I happen to have here - but on this steep learning curve I tend to feel I need to be babysat through ever baby step incase I am doing something wrong in ignorance.
I must say - you are all very patient with the shear landslide of queries I am coming in with! Great, fast learning process this way though.
Highly appreciated, thanks!
If your resistors are 5% tolerance, there's a decent chance that the 51k would be 50k anyway. Hell it could even be close to 47k :icon_lol:
Long ago, a 10K 20K 50K 100K sequence WAS common.
However that leaves large gaps of in-between values you can't buy.
Today we use a 10K 15K 22K 33K 47K 68K 82K 100K sequence, so there is no more than 10% gap between nominal values.
R39 seems very odd. There's no real need for it. There's certainly no reason for 50K exactly. I'd leave it out. But you may as well use the 47K or 51K in hand.
In general, "all" audio amplifier components can be +/-10% from the design value. We used to build everything with +/-20% parts. Today you can't buy anything worse than +/-5%. However when you can't find the "right" value on your bench, use anything within 10%.
Quote from: PRR on February 10, 2014, 10:07:45 PM
Long ago, a 10K 20K 50K 100K sequence WAS common.
However that leaves large gaps of in-between values you can't buy.
Today we use a 10K 15K 22K 33K 47K 68K 82K 100K sequence, so there is no more than 10% gap between nominal values.
R39 seems very odd. There's no real need for it. There's certainly no reason for 50K exactly. I'd leave it out. But you may as well use the 47K or 51K in hand.
In general, "all" audio amplifier components can be +/-10% from the design value. We used to build everything with +/-20% parts. Today you can't buy anything worse than +/-5%. However when you can't find the "right" value on your bench, use anything within 10%.
Useful tip, got a better idea of the logic behind it now. I just wasn't sure how much give or take was in allowance before there was noticeable audial change.
it's nice to see a design specify bc549 transistors. they were the industry standard for low noise small signal back when we had manufacturing here in australia, and about all we could get as hobbyists for a long time.
and all the rest of the world transistors are backwards, with regard to the pinout. so, what transistors do you have in front of you, before you solder them in?
Quote from: duck_arse on February 11, 2014, 09:03:14 AM
it's nice to see a design specify bc549 transistors. they were the industry standard for low noise small signal back when we had manufacturing here in australia, and about all we could get as hobbyists for a long time.
and all the rest of the world transistors are backwards, with regard to the pinout. so, what transistors do you have in front of you, before you solder them in?
To be honest - I went a bit component mad any time I've ordered. I've been enjoying the build process so much that even before completing it or knowing if it will work or not, I'm dying to start new builds! So I am stocking up.
As for transistor, I've some BC547B's, BC547 and I've just the one BC549. I've a crapload of different diodes.
all the bc5xx transistors have the same pinout, so you're ok there. it's always best to order 5 or 10 when you only need 1, and 100 when you need 10, cause then you have it later, and need to do less and less ordering. whithin your budget constraints, of course.
have you run the trasistors through the dmm transistor tester yet?
Quote from: duck_arse on February 11, 2014, 10:09:49 AM
all the bc5xx transistors have the same pinout, so you're ok there. it's always best to order 5 or 10 when you only need 1, and 100 when you need 10, cause then you have it later, and need to do less and less ordering. whithin your budget constraints, of course.
have you run the trasistors through the dmm transistor tester yet?
Not yet no. But the transistors were one of the few components I didn't buy. I got them from a relative who works with electronics and he said he had tested them for me. I will be testing them myself again to make sure though. I have a multimeter here, but I have yet to learn to use it - its on my to-do list!
By the way - another thing I've been thinking about. If anyone knows any good drilling templates for 1590B enclosures I'd love to see them. I found a few online but the scale never seems quite right. I need it for designing graphics in GIMP.
EDIT: All good - made my own drilling / graphic template.
Pots Question: So I have to get some more pots for my pedal. It requires
SUS 47kA
TONE 25kB
VOL 10kA
The website I am using lists them only in the value of (K) so I am not quite sure how to work that out yet. Is 47kA and 10kA the same as 47K and 10K, if so what would that make 25kB ? Whats the difference between Log and Linear?
Another questions is that I bought sockets for my transistors but now that I took them home I see that the holes for inserting the plugs into my PCB are in a straight line, but the pins of the sockets are offset in a triangular formation. Why is this? I guess I need to use some of my straight socket strips.
Finally, Question 3: When you guys are placing your PCB into your enclosure, what is the method generally used for securing the PCB in a stable place within the enclosure so that it is not free to rattle around? Its just something that came into my head today.
I think after this I am going to be near completion of my first pedal's circuit.
Thanks for all the help,
Steve.
All good questions.
1) The "A" and "B" designate whether the pot's sweep follows a logarithm or linear taper. A = log and B = linear. The resistance changes in equal amounts per degree of movement on a linear pot. The resistance changes according to a log function on a log pot. Log pots are normally used for volume due to the way our ear perceives the loudness of sound (this is a very sketchy explanation, so you can do an internet search if you want to learn more).
2) The triangular pin configuration used to be more common on transistors, but now days a straight configuration is more common.
(http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q485/jdansti/77D43D4F-2775-4A70-A098-AA0978AF0526.jpg)
You just cut to fit.
3) Some people glue or screw standoffs to the enclosure and screw the PCB to them:
(http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q485/jdansti/DE5EFCF0-23E3-4E78-81D0-DF9F72382F0A.jpg)
Others use double sided sticky foam tape. There are other ways to do it.
Quote from: Jdansti on February 12, 2014, 09:58:55 AM
All good questions.
1) The "A" and "B" designate whether the pot's sweep follows a logarithm or linear taper. A = log and B = linear. The resistance changes in equal amounts per degree of movement on a linear pot. The resistance changes according to a log function on a log pot. Log pots are normally used for volume due to the way our ear perceives the loudness of sound (this is a very sketchy explanation, so you can do an internet search if you want to learn more).
2) The triangular pin configuration used to be more common on transistors, but now days a straight configuration is more common.
(http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q485/jdansti/77D43D4F-2775-4A70-A098-AA0978AF0526.jpg)
You just cut to fit.
3) Some people glue or screw standoffs to the enclosure and screw the PCB to them:
(http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q485/jdansti/DE5EFCF0-23E3-4E78-81D0-DF9F72382F0A.jpg)
Others use double sided sticky foam tape. There are other ways to do it.
Brilliant! Great summary - again, thank you!
47k and 25k are proving hard to find.
Is there some give and take here? Can I use a 50k and a 20k? I am guessing a 20k may cut off some of my accessible range?
apply the 10% rule. any value can usually be replaced by another value, if it is within 10% of the original specified. plus or minus.
(any system that can't survive a 10% change is not stable. I think that's right, but I'll bracket it in case.)
and I realise 25k is not 110% of 20k, but still.
in the UK .. (sorry no idea where you are)
we generally have 47K and 22K pots
in the USA they generally have 50K and 25k pots
because they are just awkward, .. ;D
i doubt its going to make it very noticable/unusable if its not bang on spec.. there are 'tolerances as DA said with components anyway' ..
I'm in the UK. Well, Northern Ireland depending on what your political stance is. Mine is F* Politics lol.
I was just going to go ahead and put 50k and 20k in there, but I was worried it would cut off the range of those pedal functions?
While you're at it, you might want to experiment with a 50k for the tone. You'll eventually use the spare pot in another project. The reason I say this is that most other Muffs use 100k. I'm not sure why Cornish used 25K. It might have something to do with the caps and frequency cut offs. That's beyond my understanding. I'm just saying that while the 20k will probably be fine, it wouldn't hurt to clip a 50k in there too and see if you can hear the difference.
Quote from: Jdansti on February 12, 2014, 11:01:23 AM
While you're at it, you might want to experiment with a 50k for the tone. You'll eventually use the spare pot in another project. The reason I say this is that most other Muffs use 100k. I'm not sure why Cornish used 25K. It might have something to do with the caps and frequency cut offs. That's beyond my understanding. I'm just saying that while the 20k will probably be fine, it wouldn't hurt to clip a 50k in there too and see if you can hear the difference.
Good idea - I'll experiment and see what the difference is. Cheers dude.
yeah @#$% all that political crap!.. make some noise!. :icon_twisted: ;)
Ok - Resistors and Caps all done!
Today is Transistors then Diodes.
1: Heres my first question today... the guide states Transistors 1 to 6 to all be BC549. I have all the sockets in for these, but I do NOT have 6 BC549's. I only have one of those. Then I have two BC547B and three BC547's.
Its still 6 transistors in total. I just don't know how major the sound difference is going to be. These will still work on in the circuit though, right?
2: Also, my 5th Diode is only for polarity protection (or so I've read). It asks for a 1N5401. On most other builds I see a 1N4001. I dont have a 1N5401 but I do have lots of 1N4001, and a very large, beastly looking 1N5822. Is it ok to just use a 1N4001 here? I guess I am just using 9v batteries for now and maybe later a standard UK boss style mains power supply.
3: I have a the 3PDT switch wiring diagram here. The only problem is, the connection terminals on the back of the switch doesn't seem to have any markings whatsoever. This means I am unable to tell if there is a specific way around to start wiring it up. Can someone please explain this to me?
Many thanks.
Steve.
Any takers?
Im on my phone so I cant type much but to address your third question, you dont need any markings. Almost all (if not actually all) 3pdt wiring schemes will have you orient the switch that the solderlugs are oriented horizontally. Now you have three vertical sets of three dual throw switches, hence 3pdt. These are completely interchangeable and as long as you keep "columns" separated, its all the same and you can have many diagrams actually showing the exact same thing while looking completely different. Which schematic are you looking to use?
Quote from: GoranP on February 13, 2014, 12:35:03 PM
Im on my phone so I cant type much but to address your third question, you dont need any markings. Almost all (if not actually all) 3pdt wiring schemes will have you orient the switch that the solderlugs are oriented horizontally. Now you have three vertical sets of three dual throw switches, hence 3pdt. These are completely interchangeable and as long as you keep "columns" separated, its all the same and you can have many diagrams actually showing the exact same thing while looking completely different. Which schematic are you looking to use?
Thanks - at the moment I am using Madbean's version that came with the guide for this particular circuit. You can find the wiring guide I am using HERE: http://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/Darkside/docs/Darkside_ver.2.pdf (http://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/Darkside/docs/Darkside_ver.2.pdf)
I'm also confused as to why all my DC jacks have only 2 lugs - the wiring diagram I have required it to have 3 by the looks of it. ???
Again, I cant type much so check this out and see if it helps
http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages/PedalPower/
That is a thoroughly confusing wiring diagram especially for a new person at this. Your switch will still be held with horizontal lugs as Goran said and it will be situated correctly compared to the PDF. However, the wiring diagram is not true bypass, which you may or may not have known. You also don't even need a 3DPT, a DPDT will do, but if you don't have one, a 3PDT is ok.
Your signal will always see the input buffer as the input jack is hard wired to the input buffer (non true bypass). When the switch is in the effect off position, the input buffer connects to both the output resistor network and the input of the fx buffer. I have never seen this done this way. In the other position, the input buffer and fx buffer are still connected, but are no longer connected to the output resistor network, but the fx output is, giving you a fuzz signal. This is what is happening on the left side of your switch.
On the right side is your LED indicator when switched to ground is on.
Can you show your DC jacks? Are they the standard plastic kind?
Quote from: mth5044 on February 13, 2014, 01:36:44 PM
That is a thoroughly confusing wiring diagram especially for a new person at this. Your switch will still be held with horizontal lugs as Goran said and it will be situated correctly compared to the PDF. However, the wiring diagram is not true bypass, which you may or may not have known. You also don't even need a 3DPT, a DPDT will do, but if you don't have one, a 3PDT is ok.
Your signal will always see the input buffer as the input jack is hard wired to the input buffer (non true bypass). When the switch is in the effect off position, the input buffer connects to both the output resistor network and the input of the fx buffer. I have never seen this done this way. In the other position, the input buffer and fx buffer are still connected, but are no longer connected to the output resistor network, but the fx output is, giving you a fuzz signal. This is what is happening on the left side of your switch.
On the right side is your LED indicator when switched to ground is on.
Can you show your DC jacks? Are they the standard plastic kind?
Aaah! Really? The more I work at this pedal the more I realise I picked a very ambitious one for a beginner to start with. Dammit. I would have preferred True Bypass for sure. I guess its how the original Cornish G-2 was wired. This sheds some light on things I'd read back at the start about how clean the input buffer is on the original G-2. I guess it needs to be if its gonna preserve the signal quality if it is not true by pass and always running through that part of the circuit.
Oh well.
Here is a pic of the DC jack. I've probably wired it wrongly. It had two identical lugs except one was slightly shorter than the other.
This outboard wiring is turning into the most difficult and confusing part for me!!
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140213_185017_zpsfc2182c0.jpg)
Your DC jack will not allow you to disconnect the battery when you plug your adapter into it. If you use that adapter, do not try to wire the battery to it unless you add an additional toggle switch to switch between battery and adapter.
Re true bypass: You can still do it. The pedal isn't a limiting factor. I'm at work right now, but I'll send send you a TBP scheme that will ground the board input during bypass.
I think I have everything wired up as in the diagram for now anyway.
The only thing missing from my circuit now is the transistors.
I have the sockets for them all in. I have a diagram showing me the pinouts too. But my schematic doesnt show me which pin goes where. Anyone care to shed some light on this for me?
I warned you in the second post it was difficult build :icon_lol:
For the trasistors, look at the circuitboard. There are outlines that show the orientation of the transistors. If you look at the data sheets for all your transistors, you can tell if they are the same or not (I believe this was discussed on page one as there are imagines of pinouts there). If they are all same, place them as the silk screen on the PCB shows. I don't always trust the image on the PCB, but Madbean makes very good layouts and I would imagine he took the time to get it right. In my experience it's mostly a problem when it comes to layouts made on DIYLayout program (I think that's the name anyway).
So if you see one of the transistors has an opposite pinout from the 549's on the PCB, rotate the transistor 180 degrees. You should be able to identify what the pins are with the datasheet, schematic and PCB.
Ok guys, I have EVERYTHING wired up now. Its not in its enclosure yet.
I plugged it in for its first test.
Good and bad news. I think something is wrong, but I think it is minor.
When I plug in and turn my amp on - all I hear is lots and lots of noise. Just one big buzz. But when I touch a metal surface with my hand then play the frets with my other hand - it sounds like it works pretty well. I presume this means a grounding issue? I dont think I even have done anything to ground it yet?
Also, I don't have an LED hooked up yet. If you look at the schematic I am using on the very last page of this PDF http://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/Darkside/docs/Darkside_ver.2.pdf (http://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/Darkside/docs/Darkside_ver.2.pdf) you can see on the left hand side, it shows where an LED goes. At the moment, I have two wires soldered in here, they are going no where though. Do I put my LED at the end of them???
If so, which way around??
Thanks.
Steve.
Quote from: mth5044 on February 13, 2014, 04:44:56 PM
I warned you in the second post it was difficult build :icon_lol:
For the trasistors, look at the circuitboard. There are outlines that show the orientation of the transistors. If you look at the data sheets for all your transistors, you can tell if they are the same or not (I believe this was discussed on page one as there are imagines of pinouts there). If they are all same, place them as the silk screen on the PCB shows. I don't always trust the image on the PCB, but Madbean makes very good layouts and I would imagine he took the time to get it right. In my experience it's mostly a problem when it comes to layouts made on DIYLayout program (I think that's the name anyway).
So if you see one of the transistors has an opposite pinout from the 549's on the PCB, rotate the transistor 180 degrees. You should be able to identify what the pins are with the datasheet, schematic and PCB.
You were right - it IS difficult lol. Thanks for the info. If anyone can help me on the problems I've stated in my previous post - it'd be great!
I have the LED working now - but I just need to know how to ground the thing while its out of its enclosure. All I hear is very loud buzzing. But when I touch something metal with my other hand the pedal actually sounds BRILLIANT! Really freakin good! I am very excited now. I just need someone to help me with this last little step and I can rock out for the rest of the night and enjoy my hard work! lol
Almost at the finish line I think.
Steve.
If you have the bypass wired as it is showed, you should have the LED wired to the LED space on the bottom right side of the PCB. Not sure what other part you are talking about.
Everything needs to be grounded to the power jack. People say star grounding is the best way to do it, which is essentially having all ground points connect together at one spot, ideally the power jack. I didn't look toooo hard, but I believe what you need to be grounded are the input and output jacks and the PCB. So three wires going to the negative lug of the power jack, or connecting by the easiest way as your enclosure is laid out.
Quote from: mth5044 on February 13, 2014, 05:16:20 PM
If you have the bypass wired as it is showed, you should have the LED wired to the LED space on the bottom right side of the PCB. Not sure what other part you are talking about.
Everything needs to be grounded to the power jack. People say star grounding is the best way to do it, which is essentially having all ground points connect together at one spot, ideally the power jack. I didn't look toooo hard, but I believe what you need to be grounded are the input and output jacks and the PCB. So three wires going to the negative lug of the power jack, or connecting by the easiest way as your enclosure is laid out.
Hmmm,
I'll try!
So I need to take wires from my neg DC lug to the input and output jacks, and to the PCB board?
Can you tell me a little more specifically, where on the Jacks and PCB board I am connecting these wires please?
All good - Don't have the holes drilled on the enclosure yet, but sort of temporarily clipped the jacks on to the inside edge of the enclosure and it did the trick for test purposes. One problem remains. I'm getting NO SIGNAL when I but the switch to its OFF position.
Take a wire from the DC Jack neg to the Input Jack Sleeve and all the other ground wires are go from the input sleeve then to
1 the out put jack sleeve
2the PCB gorund
etc
Your star ground (google it) point is then the input jack sleeve (which is grounded to the metal enclosure )
Edit; most of the advice I recieved said that having just one ground wire to the pcb is a good way. in other words dont put the star ground on the pcb
It works for me.
Uploaded a little first test drive video to show some of my friends on Facebook who were interested in how it turned out.
Having a lot of fun so far. Tomorrow I just have to figure out why it doesn't work when not turned on. :(
Heres the video - sorry, VERY low quality for now.
http://s597.photobucket.com/user/steveyraff/media/BatDrive_zps6d9c61ef.mp4.html (http://s597.photobucket.com/user/steveyraff/media/BatDrive_zps6d9c61ef.mp4.html)
Quote from: steveyraff on February 13, 2014, 07:12:52 PM
Uploaded a little first test drive video to show some of my friends on Facebook who were interested in how it turned out.
Having a lot of fun so far. Tomorrow I just have to figure out why it doesn't work when not turned on. :(
Heres the video - sorry, VERY low quality for now.
http://s597.photobucket.com/user/steveyraff/media/BatDrive_zps6d9c61ef.mp4.html (http://s597.photobucket.com/user/steveyraff/media/BatDrive_zps6d9c61ef.mp4.html)
So you are not getting dry signal, but you are hearing the effect when it is on. That's progress! That leaves a few things that could have gone wrong. Due to the wiring, we know the input buffer is working as the signal is always routed through there on or off. We know the effect itself is working and we know that the output section is probably working.
That seems like something is wrong with how you wired up the switch... Can you take a picture of your switch and the connections to the PCB and jacks? Please take it from the top, not blurry - use the macro setting on your camera if it has one.
Quote from: steveyraff on February 13, 2014, 10:50:18 AM
Ok - Resistors and Caps all done!
Today is Transistors then Diodes.
1: Heres my first question today... the guide states Transistors 1 to 6 to all be BC549. I have all the sockets in for these, but I do NOT have 6 BC549's. I only have one of those. Then I have two BC547B and three BC547's.
Its still 6 transistors in total. I just don't know how major the sound difference is going to be. These will still work on in the circuit though, right?
2: Also, my 5th Diode is only for polarity protection (or so I've read). It asks for a 1N5401. On most other builds I see a 1N4001. I dont have a 1N5401 but I do have lots of 1N4001, and a very large, beastly looking 1N5822. Is it ok to just use a 1N4001 here? I guess I am just using 9v batteries for now and maybe later a standard UK boss style mains power supply.
............
(I'll leave the switch.)
remember when I asked if you'd put yr trans in the dmm yet? what I meant was for you to test/observe their relative hFE readings. it comes up A LOT hereabouts. as it happens, there are 4 types of BC5xx device, the A, the B, the C and the ( ). a, b, and c are sorted for their hfe, A being the lowest range. the ( ) as in ungraded, types, have not been sorted, and could fall anywhere between the max and min quoted in the specs. and in the case of BC54x and BC55x, there is again three parts in the range (actually a few more), the 5x7, the 5x8 and the 5x9.
the 7's as I remember were the highest voltage rating, but not very high, and not by much. the 9's were the lowest noise parts, for where you wanted to amplify small signals, for example. and the bc548 was about the most ordinary transistor you could get yr hands on.
so, test measur yr trans. put the highest hFE or the bc549 in the buffer position, and then in order as the gain figures drop. or just chuck em on the floor, and put them in as you pick them up. come back, tell us if you could hear a diff.
as for diodes, the 1n4001 will pass 1 amp current, the 5401 will pass 3 amps. use the 400x in pedals, the 540x in power amp power supplies. if you are using a series protection diode, schottky's are often specified, as they have a lower forward voltage drop. a 3 amp diode in the shunt config, as here, will probably detroy your power supply in a fault situation, but it will protect your pedal. that is the protection diode argument, you'll see that here as well.
that'll do from me.
Very interesting replies. Thank you both. This pedal build has been a real steep learning curve for me - but theres no way I'd have taken any of it in and understood it had it not be throughout the course of doing an actual build. So its all been HIGHLY educational. And to think I've only been working on this for a week or two. Its a lot of info to take in but I am glad I got this far and hopefully I can take all this knowledge and learning on to my next build and in turn have to plague the board much less with endless questions about each step !!
I'll research the points you brought up about the various trans types duck_arse.
As for the problem I have with the pedal at the moment - with it being valentines day, and with being locked away in the solitary confinement of my mancave for this last week or two, I was otherwise engaged and didn't get working any more on the circuit in order to begin troubleshooting.
I did get one more little test drive of it though. What I noticed is; it sounds great with all pots turned up to the MAX. Once I lower ANY of them, I get an overall drop in output volume and the amount of drive or clipping seems to decrease a lot. This happens with no matter which one of the Sustain, Tone or Volume pots I manipulate. I don't really understand this yet - but could this in some way be related to the fact that the pedal appears to not pass any signal when its in its OFF position? Like the way a blend or mix control would work, except I don't have any dry signal on tap? I may be way off base in my thinking here.
In regard to what Jdansti said about it still being possible to wire the pedal for True Bypass - I'd be interested in being walked through how to do this.
Thanks as ever! Getting excitingly close to the finish line!
Steve.
If anyone can help me out with the queries in my last post it would be great.
Here are some close up shots that were requested of the wiring etc as it currently sits.
The pots are temporary until Alpha pots arrive.
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140214_193251_zpsb3b49275.jpg)
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140214_193300_zps7e2cb1db.jpg)
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140214_193315_zps96af7b98.jpg)
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140214_193347_zps157e43b7.jpg)
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140214_193401_zps82c49b8f.jpg)
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140214_193411_zpsf684750e.jpg)
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140214_193411_zpsf684750e.jpg)
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140214_193426_zps6eda75ca.jpg)
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140214_193429_zps8f5b6821.jpg)
>I did get one more little test drive of it though. What I noticed is; it sounds great with all pots turned up to the MAX. Once I lower ANY of them, I get an overall drop in output volume and the amount of drive or clipping seems to decrease a lot. This happens with no matter which one of the Sustain, Tone or Volume pots I manipulate. I don't really understand this yet - but could this in some way be related to the fact that the pedal appears to not pass any signal when its in its OFF position? Like the way a blend or mix control would work, except I don't have any dry signal on tap? I may be way off base in my thinking here.
I'm not sure yet what's going on here. Maybe one of the other gents can shed some light on it. In general, the sustain and tone pot will decrease volume. There's usually a balancing act going on. If you start out at 50% sustain and 100% volume and then increase the sustain to 100%, you should have to decrease the volume pot to keep the volume at the same level as it was before. I don't know if that's what you're seeing. I do notice that there may not be a ground wire connected to the sleeve of your output jack. Maybe it's in the shadows, but that could cause trouble.
>In regard to what Jdansti said about it still being possible to wire the pedal for True Bypass - I'd be interested in being walked through how to do this.
These are the wiring schemes that I use on all of my pedals:
Battery OR DC jack only with board input grounded during bypass:
http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/pdf/ggg_sw_3pdt_tb_gi_bat.pdf
Battery AND DC jack with board input grounded during bypass:
http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/pdf/ggg_sw_3pdt_tb_gi_dcj.pdf
You'll see a free-floating LED resistor in the above drawings, but in your case, the resistor resides on your board.
Here's a marked up copy of your board with true bypass switching. You'll have to put a couple of jumpers in as shown. Duck or Matt, would you please verify this drawing?
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q485/jdansti/PagesfromDarkside_ver15-2.jpg
BTW-True bypass doesn't always mean better. Pete Cornish doesn't like true bypass and relies on his buffers in the pedals to overcome loss due to cabling to, from, and on your pedal board.
Finally, I would not leave the battery connected to the DC jack the way you have it. You don't have a switching DC jack. You're asking for trouble if you have a battery attached and plug an adapter in at the same time. If you do that, you can kiss your pedal goodbye. :o
Quote from: Jdansti on February 14, 2014, 04:48:08 PM
>In regard to what Jdansti said about it still being possible to wire the pedal for True Bypass - I'd be interested in being walked through how to do this.
These are the wiring schemes that I use on all of my pedals:
Battery OR DC jack only with board input grounded during bypass:
http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/pdf/ggg_sw_3pdt_tb_gi_bat.pdf
Battery AND DC jack with board input grounded during bypass:
http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/pdf/ggg_sw_3pdt_tb_gi_dcj.pdf
You'll see a free-floating LED resistor in the above drawings, but in your case, the resistor resides on your board.
Here's a marked up copy of your board with true bypass switching. You'll have to put a couple of jumpers in as shown. Duck or Matt, would you please verify this drawing?
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q485/jdansti/PagesfromDarkside_ver15-2.jpg
BTW-True bypass doesn't always mean better. Pete Cornish doesn't like true bypass and relies on his buffers in the pedals to overcome loss due to cabling to, from, and on your pedal board.
Finally, I would not leave the battery connected to the DC jack the way you have it. You don't have a switching DC jack. You're asking for trouble if you have a battery attached and plug an adapter in at the same time. If you do that, you can kiss your pedal goodbye. :o
Great info - thanks. I run a recording studio and its been very busy lately so I won't get looking at the circuit again for a few days. As I am a true novice, I just copied the diagram verbatim with little understanding of it. Thanks for highlighting the DC issue. I'd have probably fried my pedal without realising. You've provided me with info inregards to wiring the pedal for Battery OR DC and also for Battery AND DC power. Can you explain the pros and cons of either? I presumed a Battery is only needed if there is no DC power, and vice versa. Although, I'd like my pedal to be safe if someone accidentally put a battery AND DC in at the same time.
Thanks for the help.
Adapter vs battery is a matter of preference. One option for using a battery with your type of DC jack is to solder a DC plug to the battery snap and use the battery externally in place of the adapter. Watch your polarity if you do this.
You most likely haven't fried the pedal if you plugged in the adapter while the battery was connected. The damage would occur after the battery overheats, leaks, and possibly catches fire.
Quote from: Jdansti on February 15, 2014, 09:49:40 AM
Adapter vs battery is a matter of preference. One option for using a battery with your type of DC jack is to solder a DC plug to the battery snap and use the battery externally in place of the adapter. Watch your polarity if you do this.
You most likely haven't fried the pedal if you plugged in the adapter while the battery was connected. The damage would occur after the battery overheats, leaks, and possibly catches fire.
Yea, I'd just like to use DC power - but have the Battery snap internally incase I ever need Battery as backup. Although it'd be nice to know that if the battery and DC were used together it wouldn't fry immediately.
By the way, if anyone can figure out why I am getting now signal when the pedal is off it'd be great. Really don't know where to start when it comes to troubleshooting this issue. And as I say, I don't know it's related or not, but when any of the 3 pots are turns down the over-all output and gain drops leaving a weak dry signal. Its strange.
Thanks all!
Can you give us more information on "getting signal when the pedal is off"? Do you mean when the pedal is bypassed? Is the signal dry or wet? Does it sound clear and full volume, or affected in some way? Etc...
It's hard to say at this time whether this is related to your volume issues.
Quote from: Jdansti on February 15, 2014, 05:26:54 PM
Can you give us more information on "getting signal when the pedal is off"? Do you mean when the pedal is bypassed? Is the signal dry or wet? Does it sound clear and full volume, or affected in some way? Etc...
It's hard to say at this time whether this is related to your volume issues.
I'm sorry. I know I am being difficult to work with here. I mean when the petal is switched in its off position, there is silence. When I press the switch to engage the pedal, there is full signal with overdrive.
Hope this makes more sense?
Got it- no clean signal in bypass.
I'll study the schematic and layout again and see if I can come up with reasons why the this happening. You might want to draw out your board and off board components on a sheet of paper and draw the wiring connections exactly as they are. Then compare your drawing to the layout and see if you spot any differences.
I've traced out the signal paths. The path when the effect is active is this:
(http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q485/jdansti/D751549A-1903-42FF-99E8-DCCED05377A4.jpg)
The bypass path is this:
(http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q485/jdansti/1C6312D2-70F3-4EE3-86AA-20F8075740E8.jpg)
I would check continuity along the bypass path. Place the switch in bypass mode, disconnect power, place one lead on the input jack tip, and use your other lead to check the path shown in the marked up layout labeled "Bypass". You may be losing the signal somewhere along that path.
If that check turns out fine, then you're shorted to ground somewhere along the bypass path. Check for continuity between the input tip and ground while in bypass mode. If you have continuity, you're going to have to examine the bypass path to figure out where it's shorted. I don't think your problem is on the board because there is no path through the board that is exclusive to the bypass path.
One final thing. Did you confirm that your output jack sleeve is grounded?
Quote from: Jdansti on February 15, 2014, 08:56:42 PM
I've traced out the signal paths. The path when the effect is active is this:
I would check continuity along the bypass path. Place the switch in bypass mode, disconnect power, place one lead on the input jack tip, and use your other lead to check the path shown in the marked up layout labeled "Bypass". You may be losing the signal somewhere along that path.
If that check turns out fine, then you're shorted to ground somewhere along the bypass path. Check for continuity between the input tip and ground while in bypass mode. If you have continuity, you're going to have to examine the bypass path to figure out where it's shorted. I don't think your problem is on the board because there is no path through the board that is exclusive to the bypass path.
One final thing. Did you confirm that your output jack sleeve is grounded?
Hey - thanks so much for this!
Jeez, you guys really do go to great lengths to help out others around here! If anything, your signal traced diagrams help me understand the circuit. I'm still getting my head around everything and I'd been wondering which section of the circuit acts as the buffer - I can see this much more clearly now.
Here comes a stupid alert - so apologies in advanced for making such a silly slip up. It's embarrassing to say what the problem turned out to be! I think MOST of the issue was actually in the little practice amp I have set up for testing the pedal. Its an old solid state Fender Deluxe 112. The problem with this amp is that somewhere between 0 and 1 on the volume control, the amps output goes from silent to extremely loud. It's very sensitive in that tiny first increment.
Turns out, I WAS getting clean signal in bypass. It was just way lower, so low in comparison to the pedals engaged signal, that it couldnt be heard at the low volume I had my amp set at. Does this make sense? I hope I am explaining myself clearly.
There is still a bit of an issue I am not entirely happy with now. The balance between bypass signal and engaged signal seems very off balanced. Maybe its just the way the pedal behaves? It seems like I've almost too much volume on tap via the pedals volume control - its VERY hot. To match the clean signal in bypass, with the pedals engaged signal I have to put the volume control a little less than a quarter of the way up. (This is with sustain and tone controls up full).
On the other hand, maybe its how the pedal works. When I turn the sustain control down, I start losing a lot of volume, so maybe it is expected that you are supposed to make up for that volume loss with the pedals volume control. Possibly the strangest characteristic to me, is that the Tone control also seems to greatly affect both overdrive amount and volume.
Again, maybe this is all normal, and i am supposed to just use the pedals volume control to even out any output loss caused with lower Sustain settings etc.
Thoughts??
is it possible that you have a linear, or "B" taper pot in the volume spot? it should be log to give a smooth volume increase with rotation. this circuit looks basically like most of a big muff to me, so it should behave somewhat similarly. the sustain pot will cut the signal to following stages to almost 0, so it will need to be made up to some extent.
and have you added the ground wire on the out jack?
Quote from: duck_arse on February 16, 2014, 09:06:50 AM
is it possible that you have a linear, or "B" taper pot in the volume spot? it should be log to give a smooth volume increase with rotation. this circuit looks basically like most of a big muff to me, so it should behave somewhat similarly. the sustain pot will cut the signal to following stages to almost 0, so it will need to be made up to some extent.
and have you added the ground wire on the out jack?
Not yet - I had a cancellation in the studio today so I am going to go back to the pedal and ground the out jack. Also, my alpha pots arrived in the post yesterday. I have a large assortment. I was gave the ones I have at the moments to tie me over temporarily so I could test the pedal. Correct values as listed, but unsure if these ones are log or linear. I now have a linear B pot I can put on the volume to make sure though. I guess this is fully working and its just the way the pedal behaves.
Today I also want to look at my switch wiring again. Sounds fine to my ears despite not being True Bypass, but I am worried about this issue John brought up in regards to the battery. I will be using this on DC power, but would like an internal battery snap for backup. Also would like the peace of mind that if I accidentally had battery and DC power running together it wouldn't instantly damage something.
I have cut my PCB to fit into a 1590B box, but its now apparent it definitely wont all fit in there alongside the jacks, switch etc. I need to buy a 1590BB and get it drilled up. I have been creating some graphics in GIMP to put on to it with waterslide decal paper.
Upon further testing - the pedal's volume control is definitely WAY too hot. I mean, it would definitely damage the amp if you have the amplifier at stage volume then accidentally put the pedal on with the pedal's controls up full.
Anyone know the best way around this problem? I like the amount of overdrive its capable of, but the max volume is scary!
Quote from: steveyraff on February 16, 2014, 10:20:05 AM
it would definitely damage the amp
Hmmm... not too likely. Don't confuse "damage the amp" with "seriously hurt your ears"! ;D
Edit: Seriously, check your component values. It's easy to mistake some resistor colours. You can find yellow that looks like orange, orange that looks like red, red that looks like brown, ... Makes a 10:1 difference.
Well, another lesson learnt.
I was testing the pedal out on a little practice amp I rarely use, with an old guitar in my bedroom that I don't play often. It was throwing me off a lot.
I went to the effort of setting up my live rig - my good PRS and my Orange amp. Much, much better. The volume isn't as much of an issue as I'd thought. The tone is a little dark, even with all the mods I did to make it much brighter - but from what I've read, thats just the way this pedal is.
I also A/B'd the bypass signal with the signal I get going straight from guitar to amp, and its pretty much identical - despite the pedal not being True Bypass - so I guess its down to a well designed buffer section. I'm not as worried now about making it true bypass. I still might though.
I can't think of anything else now before boxing. Except the one issue of battery/DC power. I think if I was trying to fit it into a regular standard 1590 B box, I'd go for DC Power only. But since it looks like this will require a bigger 1590BB - I'll probably have enough room in there for a battery too. Haven't done my research yet to figure out how to make it safe for battery/DC at once if done accidentally.
Glad you got it all worked out! We often forget to check all of the things that we should check first when troubleshooting-the guitar, the cables, the amp, power, etc.
I don't know if you've seen this, but this link shows the schematic which might help you understand the buffer and switching arrangement. There's also a drilling template for a BB box.
http://download1463.mediafire.com/8upvfmn8l5fg/a8ii16j0i2wsdrs/Darkside_ver1.5.pdf
Re DC power, you'll need a jack like the one shown below. Stay with plastic to avoid shorting your power supply. Here's a good link that explains how to do it:
http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages/PedalPower/
(http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q485/jdansti/4D71CEDC-A1CD-4D9A-9CA8-8C3CA48A53C7.jpg)
Good luck boxing it up. Beware that working pedals often stop working after they're in the box, but magically start working again when removed. ;)
Quote from: steveyraff on February 16, 2014, 12:52:20 PM
Haven't done my research yet to figure out how to make it safe for battery/DC at once if done accidentally.
Use one of these, Steve:
(http://www.rapidonline.com/catalogueimages/Module/M400550P01WL.jpg) (http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/2-1mm-Chassis-Mounting-Single-Hole-Fixing-DC-Power-Socket-2pt-20-0988)
Then wire it up like this:
(http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages/PedalPower/PowerJack1.gif) (http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages/PedalPower/)
(c/o Beavis)Inserting the DC jack cuts the battery connection.
Edit: John got there first! Must be good advice! :D
Btw- if you've socketed the diodes, try a couple of 3mm LEDs in D1 and D2 and 1N4148s for D3 and D4. Granted, it won't sound the same as the Cornish version, but I used this configuration on a similar build and I like it better than the Ge diodes as shown on the original scheme.
If you've found a couple of diode configurations you like and you're really feeling adventurous, you can make the diodes selectable with switches. You can use two SPDT switches as shown below or just one. You can also use rotary switches if you want even more options. The diodes shown below are just examples. Try 1N400x or any other silicon diode if you don't have any 1N4148s.
(http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q485/jdansti/F90B92A0-64FA-4F27-B264-4F9FACB3FD1A.jpg)
EDIT: I forgot to mention that if you do the off-board diode switching, you eliminate the diodes from the PCB and run the wires from the off-board diode and switch wires to the points on the PCB where the diodes should go.
there is a way t work your dualing power sources.
to circuit (+)
|
|------------------|<|------- (+) from external supply
|
|
|----------|<|------ (+) from internal battery
do they look like 1N400x's? the two diodes form an or-gate, with the highest voltage winning, and powering the circuit. the external would need to be slightly higher than the newest batttery to work, but it could be a solution.
and hurrah! another working pedal.
^Cool! I learned something!
OT: Coincidentally we we're taking about dynamical analogies on the recent "old book" thread and I just realized an analogy between your diode scheme and one that we use at work for backup gas pressure.
If you need a backup gas supply for some operation, you can use two compressed gas sources with a regulator on each and plumb the output of each regulator together. You set one regulator at a slightly higher pressure than the other. Now the gas flows only from the regulator at the higher setting until its gas supply becomes lower than the regulator setting of the lower regulator. When this happens, the lower regulator takes over automatically, delivering gas from the second source.
Quote from: duck_arse on February 17, 2014, 08:44:55 AM
there is a way t work your dualing power sources.
to circuit (+)
|
|------------------|<|------- (+) from external supply
|
|
|----------|<|------ (+) from internal battery
do they look like 1N400x's? the two diodes form an or-gate, with the highest voltage winning, and powering the circuit. the external would need to be slightly higher than the newest batttery to work, but it could be a solution.
and hurrah! another working pedal.
I'm sorry, through shear ignorance, I don't really understand this. I have one 1n400x in the position I believe is related to my power supply protection.
I thought John and Bluebunny's previous posts solved my problem? I read the more detailed description of how it works with the Beavis Audio link John kindly supplied. I am guessing if I wire it up like that, the power from the battery automatically disconnects when I insert the DC power supply.
One thing that slightly confuses me - I've been buying all my parts from Doctor Tweak so far and it seems brilliant, but why does he only supply DC sockets with two lugs instead of 3 ?
I'll not getting finishing this build until next week with my increased work load - but one thing I would really like to know. Before I ask, I know I could save you all the bother and research this myself, but if anyone even knows a useful link to point me in the right direction, it would sure save me the time. Its a question about safety when working with DC power on self pedal builds. The thought instantly scares me a little. I can only presume in my ignorant mind, that it may not be as dangerous as I would suspect as the adaptor on the common boss style power supply regulates the voltage going into the pedal to a safe 9v, removing my risk of frying myself when poking around in a pedal connected to my 13amp wall socket ??
I am loving my pedal build so far n all - but I don't want death to be a risk lol.
Thanks guys.
Edit - by the way John. Since seeing your sketch up of Diode switching abilities, I've checked out a few examples online and love the idea. But maybe I'll leave it for a future build when I feel more confident - thanks!
Duck was just giving you another option that would work with your 2 lug DC jack. Diodes only allow current to flow in one direction (generally), so the adapter wouldn't be trying to charge the battery. Sounds like you're in the UK, so maybe someone can give you a good source of parts over there. A lot of people (including me) order from Tayda in China or somewhere over in the east. They're pretty good for 99% of what they sell.
Regarding safety, it's good that you're thinking of that. You're pretty safe as long as you're dealing with 9V batteries and the low voltage end of adapters. The adapter manufacturer has ready taken care of the dangerous mains voltage side of things. Just don't mess with mains voltages. There's more danger of frying components on your PCB due to incorrect voltages, AC instead of DC, or reverse polarity than frying yourself.
Quote from: steveyraff on February 17, 2014, 06:03:11 PM
I thought John and Bluebunny's previous posts solved my problem? I read the more detailed description of how it works with the Beavis Audio link John kindly supplied. I am guessing if I wire it up like that, the power from the battery automatically disconnects when I insert the DC power supply.
Yep, exactly so.
Quote
One thing that slightly confuses me - I've been buying all my parts from Doctor Tweak so far and it seems brilliant, but why does he only supply DC sockets with two lugs instead of 3 ?
Steve's a top bloke. If you ask nicely, he would probably try to add items to his stock list if he sees a demand. (He has in the past.) Rapid (see previous link) are also good for most stuff; and Bitsbox.
Heres one for y'all. Although I'm not back working with my pedal yet - I was on a lunch break at the studio and couldn't resist a quick jam on it.
I was testing how well it responds to rolling back the volume pot on the guitar.
I noticed I started to get a nasty octaver effect that made chords sound horrible. I had all my pedals pots up full, but with the guitar's volume pot down by 3/4's so that it was giving a cleaner sound. It's definitely not useable like that.
I think I read about this happening some other pedals overdrive pedal builds. Can someone clue me in on possible problems and troubleshooting for when I have the time ??
Many thanks,
Steve.
> a backup gas supply for some operation
Similar but not quite the same. Except the nature of a "gas regulator" makes it a one-way valve for many situations.
Say you have 125 PSI gas from the street, but sometimes it goes-out. You have a 100 PSI bottle for reserve. You can't stand (or won't be bothered) to manually cut-over.
If you plumb in direct parallel, the street-gas fills your bottle, maybe excessively. If no blow, then when the street gas goes out your bottle carries your load AND all the other loads on the street.
(You are soldering jewelry with a wisp of gas, next door the pizza place's massive oven is gulping gas, you do NOT want them getting your reserve gas.)
With one-way valves, your tank won't be filled from the street, and the street won't be back-fed from your tank.
The pressures (natural or regulated) do matter. Duck's plan is fine as long as the external supply voltage is a bit higher than the battery voltage. Try that with a 9V battery and a 6V supply, the battery will carry the load until it drains to 6V. (Which is why you set your pressure regulators so the prime supply is higher than the reserve supply by enough to overcome reg stiction.)
Any ideas on my octaver problem guys?
This is only a guess, but assuming everything has been built correctly, if you're using all Ge diodes, I could see this happening. Since you socketed the clipping diodes, it would be a simple test to replace the Ges with LEDs or silicon diodes such as 1N914, 1N4148, or 1N400x and see if you get the same result.
Quote from: Jdansti on February 19, 2014, 01:18:43 PM
This is only a guess, but assuming everything has been built correctly, if you're using all Ge diodes, I could see this happening. Since you socketed the clipping diodes, it would be a simple test to replace the Ges with LEDs or silicon diodes such as 1N914, 1N4148, or 1N400x and see if you get the same result.
All BAT41's - 2 in each clipping stage. I thought that wouldnt be a problem. Won't get trying a different combo until later, but it disappoints me as I really liked the sound I was getting with all BAT41's and I had planned on keeping them all in. :-\
The BAT41s might be fine. It sounds like you had it sounding better at some point in the past, so maybe something happened while you were working on it. Are you using your PRS and Orange?
Quote from: Jdansti on February 19, 2014, 06:33:22 PM
The BAT41s might be fine. It sounds like you had it sounding better at some point in the past, so maybe something happened while you were working on it. Are you using your PRS and Orange?
I think it still sounds as good as ever it did - and i haven't moved it on my desk - or changed any gear. The problem is that I never tried it with the volume on my guitar rolled back before. Only then do I notice this octave effect creeping in. I will upload a video of the problem when I get the time. I have to do sound at the theatre all day tomorrow so maybe Friday or Saturday.
Sorry - I haven't had much time to get working on it properly lately.
Can't seem to find out what this octave effect is or where it comes from.
Hey remember you guys told me to ground the out jack? On most veros, it shows where to connect on the board for ground. I'm still a total noob and using a PCB here so I am not sure where I am going to and from exactly when soldering on a grounding wire to the out jack. Can someone please fill me in?
Using a "star" grounding arrangement would be usual. So you pick a point - often the input jack's ground lug - and bring all the ground connections to that point. So your PCB's "GND" would connect there. And so would your output jack's ground lug. And your DC power jack's negative terminal.
Quote from: bluebunny on February 21, 2014, 04:52:49 PM
Using a "star" grounding arrangement would be usual. So you pick a point - often the input jack's ground lug - and bring all the ground connections to that point. So your PCB's "GND" would connect there. And so would your output jack's ground lug. And your DC power jack's negative terminal.
So - grounding my out jack would mean taking a wire from the output jacks ground lug to a point marked GND on my PCB? Well, on my PCB there is no where marked GND so I am confused where I am supposed to be soldering this to?
:icon_confused:
You're right, there is no pad marked ground, which is just another aspect that makes this project more confusing.
The ground point on your PCB is S9. You will not run a wire from there to the output jack as you said. As bluebunny said, a star ground will connect all the ground points together. So, if you use your input jack, connected to the sleeve will be the power supply ground, the PCB ground, the output jack ground and if there is a ground on the bypass switch, that as well.
Quote from: mth5044 on February 21, 2014, 05:25:23 PM
You're right, there is no pad marked ground, which is just another aspect that makes this project more confusing.
The ground point on your PCB is S9. You will not run a wire from there to the output jack as you said. As bluebunny said, a star ground will connect all the ground points together. So, if you use your input jack, connected to the sleeve will be the power supply ground, the PCB ground, the output jack ground and if there is a ground on the bypass switch, that as well.
Ok - glad you are agreeing with me that it makes this a more confusing first build, and its not entirely my stupidity.
I hear what you are saying, but I have wired it as it shows it in the diagram: Input sleeve to power supply ground, PCB ground is going to the same power supply ground so isn't that the same as connecting it to the input sleeve ground as its connected to the same power supply ground lug? In that case, the only thing I'd have left to do is connect the output jack ground to S9 (The PCB ground).
Please, correct me if I am wrong here - I am trying desperately to work this all out.
On a side note, I thought this wasn't necessary once its in its enclosure as the jacks would be then grounded to the enclosure itself?
As long as all of the grounds are connected and you can take your meter and show continuity between any two grounds, you should be fine. What the guys are trying to help you do is avoid ground loops (Google it) which can cause your pedal to be noisy. You can avoid ground loops by using a star ground technique.
Regarding the metal enclosure providing ground, you're correct that it can, but it could be a problem if you don't have a good connection to the enclosure due to a loose jack or paint. Using a wire also allows you to test the circuit outside of the enclosure.
Finally getting around to finishing this. A friend wants me to make him one now too. But I think once I iron out all these mods and finer details, the second one will be much quicker to build.
Since this circuit is already quite large, I noticed it is going to take up most of the room in a 1590BB - so I removed the battery snap and just put in a 2.1mm 9v power socket.
The octave issue I have doesn't seem to be as prominent now that I have both moved to 9v mains power, and replaced my temporary pots the Alpha Pots. It seems to only happen if my pedal volume pots are all up MAX and then I roll my guitar back. If I even just put the pedals volume pot back a touch, its gone.
I have done MOST of the mods Mad bean suggests to rid the pedal of its inherent bassiness. Its still a little too bassy for me. Well, thats the wrong word - I don't mind if some settings are dark, its a different issue. When I switch to neck pickup, and roll back the pedals tone at all, it sounds very ... 'farty'. Like a breaking up, dying amplifier kind of muddiness. Still, that might be just the way it is.
I'm going to do all the mods - the only one I haven't done is replacing the 47kA Sustain pot with a 500kB pot, and adding a 470pF cap between lugs 3 and 2.
I'll try it. By the way, I can't find a 470pF cap on my usual online stores. I tried to work it out in uF but it tells me its something like 0.000047uF. Would the cap I am looking for be a 0.47uF by any chance?
I use a reference like this all the time.
http://www.justradios.com/uFnFpF.html
470pF = .00047uF
MC
Quote from: italianguy63 on February 27, 2014, 03:03:44 PM
I use a reference like this all the time.
http://www.justradios.com/uFnFpF.html
470pF = .00047uF
MC
I was afraid you'd say that. Obviously, the shop I use dont not list a ".00047uf". And there is no signs of a 470pf any where on this shop either. Darn it. Shopping somewhere else for one component isn't maximising combined shipping savings...
knock yourself out
10 pence each
(not affilliated)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Packs-of-Ceramic-Disc-Capacitors-50V-/130861981972?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&var=&hash=item1e77fb6114#ht_327wt_723
Thanks Kipper.
I actually found some on the site I use anyway (Doctor Tweek). I had already accumulated a substantial checkout basket and really wanted to get them on the same postage. I just had been looking in the wrong area.
Sorry for that - I am guilty of thinking out loud on this board before doing my research correctly.
Speaking of thinking out loud before doing my research... can anyone advise me on somewhere to go that specifies which drill bit sizes are used for particular roles, ie Alpha pot, 1/4 jack, 5mm LED etc holes ???
Thank you all again!
Thinking aloud seems to be one of my problems here too.
It's like I've got typing Tourette's.:)
Check here for component hole sizes.
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=30945.msg211925#msg211925
There are probably other references on the forum.
Edit:
Btw, the cleanest way to drill holes is with a drill press, but you can use a hand held drill. My hand held drill holes are never round. Also, beware that the bit will probably grab the enclosure and spin it, whacking you hard on the hand unless you anchor it with a vise or a strong clamp.
> I can't find a 470pF cap on my usual online stores ... (Doctor Tweek).
Search? "Your search for 470pFd yielded no results". Gee, thanks, Doctor.
Caps?
http://doctortweek.co.uk/shop/page/13?shop_param
Uhh,, so you gotta know what kind of stuff a 470pFd is made of.
I happen to know that a 470pFd "ceramic" will be an excellent cap at a good price. But how would _you_ know that??
OK, suppose you guessed right. First: the site's navigation URL is a huge ugly SessionID string which probably will not work for somebody else (like people helping you). From some URL insight I did get this URL:
http://doctortweek.co.uk/shop/category_35/Capacitors-Ceramic.html
They got 100pFd, so we may be in the right aisle. But also 100nFd and 1pFd(!!), but no 470pFd. And no real sorting, except most of the stuff starts with "1". Maybe there is another page? Ah, the teeny numbers at bottom. No clue which one hides "470pFd". And when I found it (on page 3-of-4, at least today) it has another ugly SessionID URL. The base URL seems to be:
http://doctortweek.co.uk/shop/catalog/browse?shop_param=shop_overview_pager%3D3%26cid%3D56%26
Right column second entry is 470pFd.
http://doctortweek.co.uk/shop/article_334/470pF.html?shop_param=cid%3D56%26aid%3D334%26
Five pennies and zero weight.
>Five pennies and zero weight.
Must be made of ceramic photons. At least the shipping should be free.
Thanks PRR. Indeed, I searched for it and it yielded no results. Embarrassingly, I ended up emailing him to which he immediately replied and told me it was there and where to look for it. Doh. So, in the end up, it was my own lack of patience in not finding it. I think during a build, the more over excited I get about finishing it, the more I get ahead of myself.
John - thank you for the advice. A friend recently told me he just through out a good drill press from the university he works in. AAARGH! So yea, the hand held and vice clamp will just have to do, unfortunately.
Oh well!
Quote from: PRR on February 27, 2014, 10:39:48 PM
> I can't find a 470pF cap on my usual online stores ... (Doctor Tweek).
Search? "Your search for 470pFd yielded no results". Gee, thanks, Doctor.
Caps?
http://doctortweek.co.uk/shop/page/13?shop_param
Uhh,, so you gotta know what kind of stuff a 470pFd is made of.
I happen to know that a 470pFd "ceramic" will be an excellent cap at a good price. But how would _you_ know that??
OK, suppose you guessed right. First: the site's navigation URL is a huge ugly SessionID string which probably will not work for somebody else (like people helping you). From some URL insight I did get this URL:
http://doctortweek.co.uk/shop/category_35/Capacitors-Ceramic.html
They got 100pFd, so we may be in the right aisle. But also 100nFd and 1pFd(!!), but no 470pFd. And no real sorting, except most of the stuff starts with "1". Maybe there is another page? Ah, the teeny numbers at bottom. No clue which one hides "470pFd". And when I found it (on page 3-of-4, at least today) it has another ugly SessionID URL. The base URL seems to be:
http://doctortweek.co.uk/shop/catalog/browse?shop_param=shop_overview_pager%3D3%26cid%3D56%26
Right column second entry is 470pFd.
http://doctortweek.co.uk/shop/article_334/470pF.html?shop_param=cid%3D56%26aid%3D334%26
Five pennies and zero weight.
>
it was my own lack of patience in not finding it.Perhaps so; but how many hours (minutes even!) should we spend looking for
a 5-cent part? ("We" being both you and DrTweek's helpful staff.)
I shouldn't tell Doctor Tweak how to run his store. BUT I think a simple one-column list would work. Instead of ten to a page with your eyes jerking left-right to scan for the value, then clicking "Next" to do it some more, IMHO this would be more shop-able:
QuoteCapacitors Ceramic -
they may be fug ugly...but you got to love 'em.
100nF Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
100pF Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
10nF Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
10pF Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
120pF Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
150pF Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
15pF Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
180pF Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
1nF Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
1pF Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
470pF Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
blah.. Detailed view 0.05 GBP ADD
You can *find* the 470pF in two seconds of single vertical eye-scan.
Re. drilling: I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but get a step drill - something like this:
(http://www.rapidonline.com/catalogueimages/Product/S89-4432P01WL.jpg) (http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Equipment/Step-Drill-4-12mm-89-4432) (clickable)
Should cover you for everything from LEDs and pots to stomp switches. (But not XLRs.) BTW, also get a plain ol' 3mm HSS drill bit for naked 3mm LEDs.
Do you guys normally use Single Core cable for hooking up footswitches and potentiometers etc ? ?
A friend of mine who works with electronics reckons stranded multicore is better as it wont break as easily when moved around.
Thoughts?
P.S
Bought a step drill bit. Cheers.
I get printer/scsi cables. cut/chuck the plugs (computers, who needs em?), split the sheath, and there you have 37 or more colours of 7/00 something stranded hookup wire, complete with thinner than normal insulation, which helps keep bundle sizes down.
you'll probably need to practise on this stuff, so's you don't melt the insulation when soldering.
my method, others vary.
I prefer 22AWG stranded over solid. If you're a pro and can slip everything into the enclosure without moving the wiring around much, then solid is ok. But if you're like me, the wiring gets flexed a lot and I end up with broken wire when using solid.
Quote from: steveyraff on March 04, 2014, 07:45:01 AM
Do you guys normally use Single Core cable for hooking up footswitches and potentiometers etc ? ?
A friend of mine who works with electronics reckons stranded multicore is better as it wont break as easily when moved around.
Do what your friend suggests. ;)
Quote
P.S
Bought a step drill bit. Cheers.
Cool. 8)
Quote from: duck_arse on March 04, 2014, 09:16:29 AM
I get printer/scsi cables. cut/chuck the plugs (computers, who needs em?), split the sheath, and there you have 37 or more colours of 7/00 something stranded hookup wire, complete with thinner than normal insulation, which helps keep bundle sizes down.
you'll probably need to practise on this stuff, so's you don't melt the insulation when soldering.
my method, others vary.
Thats a brilliant idea actually!
Still, I might take
John's advice and try stranded this time. I never used it on my first build, but I did have problems with a few wire ends breaking free of their solder joint when moving them around. Maybe I'll try stranded for my latest build and see its easier.
Thanks again all.
Quote from: steveyraff on March 04, 2014, 10:23:23 AM
Still, I might take John's advice and try stranded this time. I never used it on my first build, but I did have problems with a few wire ends breaking free of their solder joint when moving them around. Maybe I'll try stranded for my latest build and see its easier.
Told ya so! ;) Yeah, use stranded for off-board wiring and keep the single core for jumpers on your board. Keep at it, Steve - you'll crack it! :)
Quote from: bluebunny on March 04, 2014, 10:33:24 AM
Quote from: steveyraff on March 04, 2014, 10:23:23 AM
Still, I might take John's advice and try stranded this time. I never used it on my first build, but I did have problems with a few wire ends breaking free of their solder joint when moving them around. Maybe I'll try stranded for my latest build and see its easier.
Told ya so! ;) Yeah, use stranded for off-board wiring and keep the single core for jumpers on your board. Keep at it, Steve - you'll crack it! :)
Slowly but surely man - soon I'll stop pestering everyone with my amateurish questions!!! :D
Nah, keep 'em coming. Makes me feel good that I can actually offer a reply on these rare occasions! ;D
Quote from: steveyraff on March 04, 2014, 10:23:23 AM
Thats a brilliant idea actually!
Still, I might take John's advice and try stranded this time. I never used it on my first build, but I did have problems with a few wire ends breaking free of their solder joint when moving them around. Maybe I'll try stranded for my latest build and see its easier.
Thanks again all.
Is the wire breaking, or the solder joint? The way you describe it sounds like the solder is removing from the joing, in which case, you are getting cold solder joints and you'd need to go over them. If the actual wire is breaking and the solder is staying in place, then yeah, @#$% solid core. @#$% it anyway.
Quote from: mth5044 on March 04, 2014, 12:00:52 PM
Quote from: steveyraff on March 04, 2014, 10:23:23 AM
Thats a brilliant idea actually!
Still, I might take John's advice and try stranded this time. I never used it on my first build, but I did have problems with a few wire ends breaking free of their solder joint when moving them around. Maybe I'll try stranded for my latest build and see its easier.
Thanks again all.
Is the wire breaking, or the solder joint? The way you describe it sounds like the solder is removing from the joing, in which case, you are getting cold solder joints and you'd need to go over them. If the actual wire is breaking and the solder is staying in place, then yeah, @#$% solid core. @#$% it anyway.
The solder joints are fine - I'm explaining myself badly. I aint speakin good english proper. F Solid core then. F it to f. Thanks man!
I forgot to mention that when using stranded, you need to tin if first. Just in case you have never done this, after you strip the insulation from the end, twist the strands into a neat unit with no stray strands stickng out. Then apply solder to the bare strands. This will help insure a good solder joint when you solder the wire to something.
Hey guys,
I know you've told me before about the ability to give or take some value, but I just want to ask again.
This has been a difficult build, so for fun I am making a Super Hard On (...the pedal, I swear). I have everything I need except a 5K1 resistor. I DO however, have a 5K6. Would this make a Major difference ?
Steve
EDIT: Ugh! I just realised I don't have one of those anymore either. Dammit. Nevermind. I know what you are saying, try two in series. I've already cut the vero board for this one. Boo!
Unlikely to make much difference, but the two component solutions to get within 1% are:
Series:
390.0 + 4700.0 = 5090.0
1200.0 + 3900.0 = 5100.0
1800.0 + 3300.0 = 5100.0
Parallel:
56000.0 || 5600.0 = 5090.9
wish you success !
Steve: if you're really stuck, and patient, just PM me an address and I'll pop a couple in the post to you.
Steve you said you already cut the vero board, and I sorta am taking from this you think you cant run the 2 resistors in series to make the correct value because of space.
One resistor in each hole , so their sticking straight up and the long leads are in the air, twist those together and solder, their in series now. I've had to do this on a few occasions. Just in case you didn't think you could fit em in, you can :)
And Rixen gave you some nice common value resistors to try in series to get the 5k1 (5.1K , 5100)
If you have an android device there's an app called Electrodroid that has a lot of nice features like resistor value series/parallel , voltage dividers heck tons of things even pin outs for cables etc. It's pretty handy.
Quote from: bluebunny on March 05, 2014, 03:26:13 AM
Steve: if you're really stuck, and patient, just PM me an address and I'll pop a couple in the post to you.
How very kind! It's ok, I've already ordered them - I don't mind. I am doing A LOT of ordering these days, but its because I am buying like 20 at a time to stock up. Then it'll slow down when I can just restock parts.
John thanks for the soldering tips - I was pretty much doing that already. I've looked at a lot of soldering technique video tutorials back when I started this project.
Also, I got that resistor value calculator app thingie. Cheers.
Heres a question...
This is one I often wonder about while I am ordering. Sometimes, if I am looking for a cap - I find the correct value, but I am offered the same value with similar stats in different forms - ie the same value as a box cap, a ceramic, Green Cap, WIMA or Film. So far, I generally avoid ceramic for no other reason than the others appear visually more substantial and robust. I most commonly order Green Caps for the scientific reason that they resemble tasty Chiclet candy.
Any idiot proof way of working out the best kind to go for, for general pedal builds?
Cheers.
Quote from: steveyraff on March 05, 2014, 10:01:46 AM
Any idiot proof way of working out the best kind to go for, for general pedal builds?
Purdy is good! ;D Seriously, box caps will be good for pretty much anything: they're small and uniform (and cheap). Greenies look great but take up more space. Use disc ceramics for power supply decoupling (right up close to ICs). And all of these will be good for pedal-sized voltages. For electrolytics, just make sure you get ones with a high-enough voltage rating. 10V might be marginal. Aim for 16V and up. And Rapid do a nice selection of sub-miniature ones that take up very little space.
Quote from: bluebunny on March 05, 2014, 10:09:59 AM
Quote from: steveyraff on March 05, 2014, 10:01:46 AM
Any idiot proof way of working out the best kind to go for, for general pedal builds?
Purdy is good! ;D Seriously, box caps will be good for pretty much anything: they're small and uniform (and cheap). Greenies look great but take up more space. Use disc ceramics for power supply decoupling (right up close to ICs). And all of these will be good for pedal-sized voltages. For electrolytics, just make sure you get ones with a high-enough voltage rating. 10V might be marginal. Aim for 16V and up. And Rapid do a nice selection of sub-miniature ones that take up very little space.
Thats exactly the info I needed. That was quick! Another order going in then. Woohoo. Cheers man.
Actually, another quick question:
For my first build I was socketing all my transistors and diodes. I did this so I could swap them out easily to hear any audible differences. Now - if I am making the same pedal again, and I already know which diodes and transistors I am going to use, do I still have to socket them? A friend told me to always socket transistors to avoid over heating or something - not sure if there is any truth in this?
Also, if any components are being left in their sockets can you trim the stems down and do you have to solder them into the socket when finished? They seem stuck in securely enough to me - but I don't like how high they sit up.
On a side note - I find sockets the trickiest things to solder in. When you flip the board over, they just fall out. Holding them in place is no good because you need two hands to solder with. What I usually do now is take needle-nose pliers to bend the socket stems out away from each other, making them grab onto the board themselves before soldering.
Cheers all.
You can't overheat Silicon with a soldering iron.
Sockets are troublesome. Perhaps justifiable for experimentation, not for gigging.
Quote from: PRR on March 05, 2014, 12:25:42 PM
You can't overheat Silicon with a soldering iron.
Sockets are troublesome. Perhaps justifiable for experimentation, not for gigging.
Thanks - just as long as I know I don't
have to socket anything for reasons other than experimentation.
Cheers.
Quote from: steveyraff on March 05, 2014, 12:05:07 PM
When you flip the board over, they just fall out.
Elastic bands. :icon_biggrin:
And if the board is small enough, a paper clip can do the job too: this has the benefit of the two loops on the paper clip being a different size, so when it clamps the top, the bottom is left free for soldering.
>This is one I often wonder about while I am ordering. Sometimes, if I am looking for a cap - I find the correct value, but I am offered the same value with similar stats in different forms - ie the same value as a box cap, a ceramic, Green Cap, WIMA or Film. So far, I generally avoid ceramic for no other reason than the others appear visually more substantial and robust. I most commonly order Green Caps for the scientific reason that they resemble tasty Chiclet candy.
Something to watch is the lead spacing. 5mm hole centers for caps are pretty common on PCBs, and perfboard and stripboard generally have 2.5mm hole centers. Most values of box caps come with 5mm lead spacings which works well with all three types of mountings.
Quote from: steveyraff on March 05, 2014, 12:05:07 PM
For my first build I was socketing all my transistors and diodes. I did this so I could swap them out easily to hear any audible differences. Now - if I am making the same pedal again, and I already know which diodes and transistors I am going to use, do I still have to socket them? A friend told me to always socket transistors to avoid over heating or something - not sure if there is any truth in this?
Also, if any components are being left in their sockets can you trim the stems down and do you have to solder them into the socket when finished? They seem stuck in securely enough to me - but I don't like how high they sit up.
seeing as you know the parts you'll use, next time you only need to chuck those parts into the breadboard to make sure they all tikkety-boo 100%, then you don't need sockets. once you got's enough practice soldering, you don't need sockets. there are some hereabouts that use sockets on their builds everytime, and when they got the keeper parts found and fitted. they bust off the plastic and solder the part to the socket pins.
if yer paying money for sockets, and then fitting 2c transistors in same, practise your soldering, save money, improve reliabillity. sell those sockets to your mate.
as for caps, the very small values come cheap (ceramic) or expensive (silver mica or styroseal). and although the greencaps are cheap, colourfull and plentiful, they will usually be a pin spacing half-way between the holes in yer board. (and oddly fat and bulging, sometimes.) this always drives me crazy, so I use box caps.
Ok guys,
Noob quiestions of the day.
While I am waiting to box this pedal, I started working on a easier project for fun. A Super Hard-On booster.
This is my first build to vero board. The Madbean project is good in that theres a step to step guide. On this project I bascially just have to follow the picture.
I am getting a little confused with my pot orientation. I am not sure what perspective these layouts are taken from, which side of the pot I am looking at etc. On top of that, there may be the added confusion that this is a REVERSE pot. So whatever perspective the lugs are labelled 1, 2, 3 from, this one may be the opposite anyway?
I have no idea if I am making any sense.
HERE is the tagboard layout I am following: http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/zvex-super-hard-on-updated-version.html (http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/zvex-super-hard-on-updated-version.html)
HERE are a few pics of my vero - which way around am I supposed to be reading this?:
Perspective A (Which I always Presumed was correct, and 1 - 2 -3 from left to right while looking this way).
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140307_135222_zpse1b6519a.jpg)
Perspective B (Which I presumed is NOT the way these layouts look at the pots)
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140307_135302_zps5b115e82.jpg)
Is it as the first pic shows, but the lugs are orientated the opposite way around because its a reverse pot?
Sorry again for my usual avalanche of queries.
P.S - I can never find a proper guide to soldering these Alpha Pots online. Does it go through the hole and wrap back around onto itself over the lug then soldered at both points or something? Very unsure about the correct method.
pot mounting first. the pots you have are for pcb mounting. the intention is for the pins to go through the board itself, no wires needed. for "flying leads", manufacturers offer solder lug terminations. these are the tags w/ the hole in the middle.
however. we all usually just make do, or booger, bodgie, kludge with what we have at hand. so, without using the rivet hole (it may allow the rivet to loosen, or a shorted wire to the case) wrap the wire you have, in this case solid core makes it easier, around the end of the pin. squeeze it w/ pliers or otherwise hold it so it doesn't move, and solder. that's all there is to it.
you can, of course, cut a tiny bit of vero board ~5x3 ?, and push it onto the pins, and solder. then solder a stranded wire into another of the holes along the pin tracks. that way you keep the blokes at alpha happy by correct use of their product, and you keep me happy by correct use of stranded wire, and you keep yourself happy because the end result is reliable and component-stress free.
to orientation. turn the pot down, as if a volume control. that direction is anti- or counterclockwise. the wiper is now at the ccw pin. this end is cold, and will most often be nearest the ground, as in this case. the other, cw terminal, is hot, and the full signal comes in there. the middle, common, centre or wiper is the output, the variable. think in terms of ccw and cw, instead of 1,2,3, and the confusion will generally disappear.
as for "reverse", it describes the curve of the change of resistance relative to the rotation of the shaft. the resistance at the wiper still increases as you turn cw, but it increases at a different rate. the pot itself is not reversed.
is that a socket I see?
Quote from: duck_arse on March 07, 2014, 09:42:26 AM
pot mounting first. the pots you have are for pcb mounting. the intention is for the pins to go through the board itself, no wires needed. for "flying leads", manufacturers offer solder lug terminations. these are the tags w/ the hole in the middle.
however. we all usually just make do, or booger, bodgie, kludge with what we have at hand. so, without using the rivet hole (it may allow the rivet to loosen, or a shorted wire to the case) wrap the wire you have, in this case solid core makes it easier, around the end of the pin. squeeze it w/ pliers or otherwise hold it so it doesn't move, and solder. that's all there is to it.
you can, of course, cut a tiny bit of vero board ~5x3 ?, and push it onto the pins, and solder. then solder a stranded wire into another of the holes along the pin tracks. that way you keep the blokes at alpha happy by correct use of their product, and you keep me happy by correct use of stranded wire, and you keep yourself happy because the end result is reliable and component-stress free.
to orientation. turn the pot down, as if a volume control. that direction is anti- or counterclockwise. the wiper is now at the ccw pin. this end is cold, and will most often be nearest the ground, as in this case. the other, cw terminal, is hot, and the full signal comes in there. the middle, common, centre or wiper is the output, the variable. think in terms of ccw and cw, instead of 1,2,3, and the confusion will generally disappear.
as for "reverse", it describes the curve of the change of resistance relative to the rotation of the shaft. the resistance at the wiper still increases as you turn cw, but it increases at a different rate. the pot itself is not reversed.
is that a socket I see?
Very well explained.
On my first build (the one not boxed in yet), I just used pliers to wrap and crimp the single core wire around the pin/lug of the pot. That held it in place and I soldered it on then, without using the hole. So I guess this is the way I should stick with, yea?
Great explanation about the pot orientation. Understanding, and thinking in terms about how it actually functions, solves the confusion.
YES! Thats IS a socket you spotted. I put that socket in before my prior questions in regards to the subject were answered.
I'm making another copy of the more complicated drive pedal that this thread is actually about. This time, I am NOT socketing any of the Diodes or Transistors. I still often wonder why my friend seemed insistent that if I didn't socket these, they'd definitely be damaged. Did he mean just through the heat of soldering? I'm lot better with my soldering now and more speedy, there isn't as much time for heat to build anymore.
Thanks for listening to my queries and providing very useful help and tips. Its highly appreciated.
P.S
I've been trying to move to stranded wire for my wiring. Trouble is, when I tin the ends, they never fit through the PCB or vero board holes.
I use insulation tape to hold the sockets in place on the componants side then solder one leg. I mostly build perfboard builds. It works for pcb's too.
Remove the tape and solder in the other componants legs etc
The reason I use sockets in most of my builds is because if I'm not going to box it I can reuse the transistor for another build.
show us how thick is your stranded wire? you need to twist the loose strands tight before you tin, so the end won't splay/fray/spread. you only need enuff solder to hold the strands together in a bunch. there is a frowned upon technique, where you get rid of excess tinning solder by banging the hand holding the wire with still hot solder on the bench. this will flick the extra off, but you never know where it will go ....
Mostly on my thigh if I remember correctly Duck pops.
I'm a nude solderer, so I don't use that technique too much.
I'm also a nude cooker, but cooking bacon has never been a problem :icon_confused:
Sometimes you get an unnoticeable thick section of solder near the end. I use some sharp wire cutters to snip off the end at a steep angle after I tin. This makes it kinda pointy and helps to thread it through the PCB hole.
http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/zvex-super-hard-on-updated-version.html (http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/zvex-super-hard-on-updated-version.html)
Can you guys help me finish this side project I'm working on?
I have it all finished - its just the offboard wiring confusing me. I was following the mad bean standardised offboard wiring diagram (http://www.madbeanpedals.com/tutorials/downloads/StandardWiring_MBP.pdf (http://www.madbeanpedals.com/tutorials/downloads/StandardWiring_MBP.pdf)) , but on this circuit, there seems to be a different method of wiring in the LED? And what is VE? In most builds I've seen, the LED and a resistor goes between the switch and the DC input. So I am not sure how to wire this one up and where that LED + VE cable is supposed to be going?
VE+ is the positive side of the LED. Follow the off board wiring diagram but omit the resistor since it's already on the board and connect the VE+ to the long lead of your LED. The neg lead of the LED connects to the switch as shown.
Quote from: Jdansti on March 10, 2014, 01:01:30 PM
VE+ is the positive side of the LED. Follow the off board wiring diagram but omit the resistor since it's already on the board and connect the VE+ to the long lead of your LED. The neg lead of the LED connects to the switch as shown.
Thanks.
I've done everything as shown, but I ain't getting any signal at all. Wether its bypassed or not. For a brief moment, I got bypassed signal.
I'll send a few photos of my offboard wiring. I must have messed it up somewhere along the way, somehow. Oh and my LED isn't working - although I am pretty sure its getting power so it might be a dud LED. I can hear a little bit of background noise when the pedal is switched on so something must be going through somewhere.
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140310_172514_zps3afd98bc.jpg)
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140310_172441_zps7f7ac769.jpg)
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140310_172527_zps4782db32.jpg)
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140310_172508_zps74cbb348.jpg)
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140310_172532_zpsd3c0c56d.jpg)
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140310_172425_zpsec8357e5.jpg)
Good attempt, but I see some beginner's mistakes. Unfortunately, the off board diagram doesn't do a good job of showing the power jack terminals, and this led you to connect it incorrectly.
It's hard to tell from the photos, but is the purple wire connected to the lug that is riveted in the center of the jack? Once I know this, I can help you more.
Here's how the jack should be connected. Follow this and connect the board ground, switch ground, and 1/4" jack grounds all to the same point, such as one of the 1/4" jack sleeves or the power jack ground as shown below.
(http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q485/jdansti/C4801335-F048-4084-84B5-113A8A99BE65.jpg)
Quote from: Jdansti on March 10, 2014, 02:25:54 PM
Good attempt, but I see some beginner's mistakes. Unfortunately, the off board diagram doesn't do a good job of showing the power jack terminals, and this led you to connect it incorrectly.
It's hard to tell from the photos, but is the purple wire connected to the lug that is riveted in the center of the jack? Once I know this, I can help you more.
Some help would be great, thanks John. As you can probably tell from this, and the questions I had about my last pedal - Off Board Wiring is what I struggle with the most.
So from PCB Input, to switch centre lug. From PCB Output, to switch upper right lug. From PCB 9V to DC Lug (via purple wire, not sure if this is the correct DC Lug to go to?). Middle DC socket lug to battery snap positive. Battery snap minus to jacksocket Sleeve. PCB LED + VE to LED Annode, then LED Cathode (flat side) to the switches upper left lug.
By the way, I am confused as to my orientation here... is the jack socket on the left for Input? I presumed it is. If so, input jack tip lug to switches bottom right lug. The sleeve to switches lower left lug. The output jack TIP lug to switch middle right lug. The Pot's two lugs connected to switches bottom left lug.
On the switch I have the bottom left, middle left, bottom middle lugs all connected. I also have a jumper connecting the switches bottom right lug to the top middle lug.
I think this explains ALL my off board wiring. I have looked carefully to see if anything is touching one another, but so far I can't see anything like that.
At the last minute I panicked a bit and oddly connected the input jack socket sleeve with the other jacks tip lug. I think this is wrong anyway ?
Plenty of noob errors here I am sure. :'(
Take a look at this too its good reference.
http://generalguitargadgets.com/pdf/ggg_sw_3pdt_tb_gi_dcj.pdf
Quote from: Mustachio on March 10, 2014, 02:48:46 PM
Take a look at this too its good reference.
http://generalguitargadgets.com/pdf/ggg_sw_3pdt_tb_gi_dcj.pdf
I guess I could try rewiring it that way Mustachio. Although I am confused as to why it seems completely different to the way I've currently done it following the other diagrams.
EDIT: Whatever I've done - I am now getting bypassed signal. When I engage the pedal, as I first press the switch, the LED comes on very brightly, but instantly fades down until it looks barely on.
Any ideas?DOUBLE BONUS EDIT: Ok, I think its something to do with a little jumper I put into the switch to join up what I think are grounds. I toggled the little wire about and suddenly the LED glowed brighter. Now the effect seems to be 'sort of' working. I am getting signal with the pedal engaged, and the pot is working, but I feel something is not quite right. It definitely seems a lot darker than normal, and when the pot is turned all the way down, the engaged signal is quite a bit lower and darker than the bypassed signal. I soldered the jumper cable a little better. Definitely doesn't sound anything like I think it should though.
Quote from: steveyraff on March 10, 2014, 02:59:54 PM
and when the pot is turned all the way down, the engaged signal is quite a bit lower and darker than the bypassed signal. I soldered the jumper cable a little better. Definitely doesn't sound anything like I think it should though.
When you turn the pot lower, the volume goes down. What are you expecting to happen, it goes up? :icon_lol:
For the dark tone, check that you have the correct value input cap.
Quote from: mth5044 on March 10, 2014, 03:56:37 PM
Quote from: steveyraff on March 10, 2014, 02:59:54 PM
and when the pot is turned all the way down, the engaged signal is quite a bit lower and darker than the bypassed signal. I soldered the jumper cable a little better. Definitely doesn't sound anything like I think it should though.
When you turn the pot lower, the volume goes down. What are you expecting to happen, it goes up? :icon_lol:
For the dark tone, check that you have the correct value input cap.
Lol - Oh I understand that part. I just listened to a lot of Super Hard On reviews and my understanding was that when the pot was down fully, it would be the same volume as the bypassed signal. The values are all correct (I hadn't many to go wrong with!). It is very dark sounding. From a lot of audio and written reviews, it was my understanding that it would be the opposite if anything - a brighter sound when engaged. Instead, it gets darker as the pedal's pot is increased.
Very strange.
I'm not at home to look at my sho right now and this wifi connections tenuous but I will say I'd get some practice soldering before doing those switchs. As seen in the 3pdt thread if you overheat the terminals too much then the epoxy cracks and the switch can go bad.
Been there. And it's an expensive lesson when the whole board costs less than the switch.
I use the left over resistor legs to make the jumpers on the switch and solder just enough to allow the solder to flow and get a good mechanical bond.
Can I ask what type of solder you are using.
I use low melt 60/40 lead stuff.
Also I think the fact you are using single strand wiring is not helping. I use seven strand and tin the ends before doing switches and pots.
I also tin the pot and switch connections before hand. Tinning the wire ends allows you to cut the ends short before soldering the two together. If the wires insulation shrinks back a bit get that as close to the connection as possible and then you can trim the through hole wires after.
Sorry if I'm teaching my granny to suck eggs but I thought it might just help
Rich
Quote from: Kipper4 on March 10, 2014, 05:34:07 PM
I'm not at home to look at my sho right now and this wifi connections tenuous but I will say I'd get some practice soldering before doing those switchs. As seen in the 3pdt thread if you overheat the terminals too much then the epoxy cracks and the switch can go bad.
Been there. And it's an expensive lesson when the whole board costs less than the switch.
I use the left over resistor legs to make the jumpers on the switch and solder just enough to allow the solder to flow and get a good mechanical bond.
Can I ask what type of solder you are using.
I use low melt 60/40 lead stuff.
Also I think the fact you are using single strand wiring is not helping. I use seven strand and tin the ends before doing switches and pots.
I also tin the pot and switch connections before hand. Tinning the wire ends allows you to cut the ends short before soldering the two together. If the wires insulation shrinks back a bit get that as close to the connection as possible and then you can trim the through hole wires after.
Sorry if I'm teaching my granny to suck eggs but I thought it might just help
Rich
I think my soldering is OK at the moment. I am using 60/40 too. I mostly used stranded wire on this build, but yea, theres a few single core ones in there that I'd left over.
I am thinking of stripping my switch and starting it over again tomorrow. It was obvious I'd done something wrong or shoddily there since it started working again when I added more solder to the jumpers. I think I'll just remove the battery clip because I honestly never use those so its just adding extra complications to my novice off board wiring problems.
Asides from all of this, I've been listening to more SHO clone and original pedal demos and this one definitely sounds a lot darker with a volume dip at unity gain. When the gain is up full, its dark and not as tight, a very muddy broken sounding distortion. I am sure my 5K1 resistors are correct, but the different colour codes on those on the example pictures throws me a bit. Cap values are definitely correct, and its the correct diode.
Disappointing as I just did this on the side as a quick reward because of the other pedal I'm doing being a bit of a beastly build. Oh well. :'( :'(
Thanks for the help so far.
No luck with the Super Hard On. Either that or I just don't like it and its nothing like how I thought it sounded on demo's.
However, I did make a successful copy of the Pete Cornish G-2. This one has a lot more of the suggested Cap mods to help with brightness. Despite these, there is little to no difference between it and my original version without the mods.
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/IMG_20140311_205652_zpsb9f935ca.jpg)
Its a great pedal, but the low end is very loose which takes away from its usability. I tend to only use fully open tone settings with it. Its a really excellent overdrive, reminiscent of my Orange Dual Terror's overdrive channel. I find the Tone control useless for my tastes as the darkness it dials in when rolled back makes the overdrive loose sounding, like... 'farting'.
By the way, why are some pots functioning the wrong way around? Does it mean I've them wired in the wrong order? Also, I'm making a mess because the stranded wire I bought is too thick and I have to keep trimming the ends down. Someone here mentioned they use 7 strand? That always seems about right when I trim it down to that. Is there a certain name for that kind?
I'll enclose these pedals in the next few days and post some pics and audio demos. Thanks all for the help all the way.
Any suggestions on other good overdrives to try? I was thinking something fairly high gain. Was going to go for the Triple Wreck but it looks like another beast of a build.
Which schematic did you use for the g2 ?
And what size input cap did you use? This can make a huge difference to the overall tone of a pedal.
Quote from: Kipper4 on March 11, 2014, 07:07:29 PM
Which schematic did you use for the g2 ?
And what size input cap did you use? This can make a huge difference to the overall tone of a pedal.
How do I identify the input cap? If you say C1 I will kick myself, as it and the Sustain Pot mod are the only two suggested which I did not carry out! I'm guessing with it being located beside the input it is C1?? :-\ I used the schematic on the last page; 'Single Side for Etching': http://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/Darkside/docs/Darkside_ver.2.pdf (http://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/Darkside/docs/Darkside_ver.2.pdf)
The input buffers input decoupling cap is C1
And the fx input buffer decoupling cap is C5
Quote from: Kipper4 on March 11, 2014, 07:15:33 PM
The input buffers input decoupling cap is C1
And the fx input buffer decoupling cap is C5
Dammit! Back to the soldering iron I go then...
Thanks. I'll get the hang of this eventually. :sigh:
I would imagine you want to fuss with C5. If you play with C1, it will impact both the effected and bypassed signal.
Quote from: mth5044 on March 11, 2014, 07:17:21 PM
I would imagine you want to fuss with C5. If you play with C1, it will impact both the effected and bypassed signal.
I figured - as it is not a true bypass pedal and the bypass signal actually goes through the buffer, right? The buffer sounds nice and clean and natural, so I'll leave it.
I will double check what I have done to C5 so far if anything. The other cap mods didn't seem to do much. I really just wanted to tighten up the low end over drive. I tried a lot of transistors and diodes and it didn't solve it. I am sticking with BAT41's as I found their tone most pleasant for the clipping sections.
Thanks again.
Suggested mods on the PDF
See middle of page 3 (mods) if you find it a bit bassy etc
What Myth said +1
Quote from: Kipper4 on March 11, 2014, 07:21:54 PM
Suggested mods on the PDF
See middle of page 3 (mods) if you find it a bit bassy etc
I've already done them all except C1, C5 and the Sustain Pot mod. All other suggested cap mods are done with little to no difference.
Looking over the pedal today. So it turns out I DID do the C5 mod. It really doesn't make much difference.
Anyway - my problem is not with how dark it is really. As stated earlier, its more to do with how loose and farty the low end overdrive sounds. If it had tighter bottom end it'd be just dandy.
I might try one of the only remaining mods - the cap between the 3&2 lugs of the gain pot.
Speaking of Pots. I am sure this is a very amateurish question - but can someone please explain to me why my pots seem to be working the wrong way around? Turning the pots CCW seems to increase volume, gain etc. Is this something easily fixed, have I just done something awesomely stupid?
Thanks.
You know the way you describe the problems with the boost makes me think you have a wrong value resistor , I'd double check em all maybe take voltage on the transistor and post em.
As for the pot working backwards, Switch the wires on the 2 outside lugs . So lug 1 move to 3 and 3 move to 1 leave the center and it will work the right way around.
As for the low end farts, since you have sockets for your diodes. If you have some silicon diodes such as 1n400x, 1n4148, or 1n914, try those in place of your current diodes and see if if still sounds farty.
I'd still take Jim's advice and check the resistor.
Thanks guys. I'm now on my second build of this pedal. The first build was my sort of prototyping build - so everything on there is socketed. This second build is all soldered straight in.
I know that the resistors of both builds are all 100% correct.
On the first socketed build, I swapped out the BAT41's with various other diodes. I was expecting a much bigger difference than it turned out to make. Nothing very noticeable.
The transistors suggested were BC549's. I used BC549B's as I couldn't find anything else. Would this make THAT much of a difference?
Also - perhaps this farty loose sound is just how the low end response behaves on this pedal? I thought it was something I could amend but maybe its just a characteristic of the pedals sound?
wire sizing - get yr straded, strip some insulation off. now count the strands. and the diameter of each strand? this gives you "the size", as in 7/0.023. it's been thirty something years since I've used an imperial diameter, so don't ask me what a real one might be. I looks in my jaycar cat and see they are listing (metric sized) 13/0.12 as their "hook-up" wire. 20A mains is listed as "7/0.67".
the stuff frum printer cables is seven strand, some small diameter.
as for your pot problems, I thort we'd identified ccw. when you "turn down the volume", you turn it counter-clockwise, whether the shaft is pointing to or away from you.
Quote from: duck_arse on March 13, 2014, 10:36:16 AM
wire sizing - get yr straded, strip some insulation off. now count the strands. and the diameter of each strand? this gives you "the size", as in 7/0.023. it's been thirty something years since I've used an imperial diameter, so don't ask me what a real one might be. I looks in my jaycar cat and see they are listing (metric sized) 13/0.12 as their "hook-up" wire. 20A mains is listed as "7/0.67".
the stuff frum printer cables is seven strand, some small diameter.
as for your pot problems, I thort we'd identified ccw. when you "turn down the volume", you turn it counter-clockwise, whether the shaft is pointing to or away from you.
Got some 7 strand - much better.
Yea, we did identify CCW, but in my dumbassery I obviously still @#$%ed something up. I assumed full CCW would be Lug 1. Obviously, this assumption would have been correct, but I didn't notice the PCB diagram labelled them as 3, 2, 1 on the board. So to make that work, I'd have had to wire the pots in facing away from me - which is just that bit more awkward as they aren't sitting flat on their backs then.
Good times! :icon_eek:
So asides from that, with every anti-bass Mod now carried out (except for the different Sustain Pot and, C1), I guess this pedal will always just naturally have a loose, farty low end overdrive. I still like it a lot, as long as I stick to the bridge pickup with the Tone control fully open on the pedal.
Anyways - the only issue that still remains, on both of these I made, is the slight octave/pitch offset sound when using high gain settings with the guitars volume control rolled back. I don't understand how this would happen on two versions I made of the pedal.
Maybe it's the nature of the pedal? There are tons and tons and literally probably a ton of different drive pedals out there. Some of them are different - perhaps this one (even though it was complicated) is not for you!
You might like the Scuba Muff by JMKPCBs. It's basically Big Muff Diver with a switch to select a different set of clipping diodes. I've built two of them and I really like the wide variety of distortion/fuzz I get from it. It also has a switch that cuts out one set of clipping diodes which makes it sound more Tube Screamer-ish. The nice thing is for $10 you get a really nice prefabbed board. I could get spoiled to using JMK's boards. Another thing, JMK (Jacob) is on the forum. He's helped me with troubleshooting and is very friendly.
Here's the link to the Scuba Muff.
http://jmkpcbs.com/product/scuba-muff/
Matt - from my research, it IS the nature of this pedal. In fact, if anything, people have commented on the irony of doing all these mods to make it less dark and muddy, when thats sort of the point and feature of this pedal.
Quote from: Jdansti on March 14, 2014, 04:08:34 PM
You might like the Scuba Muff by JMKPCBs. It's basically Big Muff Diver with a switch to select a different set of clipping diodes. I've built two of them and I really like the wide variety of distortion/fuzz I get from it. It also has a switch that cuts out one set of clipping diodes which makes it sound more Tube Screamer-ish. The nice thing is for $10 you get a really nice prefabbed board. I could get spoiled to using JMK's boards. Another thing, JMK (Jacob) is on the forum. He's helped me with troubleshooting and is very friendly.
Here's the link to the Scuba Muff.
http://jmkpcbs.com/product/scuba-muff/
This sounds good! Very cool. I am not sure what I am after. I think I liked this pedal because it was a challenge, it was a little complex, but unlike a lot of pedals I'd researched, it was complex yet straight forward. For example, a lot of other complex overdrive builds I looked into starting with had discussions about JFETS and IC chips that needed to be measured and matched, biased and trimmed etc. As of now, I know nothing about all of this. I will get into that later I am sure. I guess I just liked the idea of a reasonable challenge!
With this in mind, I like being able to mod, being able to experiment with Diodes, caps, trans, pots etc - have a pedal I can sort of call my own in a way. For this reason I am not mad into the idea of going for a prefab board for my next project. I'm probably just getting ahead of myself - I already want to go straight to the tweaking and customising without perfecting straight copies.
John, I've kept in mind the tip you showed me on this thread about the diode selector switch to add into any pedal I make - I definitely want to try this sometime soon. Although I was a little put off after socketing the diodes on this pedal and finding surprisingly little difference between them. Still, maybe in another build it'd be really cool!
I tried the Super Hard On but it came out sounding NOTHING like any of the video demos I listened to. And I am very meticulous and double checked the whole build. Really expected it to be much more straight forward. Its very dark and a little non-responsive.
I was contemplating a Timmy or Zen Drive. They've been demonstrated with some cool mods and additions.
So far, I have a sense of great accomplishment - couldn't have done it without you guys. Ive designed some nice graphics for my enclosure and I look forward to showing you guys the work you all helped me with.
When it is boxed etc - I will use my recording studio (www.outlandstudios.co.uk) to make a proper studio recorded demo of its sounds, and upload it to youtube for you all to check out.
I gave up on the weird pitch, octave issue I mentioned earlier. It came through on a 3RD BUILD! Lol. Its a minor quirk that will never surface at stage volumes anyway.
Glad you're having a good time with it and feeling accomplished. I on the other hand am having a rough time with Deadastronaut's Abductor Delay. All I get a lot of squeals. :(
Regarding the diodes sounding the same, there are some discussions on the forum about the turn on voltage of different diodes and how that affects the clipping. There are also ways to use different transistors as clipping components. Some searching on the forum and the web will yield a lot of information.
Just thinking about the final touches.
I'm putting my graphics on to water slide decal paper and applying them to the enclosure - then sealing it all with clear top coat.
I was following John Coopers excellent guide here: http://youtu.be/e2X_HL-4F90 (http://youtu.be/e2X_HL-4F90)
Now, he used a Polyacrylic clear top coat in Satin. Most other people, I've seen using Polyurethane clear coat in Gloss.
I guess the question I have is, when it comes to Polyurethane does it matter much on if it is Gloss or Satin, and also, if it is solvent based, will that damage the decal in anyway or is it safe to use? I noticed that John Coopers was Water Based.
I had my eye on this Polyurethane, Solvent Based, Gloss varnish: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/British-made-Marine-quality-polyurethane-varnish-/201049412063?pt=UK_DIY_Material_Paint_Varnish_MJ&hash=item2ecf7a91df (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/British-made-Marine-quality-polyurethane-varnish-/201049412063?pt=UK_DIY_Material_Paint_Varnish_MJ&hash=item2ecf7a91df)
Beware of marine grade. I've come across it in the past thinking it would be idea for a wooden project that I wanted to be absolutely water proof.
However it was water proof but it didn't go off, go hard like expected it too. Since it's intended for boats.
It just ended up a gooey mess.
Just saying beware.
Ok thats worth keeping in mind. Thanks Kipper.
Well - I guess I still would like to know if 'solvent-based' is safe enough to use with water slide decals - if anyone knows?
I can't find this info anywhere.
It's been a long time since I've used water slide decals, but I think that the solvent based varnish caused the clear places on the decals to turn white. I can't say that I'm very sure of that.
Something else to consider is whether you're using inkjet or laser printing. Inkjet might have some issues with water based finishes. You might want to search the forum for "water slide decals". There may be some tutorials.
Edit: read this. http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=104431.0
Quote from: Jdansti on March 19, 2014, 05:58:11 PM
It's been a long time since I've used water slide decals, but I think that the solvent based varnish caused the clear places on the decals to turn white. I can't say that I'm very sure of that.
Something else to consider is whether you're using inkjet or laser printing. Inkjet might have some issues with water based finishes. You might want to search the forum for "water slide decals". There may be some tutorials.
Edit: read this. http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=104431.0
Thanks as always John. I had searched, but never came across that thread. It seems oil based finishes either leave an amber tint after curing, or can dissolve the paint, making it soft. I wonder is that the same for solvent based?
I should probably go for water-based and play it safe.
Also never thought about sanding and buffing until I read this. Good tip though.
Decal went on today.
Scrapped the first one as I got a crease in it from trying to hard to get every bubble out.
Second try worked a little better. Followed the advice found in many youtube videos, as well as this board on how to apply them correctly.
I think its on as good as I am ever gonna get it. Maybe I have a bad quality paper or something though. Heres what happens; I apply the decal on my enclosure, then place and position it, then wipe it off with wet fingers and push the air bubbles off over the sides. I push the bubbles out using wet fingers, I've tried kitchen paper, clean sponges etc. Either way, I get it so I am happy, not a bubble in sight.
THEN - Within the first few minutes of drying, the whole decal surface becomes textured. It begins to look the same way an enamel finish would, this seems to be caused but 100's of tiny, little mini bubbles all across the surface. Hard to describe, harder to photograph. It literally looks like a textured enamel finish. I actually don't mind it much, and I presume it'll stay put once I start applying clear coat over it for a few layers. I just wonder is this normal. I am starting to think that its the actual decal layer shrivelling or warping that causes it - this leads me to suspect my paper isn't as good a quality as it could be. It was very expensive so I figured it'd be fine.
I wonder am I treating my surface properly. I buy my 1590BB's pre painted white. I just clean the surface with water and a cloth then leave a very small amount of water on the surface. The first time I thought perhaps I left too much water on the surface - second time I used hardly any to the same outcome.
Steve.
Ok , so the enamel bubbly effect on the decal was liveable.
THEN I tried to seal it with a layer of polyurethane clear coat. DISASTER.
The polyurethane doesn't seem to like the decal paper and it instantly crinkled up upon contact. I've probably messed this whole enclosure up at this stage. Cant see this all coming off again.
I feel like just buying new paper AND buying new Acrylic spray online. I have to buy both these online as I can't find them locally. I already spend about £30 on all this so I'm going to have to spend that AGAIN. I'm pretty frustrated right now.
I'm opening a bottle of wine...
Goodnight.
EDIT: Here's a thought. If this blistering was made even worse when I tried to seal the decal on with a clear coat layer - perhaps the problem is the polyurethane coat. Maybe its the spray that is warping the plastic on the decal paper??
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/IMG_20140326_212226_zpsdef4e508.jpg)
Oh man I wish I could help you out there Stevie but I've never done water slide decal.
Quote from: Kipper4 on March 26, 2014, 06:09:04 PM
Oh man I wish I could help you out there Stevie but I've never done water slide decal.
Took everything off down to the white paint using the girlfriends nail polish remover. I'm gonna buy acrylic clear coat and try that tomorrow night.
I really think its something to do with the chemicals in this polyurethane spray reacting with the thin plastic decal membrane. It smells strongly of solvent - I think its causing it to pucker up. I need something gentler. On this board a lot of people speak highly of Krylon Acrylic clear coat spray. It costs a fortune though. Sigh....
Your in the uk right?
I'm not sure this clear coat I use will work with decals but I can't see why it wouldn't.
I use
Rust-olium crystal clear
It costs around 7 squid in my local hardware store
This is the stuff
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rust-Oleum-Crystal-Clear-Gloss-Spray-Paint-Protective-Top-Coat-400ml-/170830231158?pt=UK_DIY_Material_Paint_Varnish_MJ&hash=item27c6467676
And here's a post I found by searching the forum about decals
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=69155.0
Quote from: Kipper4 on March 26, 2014, 06:20:27 PM
Your in the uk right?
I'm not sure this clear coat I use will work with decals but I can't see why it wouldn't.
I use
Rust-olium crystal clear
It costs around 7 squid in my local hardware store
This is the stuff
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rust-Oleum-Crystal-Clear-Gloss-Spray-Paint-Protective-Top-Coat-400ml-/170830231158?pt=UK_DIY_Material_Paint_Varnish_MJ&hash=item27c6467676
And here's a post I found by searching the forum about decals
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=69155.0
Cheers dude. Yep, I'm in Northern Ireland. I seen this can of RustOleum right next to the can I picked up - but neither say Acrylic so I am reluctant to risk this still. I am considering just spending the fortune on the Krylon Acrylic spray to make sure I am doing it all correctly.
I seen that thread - but thanks for the heads up. I am sure I am doing everything else correctly in terms of applying the decal. I am convinced its this potent polyurethane spray I am using - it sure smells toxic anyway, its not reacting well to the fine decal membrane.
Thanks man.
I think you should water-slide and seal a soap-dish or candy-tin before you go back to that pedal. Little scraps so you are not sacrificing a whole costly sheet for every lesson.
I *suspect* the "bubbles" would have evaporated-out if you set it in a warm place a few days. At least that's what I get with wall-paper; I've learned to let it rest before going back to pick flaws.
Does sound like your sealer loves to eat your water-slide. Again a scrap and a spritz on a soap-dish would test the chemistry quicker/cheaper.
If it helps, here's the combination I use all the time: laser waterslide from Crafty (http://www.craftycomputerpaper.co.uk/category/Decal-Paper), paint and clear coat from Halfords.
Quote from: bluebunny on March 27, 2014, 11:13:35 AM
If it helps, here's the combination I use all the time: laser waterslide from Crafty (http://www.craftycomputerpaper.co.uk/category/Decal-Paper), paint and clear coat from Halfords.
Hey thanks guys,
Bluebunny - what kind of clear coat specifically do you buy in Halfords. I have a Halford's in town here, never even thought about going there.
I ordered Krylon Acrylic coat spray online as I seen many people on this board use it with great results - but then they emailed me to say the total was going to be over £30 for postage and I cancelled and refunded. Thats just ridiculous.
Is the clear coat you use from Halfords an acrylic? I really don't want to make the same mistake twice. It it non yellowing?
Thank you!
I use the Halfords brand clear-coat. It's on the same racks as the Halfords brand paints. I think it's acrylic. You can probably check online.
Edit: The clear coat (http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_210069_langId_-1_categoryId_165505) is "acrylic based" (as is the paint).
BTW, I've not noticed any of my pedals go yellow. Some are up to three years old and they enjoy whatever daylight (i.e. UV) comes through my office window.
Quote from: bluebunny on March 29, 2014, 11:32:36 AM
I use the Halfords brand clear-coat. It's on the same racks as the Halfords brand paints. I think it's acrylic. You can probably check online.
Edit: The clear coat (http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_210069_langId_-1_categoryId_165505) is "acrylic based" (as is the paint).
Quote from: bluebunny on March 29, 2014, 11:32:36 AM
I use the Halfords brand clear-coat. It's on the same racks as the Halfords brand paints. I think it's acrylic. You can probably check online.
Edit: The clear coat (http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_210069_langId_-1_categoryId_165505) is "acrylic based".
Thank very much man. I went on the website and seen that one. It got bad reviews, but I guess these people are referring to its use on car body parts. They have another one that seems basically the same called Halfords Universal Clear Lacquer that got better reviews. Maybe I'll try it. Hope I've better luck this time!
http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_206575_langId_-1_categoryId_165495 (http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_206575_langId_-1_categoryId_165495)
This Acrylic spray definitely seems a lot better.
I sealed the waterslide decal with a layer of it before applying. Then when it dried, I soaked the decal and applied it to the enclosure.
I pushed out the bubbles, followed all the usual guide instructions.
When I came back to check on how it was drying, there was a little bit of the same problem. Some wrinkling around the holes, and some blistering - but not as bad.
Like the polyurethane, when I then gave the whole enclosure with applied decal its first overall coat, the decal instantly wrinkled up and blistered some more.
I read on only one guide, that it may sometimes do this and that it should be left to dry as the decal will shrink back to itself and iron out all those blisters and wrinkles during the drying process.
At the minute, I feel a bit out of ideas, and quite frustrated. I've done everything any of the many guides I've said requires. I can only hope that when I check on it tomorrow it has miraculously ironed itself out while it dried out. I'm not very positive about that outcome though!
I'm reverting back to a glass of wine again for now... :icon_confused:
EDIT: Just checked on it. I GIVE UP! I've literally followed every guide on this site, youtube, others etc. This one appears to be screwed now aswell. The writing is all messed up from the wrinkling and I can't see it every straightening back out. It looks horrible.
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140329_214843_zps0d03e48e.jpg)
You're not alone. I think the people who make it work are supernatural! This is why I print my graphics onto photo paper and glue the photo to the box. From there I either spray on about 8 thin coats of clear varnish or use Envirotex pour on epoxy.
Quote from: Jdansti on March 29, 2014, 07:07:48 PM
You're not alone. I think the people who make it work are supernatural! This is why I print my graphics onto photo paper and glue the photo to the box. From there I either spray on about 8 thin coats of clear varnish or use Envirotex pour on epoxy.
I just cant understand it John. I have tried many new things in my life - but this is the first time I've followed something so carefully and it still repetitively fails. I mean, I've watched step by step video guides of the exact process I am doing with the exact materials, yet mine is doing something the video I can see with my own eyes is not doing. It just doesn't make sense. So, so irritating.
Quote from: steveyraff on March 29, 2014, 05:25:21 PM
I sealed the waterslide decal with a layer of it before applying.
You're spraying the decal *before* applying it? I do mine naked. (The decal, not me!) Only when the decal is applied and dry (I'm usually patient and wait a day) do I apply the clear-coat (multiple thin coats, btw).
Quote from: bluebunny on March 30, 2014, 10:13:59 AM
Quote from: steveyraff on March 29, 2014, 05:25:21 PM
I sealed the waterslide decal with a layer of it before applying.
You're spraying the decal *before* applying it? I do mine naked. (The decal, not me!) Only when the decal is applied and dry (I'm usually patient and wait a day) do I apply the clear-coat (multiple thin coats, btw).
You must be using a Laserjet printer? Inkjet decal paper is not sealed. If you print on it, then put the decal paper into water, the image will run off immediately. Funny thing is, when I spray the decal paper before putting it into water, there is no reaction like the pictures show. It dries perfectly smooth and looks great. Its only when the decal is applied to the surface of the enclosure and then starts to dry out that it begins to wrinkle up all over.
Could there be a reaction between the paper and the enclosure surface? I buy my aluminium enclosures pre-painted white. It's all I can think of.
Does anyone coat the enclosure surface with a layer of lacquer before applying decals on to it? Just a thought. I have no idea what to do anymore.
Quote from: steveyraff on March 30, 2014, 10:51:55 AM
You must be using a Laserjet printer? Inkjet decal paper is not sealed.
Damn fine answer, Steve! Yep, mine are laser. :icon_biggrin:
Does anyone use anything similar to waterslide decals with success? A friend suggested I try printing on to transparent plastic stickers that you can get. I guess it would be almost identical asides from the sticker being a fair bit thicker that the waterslide decal. I'd probably have to cover it with extra top coat to hide the risen edges.
I'm sure there are folks round here that have used stickers. I think you can even gently sand the edges so they're a little less "steppy". Rick (frequencycentral) did a tutorial a long time ago about using OHP slides, too. Have a play with the (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/Themes/diytheme/images/english/search.gif) button. :)
For anyone still following this ongoing saga (lol), it looks almost certainly to be defective knock-off decal paper that is causing the issue.
I'll buy some better quality stuff and let you all know how it turns out.
Steve.
Try Crafty on the previous page, Steve, with the caveat that I can only vouch for the laser version...
Quote from: steveyraff on April 02, 2014, 02:24:28 PM
For anyone still following this ongoing saga (lol), it looks almost certainly to be defective knock-off decal paper that is causing the issue.
I'll buy some better quality stuff and let you all know how it turns out.
Steve.
I've been reading since page 1, it'd be silly to stop now. 12 pages from your fist post is pretty good going.
I've always been tempted to go to Kinkos or such and have them print out my stuff on a transparency. I'm sure they can do white ink? Then just spray her down with clear coat.
New waterslide decal paper tried today from a brand with a good reputation.
Big improvement.
The transparent decal layer seems more durable. The acrylic spray works better.
But - I got excited. I sealed the waterslide, and then I applied it. For once it dried out on the enclosure with no wrinkles, no bubbles, no bumps - brilliant.
Then I gave the whole thing a light spray of acrylic clear coat to seal it. It dried out and looked brilliant.
So I thought to myself, ok, now that this is all dried and sealed and looking good I will go over it with a heavy spray so I can apply a good thick coat of it. I think this was my mistake. I came out an hour later to check on it and it had huge wrinkles all over it. Completely ruined.
I peeled the decal off before it set too well.
Take 2 tomorrow. I think I need to keep the layers light and keep the drying time in between much longer. I'm gutted!
Quote from: steveyraff on April 08, 2014, 06:26:39 PM
. . . a good thick coat . . .
Oooh, bad! :icon_eek: Go for lots of thin coats instead - you should leave ten to fifteen minutes between coats. You need to be patient (which I find difficult!), but it works. A thick coat will never dry. Never, ever. Not at all. Really. :icon_wink:
Quote from: bluebunny on April 09, 2014, 03:25:47 AM
Quote from: steveyraff on April 08, 2014, 06:26:39 PM
. . . a good thick coat . . .
Oooh, bad! :icon_eek: Go for lots of thin coats instead - you should leave ten to fifteen minutes between coats. You need to be patient (which I find difficult!), but it works. A thick coat will never dry. Never, ever. Not at all. Really. :icon_wink:
Hey,
bluebunny - out of curiosity - which Halfords Clear Lacquer do you go for? I use this one: http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_210069_langId_-1_categoryId_165505 (http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_210069_langId_-1_categoryId_165505)
But I noticed there is also this one: http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_206575_langId_-1_categoryId_165495 (http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_206575_langId_-1_categoryId_165495)
The first one. Can't say I've ever noticed the second one.
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140409_153002_zpseda07a81.jpg)
Well this is as bubble-free and wrinkle free as I've managed it yet. The crafty waterslide paper you suggested is MUCH better.
I had it sitting this good last night too - then I put too thick a layer of acrylic spray on it and it totally went to hell and completely wrinkled up.
I love how it looks like this now - but I am terrified to move on to the next step. Super light layers I guess... about 5 of them. When I mess them up they seem to peel off very easily so I am not sure how many layers it will take to make sure its sealed down there good as well as protected. To be on the safe side I better leave it for quite a while between each coat.
Here is another thing I'm terrified of doing - when exactly should I cut the holes out? I seen people do it with a very sharp blade. I tried this on the hole for the footswitch, but it started to lift the decal around the edges of it. I'm wondering can I just try using the appropriately sized drill to go through them when its all dried and ready?
Successfully finished about half a dozen light coats of acrylic spray. After drying, I cut the holes out with a brand new, very sharp scalpel.
AT LAST. It seems to be done now. Well - at least I know what to do next time. I'll box it up tomorrow.
Yeah! Congratulations!
Nice one, Steve. Looks good. If you *do* leave more than the 10-20 minutes between coats, you need to leave it long enough that it *dries completely* (like 24 hours). I tend to do my clearcoats when I'm doing something else, and just nip out every 15 minutes or so to do the next coat. I usually stop at four. Like I said, I'm too impatient to keep that lark up for too long... ;)
Edit: Yeah, scalpel is the way to go. If you're paranoid, you might want to seal the cut edges with a bit of acrylic on a Q-tip, and then be careful not to push the decal away from the enclosure when you shove the pots and jacks through.
Boxing it up at the moment. I am having an issue that I cant seem to find any info about online.
I can't get my Alpha Pots to secure into the holes I drilled as they wont sit flush against the inside of my case.
Can someone look at this picture, and explain to me what the little 'nub' is that sticks up to the upper left on the pot base, next to the nut?
http://www.banzaimusic.com/image.php?id=6748&type=D (http://www.banzaimusic.com/image.php?id=6748&type=D)
It presses against the underside of my enclosure making it impossible for the pots to sit straight when installed. I levelled it out with a washer and a nut on the inside. No idea if that is the correct procedure. Only problem was that it only left about one or two threads protruding from the enclosure for the outside nut to fasten on to.
ALL THANKS TO YOU GUYS! I pestered you all for weeks, months, but I got there in the end and I am very proud of this! I'll record a proper video demo in my recording studio and post the video here soon so you can all have a listen. Again, couldn't have done it without you all - I'm very grateful. It's a steep learning curve but highly rewarding. I'm sure I'll pester you with more questions in future!
The one thing that worries me a little - its shockingly cramped inside this. I had to press down some of the green caps because they stuck up too far. It didn't feel nice doing this. The PCB had to literally be pushed firmly down and squeezed right in there!
P.S If anyone can explain the aforementioned Alpha Pot query it'd be cool, I still can't seem to figure out what that 'nub' is for?
Steve.
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/BatDriveFinished_zps14a81020.jpg)
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/20140410_183804_zpsc2482812.jpg)
The most likely problem is you need to break off the little tab next to the threads. It's there in case you want to drill a small hole to keep the pot from turning. Most if us just pop it off with a pair of needle nose pliers.
+1. Do what John said.
And Rob (deadastronaut) will advocate using that broken-off tab to stick in the gap of any split-shaft pots you may use to stop any screwed-on knobs squeezing the shaft "shut". It's a perfect fit, apparently. Sausage-worthy advice. :)
+1: they also make great occasional tables for ants.. ;D
nice build btw, you got there in the end.. 8)...now for the next one.....and the next....and.....
Thanks everyone. Yea, really proud of this. I think its the first thing I've ever really made properly from scratch - can't wait for the next build! I actually already did build a Super Hard-On as a little side project that was supposed to be much easier. It sounded like ass though so I scrapped it :( lol
Anyways - I gig every weekend and I can't wait to take this out on Saturday night and give it a run through its paces. Woohoo!
Cheers for the tip with the Alpha Pots - will make sure to snip them off next time.
Here's a video demo for y'all that I recorded in my studio.
http://youtu.be/HRra4xyzuik (http://youtu.be/HRra4xyzuik)
Sounds great! You're getting a good range of sounds from it.
Quote from: Jdansti on April 11, 2014, 10:42:37 PM
Sounds great! You're getting a good range of sounds from it.
Thanks very much John! Very happy with it!
Sounds good Stevie. Glad it all worked out man
Hey guys,
Digging up this old thread again - but thought I'd keep any queries related to it all in the same place.
Got a lot of musician friends asking me to make them one after hearing my own live. I've made about 3 or 4 of them now. There was a few off board mods and various other layout changes which I decided to put into a new circuit layout design of my own.
So, for the last few weeks I've been learning how to use Eagle. I successfully designed my own layout that incorporated all my changes. Got the first PCB printed out 2 days ago and just finished building it today.
Few issues. Firstly, I was delighted it actually worked. I presumed if I got the layout wrong, it wouldn't work properly at all.
There are a few errors and a few questions I'd like to ask you all about them. Firstly, I think I made my pads and tracks slightly too thin. Its very hard not to over heat them while soldering and two or three actually lifted up off the board which caused a few problems. At the start I was getting intermittent signal, I discovered one of these loose pads was the culprit.
Not its all patched up and working - but I A/B'd it to my prototype and there is definitely not as much distortion/fuzz saturation. The other ones I built previously seem to have more gain.
I am pretty sure my layout is sound, I have checked and double and tripled check it for errors. Here's what I am thinking - is it possible that over heating a capacitor can have this effect? I only ask as I worried about this with one or two of the caps that had pads lifting off the board. It meant a lot of messing around with the soldering iron trying to get them secure and they were getting really hot at times. I am unsure if a damaged cap would negatively affect sound like this, or if it would lead to the circuit just not working at all if that had happened? ? ?
I checked my diodes and transistors and they all seem fine. The only thing I had problems with were some of the caps. I also had issues with loose potentiometer hook up wire joints. I made the pads too close together and they lift and joined together and got all messed up. I sort of rectified it so that they are now secure and separated, but I wouldn't know if this could have anything to do with my distortion issues?
Any words of advice appreciated. I will try to amend my layout so that it doesn't happen on future builds.
It's hard to tell what components might effect what if you don't supply a schematic.
Since you are having troubles overheating, you might want to practice soldering on empty perf before you start making pedals to give or sell to people. Wires, leads, extra components, etc. Are you etching these PCB's yourself or having them fab'd?
Quote from: mth5044 on September 24, 2014, 03:28:36 PM
It's hard to tell what components might effect what if you don't supply a schematic.
Since you are having troubles overheating, you might want to practice soldering on empty perf before you start making pedals to give or sell to people. Wires, leads, extra components, etc. Are you etching these PCB's yourself or having them fab'd?
Well this is about the 12th build now - most of my builds are 100 + components. I've had a lot of practice. My soldering is good now. The only reason I was having problems over heating it was because of the pads lifting and then I was having to spend a lot of time on one component trying to get the thing soldered properly. The pads are lifting very easily because I've made them too small, much smaller than i normally do. This means the drilling is taking most of them out. Its an update for my next PCB print out.
I'm getting them professionally fab'd. :)
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/ScreenShot2014-09-24at210817_zps3bf87b07.png)
Sorry guys, don't mean to spam but I just want to bump this up again to see if anyone has any ideas as to why the latest build doesnt seem to have as much distortion as the previous builds? I A/B'd it to my prototype and it definitely seems a little weaker.
I presume its not the diodes or transistors as I checked their solder joints and everything is clean. I also presume its not going to be any of the caps that have a ground leg as they wouldn't allow any signal past at all. So could it be one of the other caps ? ?
Confused - not great with troubleshooting. Cheers.
stevey, nice to see you back. how the hell did we get this thread to 13 pages?
can we see your board layout please? there is literally nothing in eagle you can't set/reset to what you want/need. I only use it for circuit diagramming, but I have done some pcb's many years ago. you might be better to set the pad sizes (and track widths) as wide as can fit. the hole size can also be changed.
and not meaning to be rude, but there are some problems evident with your schematic-ing. I can't see the component values (not big enough) to comment on the workings, but I can see some parts are twisted about themselves, there are junctions where they shouldn't be, and something weird about your resistors. why do they have those brown lines either end?
the best way to repair lifted pads is to chuck the bad bit; push the component flat on the board so it can't shift about, wrap a bit of fine wire, like a resistor cut-off, around the poked through leg as a replacement for the pad, and trail it to the nearest still solid bit of track. solder carefully, just enough, no more.
Quote from: duck_arse on September 25, 2014, 10:35:54 AM
stevey, nice to see you back. how the hell did we get this thread to 13 pages?
can we see your board layout please? there is literally nothing in eagle you can't set/reset to what you want/need. I only use it for circuit diagramming, but I have done some pcb's many years ago. you might be better to set the pad sizes (and track widths) as wide as can fit. the hole size can also be changed.
and not meaning to be rude, but there are some problems evident with your schematic-ing. I can't see the component values (not big enough) to comment on the workings, but I can see some parts are twisted about themselves, there are junctions where they shouldn't be, and something weird about your resistors. why do they have those brown lines either end?
the best way to repair lifted pads is to chuck the bad bit; push the component flat on the board so it can't shift about, wrap a bit of fine wire, like a resistor cut-off, around the poked through leg as a replacement for the pad, and trail it to the nearest still solid bit of track. solder carefully, just enough, no more.
Hey thanks :) Its just the component package I was using I think. In the layout, there is nothing apparent that seems odd about the resistors (to me anyway! lol).
I mean, it should be the exact same as any other build I've done exact the layout is moved around a bit to make it easier. I started out with a layout that was an exact copy of the one I've been using up until now, and just changed a few parts around to make life easier. Nothing has actually changed, which makes me wonder if my loss of distortion is to do with the messing around I had with a few of the caps, or the fact that I repaired a broken track at the "Night" control with a piece of wire to bridge it?
CAPS:
C1
100n
C2
1n
C3
4u7
C4
22uF
C5
47n
C6
10n
C7
4u7
C8
47n
C9
470pf
C10
47n
C11
1n
C12
470pf
C13
100n
C14
470pf
C15
100n
C16
4u7
C17
10n
C18
100n
C19
22uF
C20
22uF
C21
220uF
C22
220uF
C23
100uF
C24
4u7
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/BATUPDATE_zps869957ff.png)
What about all the things that aren't connected? Especially R28 on Q5. It is connected to an small pour of what I assume to be ground, but it is an island: isolated. Which that airwave to C23 is telling you. Same thing with the cap under the volume pads. And what about the other airwaves?
^ that's what I was going to say. looks like V3 is in the offing.
lol oh yea... erm, those. hah. Sorry guys, I know I must continually irritate wasting peoples time on this thread with my rookie errors, but I only learn when these things are pointed out to me - so I really appreciate your patience. It helps me understand. Yea, I seen these islands at the time and it crossed my mind that it couldn't possibly be enough to earth it - guess I should have went with that theory! Would something like that cause the problems I refer to with underwhelming tone/distortion ? ?
Also, what do you mean when you say 'airwaves'? Again, sorry for all the rookie questions. Do you mean the yellow lines that tell me something needs to be connected? I think some of them occurred when I disregarded resistor orientation - but they are still correct regardless (I think! :/ )
So, if the ground islands are the problem, is there a way for me to just quickly test to make sure? ie join the island up to the ground plane with a jumper wire? Or is this a ridiculous suggestion?
the yellow lines indicate that something connected on the schem still needs to be routed and therefore connected on the pcb. a redesign is needed on your pcb. you might be able to get normal operation if you add wire links betweeen the yellow-lined parts.
[edit: ]actually, don't just wire between yellows. around Q5 I can see they are crossing over. it might be easier to open the board in eagle and move the parts around until the connections are a bit clearer.
Quote from: duck_arse on September 25, 2014, 11:36:41 AM
the yellow lines indicate that something connected on the schem still needs to be routed and therefore connected on the pcb. a redesign is needed on your pcb. you might be able to get normal operation if you add wire links betweeen the yellow-lined parts.
Hmm ok. I knew that, but I thought it might have just been something I did wrong in the schematic as the layout visually appeared the same in those areas as the previous working layout. Thanks guys. I'll keep trying.
Maybe this is why I don't have appropriate amount of distortion?
'Earth it' doesn't really mean anything. All grounded items must connect together and, in this case, connect to the negative terminal of the power supply. R27, R28 and C10(?) are not grounded and will give you problems, especially since R27 is used to bias Q5.
Airwaves are the yellow lines. IF your schematic is correct (IF IF IF), then you can consider the airwaves on the layout correct. YOU MUST CONNECT THE AIRWAVES. Resistor orientation isn't a thing, so forget about that. If you still have airwaves on the layout after you've finished (unless it's something intentional, which it usually isn't) you haven't done the layout correctly. It appears you haven't done it correctly and it needs quite a bit of work.
Some things appear to be wrong in your schematic as well. What library are you using for those resistors? For some resistors (schem is too small to make out some of the labels, could you post a bigger one?), it looks like you tried to flip the component around without disconnecting it, such as the R in the top left schematic going to VB. You can see the green line through it, which means the trace is connecting to both sides and causing problems. Usually when you see a green dot on a single connection, something isn't right. Even less right when there is a green trace going through the component connecting the leads.
You can try to connect all the islands together. From what I see there are two of them. But that might not help you with all the other airwaves. I'd suggest starting from scratch. Look at Gauss Markov's Eagle tutorial and then start again. Those resistor packages also look strange with their pins, so maybe get Gauss's or Madbean's library.
and R40 wants to have each of its ends connected together, so you have some problems with your schematic as well. looks like starting from scratch.
One of each clipping diode is being bypassed in the schematic as well since the green lines are going through them. Too hard to tell in the layout, but it could cause clipping problems. The other components bypassed are the LED and the resistor in the power section.
Ill try to get a bigger schematic. Here is a pic of the layout which DOES work. This is what I've been comparing to. Its why I thought some of the airwaves could be disregarded. ie - you said R40 wants both of its ends connected, because the airwaves say so (probably an error on my schem?) - but if you look at this working layout, they are not connected?
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt52/steveyraff/ScreenShot2014-09-02at133424_zpsc18a476b.png)
I'd imagine a lot of the problem is coming from when you turned the resistors in the schematic and didn't disconnect them, so the sides are still connected. It's hard for us to compare all the airwaves (but you can, if you have the time), but it looks like R3,5,26,29,40,41,43 all want their ends to be connected. As I said, the airwaves aren't wrong unless the schematic is wrong. So you're schematic is wrong, but since you changed things up on the layout, it may be correct EXCEPT the ground connections, which are definitely wrong. Perhaps that's the only problem? It's hard to saw which so much going on with the airwaves and the hard to read values and names.
Try connecting the R28-C23 and C10(?)-R37(?) airwaves with a jumper to see if it works. If not, I recommend starting over. What was wrong with the original layout? It looks very good.
Quote from: mth5044 on September 25, 2014, 12:06:06 PM
I'd imagine a lot of the problem is coming from when you turned the resistors in the schematic and didn't disconnect them, so the sides are still connected. It's hard for us to compare all the airwaves (but you can, if you have the time), but it looks like R3,5,26,29,40,41,43 all want their ends to be connected. As I said, the airwaves aren't wrong unless the schematic is wrong. So you're schematic is wrong, but since you changed things up on the layout, it may be correct EXCEPT the ground connections, which are definitely wrong. Perhaps that's the only problem? It's hard to saw which so much going on with the airwaves and the hard to read values and names.
Try connecting the R28-C23 and C10(?)-R37(?) airwaves with a jumper to see if it works. If not, I recommend starting over. What was wrong with the original layout? It looks very good.
Nothing wrong with it at all! It's great and I am still using it. But I wanted to learn how to use EAGLE and I just started with this design I already was familiar with - and now I would like to make an exact copy but then add some more modifications. I need to make a straight copy first (which I already sort of did), then change the layout around and add my mods then. Just doing it step at a time. Baby steps. I'm falling over a lot already though lol.
Thanks for the help so far guys - appreciate it!
Yep - that's fixed it! See this is why I do these things - now I've learnt quite a few things from these noob mistakes.
Thanks everyone for your patience and great help as always!