DIYstompboxes.com

DIY Stompboxes => Building your own stompbox => Topic started by: Crowella on October 08, 2014, 10:13:51 PM

Title: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on October 08, 2014, 10:13:51 PM
I'm clearly going to put this at the top because I assume it's the part of most interest.

===========================================================

Animato Schematic.


Latest:
Last modified 10/10/2014. Not Confirmed
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7Lx-E88bAtEY1A1NG91dWRpbkU/view?usp=sharing
1.06

Previous versions:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7Lx-E88bAtES0pKbDRVWXpYTTQ/view?usp=sharing
http://i.imgur.com/4z0kWc7.png - Changed Q4 to a NTE103 to make a germanium compound pair, after some discussion on here and elsewhere.
http://i.imgur.com/lbVGPUO.png - Changed Q4 to a NTE128 after more careful observation
http://i.imgur.com/iNMxHb0.png - Original, not confirmed, will not work either (see above)

===========================================================

For the schematic, pictures and details on how I've gone about this, click below
http://imgur.com/a/zLnM9

===========================================================

Hi guys, been a long, long time since I posted here.

If you are a Muse fan boy, you may either want to pay close attention or look away in pain. :lol:

I managed to secure myself an Animato. Just going on record to say it's horrible with guitar but on bass with an LS-2, I can understand why it is sought after. :cool: Very nice sounding distortion without the need to go crazy with the knobs on it.

So after spending >$520 on it and after successfully trying it out at full volume band practice, what do I do? Start taking it apart to see what makes it tick.

To save the effort of updating this everywhere, I'll link to my imgur album and let you guys know when I update it. Hopefully I can try and explain some of the things along the way.

I'm posting here because I've hit the point where I need everyone's collective experience to help confirm/correct the schematics. I won't be building it for another week or so while I wait for parts to arrive but naturally I'm a bit curious about some things, such as the NTE102's. I also don't have complete knowledge when it comes to whether it's a derivative of some other pedals (Proco Rat?) or what not.

If you have any questions, please ask. I want to learn from this experience too so if you notice I'm goofing up, please let me know. Maybe someone can knock this up quicker than I can but it's going to be difficult to tell if it will sound identical since there aren't many of these kicking around.
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Greenmachine on October 08, 2014, 11:08:46 PM
I really enjoyed that.  Thanks for posting.  Looking forward to hearing what others think this is.
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: R.G. on October 08, 2014, 11:20:37 PM
It's a big muff variant after the first two transistors.

I don't recognize the circuit for the first two transistors (Q4 and Q5 in the schemo, I think), but it seems vaguely familiar. I'd have to do some analysis or simulate it to do more than that.

Odd booster in front of a big muff pi clipper/amplifier.
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on October 08, 2014, 11:23:43 PM
RG coming to the rescue!  ;D Thanks to both you and Greenmachine so far.  :)

I had a vague feeling that I had seen something similar to a BMP in there. That booster is indeed odd.  ???

Should also explain, I am not sure of the accuracy of Q4. I saw NTE10_, so I assumed but it could even be an NTE103.  :icon_question: I'm not going to risk taking them out to get hFE readings either.  :o

EDIT: NTE128?
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: N9 on October 09, 2014, 04:02:13 AM
Hmm, that input stage looks an awful lot like a strangely biased Compound Pair, but Q4 would need to be NPN for that...
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on October 09, 2014, 04:14:46 AM
I was discussing with another Animato owner. We've agreed its a NTE102/NTE103 pairing. That would make the PNP/NPN pairing required for it to work.
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Thecomedian on October 09, 2014, 04:15:17 AM
In response to N9, NTE128's are NPN's. The schematic is wrong if its really a NTE128. 102/103 Would also make sense.
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on October 09, 2014, 04:30:45 AM
I'm aware the schematic is wrong. Sadly ran out the door to work and realised I have a bit to edit.  :icon_mad:

My guess for the 128 is based off what I could visually see. The 103 is selected from a recommended complementary pairing.

If I can't figure it out, I can do trial and error.

EDIT: Schematic fixed to be a NTE102/NTE103 pair. I double checked the connections and they are all correct based on the board in front of me. I'll work on duplicating the board PCB's shortly.
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: digi2t on October 09, 2014, 06:32:32 AM
WOW!! This one has intrigued me in the past. Keep up the good work man!
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: SISKO on October 09, 2014, 07:46:01 AM
Great! A Muse fan here!!
Im glad to know its a BMP variant, its been a lot of mistery around this pedal.
One thing i noticed is that the schematic calls for GainA and GainB knobs, but IIRC, the animato only had 3knobs (G,V,T)

Keep it up!

-----------------------------------------------------

Edit: after seeing the photos, its a dual gang pot
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on October 09, 2014, 07:47:54 AM
Thanks guys :) It killed all the speculation about it being a Proco Rat clone. I didn't actually expect BMP either but here we are.  :icon_razz: The board PCB's are taking a while. Going to try and keep it to the original specs as much as possible for clarity sake but I'm hating the layout.  :icon_confused:

@SISKO, it's a dual gang, 100k Audio pot.  ;)
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: SISKO on October 09, 2014, 07:51:55 AM
It killed all the speculation about it being a Proco Rat clone.

Yeahh!!

@SISKO, it's a dual gang, 100k Audio pot.  ;)

Yes, i was so excited replying, that didnt see it  :P
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on October 09, 2014, 07:57:36 AM
A user by the name of Don'tPostThePear at the Muse forum boards did a sim of the bizarre first stage.

http://imgur.com/a/sgWgS

Yeah... I can understand the treble nature of this pedal.  :icon_lol:

EDIT: Uploaded a PDF with info and PCB:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7Lx-E88bAtES0pKbDRVWXpYTTQ/view?usp=sharing - Converted to PDF. Added PCB's based off existing.
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on October 09, 2014, 07:26:10 PM
I noticed an error in the PCB's where I didn't label a resistor next to R25. The unlabelled resistor should be R24.  :)

EDIT: I think when I come to breadboard the schematic, I might drop in a 2N3904/2N3906 pairing to see how it sounds. Otherwise, it's going to take too long to see whether it works and I honestly think the tone difference isn't going to be astronomical when you consider what else it has to be pumped through.
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: R.G. on October 09, 2014, 09:14:02 PM
Did some sim. The frequency response doesn't tell much. The first three transistors, switches and pots are an idiosyncratic way of introducing a variable amount of octave and (probably) some feedback to make the voicing peaky. Switch flips between different amounts and smoothnesses of octave.
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on October 09, 2014, 09:18:00 PM
Ah! After doing a bit of reading on Geofex yesterday, I thought that it was an octave effect being pushed through/affected when the switch is triggered. Thank you very much.
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: aron on October 09, 2014, 09:35:08 PM
Gotta love that Big Muff circuit!
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on October 09, 2014, 10:32:56 PM
Yep! It's a blessing that circuit. Even to this day, still can rebrand it and sell it on.  ;)

Updated the schematic and PCB PDF file to revision 1.06. Thanks for all the support and help.  ;D
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: digi2t on October 10, 2014, 12:03:47 AM
Yep! It's a blessing that circuit. Even to this day, still can rebrand it and sell it on.  ;)

Updated the schematic and PCB PDF file to revision 1.06. Thanks for all the support and help.  ;D

I'm still seeing 1.05.
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Ibanezsr500 on October 10, 2014, 02:23:09 AM
Sub'd

-Jordan.
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on October 10, 2014, 02:48:40 AM
Yep! It's a blessing that circuit. Even to this day, still can rebrand it and sell it on.  ;)

Updated the schematic and PCB PDF file to revision 1.06. Thanks for all the support and help.  ;D

I'm still seeing 1.05.
Just double check the top post again, it was 1.06 for me.
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: digi2t on October 10, 2014, 08:33:39 PM
Ah, got it. Cheers! :icon_cool:
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on October 10, 2014, 09:26:46 PM
No problems.

I also realise that I didn't account for some electrolytic caps which I indicated on the PCB. They are electrolytic in the actual circuit but I couldn't determine the polarity but it should be simple enough to figure out as they are at the start or end of stages.
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: analogguru on October 11, 2014, 05:47:52 AM
The schematic (v1.06) is wrong.  There is no connection of the collector of Q5 to C11/R20.  Instead the collector of Q5 appears to be connected to the emitter of Q4 (which would make more sense).
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on October 11, 2014, 06:19:07 AM
Hi analogguru, thanks for having a look at it.

I will take another look when I get home to confirm it. I have a picture here of the connections in that area. To the best of my knowledge, this is what it is but I can understand if it is wrong. I may have made an error with the connections to the pins
http://i.imgur.com/RgXlcK7h.jpg

My breadboarding failed and it may have been at that point indeed so you could well be right. Every stage up until there was correct voltage and settings so I'll give it another shot tomorrow.
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on October 11, 2014, 10:31:41 AM
Analogguru, you are right and I owe you many thanks! Turns out I'm going blind with age.  :icon_lol:

Sit tight, I'll edit the schematic/PCB to suit.

EDIT: Fixed. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7Lx-E88bAtEeDl6NkVUd3N5V1U/view?usp=sharing - Now 1.07, still unconfirmed but it explains my failed breadboard attempt. This is how you learn!  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: analogguru on October 11, 2014, 11:36:05 AM
....
I will take another look when I get home to confirm it.

So when you have a look at it, maybe you can check if the connection S1A/S1B/DIST_A/DIST_B is connected to ground ?  ;)
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on October 11, 2014, 11:46:34 AM
This time I took the pedal apart instead of using my own reference photos and... it is. I couldn't get the pots out and there is a small wire running underneath the distortion pots to the ground on the volume. That actually explains a lot.

I should go to bed.  :icon_redface:

Quick fix: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7Lx-E88bAtEblBSMU5GQUplOEE/view?usp=sharing
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on October 12, 2014, 12:58:05 AM
Might post for help. Can some explain, if correct, how the last stage works?

I understand Q2 but don't understand Q1 onwards. Is Q1 an emitter follower thrown into the more common final stage of the BMP stage to act as a buffer?  ???

Is the first stage also a modified Dallas Rangemaster with a Sziklai pair? It looks kind of similar and according to the tests I would imagine it behaves in such a way.
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on October 13, 2014, 07:57:16 AM
Sorry, I don't like posting multiple times in a row.

I managed to make a sim of the circuit in LTspice. I'm using 2N3904s and a 2N3906 to model it and it was my first attempt at biasing. I kept the "bypass capacitor" for the emitter of the pair but set it low. Not sure how necessary it would be with silicon transistors anyway.

The schematic for LTspice is here. I'm aware I will need to correct a few things in the schematic, mainly flip the tone pot around and make it linear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7Lx-E88bAtEUy0wdFpjQWh4WlU/view?usp=sharing

Little bit of horror when you max out the distortion. Any idea what's wrong there?  ??? (Well, sort of, that capacitor plays tricks. Is it even necessary?)
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: analogguru on October 13, 2014, 02:47:56 PM
Might post for help. Can some explain, if correct, how the last stage works?

I understand Q2 but don't understand Q1 onwards. Is Q1 an emitter follower thrown into the more common final stage of the BMP stage to act as a buffer?  ???

Yes, the purpose is to lower the output impedance.

Is the first stage also a modified Dallas Rangemaster with a Sziklai pair? It looks kind of similar and according to the tests I would imagine it behaves in such a way.
No....simply because the "Dallas Rangemaster" is not an invention by itself.

The "Dallas Rangemaster" is a standard Mullard (and others) textbook transistor amplifier circuit with different (smaller) coupling capacitors.  So the question has to be: " Is the first stage a modified amplifier circuit with a Sziklai pair ?" and then the answer is: yes

Quote from: Crowella
I managed to make a sim of the circuit in LTspice. I'm using 2N3904s and a 2N3906 to model it and it was my first attempt at biasing. I kept the "bypass capacitor" for the emitter of the pair but set it low. Not sure how necessary it would be with silicon transistors anyway.
There is no difference between  germanium and silicon transistors  concerning the bypass capacitor.  As the name says this capacitor bypasses the emitter resistor (for AC-signals) thus increaing the AC-gain of this stage.  otherwise the maximum gain would be determined by the relation of the collector to the emitter resistor.  If this capacitor is too low, then the AC-gain for low frequencies will drop.
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on October 13, 2014, 09:30:50 PM
Yes, the purpose is to lower the output impedance.
Phew. Got something right.  :icon_lol:

No....simply because the "Dallas Rangemaster" is not an invention by itself.

The "Dallas Rangemaster" is a standard Mullard (and others) textbook transistor amplifier circuit with different (smaller) coupling capacitors.  So the question has to be: " Is the first stage a modified amplifier circuit with a Sziklai pair ?" and then the answer is: yes
Learning something new here. Thank you.  :icon_biggrin:

There is no difference between  germanium and silicon transistors  concerning the bypass capacitor.  As the name says this capacitor bypasses the emitter resistor (for AC-signals) thus increaing the AC-gain of this stage.  otherwise the maximum gain would be determined by the relation of the collector to the emitter resistor.  If this capacitor is too low, then the AC-gain for low frequencies will drop.
Alright then. I've just not encountered or noticed the bypass capacitor before in circuits.

Anyway, layout confirmed. Gain for days! I can't quite nail that attacking tone with silicon transistors but the rest matches up nicely. I found the best is a BC549 but that's all I have available.
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on October 15, 2014, 02:02:00 AM
I got it up and running but the attack isn't right and there is too much bass. I didn't quite read the 22uF capacitor right so I'm going to try putting a 2.2uF in there since that *may* be what it actually is. Would I be right in assuming that reducing that value will act as a cut on bass frequencies like you mentioned analogguru and increase the attack?  ???

EDIT: I have a youtube video demonstrating it so far. Will put up the correct schematic tonight.
?

NEW SCHEMATIC, revision 1.09: CONFIRMED
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7Lx-E88bAtEUG1zSDBsSXVSUWs/view?usp=sharing
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on November 04, 2014, 06:12:36 AM
Bumping this. Got a build done and working, as well as a sound clip below. The silicon Sziklai pair is providing I think too much gain for the circuit but the main tones are able to be reproduced quite well. I'm using a 2N5087 and 2N5088 pair, with a 220k resistor instead of the 100k in the voltage divider (I just found it works nicely there, no particular reason)

https://soundcloud.com/adamcrowell1990/animato-clone-demo

I'll do an update to the schematic too, since I believe I got C9 the wrong way around in the schematic.

The added gain means when you push the distortion even more than the original it starts to really bring up the low end but makes the high attack rather peaky resulting in having to dial my amp down to stop the on board compressor from hating on the highs. I consider it a bonus.  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Animato - A tale of degooping
Post by: Crowella on November 05, 2014, 06:12:20 PM
Another bump. I've updated the schematic to fix an error with a capacitor polarity
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7Lx-E88bAtET1ViT3J2UEFpYUk/view?usp=sharing

Also made a sound demonstration with both passive bass, compared to the original as well as with an active bass, blended with an LS-2