hi everyone
I know it's an old question in many forum, but I still can't understand if it is normal or not..so since this forum is the most tech-related I'm sure I can get a proper reply.
when I don't touch anything metal on my Les Paul (2 standard humbuckers) I hear an annoying 60Hz hum (50Hz actually since I'm in EU).
I recorded it here:
https://soundcloud.com/dimitree-1/noise-lp
as you can hear, the guitar is silent when I touch strings or metal parts. Furthermore using the volume knobs, it makes some sort of filtering of the noise.
details:
- the wiring on my guitar is made by me following the Seymour Duncan wiring diagrams.
- I'm not using an amp here! so it's not an amp problem, I'm recording directly to my USB audio sound-card. This card is a Focusrite Scarlett 18i6, powered by its original 12V DC power supply. This psu only have 2 conductors that goes to the main outlet, not 3 (so no ground).
- btw, the same problem happens when I'm playing with other amps (and in other places, not only in my house).
many people says it's totally normal, many people says that it is not since they guitars don't do that.
What's the truth?
Sounds like the bridge isn't grounded.
First, good work for eliminating a lot of things it could be - house wiring, amps you're connecting to, etc.
I think "induction" could be right - an ungrounded bridge could do this, as could a broken wire inside the control cavity.
Does the hum level change with the setting of the guitar controls at all?
the bridge is grounded (and so the strings, the tuners, the jack plate, and so on), indeed if I touch it, the hum disappears. There's continuity between every point that should be tied to ground, so no broken paths.
yes, the hum level changes when I move the volume pot, as you can hear in the clip, it totally disappear with volume at 0, when volume is at 85% the hum is at his max, and when volume is at 100% it sounds a bit high-pass filtered. (you can listen those things in the clip)
Have you tried another axe to see if it still occurs?
Lots of times you can have a 'floating' power supply - a difference in potential between say computer PS and your 'add on's' power supply...happened to me with powered PC speakers and it drove me crazy!!!....I am not 100% sure you are actually at ground potential with the LP! If the bridge etc. is in fact grounded, I am very inclined to think the problem lies in having a couple of different ground references. In essence, there is 'no clear point of zero volts as reference', if what I think is correct.
Plug everything into 1 power strip, check the wall outlet with a tester to be sure it's wired right, try another guitar, make sure you're not using any pedals at the time and then introduce some, try YOUR guitar with a good amp, etc....if the problem remains, well OK, we'll blame the axe, but I wouldn't just yet ;)
PS - anything nearby that could cause hum induction, like a transformer, or the PC screen or something? I have to turn my monitor off when I record!! :o
AC hum that goes away when you touch grounded metal doesn't necessarily indicate that there is something wrong with the guitar or amp/whatever, other than perhaps insufficient shielding. Most concise and clear explanation I've come across:
https://www.audereaudio.com/FAQ_PUNoise.htm
Yep, the fact that the noise goes away when you touch the strings indicates that the bridge is in fact grounded and everything is working normally. The noise comes from you, or (perhaps more accurately) you are acting as a "rebroadcasting station" for the EM/RFI radiation in your environment. Perfectly normal.
A typical Les Paul has a rather long run of wire from the pickups up to the switch and back down to the control cavity. These wires as well as the controls in the cavity itself are prone to pick up some noise if not shielded properly. You might try just lining the cavity and its cover with aluminum or copper foil. Make sure that the foil on the cover contacts that in the cavity when screwed in place, and that the cavity foil contacts something else that is grounded like a pot shaft/nut, or the metal plate that they are sometimes attached to, or even a wire screwed into the side of the cavity that is connected to ground somehow. That will likely help some, but if it's not enough then you'll want to replace those wires running to the switch and back with something shielded.
I don't think (but of couse I may be totally wrong) that it is a EM/RFI problem.
I have the same problems when I use my stratocaster..
Furthermore, when my chain is
guitar -> battery powered headphone amp
touching or not touching the metal parts makes no differences, because cycling hum is not there at all.. So I'd say guitars are ok. right?
And last, when I plug my condenser microphone to my usb audio card, there's no noise, but if I touch the mic metal chassis, 60hz noise comes in! then, while touching the mic chassis, if I touch the mic jack (metal) noise stops again!
Quote from: Dimitree on July 30, 2014, 04:47:41 PM
I don't think (but of couse I may be totally wrong) that it is a EM/RFI problem.
I have the same problems when I use my stratocaster..
Furthermore, when my chain is
guitar -> battery powered headphone amp
touching or not touching the metal parts makes no differences, because cycling hum is not there at all.. So I'd say guitars are ok. right?
It
is ElectroMagnetic noise, being spewed into the air either by the wires in your walls or by some transformer(s) connected to those wires. It is, as I said, sort of collected and rebroadcast by the nice sack of electrolytes that you call a body, which is very (!) close to the wiring in the guitar, which picks it up and sends it to whatever you're plugging into for amplification/recording. When you short yourself to ground by touching the strings, you also short the noise. It's how it's supposed to work. Your strat also needs to be shielded. There are plenty of other variables to account for the thing with the headphone amp.
QuoteAnd last, when I plug my condenser microphone to my usb audio card, there's no noise, but if I touch the mic metal chassis, 60hz noise comes in! then, while touching the mic chassis, if I touch the mic jack (metal) noise stops again!
That almost indicates that somehow the chassis of your microphone is not actually conducting to the shield of the cable. By touching the metal case you are focusing the noise that you're rebroadcasting even closer to the electronics inside so it can more effectively interfere with your signal. This is very similar to touching the pole pieces on many guitar pickups. By connecting to the actual grounded part of the cable, you are again shorting your noise, just like touching the strings/bridge on your guitar does.
Shield the guitars, live with the hum, or turn off the main breaker to your building. ;)
Quote from: Dimitree on July 30, 2014, 04:47:41 PM
I don't think (but of couse I may be totally wrong) that it is a EM/RFI problem.
AC hum can be "rebroadcast" by your body as well. The telltale sign of insufficient shielding is that the noise - whichever type - goes away when
you touch grounded metal. That indicates that the source of the noise is
you, or more specifically the voltage imposed on your body by the local AC line power system via capacitive coupling, which is in turn imposed on the pickups via capacitive coupling.
thank you guys,
but how do I explain the fact that if I put the guitar on the sofa, I start recording and I go to another room (the guitar still on the sofa), the noise is still there (constant and at the same level) even without me?
QuoteShield the guitars, live with the hum,
I can't see why I should live with this cyclic hum..
A friend of mine has a home studio, he got a cheap squier telecaster with no shielding at all, and he got no 60hz hum when he doesn't touch the string.
He actually got noise when he is near a monitor or near a cellphone, but in this case it's ok, I accept that it is normal and related to shielding and I can live with this. I can even live with white noise/hiss produced by pickups, it's ok.
But my guitars let me hear 60hz hum in every condition, and I think it is not acceptable.
Unfortunately I can't go with my guitars to my friend house and try there.
So, if my situation is normal, my friend's one is not, or the opposite.
You gotta go with the shielding option if you want to eliminate it. Tons of different things affect electromagnetic hum, which is quite easily picked up by sensitive guitar equipment and sensitive amplification circuits. The wiring in my family's house is super quiet and nice - I do my recording there because there's no hum. At my apartment, the entire building is very poorly grounded and there are so many other people using electronic stuff around me that my amps hum noticeably all the time - and while it's fine for playing, I would never think of trying to record in a situation like that.
The fact that your headphone amp is battery-powered and doesn't produce hum makes me think it's definitely a problem with something in the AC circuitry surrounding you - in the walls, your appliances, your neighbors' place, etc.
Maybe your friend's studio has well-done wall wiring and your building doesn't. Maybe your friend doesn't have things like a refrigerator, microwave, AC unit, Internet routers, etc nearby that can contribute to electromagnetic hum. Maybe your friend's studio has a lot of steel girding in the ceiling that blocks (effectively "shielding") outside radio, TV, and cell phone transmissions. Maybe your headphone amp is small enough or well-shielded enough that it doesn't pick up any hum from things around you. It all really depends, but if you want to eliminate as many possible sources of hum as possible, shield all the stuff in your guitar. If it persists even after that, THEN you really have a reason to complain.
Great suggestions, everyone. Shielding is called for, yup. Really does sound like "the body antenna" effect. And if that doesn't work, I guess an active 60 Hz hum filter!
Quote from: GibsonGM on July 30, 2014, 06:52:18 PM
Really does sound like "the body antenna" effect
Funny, the same thing happens when I leave the guitar on tue sofa, 10 meters far from me..
Quote from: Dimitree on July 30, 2014, 07:08:07 PM
Quote from: GibsonGM on July 30, 2014, 06:52:18 PM
Really does sound like "the body antenna" effect
Funny, the same thing happens when I leave the guitar on tue sofa, 10 meters far from me..
Human bodies are not the only objects capable of capacitive coupling with mains wiring and guitar pickups. Anything that can conduct - like our bodies - will technically do this. Does the sofa have springs? If the sofa touches the strings does the hum go away?
What kind of pick does the sofa play with? If you have a long enough cable, take the guitar outside and well away from the building.
Well, the thing is, we're offering you a solution that has helped many other folks with similar symptoms, that's relatively easy and can be quite cheap, and (done correctly) can't possibly hurt. On top of that, I really can't imagine any other problem that would actually fit the scenario that you've described. If the hum did not go away when you touched the strings, or actually got worse, we might look elsewhere, but for now I'm going to continue to say "shield it or live with it."
Edit to add - even if it's not all body noise, shielding can only help.
The hum has the same level wherever I put the guitar, wherever room, with or without me.
If it was a ground loop or an earth connection problem, would it give me the same signs? Or can we exclude that since qhen I touch the strings it is mute?
Don't overlook bad wiring practices in the guitar. This Cort has two volume controls and a tone control:
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd222/amptramp1/DSCF0066.jpg)
It had serious hum and noise issues. Adding the yellow grounding wire solved the problem. Originally, ground connections from the pots were made from the ground lug to the metal rear shell and the pots were connected via the front shell being compressed against an aluminum tape shield. No good contacts anywhere, including the bridge ground. I left the connections from the volume controls to the rear metal shells since the shells do not necessarily make good contact with the front face of the pots.
Now it plays well with no sign of hum or noise:
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd222/amptramp1/DSCF0067.jpg)
There's no ground loop inside your guitar. There may be some redundant ground paths, and I've heard tales of folks breaking those and getting better noise performance, but they almost always do a bunch of other stuff (like shield the thing) at the same time.
Far more often I've seen people who couldn't fix their hum without adding a redundant ground path - usually the wires between the pots which they removed when they shielded and star grounded it. It is completely possible that you've got some dodgy ground path. Either the bottom of the pickup or the cases of the pots might have more than insignificant resistance to the jack sleeve. Generally, though, touching the strings won't cure this. You'll have a reduction in hum any time you touch a ground point, but there will still be a residual buzz.
If there's a ground loop in the rest of your setup, then it will buzz even without the guitar.
It's worth a shot to double check all of your wiring, maybe reflow some of the ground connections. While you've got it apart, you might as well shield it. ;)
Why not eliminate all variables. Shield the full interior... take the time and expense that most manufacturers do not do... (not that it's expensive... it's the cheapest improvement you can do). If you still have really bad 60hz hum, then you can go after the wiring and the ground paths.
60hz house wiring should be obvious when moving around your amp, rotating in spot, or moving your amp around the house causes the noise to get better or worse. Shield the cavity, and check your wiring. Also, plug the guitar direct into amp, and maybe try other amps too.
I'm a basement player in a small room... house wires all around me. My strat can be awful, even with shielding. Maybe try in your back yard?
Had same problem in my Epi Les Paul... Copper tape inside Control Cavity and don't forget the cover. You can use shielded wires (like mogami) for wiring your switch too.
OR you can use Active Pickups. I had one guitar with Seymours and other with EMG's. The first had that noise, but the LTD with EMG's was humm-free. Tried this at guitar store and the result was the same. Gibson USA made had this humm, but cheap LTD with EMG's was silent.
If you decide to shield the cavity with copper tape make sure the tape you buy has conductive glue.
This way the tape becomes part of the shield by the simple process of overlapping the edges a bit.
Other copper tapes may require soldering at their joints.
Use DMM to check the continuity.
Yes, you have to prove continuity with a meter.
That hum goes away when you touch the guitars metalwork does not prove that the guitar is properly grounded. If it was grounded, then touching it would make no difference.
However, the guitar, even with good wiring, is only grounded via whatever it's plugged into. Somewhere along the line it depends on the AC supply Earth bonding being good. Screw terminations in wall sockets can work loose. The modern practice of of building AC sockets with bits of copper and brass spot-welded together is prone to failure. Some buildings use the copper water pipes for the AC earth which may not be effective - it should be a copper spike in the ground.
That it's the same with the computer points to an AC wiring issue (you can get test plugs for your AC sockets), however it depends on the computer. They don't all have an AC grounded chassis - but a conventional desktop machine should do.
It can help (good practice in general), if you use one wall socket for your audio gear with a multiway power strip. That helps reduce hum as they all have equal access to the same ground.
Quote from: anotherjim on July 31, 2014, 06:34:30 AM
Yes, you have to prove continuity with a meter.
there's more or less 30ohm between bridge and jack ground.
Quote
However, the guitar, even with good wiring, is only grounded via whatever it's plugged into. Somewhere along the line it depends on the AC supply Earth bonding being good.
I live in Italy, and I know for sure that the majority of houses built before '70s doesn't have a proper earth connection (it is indeed illegal now). My house could be one of those. I will ask a technical to come and check the earth connection.
Do you have an outlet tester? VERY useful for safety, and for problems like this. Plugging one item into one outlet, and another item into a different outlet that is wired wrong, can have VERY bad results! That is why I thought of a problem with your power supply.
(http://entertainmentmind.com/wp-admin/network/electrical-outlet-tester-791.jpg)
30 ohms is "a lot" for a ground, altho not in the 'super high value' range....makes me wonder why it's that high, tho. Should just be a piece of wire a few inches long, and read almost zero ohms. A place to look at, could be something wrong with the connection (dirty or something). 22 ga. wire has a resistance of .016 ohms per foot....personally I'd explore that "issue" and correct it.
Could something be wired out of phase, and you're reading thru a pickup???? Hard sayin', not knowin' ;)
Quote from: anotherjim on July 31, 2014, 06:34:30 AM
That hum goes away when you touch the guitars metalwork does not prove that the guitar is properly grounded. If it was grounded, then touching it would make no difference.
This statement is absolutely false (sorry Jim).
Case in point: Take a perfectly fine well shielded coaxial guitar cable, plug it in to an amp that for the sake of this argument is properly grounded, leave the other end unconnected and turn the amp on. Now touch the unconnected tip with your finger. Does it hum? You bet it does. Now, remove your finger from the tip and touch it to the sleeve. Does it hum? No (well it might a little depending on the cable etc. but it won't be anywhere near as loud). Now, remove your finger from the sleeve and bring it close to but not touching the tip. Move it away a bit then closer again, back and forth, slowly. Do you hear the hum level going up and down? That is due to capacitive coupling. No ground problems at all. The mains wiring induces a voltage in your body which is fed into the amp through the cable via the capacitive coupling of your body to the connector tip.
It may not be your body that is the (only) source of hum, but it most surely is shielding that will reduce it as much as possible.
ok, let's say that the 60Hz hum that I hear is a 60Hz E.M. signal,
if I hear it so loud, should I care about my healt? how is possible that such strong 60Hz signal is in the air in every part of the house..
You could also do what I do when playing live.
I attach an alligator clip to the bridge and have the other end tucked in my pants against the skin.
Every once in a while you hear on the news (at least we used to here in amerika) about farmers complaining about how high tension power lines near their fields are endangering the health of their cattle, so yes, I think you should buy a tinfoil suit so you don't end up broiled from the inside. Don't forget the hat! ;)
But actually it's not anywhere near enough to really hurt you. It sounds loud because you're amplifying it a lot.
And yes, a radio which is properly grounded will still work.
Quote from: Dimitree on July 31, 2014, 09:52:31 AM
how is possible that such strong 60Hz signal is in the air in every part of the house..
Physics.
Les Pauls hum when you don't touch the strings or any metal parts on the instrument. .. unless you play with gloves on or only strum open strings, it shouldn't be a problem..i don't see how you can make music without touching the strings. ..
Quote from: GGBB on July 31, 2014, 08:09:09 AM
Quote from: anotherjim on July 31, 2014, 06:34:30 AM
That hum goes away when you touch the guitars metalwork does not prove that the guitar is properly grounded. If it was grounded, then touching it would make no difference.
This statement is absolutely false (sorry Jim).
Case in point: Take a perfectly fine well shielded coaxial guitar cable, plug it in to an amp that for the sake of this argument is properly grounded, leave the other end unconnected and turn the amp on. Now touch the unconnected tip with your finger. Does it hum? You bet it does. Now, remove your finger from the tip and touch it to the sleeve. Does it hum? No (well it might a little depending on the cable etc. but it won't be anywhere near as loud). Now, remove your finger from the sleeve and bring it close to but not touching the tip. Move it away a bit then closer again, back and forth, slowly. Do you hear the hum level going up and down? That is due to capacitive coupling. No ground problems at all. The mains wiring induces a voltage in your body which is fed into the amp through the cable via the capacitive coupling of your body to the connector tip.
It may not be your body that is the (only) source of hum, but it most surely is shielding that will reduce it as much as possible.
I think you've misunderstood my point.
I'm sure the original matter was that the noise stops when the bridge is touched?
If the noise stops when you touch it - your body simply has to be making a better ground than the amp is providing! The noise is from some form of electrical interference. If touching it stops it then you are shorting it out.
Or to put it another way, I'm not saying the bridge isn't connected to the guitar jack ( but I'd still want to test that)- I mean it isn't properly grounded by the amp. Therefore the bridge is still not effectively grounded.
A very long cable, high gain amp and high impedance pickups can cause the same effect even when the amp ground is good.
A bridge not grounded to the jack with a good amp ground can be the opposite effect - it's noisy when you do touch it. You can't be the better ground in that case.
Quote from: anotherjim on July 31, 2014, 01:52:28 PM
Quote from: GGBB on July 31, 2014, 08:09:09 AM
Quote from: anotherjim on July 31, 2014, 06:34:30 AM
That hum goes away when you touch the guitars metalwork does not prove that the guitar is properly grounded. If it was grounded, then touching it would make no difference.
This statement is absolutely false (sorry Jim).
Case in point: Take a perfectly fine well shielded coaxial guitar cable, plug it in to an amp that for the sake of this argument is properly grounded, leave the other end unconnected and turn the amp on. Now touch the unconnected tip with your finger. Does it hum? You bet it does. Now, remove your finger from the tip and touch it to the sleeve. Does it hum? No (well it might a little depending on the cable etc. but it won't be anywhere near as loud). Now, remove your finger from the sleeve and bring it close to but not touching the tip. Move it away a bit then closer again, back and forth, slowly. Do you hear the hum level going up and down? That is due to capacitive coupling. No ground problems at all. The mains wiring induces a voltage in your body which is fed into the amp through the cable via the capacitive coupling of your body to the connector tip.
It may not be your body that is the (only) source of hum, but it most surely is shielding that will reduce it as much as possible.
I think you've misunderstood my point.
I'm sure original question was that the noise stops when the bridge is touched?
If the noise stops when you touch it - your body simply has to be making a better ground than the amp is providing!
If the buzz goes away when you touch the strings then there is obviously an electrical connection to ground otherwise touching the strings would do nothing.
When you touch the strings and the buzz goes away it's because your body is becoming an RF choke, just like one of these
(http://www.dubuque-forsale.com/This-Month-Ads/Amish-Stuff/5-ferrite-snap-on-choke-noise-suppressor-core-filter-picture.jpg)
It's a trick we use in the lab on bias wire to see if noise spikes are RFI induced in the bias wires leading to a cryogenic dewar, wrap them around your hand and if it goes away then it's interference, if it doesn't... there are other problems.
Might have missed it, but *is your computer plugged into a properly grounded outlet?* The tester mentioned is always a good idea. If the (I'm assuming desktop) computer *is* plugged ito a grounded outlet, does plugging an amp into that socket yield hum?
I'm selling quite a few of these focusrite interfaces, without problems.
30 ohm is a lot for the bridge ground.
In a LP - isn't the wire pushed inside the bridge pillar hole and trapped by the ferrule?
Quote from: anotherjim on July 31, 2014, 01:52:28 PM
I think you've misunderstood my point.
I'm sure the original matter was that the noise stops when the bridge is touched?
If the noise stops when you touch it - your body simply has to be making a better ground than the amp is providing! The noise is from some form of electrical interference. If touching it stops it then you are shorting it out.
Or to put it another way, I'm not saying the bridge isn't connected to the guitar jack ( but I'd still want to test that)- I mean it isn't properly grounded by the amp. Therefore the bridge is still not effectively grounded.
A very long cable, high gain amp and high impedance pickups can cause the same effect even when the amp ground is good.
A bridge not grounded to the jack with a good amp ground can be the opposite effect - it's noisy when you do touch it. You can't be the better ground in that case.
I understood your point to be that if the guitar was properly grounded, touching it would NOT make the hum go away. If that was not your point, then yes, I misunderstood your statement and please accept my apology. But that statement, as I understood it, whether your intention or not, is false.
You're right - the body can shunt "electrical interference" to ground - but of course the body needs to actually be grounded to do that. There was no indication of that by the OP, and typically most guitar players other than pappasmurfsharem (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=108177.msg985318#msg985318) are not grounded, so I think we can safely assume that isn't what's happening here. Except when the strings are touched, because then the body is grounded via the strings, and noise is shunted to ground. This is the more likely scenario - the body itself is at least one source of hum via capacitive coupling, and touching the strings shunts this noise to ground because the guitar is grounded. This is very common - the telltale sign is the reduction of noise when the player touches the strings.
Another factor that I think applies in this case (experts please correct me if I am wrong) is the potential for the body to act as a shield against interference. Since the body is conductive, placing it between a source of the interference and the pickups and grounding the body (for example to the strings of a properly grounded guitar) does provide a shielding effect, although not likely a good one.
I am by no means any expert in electronics, but at least in my case all the guitars I've played are like that. I have 7 electrics and all of them hum when plugged in without touching them. The minute you put your hands on the strings or the bridge, it goes away. It's just the nature of the beast I think.
Shielding sounds good in theory, but (specially on strats) it will kill your high end -been there-, I would rather go for noiseless pickups like the Kinmans or EMG's in case you like actives.
I've also found that sometimes EMG equipped guitars have the bridge not connected to ground (in theory it's not needed because the pickups are "so quiet" :) )
Quote from: anotherjim on July 31, 2014, 02:24:08 PM
30 ohm is a lot for the bridge ground.
In a LP - isn't the wire pushed inside the bridge pillar hole and trapped by the ferrule?
+1, what I said above. Look right below the big yellow outlet tester :)
I would redo the ground if I measured that on MY instrument....until there is just about ZERO ohms from bridge to the ground on the jack, we really can't say too much more. And I mean near ZERO...like, .1 ohm because your meter isn't precise enough to read ZERO.
There is only a 5" piece of wire from bridge to ground at the jack! 30R is too high.
Quote from: Xavier on August 01, 2014, 04:00:14 AMShielding sounds good in theory, but (specially on strats) it will kill your high end -been there-,...
This is only true if you try to shield the pickups themselves. If you wrap a grounded loop of foil around the pickup coil, there's capacitive coupling from the wires of the coil to the shield. What do we call a capacitor from signal to ground? Right, a low pass filter. It should be about the same thing as putting a metal cover on.
When you shield just the cavities (and pickguard in a strat) you don't usually end up with enough foil close enough to the coils to get much capacitance. In an LP there won't be foil anywhere near the pickups. I have shielded most of my guitars, and most of them can be ice picks if I want. Yes, this leaves the big coil of wire which is going to pick up most of the noise outside of the shield, but the side pointed toward the biggest, closest source of noise (you) is usually shielded, and as mentioned above, some pickups have metal covers and are shielded already. For the rest, we have humbucking combinations of coils or we accept the fact that single coil guitars him a bit, and that we've done the best we can to minimize the noise.
No real world passive guitar is ever going to be completely silent until you turn the V pot all the way down (or flip the kill switch!), and I think it's important to have some perspective. I drove myself (more) crazy one summer by cranking up my headphones and tracking down the source of every tiny little buzz and hiss in my studio. It was horrible! Ultimately helped quite a bit, but if I had actually played music through the system at that volume it would have destroyed the cans and my ears. The best we can hope for is a reasonable S/N ratio. We'll never achieve in a guitar anywhere near the specs we expect in "pro audio" equipment, let alone what's available even in digital. A little bit of buzz that only happens when you're not touching the guitar, and can't really be heard (if if you're not touching) when the strings are ringing is not a problem, it's a disorder. ;)
Shielded my Epi Les Paul and playing with my version of Maxon OD820, through the JCM 800, and I never felt that I need to use a Noise Gate at all. Gain on OD is past the 12 o'clock and gain on the JCM past 3 o'clock. SH-4 in the Bridge... Very Happy with the result :)