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The Moonrock has always been a mystery. Very rare little to no information. The sound clips and the claims of a totally original circuit make it very intriguing. Sadly, from what I understand, G.S. Wyllie has passed away. And, maybe the secret of the Moonrock.

On another forum I have been talking a owner of a Moonrock, who graciously offered to take some pictures. In an effort to finally crack the secret of the Moonrock, and maybe offer a small tribute to Mr. Wyllie, I'm trying the recreate the Moonrock.

Here's what I have so far
(http://www.super-freq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/IMG_0204_zps81bff36c.jpg)
(http://www.super-freq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/IMG_0205_zpsf2d63afe.jpg)
(http://www.super-freq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/IMG_0206_zps36422328.jpg)
(http://www.super-freq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/IMG_0207_zpse785af95.jpg)
(http://www.super-freq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/IMG_0208_zpsd853b821.jpg)
(http://www.super-freq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/IMG_0209_zpse80525d8.jpg)
(http://www.super-freq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/IMG_0210_zps5ee3abc7.jpg)
(http://www.super-freq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/IMG_0211_zpsc66d8538.jpg)
(http://www.super-freq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Moonrock-2.jpg)
(http://www.super-freq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Moonrock-3.jpg)
(http://www.super-freq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Moonrock-6.jpg)

That has got to be the sturdiest "kinderegg" I've ever seen ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder_Surprise  We get them in Canada, but they are banned in the USA).

It would be cool of you to share the circuit if you can crack (the egg).  Some kind of Octave-Fuzz thing?

MC

Only one side of the transformer is used and one side of the coil is connected to the left hand pot lug 1. Also, I think there is no connection between point S1 and a switch lug. This would ground the output in bypass.

So far:

39 = 9V
40-46 = 68k
55-56 = 10uF
54-57 = Resistor
58-60 = diode
59 = Q1 B
64 = Q1 C
63 = Q1 E
66-69 = Res to GND
61-96 = 68k
92-95 = 220k
85-91 = 2k2
82-84 = 10uF INPUT
90 = Q2 B (2n3904)
83-87 = Resistor (130k ?)
81-86 = R to GND
86,88,89 = Q2 E
93 = Q2 C
65 - 93 = 10uF

I''m going home

Thanks arph. Here's what I have so far.

(http://www.super-freq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Moonrock-7.jpg)

Very cool what you guys are doing.  Were you able to get the values on the transistors and diodes??

Here this should be most of it (probably full of errors)

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1849818/Moonrock-7.jpg)

Some values

Between 20 and 50 and 47-48 are 27k
37 - 42 is 1M
83-87 is 47k
27-38 looks like 330k
81-86 looks like 8k2
66-69 more likely 3k9

Diodes, no idea germaniums I think 1n34? I think we should look at the foxx tone machine

Wow arph, that's great. I'll check in about the missing elements and see if I can figure these out. I'll also start working on a schematic.

I updated the drawing some. I feel like Q2 is turned around, and the base should go to 64?

(http://www.super-freq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Moonrock-9.jpg)

Quote from: soggybag on August 15, 2014, 07:51:45 PM
I updated the drawing some. I feel like Q2 is turned around, and the base should go to 64

Yes b and c look like they are swapped. Looks like a ecb config transistor then? Perhaps a 2n5306 like the scrambler has on fuzzcentral.

31 seems connected to 38. I have a preliminary schematic.

(http://i.imgur.com/Rd9S6fD.jpg)



Missing values, missing what is between 33 - 36 can't see it.
Didn't find a decent pen either... ;D

If the img doesn't show I'll upload it later from a decent machine..not ipad
Sorry about the sh*tty image guys.

I'd bet those diodes are 1N4148

MC

Quote from: ~arph on August 16, 2014, 09:47:01 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/Rd9S6fD.jpg)



Missing values, missing what is between 33 - 36 can't see it.
Didn't find a decent pen either... ;D

If the img doesn't show I'll upload it later from a decent machine..not ipad
Sorry about the sh*tty image guys.

Wow, awesome work arph. I have som more part values I'll fill in later. I'm going to try and breadboard it for fun tonight or tomorrow. It definitely looks original. The transformer is labeled 42TM012. I don't have this part. I'll just try some of the transformers I have, I feel. Wyllie would have used whatever he had on hand.

http://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/164267.pdf
Seems like a cheap way to obtain the right values of resistance and inductance for that part of the circuit.

This schematic was drawn by V over on the other forum. It was drawn from a unit he owns. This is a very odd circuit not like anything else. I breadboarded this but it's not working. It would great if anyone could supply some expert analysis.

(http://www.super-freq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Moonrock_Trace_Attempt_1.png.jpg)

i think the junction of R4 and R8 and those diodes should be grounded....

and D7 and D8 should probably be oriented opposite one another

Just a quick glance-- I think the polarity of the input cap (C1) is reversed.

Keep up the good work!  Stay after it!!

MC

Looks like I was pretty close then..

arph--

You have a 1M on your drawing going to ground above the inductor.  It is not on the schematic.

And, on the schematic, he has the 1M on the other set of diodes (and no ground) as mentioned above.

It is a descrepancy to look at...  MC

Just trying to be an extra set of eyes.  At least you have the component values now!

Great, thanks for the help. This is getting pretty close. I have to work today but, I might have some time to work on this tonight.

Arph, you were pretty close, you even got the D8 in the right direction.

After some tinkering I have this working, sort of.

Basically following the schematic posted. I'm getting a pretty good overdrive/distortion. I left the last set of clipping diodes off, D11, 12. I figure these are probably not effecting the sound in a major way.

The 1M is not doing what it should. There is distorted guitar at either end. In the. Middle the sound dies out. It seems there should be some soft attack fuzz happening somewhere along the travel.

This 1M pot is tied to the inductor. This part of the circuit is a mystery to me. I have no idea what the inductor is supposed to be doing here. I am using a TL0418 rather than the TL0412 inductor. There was a report that some units had this part. Those units may also have use other part values.

Quote from: soggybag on August 30, 2014, 02:55:25 PM
After some tinkering I have this working, sort of.

Basically following the schematic posted. I'm getting a pretty good overdrive/distortion. I left the last set of clipping diodes off, D11, 12. I figure these are probably not effecting the sound in a major way.

The 1M is not doing what it should. There is distorted guitar at either end. In the. Middle the sound dies out. It seems there should be some soft attack fuzz happening somewhere along the travel.

This 1M pot is tied to the inductor. This part of the circuit is a mystery to me. I have no idea what the inductor is supposed to be doing here. I am using a TL0418 rather than the TL0412 inductor. There was a report that some units had this part. Those units may also have use other part values.

sounds like maybe the wires to the pot are wrong? i've had stuff like that happen. sounds like maybe the center wire should be on one end, and the other two wires may need switching. OR...

if the bias is way off in a fuzz, that can happen too. there's actually a few ranges where a transistor will work, and not all of them are linear.
i discovered that recently with a fuzz i'd built that just didn't sound right... turned out i had the wires reversed on the fuzz pot, and to get it to work i had to bias it some crazy way where it only worked with the trimmers in one position... no range. once i reversed it, suddenly the whole circuit came to life.

not saying you made such a mistake... just saying i've done it. a few times. hell, many, even. ;)

Thanks for the interest in this thread. I'm getting pretty good fuzz. Not super hairy, more smooth overdrivey fuzz. Here's a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHLOrqy-DVg

It's getting into the Moonrock ballpark. But it's not getting the full on Moonrock sound. The Moonrock does this great octave fuzz, with soft attack as you turn up the 1M pot. Right now I'm getting fuzz at one end of the pot, and hint of octave at the other, in the middle the sound fades out. Check out the sounds of the real thing here: http://tonefrenzy.com/products/moonrock-gs-wylie

Sorry to dredge up this old topic, but it seems no one has posted a viable schematic yet.

Anyhow, I was interested in building a clone of this pedal, so decided to see if I could get it to work. Starting with a new diagram drawn from the photos above, I drew a schematic from it. Mine was about the same as the PCB and schematics posted above and they looked mostly right, so it led me to look closer at the PC board, and I believe its been modified in a few significant areas. If that is the case, then the question became how should it have been wired. Since this thread is the only resource I have, my best guess is the following:

The section around the power lead has several suspect areas. There are other areas that are likewise suspect. If rewired as below, this circuit makes more sense (and sounds like the Moonrock video clip above in posting #24).

Pad numbers (holes) refer to the PC board drawn above (reply #8) and uses their numbers. Anyhow, these are the changes that I believe would restore the PCB to what was intended.

  1- Remove the 100uF cap (holes 41 & 36), it should be relocated to holes 55 & 56.
  2- The 10uF cap now at 55 & 56 should be moved to 43 (+ lead) and the ground tab close by.
  3- The 9V power lead should be relocated to pad 41
  4- The LED+ lead should be moved to pad 80
  5- The 47uF lead should be repositioned from pads 80 & 88 to +lead on hole 88 and - to ground (next to pad 81)
  6- The 130K resistor in holes 83 & 87 should be from 83 to ground by pad 81
  7- The circuit works better when the diode pair at pads 17-18 and 21-22 are oriented as full wave clippers (as drawn on the PCB diagram reply#8), not in parallel.

The circuit really woke up when I moved the 130K resistor at base of Q1 and reconnected the lead formerly on Q1 to ground.

This is the schematic that the above changes give, and it sounds good enough that I think it will get boxed:
I sure hope someone else tries breadboarding this and gives some comments.

(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN2951_zpsyzhztxh5.jpg)

Ah, blast from the past.. Interesting thing, I wonder if we can add even more diodes?  :P
Would be nice to have final verdict. The octave section is starting to make more sense now. I recognize the foxx tone machine rectifier section ( pretty heavily modified )

With the schematic above, the octave at one extreme was working great, and the fuzz is sounding like a fuzz throughout the pot turn, but the swell wasn't there at the other end. So had to play with it some more. Finally wound up with 10K and 1uF in series connected between Octave 3 and 2- that brought in a reliable swell and kept the other two effects, but this could use some tweaking though.

After a little more experimenting, I've changed the Octave/Fuzz pot from B1M to a dual B250K. Previously the Octave effect was only near the end of the pot travel, and the same with the swell at the other end. Most of the pot travel gave an essentially non-changing fuzz. This dual pot arrangement gives a lot more variance of the octave and swell effects than before, theres good range on both ends. With the wipers toward the octave end, there is max resistance to the inductor (500K) and essentially 0 resistance between the Q2 emitter diode and the 2 diodes feeding Q3 base. This results in a strong octave, and you don't get the swell effect (as before). As you turn the knob counter clockwise, the cap and resistor parallel increasing resistance in the first pot, cutting the octave effect, while the second pot resistance is decreasing, giving a reasonably smooth transition from octave to swell, with various flavors of fuzz with octave to fuzz with swell. At full counterclockwise, the R and C  are in series with the diode from Q2E, and inductor from Q3E, forming a resonant circuit that swells at about the same notes that you get the octave effect. At full CCW, you get pure swell with just a hint of octave, and some notes give totally crazy swells. Its a very different control than I've ever used before, lots of fun. I also replaced the 10K (described in the posting above) with 22K, keeping the 1uF, so the revised portion of the circuit now looks like the schematic snippet below:

The rest of the circuit on the breadboard is as drawn a few postings above. This circuit is versatile, and I'm about ready to box it.

(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN2959_zps6y1gxmd1.jpg)

I'm gonna need to hear/see this please Russ

I threw this on the breadboard early in the week.

I managed to get a decent swell effect, much like the sound sample on the Wyllie site, but only by adding a 10K or 100K (I'm not in front of my board right now, can't remember which) trimmer between the collector of Q2, and the wiper of octave/fuzz pot. At the swell end of the pot, with the trimmer dialed somewhere near the middle, I get a really good swell. Trimming the collector (above the diode) also helps dial it in, but then it becomes a dance between the two trimmers.

The octave however, has yet to appear. I'll try with a smaller pot.

I'm using a TL019 by the way. The primary side.

The real problem I have with this whole project is that although there are some decent pictures, some important elements are based on hearsay. The swell/octave pot being one of them. It's stated that it's B1M, but I haven't seen a single picture to confirm this. Same goes for 2 of the 3 transistors (Q2/Q3).

Right now, the best fuzz (and swell) I've gotten is courtesy of 2N3700 in Q1/Q3, with a BC547C in Q2.

digi2t- I'm happy you tried breadboarding this circuit. After reading your comment, I went back to verify what is on my breadboard. I had made a lot of changes during the testing, and am able to say that what I posted above is mostly accurate, the major differences are the power circuit uses reverse polarity protection & additional filtering, and I used a different inductor (TL002 secondary 2K coil, not TL012 secondary 5K coil). This was what I had in hand, and I plan to go back and try the 10K side again (haven't tried it since adding the resistor and cap). The schematic below is what is currently on the breadboard. I redrew it this morning to tie the postings above together. If you don't have a dual 250K pot, then use two singles and turn the knob the same on each for testing. Right now its good, but there's definitely room for improvement, and I plan to try your technique for introducing swell. Thank you.

For the octave, it works best with the neck pickup and the tone rolled off, upper portion of the neck from about fret 7 on, like most octaves (humbucker is good, single coil better). For the swell it works best using 2 humbuckers with neck tone rolled off, and bridge tone on full. If a 10K is subbed for the 22K (wiper) then single coils work fine. As usual, YMMV. I'm on the road again for the next couple of weeks, will play with this more when I return.

(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN2961_zpsu74pcrkn.jpg)

Russ, the diode pair going to Q3 base (D7/D8 on the Soggybag trace), face the same way on the original. I've studied the original pics, from a couple of angles, and I can swear on a stack of bibles that both anodes face Q3 base.

I'm experimenting with original trace, which seems to follow what's laid out in the gut shots.

I'm still perplexed as to how it gets that kind of range without resorting to more parts. Maybe component selection is really critical.

I agree that the photos look like the diode pair is facing the same way. On the solder side, that is one of the areas that look suspect- I think this board was modified. I tried both orientations, and think these sound better back to back. I don't have a pedal to compare, just these photos. I'm not claiming this to be a clone, just trying to make it work and sound right. I really appreciate your feedback. Sure wish I could spend some time with it today, but I'm in a time crunch right now.

OK, this is what I have on the breadboard right now, and I'm getting;

- Octave bloom at one end of the pot.
- Normal fuzz in the middle.
- Swell at almost the other end of the pot (there's some span there for sensitivity).
- A sort of plucking cut-off type effect at (almost) completely the end of the pot (past the swell section).

I received my TL018's, and it does make a big difference where the octave is concerned. It just pops a bit more over using a 019 primary side.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moonrock_Trace_DIGI2T_zps7qgj0jjw.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moonrock_Trace_DIGI2T_zps7qgj0jjw.jpg.html)

Now... the added red trace is not where I initially put it. Zooming the pictures, I can almost swear that there is a trace from the collector of Q2, to the anode side of the diode. I think it's mostly hidden underneath the 1M resistor jumper on the trace side. So, I threw a jumper on the breadboard to emulate, but it killed the sustain, and the pot did nothing. On a lark, I threw the jumper to the other side of the diode. All of a sudden, the above mentioned effects came through.

I've played around with a bunch of different transistors, but it seems to give the best results with really low gain transistors in Q1/Q3 (120 - 150), and a medium gain (250 - 350) in Q2.

I'll try to get a video out tomorrow, but I need to run it through speakers to really hear it right. At the moment, everything is through headphones, so that guitar/amp/speakers interaction isn't there.

hey, can one of you guys, or gals, quickly in layman terms tell me what swell and bloom are ?

Quote from: LightSoundGeometry on October 27, 2015, 12:44:29 AM
hey, can one of you guys, or gals, quickly in layman terms tell me what swell and bloom are ?

Sure...

Swell = Every note you pluck start at zero volume, and increases to full volume. Sort of like using the volume control on your guitar to go from 0 to 10 with every note played.

Bloom = Initial note is there, but turns into something else. The root note is played, but in the sustain, it blooms into an octave note. Rose bud blooms into a rose flower.

Now... I'm sure some English lit major is gonna cut in here and get all geeky on me.  :icon_lol:

Quote from: digi2t on October 26, 2015, 10:54:12 PM

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moonrock_Trace_DIGI2T_zps7qgj0jjw.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moonrock_Trace_DIGI2T_zps7qgj0jjw.jpg.html)

Now... the added red trace is not where I initially put it. Zooming the pictures, I can almost swear that there is a trace from the collector of Q2, to the anode side of the diode. .....  I threw the jumper to the other side of the diode. All of a sudden, the above mentioned effects came through.

I'm confused. where is the jumper now that it works? (also, english is not my strong suit.)

The red jumper, just above R12 and D5.

For reference:

https://soundcloud.com/tonefrenzy/moonrock-variety (https://soundcloud.com/tonefrenzy/moonrock-variety)

Yeah, I've heard those. Quite honestly, it's quite a range of tones.

Travel day, an overseas work assignment, and I can't wait to finish it & get back home and play with this some more! I thought it was about ready, but I like what Dino's been doing here, and I think its getting close now. I'm sure some other good ideas are going to get posted here.

Here's a short video. Sound quality isn't great, I think I had the amp too high. To top things off, my breadboard is sucking giant goose balls. Anyway, I hope it conveys the gist.




Thoughts? (I mean on the circuit  :icon_mrgreen:).

Nice video Dino! Comparing whats on your breadboard to the last one I posted: Mine gives a much stronger octave up- either humbuckers or single coils (Ibanez dual HB, Jr w/ single P90, and strat, neck pup, tone dialed back). For swells, mine is much more fiddly, really a PITA- with the 22K on the  wiper it works well with humbuckers, with a 10K it works well with single coils. In both cases, it works better with a combination neck and bridge pup, neck tone dialed back, bridge tone dimed, the Jr is really finicky. Your circuit has more treble, mine is rather dark. I think your fuzz is better, mine lost some with the 250K dual pot, but then it gained a lot more tonal variety. I think yours sounds more like the Moonrock. This is killing me being away from the breadboard for awhile. I think you're close  :icon_biggrin:

Sounds great, Dino! You're on the trail!

Those Soundcloud clips are impressive.
Never heard it before -thanks Doug 8*)

Dino-
I think this is it:
Strong octave at one end, great swells at the other, various combinations as you turn the pot. For the diode pair feeding the base of Q3, if they are parallel with anode to Q3 (like you have) it gives a more trebly response; if back to back like I drew, its a darker sound.
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3051_zpsxlpwbu6m.jpg)

Edit:
Since the above posting I tried some different pot values, the 1M works best. It might be a little better with a reverse audio taper, but I didn't have one in 1M to try. I also tried it without the added diode (purple), and would swear it works better without it- thus IMHO it really doesn't need the second input at the swell position (diode lead from the Collector of Q2 to the pot/inductor junction), this circuit works great without it. Just cross out that portion with the diode in purple in the schematic above. I'm boxing it.

Edit 2:
I tried an audio taper 1M- thats the ticket! This gives a good variety of swell effect, much better than the linear pot, such that there is now a lot of variety with very little turn of the pot- deep swell at one end, linear lessening of the effect, straight fuzz, to various amounts of octave blended in until its a powerful octave at the other end. Also, using an audio pot for volume gives a smoother response. This is a fun circuit to play with!

Wow, great work, you guys got pretty far with this. I have it the breadboard again at home. Mine wasn't working on the first pass. I'll need to debug it so I can join the party.

That's great work Russ!! Got a couple of amps on the bench right now, so the breadboard is on the sidelines for the moment.

Just spitballin', only because the original does what it does the way it seems to be designed. Could any of those diodes be zeners or shottky's?

BTW, that 10uF off of Q2E seems to be the wrong way around compared to the original. Is that intentional?

Dino- Good catch, that electro is labeled backward   :icon_redface:  - its probably time to draw up another schemo.

Like I wrote earlier, I think the photos show a modified board, and this is my attempt to figure out how it should be. Wish I had a pristine one to look at. I hope someone else tries this out and either improves it or concurs.

QuoteWish I had a pristine one to look at.

Yeah... you and me both!

QuoteI hope someone else tries this out and either improves it or concurs.

Dang... I shouldn't have started on that damn amplifier! No room on my bench right now. Post a sample of yours if you can. I'm super curious.

With the different changes described it might be confusing. Just to be clear, this is what is on my breadboard now:

(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3052_zps0odqhnm0.jpg)

A couple of minor changes from the last schematic- 10uF cap on the Swell-Fuzz-Octave pot, 100uF cap on the Q3C network, 2M2 at input and turned the 10uF the other way. Its boxed, sounds great: strong octave up with any pickup, but best with neck and tone dialed back, great swells at about the same notes as the octave, really likes strat neck and middle with tone dialed back, fuzz is good everywhere on the neck, any pickup combo.

(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3081_zpsxdjjcxcg.jpg) (http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3077_zpsh9kqkpmk.jpg)
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3080_zpsje9bi81o.jpg) (http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3076_zps6fqboyec.jpg)

looks well 'equipped'. [C4 has lost its polarity.]

D7 and D8 - bizarre.

Demo time ?

DA- Positive side of C4 to the base of Q2  :icon_redface: I agree, D7 & D8 are strange, but this gets a better swell with them that way. I tried both ways, and its a fuller sound with a standard back to back configuration, but this seems to make the difference.

Kipper- I'd love to get a demo of this, any volunteers to help me out on this?  (I'm on my way to India again, will return on Sunday.)

Hows this for a deal Russ?
I'll go to India for you. I love India.
You stay put and do a demo.
Sounds good to me just mail your air ticket to me ok. :)

Heck of a deal! But I like India too, this makes about the 35th trip there, and around the 6th to Hyderabad. Earlier this month it was Jaipur, just before Diwali. Thats the most elephants I've seen in one place!

Now I just need some means of recording a demo- or a volunteer.

Well you give my love to India, while I pour over the last posted schematic. Hhhhhmm
Is the 10uf bipolar on the gate of Q2?
What's going on with the two power supply's 2n7000 and BS250? Is that the pnp fet transistor?
And probably a few more novelty questions too.
Can't believe m even thinking of breadboarding this monster......

Rich-
You could use a 1N5817 Schottky instead of the BS250 MOSFET and just lose a couple of hundred millivolts, and a 3PDT instead of the Millennium Bypass (1 less diode  :icon_biggrin: ). C4 pos is toward base of Q2- how did I miss that? You have many choices for the inductor, this thing even worked well with the secondary side of a 42TL002 (2k side). I'd guess that the primary of a 42TL022 (Tychobrahe inductor) would work fine.

It should be able to fit in a 1590A- maybe Perrow will give it the curly treatment?

I played around with a pot at Q1E, C5K replacing the 8K2 with the 47uF cap on the wiper- same resistor values for B/C and C/V+; it gives some nice octave variability, you can dial it in better than with just your guitar volume. When I get back I want to try some other things.

Inductor?
What s this witchcraft you speak of?

Maybe I could try waiting until your done messing with it.
Hhhhhmmm

Here's my vero take on the Cozybuilder Moon Stone...

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_zpsvzhzqneh.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_zpsvzhzqneh.jpg.html)

Quote from: digi2t on December 05, 2015, 08:45:47 PM
Here's my vero take on the Cozybuilder Moon Stone...

That's really nice. If you ever decide to do a turret board layout of that I might have to erect a shrine to you!

-Rob

Sorry folks, disregard the last vero I put out. There was a snafu with one of the ground jumpers, and I didn't catch it until the build tonight.

Here is the corrected, and verified, version.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_verified_zpspjyvv8cj.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_verified_zpspjyvv8cj.jpg.html)

Hen's Tooth Cafe episode coming soon. Maybe tomorrow.

Dino-
Nice job on the vero layout! I was hoping someone would try this out, and I'm really looking forward to hearing your Hen's Tooth Cafe upload.
Cheers,
Russ

Thanks man, but more thanks to you for creating the work-a-like circuit. Your call on the Log 1M pot for the fuzz control is spot on. At dead center, it's the most fuzzy, with one side going for upper octave meltdown, and the other side going into tsunami swell territory.

I found that transistor choice can really affect the character of this circuit. As the original, two identical transistors in the Q1/Q3 spot is ideal, no matter what you choose to use. As for Q2, going higher than, or lower than, gain of the two others is what makes a big difference. The real impact here is on compression, and octave presentation. With the transistors mentioned on my vero, this thing is an octave monster. It's the pissed off love child of a Foxx Tone Machine, and a Superfuzz. At the octave side of the dial, pickup selection, or tone knob position, seems to be a moot point. It just doesn't give a shit. It just screams octave, and big chords have that classic Sperfuzz "clang" to them. The 2N3700's are rated at 100-300 hFe, while the BC547B sits at 200-450 hFe. Using the 547's in Q1/Q3, and a 2N3700 in Q2, gives more of a compressed, hissier, fuzz feel, with a bit less octave scream. The inverse (like my vero), give a more open fuzz, and more octave scream, especially blooming in the decay. That was my choice. I soldered in sockets, and went through an auditioning process. Once I was happy, I soldered the transistors of choice to the sockets. I tried 2N3904, 2N5088, 2N2222, and even 2N5306's, before settling on the set I have in there now. Feel free to experiment, YMMV.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/DSCF4715_zpsdeyzqdvt.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/DSCF4715_zpsdeyzqdvt.jpg.html)

(The paralleled resistors in the middle are a 150K/1M combo, to make 130K. I didn't have any!! :icon_eek:)

The middle of the dial, is where the most.... modest?... fuzz is to be found. It's actually a very tight sweet spot, but it's there.

The opposite side starts getting into swell territory. The settings here are very dependant on how hot your pickups are, and how hard your strumming. You need to be consistant on your attack for it to cooperate fully, but fun nonetheless.

One thing for certain, in any mode, it's VERY sensitive to the guitars controls input. More so than any other circuit I've ever encountered. Nudging the volume a smidgen can take you from a gentle overdrive to "screaming like your hair's on fire" octave in a heartbeat. It's nuts!

Anyway, the wifeypoo and I have some erands to run this morning, so I'll be boxing this later today. I should be able to get a video out by tonight. 

It's done. I almost screwed the pooch on this one, underestimating the enclosure size. In the end, I had to grind the jacks a touch, and all was well. Still, it was a tight fit with the 16mm pots. 9mm's would have allowed me a bit more room for the jacks.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/DSCF4716_zps3i7r5jkq.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/DSCF4716_zps3i7r5jkq.jpg.html)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/DSCF4717_zpsuyfm7yhi.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/DSCF4717_zpsuyfm7yhi.jpg.html)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/DSCF4718_zpshbyljs6f.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/DSCF4718_zpshbyljs6f.jpg.html)

And... as promised, the customary HTC episode.



Does it sound exactly like the Moonrock? At this point, who gives a shit, this sounds pretty grand to me. Thanks a bunch once again to Russ for his work on this.

Dino-
Good call on the Q2 transistor, a higher Hfe then the 2N3904 makes a significant difference in the response of the Octave/Fuzz/Swell pot. After reading your posting, I tried various transistors in Q1 & Q3 and couldn't hear a difference, but Q2- wow! With a 2N5089 there was octave all across the pot, with a 2N5088 it was less, more of a hint of octave where before it was pure fuzz, BC547C responded like the 2N5089, while BC547B was more like the 2N5088. I had looked at the PCB pinout requirement for Q2, and assumed the transistor was chosen for that, and didn't look into the amplification characteristics, sure glad you did!

Sounds really good, might need to order a transformer or two  :D

Wow, sounds really good. I love how it responds to guitar volume control dynamics.

Thats so cool Din and Russ. Good job.

Fantastic work! Well, I've wanted one of these for a while and found one Monday and purchased it. My Christmas present to myself! Should be here tomorrow. I will compare it to your fine work. I had planned on trying to build a clone anyway and still plan to do it this winter. I wonder what it would take to make this into a New Moon? That would probably be the next challenge for me since this is more than likely 95% of the original. The New Moon is the same circuit but separate controls for drive, swell and tone. Also has 2 switches drive & sustain. Really wish I would have connected with Glen when I had the chance.

Quote from: 3onthetree on December 15, 2015, 09:15:55 PM
Fantastic work! Well, I've wanted one of these for a while and found one Monday and purchased it. My Christmas present to myself! Should be here tomorrow. I will compare it to your fine work. I had planned on trying to build a clone anyway and still plan to do it this winter. I wonder what it would take to make this into a New Moon? That would probably be the next challenge for me since this is more than likely 95% of the original. The New Moon is the same circuit but separate controls for drive, swell and tone. Also has 2 switches drive & sustain. Really wish I would have connected with Glen when I had the chance.

Well DANG!! Hope you'd be interested at looking at yours, and comparing it to the original traces. As far as I could see, this one seems to be the closest to the gutshots;

(http://www.super-freq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Moonrock_Trace_Attempt_1.png.jpg)

R14 is in the wrong place in this schematic (should be directly above D9), but everything else seems to line up with the pictures. Transistor voltages would be excellent.

On  the New Moon, I've read that one of the two switches is an octave lift, but who knows. accesses the octave in swell mode. I just picked this tidbit up...

QuoteAs mentioned, on the New Moon pedal there's a switch to activate the octave effect so that you can get the octave and swell together. This is quite easy... add a switch from the center lug to one of the outer lugs on the effect potentiometer --the side with the octave effect-- and that will turn on the octave and you can rotate the knob to the other end and activate the swell function.

EDIT:

The above mentioned switch mod works!  :icon_biggrin: I opened up my pedal, and stuck a jumper between lugs 2 and 3 of the Fuzz pot. Instant octave scream coming into the swell. Daddy likes! Gotta try and figure a way to squeeze a small toggle in here now.  :icon_eek: I have to update the vero.

OK that's killer news! Now I am real motivated to start tweaking a Moonrock clone to New Moon territory. Gonna have to find some more money in the couch and buy some parts. I cannot wait for Santa to come around tomorrow.

Here's the updated vero with the octave/swell switch.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_verified_Octave%20sw_zpscdxfk2pi.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_verified_Octave%20sw_zpscdxfk2pi.jpg.html)

Russ... got a question...

On your version, the cap between lugs 2 and 3 on the fuzz pot is spec'd as 1uf on the earlier version, and then 10uf on the later. Does it make a big difference on the swell?

Dino-
It might be my imagination, but I thought the swell was better with the 10uF cap.

OK. I never thought to try it with the 1uf, that's why I was asking. Just an oversight on my part.  :icon_wink:

I received #27 Moonrock on Thursday and I can say it's very much in the same spirit of the video posted by Dino but I think the pedal Dino demoed is just a little crazier on both ends of the spectrum. One thing to note, I'm not entirely sure of the consistency of Moonrock to Moonrock. I say that because I doubt Glenn did any sort of production. Most likely, everything he did was made to order. I have a feeling that some pronounce octave and or swell to different degrees from pedal to pedal exists. The fuzz on mine seems a little smoother than the video but I really had to mess with it to get crazy swells. Some of my guitars I tried refused to do it. Surprising that I have 2 Supro's and could not get either to do the extreme swell like in Dino's video. I thought it would really go crazy over hot single coils. I knew this pedal would like a Strat and it is really awesome on my parts caster. I wish I still had my USA Strat with the 50's style pickups. I have a feeling Glenn used a Strat to dial these in being a Hendrix fan in all. The swell worked OK on my and Danelectro but went nuts on my 4 pickup Hound Dog Taylor Kawai. The octave, fuzz range, pick attack sensitivity and responsiveness from the volume control on the guitar all seems right in line with the clone. Although mine can get a good nasty fuzz it's really a fantastic mild fuzz overdrive. To me that is where this pedal really excels. I love the way you can dramatically change the fuzz using the volume control on the guitar.

I opened my up to replace the battery and it looks REALLY fragile to take apart. I know I will and will report back any value differences but I really just want to build Russ and Dino's version sooner than later. Since no video on YouTube exists for the real deal I will try and get to posting one this coming week.

Well, that would be really... swell! :icon_mrgreen: (Sorry, I couldn't resist)

Yeah, don't go mucking with it too much if it's fragile. No point damaging it. You description of the original is right in line with what I originally breadboarded. I'm pretty sure that what I traced from the pictures must be fairly correct, since it reacted the same way with my guitars as well. Nothing as outrageous as the internet clips, and it play nice with some, and not with others.

I'll stand by Russ' version since it's much more versatile, and seems to not care as much what kind of guitar/pickups you use. I think adding a drive and tone control would really round out the package well, bringing it into New Moon territory. The "octave with swell" angle's been covered now, so that's one less thing on the list.

Dino- this is great news that this is the second original Moonrock to be compared to your video (that I know of- the other is in Canada). The other reports similar results to 3onthetree.

For a drive control I replaced the 8K2 in Q1E with a C5K pot (you could use a C10K), with the 47uF on the wiper. I'm currently working on a tonestack for this beastie, breadboarding today. I hope to have an updated schematic soon, and maybe another wedgie pedal  ;D

3onthetree - do you take requests?

Quote from: 3onthetree on December 19, 2015, 01:44:05 PM
.... but went nuts on my 4 pickup Hound Dog Taylor Kawai.

this. can we hear some of this, please?

Heres the Moonstone with a couple of cool extras and some minor tweaks:

  1) A drive pot is added to the emitter of Q1. This allows you to adjust the gain to allow use of pickups from hot humbuckers down to mild single coils, and still retain response with the guitar volume control. I think it works better with the reverse audio 5K, the 10K tamed it a tad.
  2) A tone circuit (thank you Gus), with one tweak- the 100K to ground ups the treble just enough, very responsive, wide range. No recovery circuit needed, this has plenty of horsepower!
  3) Octave switch as Dino described earlier, so that you get full octave with the swell- a very nice feature.
  4) Reduced the cap on the OFS pot to 4u7- this tames the octave when you turn the pot, so that you get a better fuzz in the middle without octave, but still gives blended octave toward the octave end of the pot. A 1uF just kills the octave blend, and 10uF allows octave across the whole pot range, 4u7 gave the best overall response on my breadboard.
  5) Changed output pot to A100K to play nice with other pedals
  6) I get a very even response with the 2SC945 in the Q2 position, and 2N3904 in Q1 & Q3. Not tame, but even!

(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3094_zps1rkebyez.jpg)

I can't play shit but it sure sounds good. I will get a video this week for sure.

Quote from: duck_arse on December 20, 2015, 08:45:47 AM
3onthetree - do you take requests?

Quote from: 3onthetree on December 19, 2015, 01:44:05 PM
.... but went nuts on my 4 pickup Hound Dog Taylor Kawai.

this. can we hear some of this, please?

Beautiful work Russ. I'll see to creating an updated vero for the "Moon Stone Deluxe".

A little more research revealed some more info on the New Moon controls. I found these two quotes from Harmony Central reveiws;

QuoteTwo gain knobs slightly diferrent voices, a subtle tone knob, two mini switches, one to boost gain and effect, and one two add octave to the swell feature.

and,

QuoteWhat this pedal does is take that same volume-sensitive overdrive-to-fuzz-to-scrambler sound palette and allow you to amp it up even more heavily with the two additional drive stages. There's also a mini-switch that puts an extra sizzle on top of one of the drives (that's the "half" I mentioned above).

Now, the second quote, I take with a huge grain of salt. I find it hard to believe that the New Moon circuit could be that fundamentally different. I could however see the second switch acting as a high/low drive switch, with a pot acting as a drive control in either mode. The tone pot is there, octave/swell pot, drive, and volume. The two switches; octave/swell, and drive hi/lo would round out the controls.

I'm curious to know if a two stage drive would render the circuit more flexible insofar as pickup types are concerned. Higher gain for lower output pups, and lower gain for hotter pups? Just spitballin'.

Russ...

Just something I saw. Your input cap C1... is that really a 10uF NP?

Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on December 20, 2015, 03:03:32 PM
Russ...

Just something I saw. Your input cap C1... is that really a 10uF NP?

He forgot the + symbol. Positive to the input. Though I can't see a NP hurting.

Sorry, Dino is correct, plus towards transistor. I've been playing with it all morning, and think its ready to box  :icon_biggrin:

Quote from: Cozybuilder on December 20, 2015, 03:25:51 PM
Sorry, Dino is correct, plus towards transistor. I've been playing with it all morning, and think its ready to box  :icon_biggrin:

Really?? I thought it was + towards the guitar.  :icon_rolleyes:

You have it right on your Vero layout. That pesky 2M2 anti-pop ground tie at the input, different than the tracings.

Oh no, this is posting 666  :icon_twisted:

Quote from: Cozybuilder on December 20, 2015, 06:55:01 PM
You have it right on your Vero layout. That pesky 2M2 anti-pop ground tie at the input, different than the tracings.

Oh no, this is posting 666  :icon_twisted:

Aw crap!!! You're right... I was looking at the wrong drawings. Positive to base folks.

There you go, got us over the 666 hump. :icon_mrgreen:

Here's the Deluxe version. I managed to keep the same board size.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_DELUXE_verified_zpst0owdrhx.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_DELUXE_verified_zpst0owdrhx.jpg.html)

I'm wondering, what would be the best route for a high/low gain switch? Two different cap values off the gain pot, or two different resistor values off Q2 emitter? Just trying to figure out how to close the loop on all the New Moon controls.

I'm just guessing, but maybe 3K3 between Q1E and lug 3 of the gain pot, with a SPST to short it out for high and low gain. Alternatively, a resistor between the wiper and the cap, maybe 2K2, and again a SPST to short it out. Whaddayathimk?

Quote from: Cozybuilder on December 24, 2015, 10:01:27 PM
I'm just guessing, but maybe 3K3 between Q1E and lug 3 of the gain pot, with a SPST to short it out for high and low gain. Alternatively, a resistor between the wiper and the cap, maybe 2K2, and again a SPST to short it out. Whaddayathimk?

Yup, that sounds good. Would be easy to integrate, without modding the board size. I bequeathed the first Moon Stone as a Christmas present, so I no longer have the first build to experiment with. I'll have to assemble this on the breadboard again to validate the extras.

I think it might be cool to export this as an OSH Park project at some point, albeit that is a bit over my pay grade. But it would be nice for builders to have a nice PCB to build this on. I just think that it's a really nice fuzz pedal. Very unique.  8)

This is still on a breadboard, so after family obligations today, I'll try these and a couple of other ideas.

OSH Park sounds like it would be a good thing. I use plain perf on my builds, and this one takes a bit of time. A PCB would be fantastic, especially if it was designed to fit a 1590B :icon_biggrin:

Are there any DIY PCB design gurus that would like to give it a go?

Meanwhile, the primed 4 knob wedgie is in the hot-box.

(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3096_zpsov1wyrsr.jpg)

I tried 3K between the pot and emitter, and it killed the swell, but came back reduced with the octave/swell switch. Same results with 3K between the cap and wiper, but reducing to 2K2 the swell came back just a hint, and was good with the octave/swell switch on. Reducing further to 1K8 was a lot better as a low gain option, and shorted (normal) there is a big difference between the two positions, so if you want a low/high option, IMHO this one works well. Worth trying it out to see if you like it. It might be a very good option for those opting for a 2-knob rather than the 4 knob. And it would be especially versatile if you go for a 2 switch 2 knob version.

So now that the Moonrock's been successfully reverse engineered, how long do y'all wager it'll be before there's a $30 asian-made clone (and more expensive boutiquey versions) on the market?

that will depend on how soon one of us does a pcb layout, most likely.

Question: can a diode be used instead of that BS150?

I suppose it could, but isn't the mosfet route more efficient where low voltage drop and current handling are concerned?

Anyway, the original didn't have any protection at all, so I guess anything is better than nothing. :icon_mrgreen:

It's because they're rare and expensive where I live. I'll try to do a layout of it.

Just use a Schottky diode (e.g. 1N5817) in place of the BS250, you'll drop about 0.2V instead of 0.01V. I've got one wired on my breadboard now, it sounds fine.

You could also use a diode in parallel with the power supply (cathode to V+, anode to ground). This provides less protection than the MOSFET or the series diode, but is still the most common way to protect circuits and drops no voltage at all. A 1N400x, 1N581x, or other power diode are all equally good for this setup.

Transistor fuzz circuits don't need the headroom, though, so I'm with Russ. Use an inline Schottky. That's what I do on ALL of my pedal builds. I doubt even a 4001 or other conventional silicon diode will hurt the performance of this circuit, though it sounds like Russ could tell us with a couple minutes' experimentation. :)

Marcos-
Use whatever diode you have to replace the BS250- I just tested a few, from Schottky (1N5817, BAT46), Silicon (1N4001, 1N4148), even Germanium (1N34a), and I don't hear a difference in the effect.

Theres a circuit change that is worthwhile for biasing Q3: Move the 130K and 100uF from the Collector to the Base. The new setup for Q3C is V+ - 68K - 1N4148 - collector. For Q3B its now 130K - 1M (with 100uF to ground at the junction) - 1N4148 - Base.
This helps the swell. Dino incorporated this change in his new Vero (soon to come). We've been busy  ;D

Like this?

(http://s30.postimg.org/dq534r6jx/moon.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/dq534r6jx/)

Marcos- Yes, thats it.

Heres the updated schematic for the basic 2-knob, and another for the full featured 5-knob-2-toggle version. Its been a real pleasure collaborating with Dino on this project.

(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3101_zpsislgdg8n.jpg) (http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3103_zpswv2bmspg.jpg)

Edit: I just realized that 1 and 3 are labeled backwards on the OFS pot on the 5-knob schematic. 3 should be for the Octave side, 1 for the  Swell side, like the 2-knob schematic shows. Sorry  :icon_redface:

It's been a real blast to work on this. I've updated the vero, and drew up a schematic in TinyCAD for the uber deluxe version. Here they are;

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_DELUXE_verified_zpslj5oia9t.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_DELUXE_verified_zpslj5oia9t.jpg.html)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone%20deluxe_FINAL_zpspjs2l1ph.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone%20deluxe_FINAL_zpspjs2l1ph.jpg.html)

I've also updated the two knob version vero, including the octave switch. Removal of the switch simply gives you an original Moonrock, but the switch adds a nice dimension. Both versions reflect the updated Q3 biasing.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_verified_Octave%20sw_zpsrkrsamxo.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_verified_Octave%20sw_zpsrkrsamxo.jpg.html)

Happy New Year everybody, and may the moon shine brightly upon you all!

Another update folks. Added feedback resistor improves performance. Schematic, and three flavors to choose from...

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone%20deluxe_FINAL_zpswc20m0he.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone%20deluxe_FINAL_zpswc20m0he.jpg.html)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_verified_Octave_zpskd9megl9.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_verified_Octave_zpskd9megl9.jpg.html)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_DRIVE_verified_zpsacmgwjrt.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_DRIVE_verified_zpsacmgwjrt.jpg.html)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_DELUXE_verified_zpsyptdpriw.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_DELUXE_verified_zpsyptdpriw.jpg.html)

Sorry for the constant updating, but as these things can go, they evolve.  :icon_wink:

I'm glad I didn't got time to try to do a pcb layout of it, there was 2 updates since I started to draw the schematic on Eagle :icon_razz:

Marcos- good idea to hold off. Once the feedback resistor was soldered in, it killed the swell. I'm working on that today, and hopefully get it fixed. I'm going to try a few ideas, we'll see. The feedback really improves sustain and guitar knob function, and the swell circuitry is working when the Octave/swell switch is engaged, it could just be the feedback resistor value needs tweaking. Breadboarding ahead  :icon_confused:

I want to be clear that the error is mine. I wrapped the leads of the resistor on the perf card already built, and it worked fine. I sent the info to Dino before soldering the resistor; after soldering, the swell was gone. I should have waited until this was verified with a soldered joint before sharing the change. Sorry for any confusion.

NEWS FROM THE BREADBOARD.... :icon_redface:

The feedback resistor idea fed false hope, and we jumped the gun on the latest updates. Finally, it seems that the best overall performance was without a feedback resistor between Q1B and Q2E. So, please REMOVE R21 FROM THE VERO (140K resistor on the schematic).

Fortunately, it does not affect the layouts of any of the last released veros. I will update the veros and schematic shortly, for clarity's sake.

Sorry folks, that's just the way the egg rolls sometimes. :icon_rolleyes:

These are all verified now. There was a small error on the Drive and Deluxe versions, which involved a forgotten cut around the Millenium bypass, but that's been corrected.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_verified_Octave_zpskd9megl9.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_verified_Octave_zpskd9megl9.jpg.html)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_DRIVE_verified_zpsng3gku9m.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_DRIVE_verified_zpsng3gku9m.jpg.html)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_DELUXE_verified_zpsfuo7q4be.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone_vero_DELUXE_verified_zpsfuo7q4be.jpg.html)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone%20deluxe_FINAL_zps3zz3lth6.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/Moon%20Stone%20deluxe_FINAL_zps3zz3lth6.jpg.html)

I've just completed the Deluxe version, and it's great. Goes from tame, to completely pseudo-ringmod hairy octave fuzz, all with fantastic interactivity with the guitar volume. Maxed out, it makes a Superfuzz with really high gain transistors sound like a whimpering puppy. The drive controls really help set the limit, from which you can simply back off from with the guitar controls. The Fine Tune pot is also very useful in setting the swell just right for whatever threshold you wish to work with. The hi/lo gain is also useful, giving you the option to cut back on the drive when it's over noon. I contemplated this as a second footswitch, but since it's easy to manage with the guitar's volume too, I went with the toggle option. Just an awesome, awesome, awesome pedal. Should be illegal to be this happy.  ;D

Fantastic work Russ. Gonna be hard to make this "better".

Hen's Tooth Café vid tomorrow.

OK, mandatory gut shots...

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/DSCF4739_zpsvdjlmjn1.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/DSCF4739_zpsvdjlmjn1.jpg.html)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Wyllie%20Moonrock/DSCF4740_zpsuqlsqqre.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Wyllie%20Moonrock/DSCF4740_zpsuqlsqqre.jpg.html)

And the video. Just one problem with the video though; This video is a bit deceptive where the swell section is concerned, because the camera's mic is actually able to pick up the picked string acoustically before the note swells out of the amp. The Explorer is really resonant, and it really doesn't do it justice. That's the price you pay for trying not to clip the mic. At volume, the swell, set just right, is awesome. Single note runs take on a new dimension when each note blooms in. The Deluxe allows for much more control of the swell, so the runs can be played quite a bit faster than what can be achieved with the original 2 knob version. Every guitar you plug into this pedal will offer you something different. Anywho, my wife actually commented for the first time EVER!! that she thought that the swell effect sounded really cool. So... good enough for her... good enough for me. On with the show...

Sounds REALLY cool, I especially like those "lower-gain-rolled-back-guitar-volume-with-the-neck-pickup-octave-tones!" It really gets that classic octavia thing going on, maybe even a bit smoother and more pronounced. Having a swell feature to tinker around with is just the icing on the cake. I'm not ready to tackle something that complicated yet but maybe someday

Today marks the 2 year anniversary of Glenn's passing. I felt it was necessary to post some videos that at least represent some of the sounds from a Moonrock. These were a bit hastily made and please excuse the shitty playing as this is more about the sound of the pedal. 

https://youtu.be/cOQ6md-MTfQ (https://youtu.be/cOQ6md-MTfQ)

https://youtu.be/vJ0Yxqxn_EI (https://youtu.be/vJ0Yxqxn_EI)

I also posted a Video of a Wyllie Fuzzier pedal and a Rising Sun.

Quote from: 3onthetree on January 25, 2016, 10:04:10 PM
Today marks the 2 year anniversary of Glenn's passing. I felt it was necessary to post some videos that at least represent some of the sounds from a Moonrock. These were a bit hastily made and please excuse the shitty playing as this is more about the sound of the pedal. 

https://youtu.be/cOQ6md-MTfQ (https://youtu.be/cOQ6md-MTfQ)

https://youtu.be/vJ0Yxqxn_EI (https://youtu.be/vJ0Yxqxn_EI)

I also posted a Video of a Wyllie Fuzzier pedal and a Rising Sun.

Really cool man! Thanks!

Quote from: digi2t on January 08, 2016, 08:55:16 PM


And the video. Just one problem with the video though; This video is a bit deceptive where the swell section is concerned, because the camera's mic is actually able to pick up the picked string acoustically before the note swells out of the amp. The Explorer is really resonant, and it really doesn't do it justice. That's the price you pay for trying not to clip the mic. At volume, the swell, set just right, is awesome. Single note runs take on a new dimension when each note blooms in. The Deluxe allows for much more control of the swell, so the runs can be played quite a bit faster than what can be achieved with the original 2 knob version. Every guitar you plug into this pedal will offer you something different. Anywho, my wife actually commented for the first time EVER!! that she thought that the swell effect sounded really cool. So... good enough for her... good enough for me. On with the show...

Wow! This sounds really great! Nice work!

So, a question.  Does the "swell" function on the Moonrock have anything at all, whatsoever, in connection or common with the "swell" function on the Prescription Electronics Experience pedal?

The circuit topology sure is different. From what I see, the Moonrock swell function is a product of the audio transformer, with the following capacitor playing the role of the maximum swell delay.

I put together a version using a PNP transistor for Q2, which allows the use of a Germanium transistor. This one has Gain, OFS (Octave-Fuzz-Swell), Tone, and Volume pots, and a toggle to add octave to the swell. Its a super versatile circuit, currently I have a Russian GT308V in Q2, it sounds a little different than a silicon PNP in that slot, but not as much as you might imagine. The Q2 is in a 4-place SIP socket wired E-C-B-E so that different pinout PNPs may be used, the other transistors are soldered direct.

This is housed in a 1590B wedgie enclosure http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=110590.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=110590.0)

Schematic:
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3138_zps9x2sgnzy.jpg)

Build:
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3133_zpshzmbndic.jpg) (http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3134_zpsez0g30ot.jpg) (http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3135_zpsqsuvv8um.jpg)

Gutz:
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3136_zpszuh5vr8b.jpg)

Quote from: Cozybuilder on January 30, 2016, 11:18:25 AM
I put together a version using a PNP transistor for Q2, which allows the use of a Germanium transistor. This one has Gain, OFS (Octave-Fuzz-Swell), Tone, and Volume pots, and a toggle to add octave to the swell. Its a super versatile circuit, currently I have a Russian GT308V in Q2, it sounds a little different than a silicon PNP in that slot, but not as much as you might imagine.

That is insanely cool. Super cool. All out of words for how cool that is.  :icon_lol:

- Rob

Quote from: Cozybuilder on January 30, 2016, 11:18:25 AM
I put together a version using a PNP transistor for Q2, which allows the use of a Germanium transistor. This one has Gain, OFS (Octave-Fuzz-Swell), Tone, and Volume pots, and a toggle to add octave to the swell. Its a super versatile circuit, currently I have a Russian GT308V in Q2, it sounds a little different than a silicon PNP in that slot, but not as much as you might imagine. The Q2 is in a 4-place SIP socket wired E-C-B-E so that different pinout PNPs may be used, the other transistors are soldered direct.

This is housed in a 1590B wedgie enclosure http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=110590.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=110590.0)

Schematic:
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3138_zps9x2sgnzy.jpg)

Build:
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3133_zpshzmbndic.jpg) (http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3134_zpsez0g30ot.jpg) (http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3135_zpsqsuvv8um.jpg)

Gutz:
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3136_zpszuh5vr8b.jpg)

that is magnificent , awe inspiring work right there. this is as good as it can get ..except I would want mine in blue which is my favorite color lol

Quote from: Cozybuilder on January 30, 2016, 11:18:25 AM
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3138_zps9x2sgnzy.jpg)

Germanium fuzz experiments sound like fun! I have a couple questions about what you did.

1) Shouldn't the 130k resistor between Q1 & Q2 be returned to 9v instead of ground in your circuit? (This would also require reversing the 10uF caps in between, unless the Q1C voltage is way high) I'm kind of surprised it performs similarly with the biasing as it is. Then again...

2) Why choose Q2 for the swap? That appears to me to be a phase splitter with little to no gain. It seems like you'd get more flavor by swapping either of the other two transistors. Did you try? If not, could you? For science? :D

It looks like I have a homework assignment  8)

I'll try PNP in Q1 and see what it does. It'll be a couple of days- other irons in the fire.....

Edit:
I just tried tying the 130K to +9V, reversing C3 and C4. Results: the circuit responded with a slight octave effect throughout the OFS settings (which it did not do before), and the swell effect was significantly reduced. The octave was excellent, but not better than before.

Don't know why I didn't think of trying PNP in the other positions :icon_question:, but playing with Q1 will be next.

I listened to dino's tooth's last night - now I know what you mean by swell.

Oh mu God! I really love this pedal!  8)

Quote from: Cozybuilder on January 30, 2016, 11:18:25 AM
I put together a version using a PNP transistor for Q2, which allows the use of a Germanium transistor. This one has Gain, OFS (Octave-Fuzz-Swell), Tone, and Volume pots, and a toggle to add octave to the swell. Its a super versatile circuit, currently I have a Russian GT308V in Q2, it sounds a little different than a silicon PNP in that slot, but not as much as you might imagine. The Q2 is in a 4-place SIP socket wired E-C-B-E so that different pinout PNPs may be used, the other transistors are soldered direct.

This is housed in a 1590B wedgie enclosure

Gutz:
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3136_zpszuh5vr8b.jpg)

Damn Cozy, I gotta get a drill template for the top mounted jacks on that 1590B. I love it, but my drill ability is so shameful.. I guess I gotta measure more.

chuckd666- I know there are a lot of different ways to make accurate measurements, but heres an OCD method. First I decide where all the fixed box components will go- pots, jacks, switches, LEDs, circuit card with a way to solidly attach it etc, draw it, remeasure, and drill for one or two components at a time & test fit, checking for clearances for knobs and toggles and their operation. Sometimes I need to fill a hole when the part needs to be moved (JB Weld to the rescue). When everything is in place and I like it, switches are operable etc, then I cut a perf and the mounting system for it (it might be on-board pots, standoffs, or brackets). Once I know the size and locations of interferences for the circuit card, I do the layout.

For the wedgie 4-knob MoonStone, the hole pattern that I used is as follows:

(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3144_zpsc1ysba2n.jpg)

I set the measurement with a dial caliper with a depth gauge, like this one:
(http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_16342.jpg)

Then set an adjustable square to that dimension using the depth gauge:
(http://www.diefenbacher.com/Adjustable%20square.jpg)

Then stick a piece of masking tape on the box, and mark a cross for the hole center. Once the holes are all marked, I check it, erase the mistake, and re-measure etc until its right. To drill accurately, I use a 0.5mm drill bit to align it in my drill press- it would be fine to simply use a sharp hole punch and drill a small pilot hole. 1/16" is the largest pilot I'd use, then progressively step up the hole diameter. Tedious but accurate, and I'm sure there are better ways.

If you use unpainted enclosures (like myself), you can forego the tape. Fine point Sharpie direct on the enclosure, which washes off completely with a touch of brake cleaner.

Excellent info. I think part of my problem may be lack of tools (there I go blaming tools again...) but those calipers seem pretty vital for tight work like this. Thanks for the walkthrough! Appreciated.

One of my favorite tools for marking up off an edge...

(http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_13841.jpg)

Machinists pocket ruler. Not expensive. The movable guide acts as a set stopper for quick transfers.

Also handy for measuring string to fret height.

Keppy sent me down the rabbit hole with the comment on biasing. After measuring the voltages on Q1, I was surprised it worked too. So the first objective was to get a better bias voltage spread, which got me to tinkering and eventually wound up with 1M feedback between B&C, which gave a little better sustain as well as an acceptable voltage spread. Unfortunately, it also gave a swell effect across the full range of the OFS pot, which in turn required more fixes and testing, but with the mods it all worked well with an NPN in Q1, and AB'd nicely with the 4-knob posted earlier. There is still a swell effect with full octave, so the octave switch could be eliminated. If you back off the octave, the swell disappears and you get decreasing amounts of octave with the fuzz. When the OFS is rotated close to the swell side, you get increasing swell without octave.

The next step was to redo the configuration for PNP. The same basic component values worked well for the silicon (swapping V+ & ground at Q1) so I tried a Germanium. I fully expected to have to tinker with bias resistor values, but found that was unnecessary. The silicon PNP AB's well with the 4-knob NPN build, while the germanium gives a different sound. This is a much more distinct difference than the results from the Q2 PNP germanium posted before. Anyhow, as drawn below it works well with either Germanium or Silicon with the same support component values. I was hoping to be able to switch between Si and Ge with a SPDT, using as many components for both as possible, but the leakage of the Germ plays havoc with the Si, so one has to switch out 2 legs to isolate them, necessitating a DPDT. In the end, the Germanium transistor gives a warmer sound than the Silicon, and volume levels are very close.

Why switchable? With the concern about germanium not performing well on a hot stage, I wanted the player to have the option of switching to silicon and get essentially the same sound.

This is what is on the breadboard now:

(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3145_zpsf9z11uu8.jpg) (http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3147_zpszasr7qgg.jpg) (http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3146_zpsapoyem7h.jpg)

Edit: Same inductor as before [42TL019 primary (10K side)]

Quote from: Cozybuilder on February 07, 2016, 05:11:19 PM
Why switchable? With the concern about germanium not performing well on a hot stage, I wanted the player to have the option of switching to silicon and get essentially the same sound.

Not to add any depth to that rabbit-hole, but this seems to work well for keeping Germanium transistors at a desired bias voltage under changing temperatures.

(http://www.hollis.co.uk/john/rockface.jpg)

-Rob

A small but important correction to the schematic I posted yesterday. The 22K connecting OCF lug 3 and the diodes (D5 & D7, D8) is drawn wrong, it should be in series with cap C7 and OCF lug 3. This allows enough drive from the octave phase splitter when the OCF wiper is turned towards lug 3 that you get the octave swell function. Essentially the resistance at full rotation becomes 22K, not 44K, allowing the swell with octave. The other end of rotation to swell is not affected by this change. See below:

(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3148_zpszoldvr4x.jpg)

Playing with the circuit on the breadboard again. I wasn't satisfied with the transition from Octave to Fuzz- there was always a bit of the octave in there, and my efforts with various low resistance and capacitors didn't do the job. Suddenly it occurred to me that the OFS pot was oriented wrong, so I redrew it and breaded this new one, played with some values, and wound up with something closer to what I was looking for. A 1M pot works well, but there was too little variance at the ends where you need an audio taper at each end to get a lot of tonal variety, so I tried a linear 500K which worked much better. I tried sticking a 470K resistor across the pot (1-3), which was too low, but a 1 M got me close to the audio taper at each end I was trying for, without bleed through. The schematic below needs 2 things-
  1: 1M across OFS lugs 1-3
  2: a SPST across that 1M to give an even greater pallet of tone & swell

(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3166_zpsm4jqgnaw.jpg)

Just finished the deluxe version and I love this thing!

I ended up using 2n3904 in Q1 and 3; BC547 in Q2; TL002 for the trans (had to tweak the vero layout since the 10k side is opposite to the TL018).

Really nice octave and fuzz, but that swell is just insane!

Thanks for all of the hard work you guys put into this!

I've been busy trying different things to try to improve the sustain, separation of effects, and believe this one does it. There are quite a few changes from what was posted earlier, this is much better. A couple of people have told me they prefer a minimal of controls, 2 knobs usually, but a toggle is OK too. I liked the sound of the MoonStone without the tone circuit, but then why shouldn't you be able to dial in your tone? Usually once the tone is dialed in though, I leave it alone, and think maybe others do the same. So, I thought that moving that control to the circuit board made sense- set the tone, be done with it. Can change it if you want. So here is a simple 2-knob-1-toggle pedal, with set & forget tone trimmer, with an incredible amount of versatility between the OFS pot and Octave/Swell toggle.

Schematic & pedal:
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3194_zpshmqebfoq.jpg)

(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3189_zpsymyy0dji.jpg) (http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3190_zps4eritwp2.jpg) (http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3187_zpsydqnwsmj.jpg)

final? no ofs wiper R?

you beaut!

Quote from: duck_arse on March 15, 2016, 10:09:02 AM
final? no ofs wiper R?

you beaut!

The OFS wiper R was meant to take an A pot and emulate a W pot- but the parallel resistance when the wiper was towards the Octave side introduced swell (a lot of it), and I found that its best to just get rid of that R. Now if I could only find a 1M W-Taper pot (Steve at Small Bear looked into it). This was fixed after the build- for the sharp eyed, the 270K has been isolated from the circuit by clipping the connection to diodes 5, 7, & 8.

Quote from: Cozybuilder on March 15, 2016, 11:47:53 AM
Now if I could only find a 1M W-Taper pot (Steve at Small Bear looked into it).

I don't think it will get any better than this.  :icon_mrgreen:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Potentiometer-1M-Ohm-W-Taper-Center-Click-/120669464659 (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Potentiometer-1M-Ohm-W-Taper-Center-Click-/120669464659)

Russ, I can buy some, and send them down back to you with the pedal. They're right here in Quebec. Bonus!!

Wow, these are perfect! Thanks Dino, PM sent.

Another Moonstone build, mostly the trim tone with a couple of mods to the circuit, this one in a modded Mayer Rocket enclosure. I guess its a MoonRocket now. but the acronym A.R.K. fits it well.

(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3266_zps9ngcmhve.jpg) (http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3267_zpsx6ld7zfz.jpg) (http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Wylie%20Moonrock/DSCN3268_zpsum4i5azm.jpg)

Rob!  Your taxi's arrived!

Bumping this zombie thread.  :)

I've got a Moonrock coming in for some repair work. Most of the schematics in this thread are not defunct because of PhotoBucket. Is there any way one of you guys could repost the last known good schematic? That would be awesome. Thanks.

(https://s7.postimg.org/7zhxx6alj/Wyllie_s_Moonrock.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/7zhxx6alj/)

You da man, Marcos!

Here's the trace of unit #77;


(https://s9.postimg.org/8dl8vk5sr/Moonrock_Trace_unit77_FINAL2.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/8dl8vk5sr/)

^^ Thank you!

Has anyone built one?  What does it sound like?... the multiple clipping stages look insane.

MC

Quote from: italianguy63 on April 07, 2018, 07:43:57 PM
Has anyone built one?  What does it sound like?... the multiple clipping stages look insane.

MC

I found the original to be meh. I found that it only really worked well with single coils, and playing dynamics can play a big role in what it will, or will not do.

Russ (Cozybuilder) really took it to the next level. His mods made it a much more versatile circuit, giving much more consistent tones and performance. Here's one (among many) of the Cozybuilder schematics that I have. This is for a Deluxe version;

(https://s9.postimg.org/6xix4kp9n/DELUXE_SCHEMATIC_THE_ONE.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6xix4kp9n/)

Hi folks, anyone have a schematic or any of the pics of the original Moonrock that were posted in this thread? They seem to be missing at this point, unfortunately. I've got a couple of cozybuilder's schematics saved, which is awesome (thanks for your work on those and for sharing them). But I'd love to at least have a copy of the original schematic and try out a stock one. If anyone can post a schematic or anything that might help, it would be much appreciated.

Photo below of a cozybuilder 4-knob-1-toggle moonstone build I'm still experimenting with a bit.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7G6GnYph/Moonrock.png) (https://postimg.cc/7G6GnYph)

And here's a stripboard layout I made. The other layouts posted to this thread no longer show up, and I think this one is probably quite a bit smaller (though it's also a little bit funky as far as cuts and jumpers go). I can't promise this is 100% correct at this point.


(https://i.postimg.cc/23qNLb0J/moonstone-full.png) (https://postimg.cc/23qNLb0J)

Here is a trace of an original unit, #77. Russ was kind enough to send it to me back in the day so I could check it out. Word of warning however, from all the gutshots I've seen on the net, I'm under the impression that there may have been "tweaks" done by Mr. Wyllie from unit to unit to get the best performance out of each. As such, take the schematic below for what it is; one schematic, of one unit;

(https://i.postimg.cc/D8bvjLmq/Moonrock-Trace-unit77-FINAL2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/D8bvjLmq)

A Cozybuilder version can be found over at Dead End FX. Performance-wise, of all the Cozybuilder itineration's, I find it to be the best. Here is the link;

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16lp6I7ldJCQh40XZuh5_wuFsx8Cb2DZo/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/16lp6I7ldJCQh40XZuh5_wuFsx8Cb2DZo/view)