Hi everybody!
I need help.
I built a Little Angel on veroboard, tagboard layout, V4, the version with all fixes and two switch modes. My harder circuit.
I tested it, unfortunately, without the diode (1N4148). May I have damaged something? Then I tested it again, with the diode, and the circuit sounds, but seems to me without any effect. Just a slight oscillating, maybe some variation speed turning the pots. The switch with capacitor change nothing, maybe a little the tone, and the switch with resistor take off the sound in "no resistor" position.
Some doubts about the wiring. I soldered together lugs 1 e 2 of each pot. (The Depth Pot is a 500k Linear instead a 470k Linear).
A picture:
(http://i.imgur.com/fsvhKJc.jpg)
Thanks!
What is this angel you speak off ? (best monty python voice) :icon_eek:
It is a chorus.
http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.it/2012/02/little-angel-chorus-rick-holt.html (http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.it/2012/02/little-angel-chorus-rick-holt.html).
I built Version 4.
Anyway, I fixed some mistake, I don't know how exactly, but the circuit works now.
Just a little problem now, about one of the toggle switch: the Chorus/Vibe. When I exclude the resistor I get a background noise when I play. In the other mode no noise.
It could be the PT2399? The regulator transistor, maybe?
Help... ???
Quote from: Elijah-Baley on January 01, 2015, 06:37:28 AM
[...] about one of the toggle switch: the Chorus/Vibe. When I exclude the resistor I get a background noise when I play.
What this background noise is?
When I include the resistor the noise is just a bit.
If I connect the two free lugs in the Chourus/Vibe switch the chorus effect fades away.
Thank you! ;)
First of all, you should know that despite being awesome, the Little Angel is one of the more problematic circuits out there. Even if everything is done right there is a chance it won't work. I have built a couple of these and everything was built according to the layout, all the voltages checked out, and they didn't work. So I gave up and built a small clone :P
I need some easy chorus. The effect is there, and it is nice and the mods get it more versatile.
Are there some clues about this background noise? I read could be some problem about pt2399, somebody needs try several to get the circuit works good. Could it br my case? At the moment I have just that IC.
Thanks!
Have you noticed that the link running under the PT2399 connects to pins 3 & 4 under the chip?
You could experience an "apparent" increase in noise in Vibe mode because that removes the clean/dry signal - so all you hear is the output from the delay. The noise shouldn't be so bad that it's unbearable, but there usually is some from most delay circuits, which is why most dedicated Vibe effects use phase shifters instead.
Thank you anotherjim. Yes I noticed that link. I soldered three pieces of jumpers, and in those spotlights there are the junctions of the three jumpers. First time I made, but it should be correct.
Your explanation about the "noisy effect delay" could be right, is that the reason because I suspect my PT2399 maybe is too noisy. I had read different posts and comments in the web about this background noise, in this chorus as some delay effects. (I was planing to build a Cave Dweller Delay, PT2399 based! :icon_eek:)
This noise maybe is not too much unbeareble, but watching some demos of noiseless Little Angel I thought I can get better results. This noise is rather an annoyance.
I bought my PT2399 from Tayda, Model: Princeton Technology Corp (PTC).
I can add a thing. My Crate amp has a chorus effect on board and there's a similar noise when I play with it, exactly like my circuit of the Little Angel.
Ok, PT2399 is a variable part, but in general, they either work or don't.
Looking at the layout there's some things missing I wouldn't leave out.
There's no decoupling capacitor on Pin 2 (The analog reference voltage).
There's no high frequency decoupling capacitor on the 5 volts power except back across between in and out of the regulator IC.
Note that ordinary ali electro caps do not work efficiently with the frequencies the chip operates at, and need help with an added ceramic capacitor.
If it were mine...
The 100nF cap (should be ceramic), across the regulator I and O should connect from I to G.
Another 100nF ceramic from PT2399 pin1 to pin 3 or 4.
A further 100nF ceramic from pin 2 to 3 or 4.
Wow, so many things!
But the layout is verified. ???
Ok, this is the layout:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-gCZ4gYAPEGA/UDgBDX49XiI/AAAAAAAACRQ/1WNwwJOhA5w/s1600/Little+Angel+Chorus+V4.png)
Quote from: anotherjim on January 23, 2015, 07:44:52 AM
If it were mine...
The 100nF cap (should be ceramic), across the regulator I and O should connect from I to G.
Ok, I didn't get it too much. Anyway, I followed the layout. You can see the picture above.
Quote from: anotherjim on January 23, 2015, 07:44:52 AM
Another 100nF ceramic from PT2399 pin1 to pin 3 or 4.
A further 100nF ceramic from pin 2 to 3 or 4.
This components there are not in the original layout, right? Should I add them?
I had some doubts about the kind of the caps, so just some of them are ceramic. Again, see the picture above.
Rick's design is peculiar in that it wobbles pin 2, rather than the more usual pin 6. Go check out Rick's original thread (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=86297.msg722561#msg722561) for details, but these "features" are intentional.
Indeed I had imagined it.
I think this layout is plenty studied and verified, included the V4 with the mod.
And so?
^And so?
You could pull the PT2399 - I see it's socketed - and build it on the breadboard. If it still doesn't work, then you have learnt something.
I didn't get on with the Little Angel, so eventually designed a work-a-like, which doesn't wobble the Vref pin. It works great:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=106854.msg968863;topicseen
Thank you!
I am almost sure that the problem is the natural noise of the PT2399. I'm reading the similar problem with the Cave Dweller Delay, and one solution to reduction the noise is rise up the value of the cap between pin 13 and 14. This mod could be cut off some high frequency, but limits the noise.
So... maybe I have to buy some of this chip and choice the less noisy.
At this moment I haven't enough components to try the Little Angel on my breadboard, and the schematic is pretty complicated for me.
Your chorus seems nice, and extreme :), but I prefer work on stripboard, it is easy for me.
The layout is verified in so far that it works. That doesn't mean the design is optimal. It was originally purely a chorus - noise on the delayed signal is obscured by the clean signal when mixed about 50/50. the Vibe mod is a cheap add-on, but bear in mind the circuit wasn't designed as a Vibe, but as a low part/cost chorus.
Here's how the 78L05 regulator should have the ceramic caps added (not my design). The original LA didn't have any, never mind the one fitted across the regulator in that layout.
(http://valvewizard.co.uk/equinoxIIschem.jpg)
The way I read that LA layout, the 100nF cap across regulator I & O pins is giving any high frequency noise from the power supply a fast, no waiting route into the circuitry instead of bypassing it to ground.
You can also see a 47uF cap on pin2. This is the reference voltage bypass cap. LA can't use a large value capacitor here because the LFO wave needs to drive pin 2, but I think there should be some. 100nF ceramic won't affect the LFO but will cut HF noise on the reference. If you have one, a 1uF Tantalum cap might be more effective.
As said you can clean it up by increasing some filter caps on the audio side of the chip, but too much and it will reduce the chorus effect.
Thank you, but sorry man, english and some tecnical terms put me in difficult.
You're seggustion to make (or try) some adding, right? Do you think I can use my layout with no problem?
Then I should understand exactly what kind od components, value and where I have to put them.
Thank you again! :D
Yes, I do mean add components.
To begin, you can do the regulator caps.
Remove the 100n cap between I and O pins of the 78L05.
Get a 100n ceramic cap, bend the wires in so it fits a 2 hole grid. Fit it between 78L05 I and G.
I've just noticed the layout does have a 100n between G and O at the edge of the board. If this is a ceramic, leave it there. If it's not ceramic, change it for one that is.
It's good to have a ceramic cap as close as possible to the power pins of the chip, you can fit another 100n ceramic between pin1 and pin3.
Finally, to filter the reference supply on pin2, at the left edge of the board, you can fit one more 100n cap across the strips that lead out from pins 2 and 4.
That's dealt with the power supplies, which MAY NOT completely solve the noise problem, but at least you can be sure the circuit is now reasonably immune from radio interference or of causing interference to others.
Now attack the audio filtering on the other side of the chip.
Now I suggest trying some things out first. You can use any type of capacitor for testing, but Film type caps would be preferred. But, if ceramic is all you have and it works, use it.
On the back of the board, solder a 47n cap between PT2399 pins 11 and 12. If that works, you can replace the 10n already fitted there.
Standard design value with this chip is a 100n in this position, so try 100n if 47n wasn't enough.
Finally, if all else fails, try adding 10n or 22n between pins 13 and 14. This will make the delayed sound darker, and may spoil the chorus effect. You will just have to try it. If it reduces noise for the Vibe effect, but spoils the Chorus, you can add this extra cap using an SPDT switch and call it a "Dark" switch and think of it as an added feature :)
Ok.
I have to make an order for this new components, but not much soon. I let you know my progress later.
Thank you! :D
The more I think about it, the more I believe the 100n that is shown on the layout connected between I and O of the regulator is an error. That 100n was meant to go between I and G.
I would try fixing that, using the same 100n cap if that's all you have.
Seems to me really weird this error.
The schematic is much discussed and the layout verified, and some builds it with less problem. :-\
Quote from: anotherjim on January 24, 2015, 11:22:22 AM
The more I think about it, the more I believe the 100n that is shown on the layout connected between I and O of the regulator is an error. That 100n was meant to go between I and G.
Good spot! I guess it would let noise on the power line get through to the 5V output, and on to the PT. I guess that other builders with quiet power supplies wouldn't have noticed any issue. But you definitely should have the I and O pins bypassed to ground via caps (just like Merlin has done ^^) - it's exactly what the datasheet tells you.
Ok! ;)
I have to try it!
Thank you.
Tried.
I desoldered the 100nF cap (film) through I and O of the regulator and I soldered two pin socket through I and G.
With and without the cap the background noise like a FFFFFFF when I play is always there. Not so loud, but is there. If I can eliminate is better, else I have to hold it.
It's worth remembering that the PT isn't a hi-fi part. And by all accounts, some are born less hi-fi than others. Have you tried swapping out your PT for another - preferably from a different supplier?
I am almost convinced that the problem is the noisiness of the PT2399, anymore.
I'm reading several topics in the web about this IC and eventually noises, especially in delay circuits where it is often used.
I haven't other PT2399 at the moment, and I bought this from Tayda, I could buy it from Musikding, but it is more expensive unfortunately, and I afraid of another failure. LEss expensive in another shop in my country, but is the same brand to Tayda.
I could buy one sometime a try it. But I wonder, assuming the problem is really my PT2399, if this is noisy on this circuit, probably it will be noisy in other circuit, some delay for example, right? You know, I'm plaining a easy cave dweller delay circuit.
Quote from: Elijah-Baley on January 27, 2015, 04:55:07 AM
. . . but is the same brand to Tayda.
They're all the same brand - Princeton Technology. But they do appear to have variable quality.
Thanks, I didn't know it.
Quote from: Elijah-Baley on January 27, 2015, 04:55:07 AM
[...] But I wonder, assuming the problem is really my PT2399, if this is noisy on this circuit, probably it will be noisy in other circuit, some delay for example, right? You know, I'm plaining a easy cave dweller delay circuit.
Somebody has an opinion about this?
They do have variable quality, and it seems to have changed with time. I wonder if the lowest quality chips go in the DIL packages while the good ones go in surface mount which the big volume customers are probably buying.
Quote from: anotherjim on January 27, 2015, 10:50:44 AM
They do have variable quality, and it seems to have changed with time.
Indeed, some delay circuit has noise problem with long time delay or several repeats. Just read it.
Update, finally.
I tested the circuit with further 3 PT2399. No changing, the background noise when I play remains. Tried another 78L05, and nothing.
I checked the voltage on ICs and 78L05 and are ok. Just the battery slightly diying.
And now?
PS Testing the circuit (after a long time) I noticed when the speed pot is to 0 a quick detune. On every setting of the depth.
I can't notice it anymore qhen the speed is higher, enough obviously I think.
Quote from: Elijah-Baley on January 26, 2015, 10:44:48 AM
[...]
I desoldered the 100nF cap (film) through I and O of the regulator and I soldered two pin socket through I and G.
Now it is soldered as early. Maybe a bad solder?
I'm waiting the new solder tin.
Hello guys.
I'm still stuck with my Little Angel (or devil?). Background noise in chorus mode.
I'm looking those caps on the right side of the PT2399. There is a "New Year's Edition" and those caps have different values.
I noticed that the noise rise up when the treble are high.
Could those caps filter treble or something?
I have decide if save this circuit (it at least is good as vibe) or I have throw it away.
Thank you.
Quote from: anotherjim on January 23, 2015, 11:37:19 AM
The way I read that LA layout, the 100nF cap across regulator I & O pins is giving any high frequency noise from the power supply a fast, no waiting route into the circuitry instead of bypassing it to ground.
+1 agree. That looks like a mistake to me. The should go from I to G, not O. The board will work anyway (as you've discovered) but it'd be better with the supply properly bypassed.
Tom
I really think your best starting point is to breadboard a new build of the same circuit -- that will let you eliminate your soldering work from the equation. Or it might confirm that what you're getting is as good as it gets. It will also let you experiment with the suggestions more easily -- as you desolder and resolder things over and over, you increase the risk that you're going to fry something else, etc. If you breadboard it and get a better result, you can then compare pin voltages between your soldered version and your breadboard version.
I'm in the same boat on another build...it's frustrating, but it's the nature of DIY sometimes!
Quote from: ElectricDruid on December 21, 2015, 08:35:16 AM
Quote from: anotherjim on January 23, 2015, 11:37:19 AM
The way I read that LA layout, the 100nF cap across regulator I & O pins is giving any high frequency noise from the power supply a fast, no waiting route into the circuitry instead of bypassing it to ground.
+1 agree. That looks like a mistake to me. The should go from I to G, not O. The board will work anyway (as you've discovered) but it'd be better with the supply properly bypassed.
Tom
I tried to move that cap with no changing. The layout is verified, sometime the PT2399 is the problem, but I changed 2 or 3.
It is a bit hard for me for breadboard it.
Quote from: Elijah-Baley on December 21, 2015, 03:55:08 PM
Quote from: ElectricDruid on December 21, 2015, 08:35:16 AM
Quote from: anotherjim on January 23, 2015, 11:37:19 AM
The way I read that LA layout, the 100nF cap across regulator I & O pins is giving any high frequency noise from the power supply a fast, no waiting route into the circuitry instead of bypassing it to ground.
+1 agree. That looks like a mistake to me. The should go from I to G, not O. The board will work anyway (as you've discovered) but it'd be better with the supply properly bypassed.
Tom
I tried to move that cap with no changing. The layout is verified, sometime the PT2399 is the problem, but I changed 2 or 3.
It is a bit hard for me for breadboard it.
To be honest, I wouldn't expect moving that cap to solve anything much. It looks like an error where it is, but it's not going to stop the circuit working, or fix it when moved if it doesn't.
The rest of the layout looks ok, although I'm not a fan of those bodged ground wires linking everything together. The Little Angel chorus is probably fussy because it uses the chip in a way it was never designed for, and the PT2399 isn't exactly hi-fi at the best of times. So if it makes some noise, I'm not really surprised. I'd be reluctant to suppose that meant that you'd actually made any error, even if other people might have got lucky and built circuits that make less noise than yours does.
Sorry. No magic bullet to offer.
Tom
Thank you, ElectricDruid, this is the point!
If there's any error, somewhere, I really can't found, so it could be there's no.
I know PT2399 is "noisy", indeed I tried 3 different, perhaps, but no solved.
In "Vibe Mode" it is noiseless.
Could somebody tell me why? What I bypass in VIbe Mode, and what I include in Chorus Mode that could be responsible of the noise?
This is the schematic, more or less. This is not the exactly version I built, but it has the switches.
(http://s11.postimg.org/f4n92ssj7/Modded_Angel.png)
Just another clue: I missed, in the first test, the diode. I noticed the battery was warm. Could some components be damaged or something?
what type opamp are you using? maybe check that 47uF on the V/2 line. does it still noise if you disconnect the depth pot so it doesn't modulate?
I built this:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-gCZ4gYAPEGA/UDgBDX49XiI/AAAAAAAACRQ/1WNwwJOhA5w/s1600/Little+Angel+Chorus+V4.png)
It is a bit different from the schematic, and I follow the layout, so the IC is a NE5532P.
I'm sorry, what 47uF cap you meant? Near the 78L05, the 1N4148 or the opamp?
About the depth pot what I should to do? There's the toggle switch connected, it is a bit difficult.
And I had joint Speed 1 & 2, and Depth 1 & 2. I had seen this connection in another layout and I found weird to have disconnect those lugs, so I thought was correct joint them.
Use such as TL072 or RC4558 instead of NE5532 in this one. The 5532 is an excellent hi-fi amp, but becomes very noisy with high resistor values. I wouldn't think the 5532 is the best choice for the LFO either. Perversely, even the MC1458 or LM358 would be better than the 5532 in this particular effect.
The vibrato mode is all PT2399 output, so less noise then is probably due to the filtering in the delay lines own op-amps making the hiss less noticeable.
> battery was warm.
PT399 sucks almost 100mA.
This is a LOT for a 9V battery!!
(I do not know why it is such a pig.)
The pulled-down battery voltage *may* be related to your hiss problem.
Try it with a solid 9V source.
Quote from: Elijah-Baley on December 25, 2015, 10:11:32 AM
[...]
I'm sorry, what 47uF cap you meant? Near the 78L05, the 1N4148 or the opamp?
About this?
Quote from: Elijah-Baley on December 25, 2015, 10:11:32 AM
About the depth pot what I should to do? There's the toggle switch connected, it is a bit difficult.
And about this suggestion?
Quote from: Elijah-Baley on December 25, 2015, 10:11:32 AM
And I had joint Speed 1 & 2, and Depth 1 & 2. I had seen this connection in another layout and I found weird to have disconnect those lugs, so I thought was correct joint them.
And this could be important?
It is just to have more thing to check in case I need. I am a bit pessimist about this circuit. :-[
Reading my notes I think I didn't try to replace the IC, I'll try. If what anotherjim says about the NE5532 is true, it could be help, if that is really the problem.
Thanks!
I was thinking of the bias supply for the opamp, so the 47uF connected to the 10k//10k//330k. disconnecting the depth pot was the easiest way I could see to remove the modulation from the audio, just to eliminate it from the equation.
both the depth pot and the speed pot are shown on the circuit diagram with a "N/C" (no connection) connection. so you should connect one end to the circuit, and the other end to the wiper, and then to the circuit. you onely need two wires from the board to each pot. so if you have joint 1&2, your board wires will connect to "1&2" and "3".
Quote from: anotherjim on December 25, 2015, 04:20:52 PM
Use such as TL072 or RC4558 instead of NE5532 in this one. The 5532 is an excellent hi-fi amp, but becomes very noisy with high resistor values. I wouldn't think the 5532 is the best choice for the LFO either. Perversely, even the MC1458 or LM358 would be better than the 5532 in this particular effect.
The vibrato mode is all PT2399 output, so less noise then is probably due to the filtering in the delay lines own op-amps making the hiss less noticeable.
I tried to replace my NE5532 with a RC4558 and a TL072, but no changing. So I left the NE5532 for the moment.
Now I want to insert a DC jack and use a Boss PSU.
Meanwhile...
Quote from: duck_arse on December 26, 2015, 08:54:18 AM
I was thinking of the bias supply for the opamp, so the 47uF connected to the 10k//10k//330k. disconnecting the depth pot was the easiest way I could see to remove the modulation from the audio, just to eliminate it from the equation.
both the depth pot and the speed pot are shown on the circuit diagram with a "N/C" (no connection) connection. so you should connect one end to the circuit, and the other end to the wiper, and then to the circuit. you onely need two wires from the board to each pot. so if you have joint 1&2, your board wires will connect to "1&2" and "3".
Forgive me duck_arse, my english failed :'(
Maybe i got the "technical part", but I didn't understand if in my case I have to leave connected 1&2 of the pots like I did (but the layout doesn't show) or I could try to interrupt 1&2 like
this layout seems to show.
Thanks!
Update: using the Boss PSU instead of the battery the noise is almost off, I could even finish it, but I'll try something more.
That is better now.
Update 2: ::) I change my mind. I think after a while the noise come back, the sound become dirty as early.
Sorry, I'm still testing.
Tomorrow I'll try to replace that 47uF (damaged or something?). ???
Bump :(
Still noisy. Still not change the 47uF cap, but I'm not much sure about that will remove the background noisy when I play.
Quote from: Elijah-Baley on December 24, 2015, 10:57:31 AM
In "Vibe Mode" it is noiseless.
Could somebody tell me why? What I bypass in VIbe Mode, and what I include in Chorus Mode that could be responsible of the noise?
This is the schematic, more or less. This is not the exactly version I built, but it has the switches.
(http://s11.postimg.org/f4n92ssj7/Modded_Angel.png)
One thing that occurs to me is that because of the passive mixing, there's a potential feedback path from the output of the PT2399 to the input - when the "Vibe/Chorus" switch is closed. There's a couple of 10K resistors in the path of the signal, but the input to the PT2399 has 10K too, so 30K against 10K isn't that much of a difference. If there's unexpected feedback, it might be noisier than it's supposed to be.
HTH,
Tom
Thanks! :)
So? Is there something I can modify? Or I have only to keep it like that?
The noise is not much strong, and in high speed setting I can notice it barely- I heard it in a second test, but if I hit the strings harder I can hear it very well with the sound. It is a bit annoying, because I know that is there. ::)
I dunno! It was only a thought.
If the noise disappears when it's in Vibe mode, then the noise isn't coming form the PT2399, at least, not on a single pass.
You could try putting a proper op-amp mixer in to mix the wet and dry signals. If it doesn't make any noise like that, there might be some mileage in my theory. If it still makes noise, forget I mentioned it...
HTH,
Tom
Thanks!
I'm not sure I got what you mean, but I tried some op-amp with no success.
I had power the circuit without a diode. Are there some clues could be some damaged components, like a cap? We had mentioned early a certain 47uF. Could really be?
Tested, again. ::)
Using PSU or Battery is the same. Noise is there.
With more volume I noticed the noise there is also in Vibe mode, but in this case is very subtle and low.
The 100nF caps close to 78L05 are one film and one ceramic monolithic Could be important?
The sound is good, but that noise ruins the effect. :(
I don't know what to do except build another with different components, but I even afraid could be useless.
have you posted us a sound clip of the problem?
Actually not. I could try, but I was afraid that the noise can't be heard, I cna record it with crap stuff, by old phone, or cheap mic on my ear-phone.
This noise is something weird, I can hear it just while I play. If I hit the string harder I can hear it louder. If I play softly also the noise is lower.
But... ok, I'll try to record it.
Stay tuned! ;)
PS WOW! I start this topic: December 30, 2014, 07:37:03 AM! :icon_eek:
I decided to built it again ::)
I'm making the bill of materials. I'm wondering about the 100nF caps, especially those around ther 78L05 (see the vero layout). Should I prefer poly, film or ceramic?
across the positive supplies (9V or 5V), ceramic disc or plcc, they are better at that job. all the others, pretty much whatever you like/can fit - but poly.
Thanks! :D
So I could take from here: http://www.taydaelectronics.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=100nF (http://www.taydaelectronics.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=100nF): 0.1UF 50V MULTILAYER MONOLITHIC CERAMIC CAPACITOR, and solder it one to the left side of the 78L05 (the little orange one looking the layout) and one on the right side of the 78L05 (the big red one).
It could be good?
Sorry for my excess of zeal. :)
This circuit it is a kind of nightmare.
Before you build another of these, have you considered that you may have unrealistic expectations from the circuit? It will have some noise and be a bit temperamental.
If you want a chorus - rather than a Little Angel - then there are other options, which might suit your needs/wants better.
Thanks samhay, indeed I have on my list the zombie chorus, ready to build.
But I have to admit I like the sound of this Little Angel, it adding a smooth and subtle color, with a slightly slap delay, and I like the vibe mode, too.
I was hoping to get sound it less noisy like someone else already did. How thay had did it?! :o
Well, I'll consider another building with more attention.
Anyway, I just to buy few caps, use some resistor I have, and recover switches, DC jack and pots. And some work.
I could be still in time to change my mind and to stock the components.
So... we'll see.
The PT2399-based effects do have a certain something, and if you like the slap-back aspect, then they are probably your best bet.
However, I would build another one on the breadboard first. If the noise is acceptable like that, it is unlikely to get any worse when you built it.
I think that is the best thing I can do. Breadboard.
But the schematic is a bit complicated for my skills, and I have to try and study well that. Probably I need help.
EB - yes, those caps will be fine, probably for the ones around pins 7, 8, 9, 10 (etc, ? from memory) as well. [but! I wouldn't trust tadya for those 100nF greencaps, they will be MUCH bigger than the caps in the picture, even if only 6c each.]
excessive zeal is fine in moderation. also, scrapping and scrounging for parts, same method I use. and you really shouldn't have problems breadboarding this circuit, it's really not that complex. let me know if you do, I'll draw a diylc for you.
Thank you duck_arse! :) I'll let you know.
I buy 100nF green cap when them aren't tight on the board, else I buy the grey film cap.
First time I bought green poly I didn't know how much them were big so I bought a pair of 470nF, just for try it. Huge! :icon_eek: Never used them, I still have it. ::)
When I got back into this lark about five years ago I bought a "starter compendium" of mixed poly caps. I was had - they were clearly offloading. Nothing smaller than 100nF. Amongst the monster haul I have a bunch of 4u7 (yes, 4u7) film caps the size of a small desk. :icon_rolleyes:
Quote from: bluebunny on February 26, 2016, 02:41:27 AM
Amongst the monster haul I have a bunch of 4u7 (yes, 4u7) film caps the size of a small desk. :icon_rolleyes:
[/quote
You and me both Marc....
Quote from: Elijah-Baley on February 25, 2016, 04:17:47 PM
First time I bought green poly I didn't know how much them were big so I bought a pair of 470nF, just for try it. Huge! :icon_eek: Never used them, I still have it. ::)
wire them on tagboard, or point-to-point, call it mojo. for added points - tell people they are the hard to find ones with a 20% tolerance on the mojo (most of us have to make do with 10%, sometimes as low as 5% mojo).
what are you doing to that lark, blue?
Quote from: bluebunny on February 26, 2016, 02:41:27 AM
I have a bunch of 4u7 (yes, 4u7) film caps the size of a small desk. :icon_rolleyes:
Pics? ;)
Quote from: Elijah-Baley on February 24, 2016, 12:51:21 PM
[...] indeed I have on my list the zombie chorus, ready to build.
[...]
Indeed I built it. Indeed it WORKS at first attempt. ;D
I used the tagboard layout. It has a chorus/Vibe switch, (the Vibe mode I don't like too much at slow speed, but I don't care), and a three way modes switch. Some mode are a bit noiser than other, but it's ok.
I have a chorus :), maybe not THE chorus, but it sounds nice to me.
Just an issue, I have a little tick noise. But also I have to say I have the resistor for the led on the board, but stil no connected to the led. It is a hint? Because if I touch the lug of the Rate pot the volume of the tick raise up. Something to do with ground or whatever?
Quote from: vigilante397 on February 26, 2016, 01:39:52 PM
Quote from: bluebunny on February 26, 2016, 02:41:27 AM
I have a bunch of 4u7 (yes, 4u7) film caps the size of a small desk. :icon_rolleyes:
Pics? ;)
(http://www.bouron.org.uk/marc/bigcap.JPG)
The cap is on the left. That's most of the UK on the right. So you can see it's pretty big. ;)
Quote from: Elijah-Baley on March 23, 2016, 01:17:55 PM
Quote from: Elijah-Baley on February 24, 2016, 12:51:21 PM
[...] indeed I have on my list the zombie chorus, ready to build.
[...]
Indeed I built it. Indeed it WORKS at first attempt. ;D
I used the tagboard layout. It has a chorus/Vibe switch, (the Vibe mode I don't like too much at slow speed, but I don't care), and a three way modes switch. Some mode are a bit noiser than other, but it's ok.
I have a chorus :), maybe not THE chorus, but it sounds nice to me.
Just an issue, I have a little tick noise. But also I have to say I have the resistor for the led on the board, but stil no connected to the led. It is a hint? Because if I touch the lug of the Rate pot the volume of the tick raise up. Something to do with ground or whatever?
I soldered the led. Positive from the board and its negative with the ground.
I can hear the ticking noise, especially with high volume of my amp and more than else with high rate and high depth settings. Seems to me there's no mistake on the board. Is it just like that?
Thanks!
Quote from: Elijah-Baley on March 26, 2016, 10:53:29 AM
Quote from: Elijah-Baley on March 23, 2016, 01:17:55 PM
Quote from: Elijah-Baley on February 24, 2016, 12:51:21 PM
[...] indeed I have on my list the zombie chorus, ready to build.
[...]
Indeed I built it. Indeed it WORKS at first attempt. ;D
I used the tagboard layout. It has a chorus/Vibe switch, (the Vibe mode I don't like too much at slow speed, but I don't care), and a three way modes switch. Some mode are a bit noiser than other, but it's ok.
I have a chorus :), maybe not THE chorus, but it sounds nice to me.
Just an issue, I have a little tick noise. But also I have to say I have the resistor for the led on the board, but stil no connected to the led. It is a hint? Because if I touch the lug of the Rate pot the volume of the tick raise up. Something to do with ground or whatever?
I soldered the led. Positive from the board and its negative with the ground.
I can hear the ticking noise, especially with high volume of my amp and more than else with high rate and high depth settings. Seems to me there's no mistake on the board. Is it just like that?
Thanks!
Elijah-
I built a Zombie Chorus, and to get rid of the ticking wound up using power filter caps right at the LFO, and a 47nF cap to ground between the flashing LED and the CLR- See the following schematic, especially U3 and Q2:
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/russrutledge/Zombie%20Chorus/DSCN2403_zpsly8c0zqb.jpg)
Thanks a lot, Cozybuilder! ;)
I'll give it a chance and I'll let you know.
I'm looking the schematic, but is a bit different from mine.
I built this:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TkX4gNiMrv4/US54YWBS19I/AAAAAAAAFLA/_P6LItYKcQE/s1600/Zombie+Chorus+with+Chorus-Vibe+switch+2.png)
I should be built with an anti-tick trick. I think it should be absolutely silent, but I can hear a weak tick, nothing loud, but If the volume is high, the setting extreme, and I don't play I can hear it.
Mine doesn't have the flashing led. Should I filter my normal status led anywasy with a 47nF cap? ???
About your U3, on my building it have to be IC4, a TL062.
So, I need a 100pF (a simple ceramic?) and I got it. And a 22uF tantalum? Necessarily? Unfortunately I have 10uF and 47uF electrolytic :(. Could be ok?
If I am not wrong I can solder them: one leg on the pin 8 of my IC4 TL062, and the other leg on the stripe immediately above the first one, because that should be on the ground. Try to look the route, it is a bit long, but it should be out on the ground wire. I'm gonna check with the multimeter, anyway.
Is that all ok? Seems pretty easy. :) If it will work for me. :P
Thanks.
The differences I saw between your (Mark's) layout and my schematic are:
1- Vref uses 12K to ground (mine is 15K)
2- Vibe switch (removes 10K from circuit for vibe mode- my R5)
3- CD4046 pins 14 & 16 are tied to +9V only, mine has additional power filtering at the chip (10uF electro + 100nF ceramic).
4- No 10K to depth pot at CD4046 pin 9
5- Depth & speed pot values differ
6- I use additional power filtering at LFO power (10uF electro + 100nF ceramic)
7- Different LFO chips
If you don't have a flashing LED, then the 47nF between the CLR and LED won't help
For the value of the additional filter caps, I would think either your 10uF or 47uF electro with the 100n ceramic at the LFO should be fine.
You asked about tantalum vs electro- tantalum is electrolytic. You can use any electrolytic you want here- mine was a small box build and size was a consideration.
The additional power filtering is probably the biggest contributor to reducing the ticking. Separating the Vref between the I/O and LFO was the major fix, and your layout incorporates that. Now its a refinement- the additional caps.
Thank you for found the differences between the schematics. ;)
Indeed, I thought with my layout I would not have ticking problem, but I have a bit. :(
That filter you used could be worth. I have to try, no choices.
Update: NOT solved. :(
This filter in my case have no effect on the ticking. Try the 100nf ceramic cap and a 10uF, a 47uF and a 100uF electrolytic (this one was for my X-Fuzz project).
(I confused, I used a 100pf ceramic, and then my only 100nF ceramic I have. I also have a 100nF film, but I think it will no change anything, now).
With pot at max I can hear the ticking. No much usable at this condition. With medium settings no problem, the ticking become less audible or not audible at all.
And now? What about the filter on the CD4046? Could be help me?
EB - does the tikk follow the rate pot setting, or is it in some way connected to the "other" parts being oscillated? [I have no experience at all w/ the 4046.]
one drastic measure that might work is to cut the link to IC4 (I hope that's the lfo?) supply pin8 and the ground link to pin4. then run a hook-up wire FROM pin4 to where the supply ground enters the board, and another wire FROM pin8 to where the V+ supply enters the board. an even more desperate measure would be to stick a small value resistor 47R~100R ish in the line to pin8, to work with the bypassing caps.
Thanks for the quote, duck_arse: [In your face PT2399!] ;D
So, it seems a bit drastic indeed. I don't know if I understand it all.
Where the supply ground enters the board, exactly? And where the V+ supply enters the board, exactly?
If you mean to wire that two points (pin 4 and pin8) directly to the ground stripe and the 9v stripe (or ground lug and 9v lug on the DC jack) it could really be so different?
Or I wrong all? ???
no worries, mate.
my thinking on the dractic measures is that the supply and groun to the lfo wander all over the board, and supply the audio section as well. any current the lfo draws (thump thump thump goes the lfo) will produce a voltage drop across all that wandering resistance, however small it might be, and could then find its way into the audio stream.
so, take the lfo out of the way of the audio section, by essentially "starring" your supply. run lines to and from the lfo chip that supply nothing else, and the only way to do that is to get the supply volts where they enter the board, so as close to the wires that go to your DC jax, fer inst. so not directly to the ground stripe, but as close to directly to the supply ground wire. and supply +. yes, the jack itself would be ok, but you need to cut those links on the board.
and if I'm wrong .....
Quote from: Cozybuilder on March 27, 2016, 12:15:25 PM
Separating the Vref between the I/O and LFO was the major fix, and your layout incorporates that. Now its a refinement- the additional caps.
It should be already, don't forget. But, if I would...
...to try that mod I should cut the stripe between the pin4 of the IC4 and the jumper. Pin 4 is not grounded now. About pin 8, I think I should cut the jumper, and pin 8 doesn't go to the 9v (and even the CLR. No matter, I can put it flying on the DC jack).
I could solder the wires directly on the solder side of the board. One on the pin 4 and one on the pin 8. I'm testing the circuit with the alligator clips. Pin 4's wire will go with the ground wire of the board (and the negative of the battery snap). The pin 8's wire will go with the 9v wire.
Is that good?
QuoteIs that good?
only time will tell.
I know ;). Just to see if I translated the idea into the layout. :P
I think Duck is right, the ground to the 12K of your Vref to the IO chip (U3) is shared with and in close proximity to the LFO ground. Heres one way to isolate the LFO ground:
For board hole ID, letters across, numbers up & down, starting at upper left corner:
1) Solder a jumper wire from D9 to C21 (clean ground to 12K & 10uF cap)
2) Make a trace cut under the 47K (G21)
3) Remove the jumper to U4 pin 4 (H17 - H21)
4) Connect IC4-pin4 to star ground (H21 to power jack or other star point)
The Vref was separated, but not the ground? If I touch lug 3 and 2 of the rate pot the ticking become louder. Has it sense?
I draw it.
(http://i.imgur.com/d3LWWyV.png)
Seems easy, this time, too.
Thank you, guys.
If this doesn't work... :icon_twisted:
The input of that has 10M input impedance. I don't know why this is so high - it will make the input very sensitive to noise pickup. I would change the 10M on the input to IC3 pin 3 to 1M. It won't case harm to solder a 1M across the existing 10M. But the 1n input cap will have to be increased to at least 4n7.
I noticed that 10M resistor, I checked twice and looked the schematics, but it is really 10M.
Well, I could put some socket and try some values.
Do you mean about generic noise or ticking? Or both?
Thanks for repling. :)
I wonder if the lack of the 10K resistor from IC2 pin 9 to Depth lug 2 is part of the problem? This is one of the differences between your layout and my schematic.
If you want to install that resistor, here is one way:
1) Move Depth Lug 2 from T9 to T1
2) jumper T5 to T9
3) 10K resistor R1 to R5
4) Trace cuts at P5 and Q1
Thanks for this mod, too.
Early I didn't what I had to do, now I have too much. :P
For the moment I let the 10M resistor and 1nF cap, because someone used that schematic with no ticking without change those part. I can see it later.
I want to try to cancel the ticking.
Maybe I could start with the first mod, separating the grounds. Then see the rest.
I want to say I'm testing the board with battery and out of the box. The box could help me to cancel the ticking?
I don't know however somebody gets this layout perfect and somebody gets the ticking. I can't explain this.
Your description of the ticking level increasing with touching the rate pot leads one to believe the problem is in the LFO section. 3 mods have now been suggested to help with this. I hope they work.
I draw it again with the 10k on the Depth pot.
(http://i.imgur.com/y7HiVgW.png)
Eventually, can I solder the 10k directly between the lug 2 of the pot and its wire and leave this part as the orignal layout? At least for try it quickly.
PS I notice the layout of sabrotone of the Zombie Chorus have this 10k. ???
Yes, please test first.
10k on Depth pot mod: done.
No effect on the ticking. It's hard to hear if there's some differents in the sound. For the moment I let it.
Separating gound mod: done.
No effect on the ticking. Neither with the filter (47uF and 100nF) on the pin 8 of my IC 4. :-[ I really trusted in this mod.
Maybe the LFO noise, I mean the movement of the sound, is loude nowr, but maybe I didn't notice early.
Anyway, the ticking is not louder, but rather subtle, and I can't hear if normal settings. I hear a subtle ticking just with both the pots over 7-8.
If I put it into the box the ticking could stop or get low? Or it is wish too much?
I was planning to use a water clear blue led 5mm. Indeed, I just replaced the 2.2k with a 8.2k.
Meanwhile, I take off the led soldered for testing (I'll resolder it while the wiring). It seems noiser without the led, now. ??? I hear well the modulation wowowowo, depending of the mode switch, (no vibe switch).
Anyway, I was thinking to restore the original layout. ::)
did you do the isolated V+ to pin8?
I did the mods in the new layout.
What do you mean with "isolated V+ to pin 8"? Separated from the LED?
the wire link to pin 8 at K-16 - if you snip that (it will isolate the lfo from the rest of the board), and tack a red wire onto the lower part of that link-wire, and run that to T-4 or the supply jack, you will have a clean 9V to the lfo, and the lfo currents won't appear in the rest of the 9V lines. if this helps, you could then insert an R//C filter in-line, as well.
the same applies (cut/isolate/link clean) at J-16 for the 0V line.
[edit :] not the J link.
Forgive me, my friend, maybe I don't follow your plan.
The wire link, maybe you mean from K18 (next to pin 8) to K12 (not K16), right?
I have to cut it, ok, and I have to connect pin 8 to... 9v, I assume. I don't know were exactly you say. Next to the CLR, I'll say not, because it should be cut out, now, Indeed,I guess it is useless.
I can connect a wire to the R4, the strip of the 9v or directly on the 9v D jack.
But like that is really much different?
Adding:
Now, I'm focusing on Mark Hammer deticking.
I know the tagboard's layout has that mod, but it doesn't work well in my case, (nor in someone else case).
Maybe my analisys is useless, but...
This is where Mark reference: http://www.geofex.com/PCB_layouts/Layouts/zombie.pdf (http://www.geofex.com/PCB_layouts/Layouts/zombie.pdf).
And here is the mod. http://hammer.ampage.org/files/DETICK~1.jpg (http://hammer.ampage.org/files/DETICK~1.jpg).
It show what add and where CUT.
We need to add a pair of resistor: 10k. My layout has them, if I see right. A 10k, and a 12k (instead a 10k).
We need a cut, too. But I can get it. As I said, the image of Mark Hammer show where cut, if I see right, even this time, there's a cut after the pin 5 of U3 (my IC3) and a resistor a 4.7k.
My layout has not this interruption, but this cut seems to me really weird.
Could it be important? Or I have to let it go?
Some other schematics without and with anti-tick.
http://www.pisotones.com/Zombie/MBC/Z2/ZChorus2Esquema.jpg (http://www.pisotones.com/Zombie/MBC/Z2/ZChorus2Esquema.jpg)
http://www.pisotones.com/Zombie/MBC/Z2/RevB/ZChorus2bEsquema.jpg (http://www.pisotones.com/Zombie/MBC/Z2/RevB/ZChorus2bEsquema.jpg)
the link I mean starts at K12 and goes to K18. I was thinking if you cut it AT K16, you would have a tail still connecting pin8, and you could use that to solder a new wire to. but, it would be just as easy (!) to cut a section out of that K link at K16 and K17, and then run the wire from M18 to the DC socket.
ignore my comment last post on the J link, I'm misreading the vero.
Ok.
So, I have tu cut the jumper between the pin 8 ot those two IC. A wire from M18 neew to connect directly to the 9v. We're saying it early.
I don't wanna messy it.
Done. And no changing, again. I'm wondering if this circuit reached the deticking limit, I mean if the ticking can't be take off more than how it is now.
Update:
Power the circuit with the power supply and the ticking is laouder now! :o
Sorry, Update 2:
I'm powering again the circuit with the battery, but now I discover a thing. The volume of the ticking change moving the wire or the pots. I'm connecting the battery, the grounds and the other wires with the clips. Flying mode. Maybe the dc jack pick up more external noises?
I'm wondering if I reached the max deticking, and I can't stop to wonder if grounding the box and put all inside I can cancel completely or almost the deticking.
I need an opinion about this. Had Somebody here built a deticked Zombie?
I had drilled a box for another pedal, and I tried to put the zombie circuit into it, to solder the input and output jack and grounding this box. In this way I get a bit of ticking at max or very high settings. As I got early. Just I didn't have close the box avoiding contacts of solder parts, discover wires, etc....
Probably, I can't do anything for it, and I'll drill a box for the Zombie and keep it as it is, with just a bit of ticking at higher settings, (that I think I'll never use).
I finished the Zombie Chorus. Into the box (125B) the ticking is still there, but as early, just in extreme settings, I have to keep the volume of the amp pretty high and I don't have play. In my case I never can hear tha ticking.
I heard the Sabrotone version should be better than tagboard version about the ticking problem. :P Next time.
My Chorus pedal:
:D
(http://i.imgur.com/J9Zv3PI.jpg)
Waiting for the Zombie graphic, of course.
I decided to renounce to the Little Angel. I liked it, but the Zombie is a very nice and real chorus effect. Thanks a lot to everybody!! :icon_smile: