A friend of mine would like to have a sound close to LW, like dream of milk and honey, blind man or mississipi queen. Some say the Astrotone/Sam Ash gets you close, other than that, which fuzz do you think that will give a similar sound?! thx for suggestions!!!
http://www.guitarplayer.com/artists/1013/leslie-west-decodes-his-mississippi-queen-tone/11715
Mark i did a google research before posting obviously! There's not much...obviously i read that article but as you can easily understand its totally useless to me. My need is to get close to that tone with a pedal not getting to know how he did it!
Well, an LP Jr. into two Sunn PA amps, one slaving the other....
The Earthquaker Acapulco Gold is based on the Model T. That's a guitar amp, not a PA, but it should get you in the ballpark. Smash the crap out of the front end of your amp with that.
West did (anecdotally, on Analog.man's site) use a pair of Sam Ash/Astro Fuzz pedals later on.
Not sure you'll ever get all the way there without a P90 and some mad vibrato skills.
Quote from: whoisalhedges on September 19, 2016, 12:18:46 PM
Not sure you'll ever get all the way there without a P90 and some mad vibrato skills.
There's certainly a lot to be said for the amplification, and whatever pedals were inserted. But even so, much depends on the nature of the signal one feeds those subsequent elements in the chain. There is a lot to be said for the distinctive qualities of a bridge P90 on a light, very resonant, mahogany-slab body with a mahogany set-neck. Stand close enough to a loud-enough amp - of pretty much any kind - and the body and neck will resonate in a way that yields a very vocal-like tone.
Again, which fuzz pedal do you think will get close to LW sound?! please try to stay IT and understand my need (which isn't about sunn amps on 11 or LP juniors or P90).
I'd probably try breadboarding a Fuzz Face with a tone control and see what your buddy thinks of it.
Maybe try a Big Muff tone stack, then try a RAT filter, both easy and probably get close enough.
I say Fuzz Face, because they are sensitive and dynamic enough to be almost like a tube amp.
I've always considered the Mississippi Queen sound to be more of a natural overdrive sound but with tons and tons of face melting volume. Then, slinky strings played with confidence and attitude, heavy handed with certain delicate accuracy.
Dare I say it?
A tubescreamer, set guitar and amp tone controls accordingly, turn the amp up all the way and make sure it has at least 100 watts :icon_mrgreen:
my 2c listening to mississippi queen. ;D ok a disclaimer- this is gonna need tweeking. ok...
---the first thing that hits my ears is a sort of mild gatey ness. like a tonebender but much milder or even more like an od/dist overdriving a second od/dist. the tone has a synthy gatedness that reminds me of pushing a dirt pedal too hard. not so hard it gets farty, but just before that. so first stage bass needs tweeking to slam the second stage thing just so. that being so you get that almost synthy character without the farty bassy character...
---the second thing that hits me is that the single note stuff is very middy and in your face. not flat. so something like a tube screamer might make a good first stage or possibly second stage...
conclusion, i'd try a ts into a bassy distortion pedal maybee a big muff or something similar or bm into ts : either or, pay attention to- the volume of the first pedal to drive the second juuust to the point of that synthy farty line -and also the bass content in to get the synthy without too much farty...
--these 2 pedals have way more gain than you'll need so one or the other will probably have a lowish gain setting but i'd guess you could get pretty close... big muff may be too much and a less scooped type flatish dist box may be better, and the ts might need to be second in line as overdriving a ts with a decent amount of gain/volume volume is my initial impression of this type of tone... try some different pedals with the intention of overloading a ts, tweek the ts tone cntrl and i bet you'll get close.
heres a vid of a bunch of 2 pedal stacked tones, maybee you can hear what i mean with the synthy / farty ragged edge thing, but figured there might be some inspiration in here , the ocd/ts at @ 14m in might be in the arena... or the ts/bd at 7min needs more bass but has that 'stacked' character...
right, now we have some good advice...thx guys! As I already have a couple of Faces I think I'll follow Ben suggestion first, I once put the tone control on it and get a great result. maybe I can get close with that tone control and a trimmer on the second transistor (as I always have, btw)
Those Sunn amps had 4 independent pre-amp tubes and 500k input impedance from an input level pot. All mixed to single tube followed by a master volume. You can't jumper the channels Marshall style without a Y splitter.
Some of the stuff google found suggested they suffered from severe power sag when hit with strong/continuous input. I used to own a solid state Sunn PA that had the same problem, but they were only expected to be used for vocals. A kick drum in one channel would gate everything else out!
So I guess you want something gatey, but not low input impedance. Maybe a FF after a BD? I mean one of those FF variations with a voltage sag pot - I don't know a specific scheme.
Tough one. I'm with Mark & Ben--this is not really a challenge that can be solved with a pedal. To my ear, that sound is similar to Townshend's Live at Leeds tone, or Clapton's live sound with Cream, and it is based on things like huge bass response and moving lots of air in close proximity to strings. Sure, you can get the distortion with a pedal, but the rest of the chain is of equal or greater importance.
Quote from: Ben N on September 22, 2016, 08:02:18 AM
Tough one. I'm with Mark & Ben--this is not really a challenge that can be solved with a pedal. To my ear, that sound is similar to Townshend's Live at Leeds tone, or Clapton's live sound with Cream, and it is based on things like huge bass response and moving lots of air in close proximity to strings. Sure, you can get the distortion with a pedal, but the rest of the chain is of equal or greater importance.
I tend to agree, look at this live footage, he is quite definitely plugged straight into a wall of Sunn amps and is only standing a few feet from them.
I floated this idea a while back that everything that you hear in a recording is through the lens of the recording signal path and things back then weren't very transparent sounding. I had an idea that part of the saturated sound that we hear is actually those cranked Sunn amps punishing the tiny input transformers of a Shure M67 as this picture shows Bill Hanley using to do sound at Woodstock.
(http://dingo.care2.com/pictures/petition_images/petition/409/403733-1393801739-wide.jpg)
When I originally floated the idea I didn't own one yet, I now own two M67s and two M267s and I can without a doubt confirm that they contribute to the tone of anything (particularly loud things) that you run through them. The M267s are the cornerstone of my drum sound because of the fattening from the transformers and limiter and I regularly use M67s to fatten guitar and bass, they sound really fantastic pushed a bit hard and can actually make a great fuzz pedal if you hit them hard with a loud source and no attenuator in front of them (they were designed for vocal mic levels)
(http://www.bayoucables.com/altec/projects/m67/ShureM67_Mod1_files/image002.jpg)
Not saying that you can't get all of these things with a pedal, but what I am saying is that in that footage of him in Cincinnati, he sounds like Leslie West and he's running straight into an amp. So the guitar choice, amps, sound pressure level, and recording signal path are all part of the equation. So we need to ask ourselves "How can I make a pedal that can imitate all of the most important aspects of these things without having to play a LP Jr. into a wall of Sunn amps and distorting a PA system?"
edit: added the schematic for the input stage of a Shure M67 which will easily turn into a fuzzbox
I feel that a tweaked, non-octaving, fox tone machine might get you there
I've never messed with a BSIAB pedal, but maybe one of those variations with the gain down somewhat will get you in the ballpark. Maybe, just a thought.
Quote from: wavley on September 22, 2016, 11:06:11 AM
So we need to ask ourselves "How can I make a pedal that can imitate all of the most important aspects of these things without having to play a LP Jr. into a wall of Sunn amps and distorting a PA system?"
yes, that's the main question - there are two paths, one involves a study of the original, and this is "quite" easy but may be not enough. yeah you can purchase a Sunn, a LP junior with P90, that would be the right rig, but to get the same result you have to play like him.
The other path is somehow more difficult, it starts with that particular sound in mind, which can be recreated (or you can get close to) with other devices, may be them fuzz boxes, amp emulators, digital stuff and so on. LW with a Kemper?! who knows...
Back to the question, I think a fuzz can give a similar sound, sure it must have a tailored tone section/control.
thx to thermionix and Derringer for the suggestions! think I'm gonna try fuzz face with tone, or foxx
let us know how it turns out man!
I want to hear a "never in my life" demo
Gaaaaaahhhh
if only it came with a P-90
http://fool-audio.com/Fool_Audio_Research/Junior_G-Man.html (http://fool-audio.com/Fool_Audio_Research/Junior_G-Man.html)
I have one of these Junior G-Mans- its a nice player. At that price point, you can afford to put in a different pickup.
Quote from: Renegadrian on September 19, 2016, 12:11:51 PM
...My need is to get close to that tone with a pedal not getting to know how he did it!
Ain't that always the case? :icon_rolleyes:
Pedals don't add to a player's ability, they simply add to our options. Technique trumps technology.
I think wavley post is very good.
I simmed the circuit in the post and it does not change much going from 14.6VDC to 9VDC supply. The bias resistors could be adjusted.
you can find the preamp PDF with a search schematic and parts list
Q2 and Q6 are still made
the gain control is shown after the transistors
Maybe the circuit will give you some interesting distortion without the input transformer.
I did not find the RKC8 specifications, one site had a guess of 300 ohm to 20k ohm
For fun one could build a small amp that drives a speaker in an isolation box with a microphone into the preamp circuit
Quote from: Cozybuilder on September 23, 2016, 07:50:01 PM
I have one of these Junior G-Mans- its a nice player. At that price point, you can afford to put in a different pickup.
no doubt
How's the stock p'up sound?
Stock pickup was OK, but I replaced it with a Benson Humbucker with 4-wires, and wired for single coil & humbucker options with a push-pull pot. I like this guitar, versatile, less than 6 pounds, intonation is spot on, feels good. By the way, Rob at Fool Audio is a member of this forum, and he'll treat you right.
i need another guitar like a hole in the head ... been selling off my unused from the herd actually
but that JR does have me rethinking ....
Quote from: Derringer on September 23, 2016, 05:46:17 PM
Gaaaaaahhhh
if only it came with a P-90
http://fool-audio.com/Fool_Audio_Research/Junior_G-Man.html (http://fool-audio.com/Fool_Audio_Research/Junior_G-Man.html)
There are some pretty nice humbucker-sized P-90 pickups out there. I like the Guitar Fetish AlNiCo Mean 90 a lot and they're only $34.95. I do installs for free. I not only own Fool Audio Research, I'm also a customer! ;-)
Oh, I'm basically out of Juniors. I came back to edit my post. I just realized, I have two with Bigsby-style vibratos, but I think all the Tune-O-Matic versions are either out the door or set aside for customers who haven't paid me yet.
I'll always do another run of those. They're the guitar I started the company to build (couldn't find a Junior with a hard-mounted humbucker and a Tune-O-Matic anywhere). Probably not until sometime next year, though. I really love 'em. A photo of my own attached.
-Rob
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5766/22756910364_78a7a8ab5a_h.jpg)
^ Well, sure, they're nice and light with only 2 strings on them! (lol)
Seriously, I had never heard of Fool Audio until I saw those guitars on this thread. Seems like a heck of a deal. I love Jrs and Specials, but I also love me some P-90s. At those prices, no big deal to do some swapping. I pretty much always change the electronics in a new guitar anyway. The finish looks like it isn't too thick, which is good, especially for poly.
Am I correct to assume these are made overseas? How would you describe the neck shape?
(Oh, hey, my mom lives in Bradenton too!)
Yeah what the hell, nice guitars! I want one of those Troikas, but I already have a white SG Special and I cannot justify having another guitar around :(
Quote from: thermionix on September 25, 2016, 01:30:49 AM
^ Well, sure, they're nice and light with only 2 strings on them! (lol)
Seriously, I had never heard of Fool Audio until I saw those guitars on this thread. Seems like a heck of a deal. I love Jrs and Specials, but I also love me some P-90s. At those prices, no big deal to do some swapping. I pretty much always change the electronics in a new guitar anyway. The finish looks like it isn't too thick, which is good, especially for poly.
Am I correct to assume these are made overseas? How would you describe the neck shape?
(Oh, hey, my mom lives in Bradenton too!)
Heh...I was installing a pickup in that one and thought, "It sure seems light." So I threw it on the scale. Most of them are around 6 pounds with a Tune-O-Matic or around 7 with a Bigsby. That one is a little lighter. It was from the 2015 run and it's been about the only guitar I've played since it came in.
BTW, that pickup I was putting in it is an Artec Double Black. I bought 20 of those (minimum order) a couple of years ago. I ran out a few months ago, but they were a really nice hot P.A.F. clone from their, "Classic" line. Period-correct plain enamel wire (can't make it in the States anymore 'cause the machine farts toxic smoke) and butyrate bobbins (smells bad...heh...). They wind the bridge pickup to 11.6K. Just about my favorite rock pickup with a Junior.
Yeah, I have these built by a vendor in the Shandong province of China. Owned by a couple of brothers. I originally contacted some Chinese vendors just to get mahogany blanks. I was sitting in my dentist's office a few years ago and I read this story about the Chinese clear-cutting forests to build a series of hydroelectric dams. They were talking about how a lot of it was old-growth hardwood like maple and mahogany and I'm all, "Hey, I needs to get me summa that!" That was when Gibson was in trouble for bringing in improperly documented hardwood and it was obvious that it was starting to get harder to source wood. The Chinese don't know from, "endangered" and I thought it would be a legal way to get some high-quality hardwood.
Except they also have incentive programs that subsidize shipping and make buying products that have been fabricated by Chinese labor a bargain. 'Cause they also don't have a problem with protecting their markets. So getting necks and bodies turned out to be about the same price as getting blanks. So in 2013 I ordered 40 necks and bodies from a Chinese vendor, after getting a sample that seemed really nice. Then before I was planning to reorder in 2014, another vendor contacted me and offered completed instruments for just a few dollars more than I'd paid for necks and bodies. They sent a sample and it was very nice, so I've been doing that since then. Which actually works out a lot better because the necks and bodies had to be sealed for the ocean journey and sanding the sealer off enough to finish them was nuts. A LOT of wood had to come off and sometimes I had to re-shape the roundover by the time I'd sanded through the sealer.
The neck is kind of a standard D. It's not a baseball bat like the 50's guitars, but it's not super-shallow like the ones from the 60's, either. Here's a photo of a particularly pretty one. ;-)
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7387/9862316935_7f4124f28c_h.jpg)
Quote from: chuckd666 on September 25, 2016, 02:51:39 AM
Yeah what the hell, nice guitars! I want one of those Troikas, but I already have a white SG Special and I cannot justify having another guitar around :(
The first shipment of Troikas should be in sometime in November. The prototype has been a blast. I was shooting for a kind of Tony Iommi/Pete Townshend thing, but with a middle pickup so's I could have the three-single-coils thing without it being a Fullerton-y guitar. The mini-toggles were because of my old Yamaha SSC-500, which I've always loved. It all worked out really great, IMO. I've been having a lot of fun with the prototype since it showed up.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8088/28386973336_b2e4a544b2_h.jpg)
Very cool. That neck looks like it would feel great. I like the 50's baseball bats, but can dig on something a little less, and long as it's not 60's slim. I'll be keeping an eye on your site.
BTW, those mini-toggles on the Troika are standard on/off for each pickup because I couldn't affordably use three-way On-On-On 4PDT Mini Switches, but the idea is baked into the design of the guitar for people who want to spring for 'em. The ones AllParts sell are $33 each. They're the EP-4363-010, if anyone's interested. Using three of those the guitar can be switched like Brian May's guitar. I always thought his pickups sounded a lot like P-90s, anyway. So with three switches you can get On/Off/Out-Of-Phase instead of needing a six switch setup. Which I think would be really cool.
(https://www.allparts.com/assets/images/p/EP-4363-010-w.jpg)
Quote from: chuckd666 on September 25, 2016, 02:51:39 AM
Yeah what the hell, nice guitars! I want one of those Troikas, but I already have a white SG Special and I cannot justify having another guitar around :(
Crikey, $33 a switch. Definitely a lot of control from those three though. And damn.. that neck wood is gorgeous. Nice.
Quote from: chuckd666 on September 25, 2016, 08:10:11 PM
Crikey, $33 a switch. Definitely a lot of control from those three though. And damn.. that neck wood is gorgeous. Nice.
I've gotta be honest about the neck, though. That's the prettiest neck that's been through here. I actually wish I hadn't sold it. Heh...so that's atypical. Most of them aren't figured like that. I probably shouldn't use that as an example, because it's like deceptive advertising.
Sometimes there some light figuring on the wood. Like this one had an attractive backside if you could ignore the little knot in the middle. But if you'll notice the neck on this one, that's more typical of how they look. Usually very plain.
Just to be as honest as possible about what it is I sell. I could get figured wood by spending more, but then I'd have to charge more and I never really saw the value in figured wood. I mean, it's pretty, but that's not always a positive.
I remember when I was a kid my cousin was auditioning for a band Frank O'Keefe (from the Outlaws) was trying to put together. I used to tag along and try to be useful as much as possible just to be around the bands and stuff. So my cousin had this sunburst Les Paul Standard and they're all going, "That's a real purty guitar you got there. I hope you can play as purty as that guitar!" I mean, it was good-natured(ish), but he was young (around 20, I guess...I was like 14) and it made him uncomfortable. He got a call back and took his, "The Paul" from Gibson's old Firebrand line. Much less ostentatious. Always stuck with me.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/521/20170270680_43598d05f6_h.jpg)
Totally agree. Intense flamed tops are corny to me. Especially re: PRS.
I watched a video some years ago, where a guy stated that this circuit comes close to the Leslie West sound:
http://www.redcircuits.com/Page91.htm
I made a veroboard , which was meant to be held in place by a board-mounted pot and the LED.
I don't remember exactly, but maybe I used an external pot instead of the trim pot.
It didn't sound bad, more like an overdrive than a fuzz, but it could need some more tweaking.
(http://musikding.rocks/wbb/index.php/Attachment/418775-Mountain-Fuzz-redcircuitscom-page91-gif/)
Quote from: Gus on September 24, 2016, 08:50:48 AM
I think wavley post is very good.
I simmed the circuit in the post and it does not change much going from 14.6VDC to 9VDC supply. The bias resistors could be adjusted.
you can find the preamp PDF with a search schematic and parts list
Q2 and Q6 are still made
the gain control is shown after the transistors
Maybe the circuit will give you some interesting distortion without the input transformer.
I did not find the RKC8 specifications, one site had a guess of 300 ohm to 20k ohm
For fun one could build a small amp that drives a speaker in an isolation box with a microphone into the preamp circuit
One of the mods folks do to these is to move the gain control to in between the transformer and transistors to clean it up, I didn't do that because it will never be a perfectly clean preamp and I have preamps designed for being clean, I wanted the color it adds, I did a few things to make them less noisey, but that's it. I think that pushing them hard adds a bit of pleasant distortion to drums that you don't instantly recognize as distortion that makes a nice and fat rock and roll sound.
A while back I ran across a video of a guy playing guitar straight through the shure M63 EQ and an M67 preamp and it sounded fantastic, but I can't seem to find it again.
If you wanted to get overly complex trying to nail this tone, you could do a jfet Sunn amp (the cathodyne PI might have a contribution to this, as discussed in an old thread) into a cab simulator, into the gain stage of the M67. This would give you all of the non-guitar, non-Leslie West's hands aspects of the signal path and might sound really cool. I would imagine this would be a pretty versatile and good sounding thing for more than just copping Mountain tones, I bet you could nail a lot of late 60's early 70's hard rock tones.
^The M67 pres are cheap enough. Looks like a fun thing to play with for recording, if nothing else. Hmmm...
Quote from: DougH on September 26, 2016, 11:39:21 AM
^The M67 pres are cheap enough. Looks like a fun thing to play with for recording, if nothing else. Hmmm...
The good thing is that there are sooo many of them out there that even the Gearslutz guys buying them and modifying them and HiFi guys buying them to harvest the transformers to use as step-up transformers for moving coil cartridges has only doubled the price from $30 to $60 ;D
Quote from: wavley on September 26, 2016, 12:04:19 PM
Quote from: DougH on September 26, 2016, 11:39:21 AM
^The M67 pres are cheap enough. Looks like a fun thing to play with for recording, if nothing else. Hmmm...
The good thing is that there are sooo many of them out there that even the Gearslutz guys buying them and modifying them and HiFi guys buying them to harvest the transformers to use as step-up transformers for moving coil cartridges has only doubled the price from $30 to $60 ;D
Well, I bought one last night from Ebay. $60 including shipping. This should be interesting. I'm going to record some electric guitar with it and see what it does. I'm hoping this makes a nice different color crayon to color with. There's a youtube with a guy testing one out with his voice. You can definitely hear the bandwidth restriction and distortion when he turns it up.
Quote from: DougH on September 27, 2016, 08:03:18 AM
Quote from: wavley on September 26, 2016, 12:04:19 PM
Quote from: DougH on September 26, 2016, 11:39:21 AM
^The M67 pres are cheap enough. Looks like a fun thing to play with for recording, if nothing else. Hmmm...
The good thing is that there are sooo many of them out there that even the Gearslutz guys buying them and modifying them and HiFi guys buying them to harvest the transformers to use as step-up transformers for moving coil cartridges has only doubled the price from $30 to $60 ;D
Well, I bought one last night from Ebay. $60 including shipping. This should be interesting. I'm going to record some electric guitar with it and see what it does. I'm hoping this makes a nice different color crayon to color with. There's a youtube with a guy testing one out with his voice. You can definitely hear the bandwidth restriction and distortion when he turns it up.
If you're looking for a fun limiter to use on things the M267 from the next generation of those mixers, a really nice and musical squash on drums. The amp circuit is op amp based so it's distortion is a little different, but not fundamentally so on a loud source because the input transformers saturate, and so will the output if you push it hard. I keep attenuators on the outputs on all of mine so I can push them hard without clipping the interface, the same kind of thing but a different flavor than my green Altec stuff or what folks do with API preamps.
Quote from: wavley on September 27, 2016, 09:14:27 AM
Quote from: DougH on September 27, 2016, 08:03:18 AM
Quote from: wavley on September 26, 2016, 12:04:19 PM
Quote from: DougH on September 26, 2016, 11:39:21 AM
^The M67 pres are cheap enough. Looks like a fun thing to play with for recording, if nothing else. Hmmm...
The good thing is that there are sooo many of them out there that even the Gearslutz guys buying them and modifying them and HiFi guys buying them to harvest the transformers to use as step-up transformers for moving coil cartridges has only doubled the price from $30 to $60 ;D
Well, I bought one last night from Ebay. $60 including shipping. This should be interesting. I'm going to record some electric guitar with it and see what it does. I'm hoping this makes a nice different color crayon to color with. There's a youtube with a guy testing one out with his voice. You can definitely hear the bandwidth restriction and distortion when he turns it up.
If you're looking for a fun limiter to use on things the M267 from the next generation of those mixers, a really nice and musical squash on drums. The amp circuit is op amp based so it's distortion is a little different, but not fundamentally so on a loud source because the input transformers saturate, and so will the output if you push it hard. I keep attenuators on the outputs on all of mine so I can push them hard without clipping the interface, the same kind of thing but a different flavor than my green Altec stuff or what folks do with API preamps.
Thanks! I'll keep that one in mind too.
Quote from: roseblood11 on September 26, 2016, 03:53:15 AM
I watched a video some years ago, where a guy stated that this circuit comes close to the Leslie West sound:
http://www.redcircuits.com/Page91.htm
I made a veroboard , which was meant to be held in place by a board-mounted pot and the LED.
I don't remember exactly, but maybe I used an external pot instead of the trim pot.
It didn't sound bad, more like an overdrive than a fuzz, but it could need some more tweaking.
thx for the suggestion, I made a smaller vero layout some time ago but never built it...
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Renegadrian/Fuzz-box.gif.html