Another topic about Russians. ;D This time about diodes.
I have a collection of russian diodes, and tested them compared with 1N34A, 1N914 from China and NXP 1N4148, Fairchild 1N914. Curve tracing: DCA75.
Here is the plot:
(http://diy-tubes.com/image/data/ICs/Diodes-DCA75-thumb.gif) (http://diy-tubes.com/image/data/ICs/Diodes-DCA75.gif)
What we can say:
1N34A seems to be real germanium (there are several topics about "fake 1n34a"). Measured them with DCA55 (in addition to DCA75): Vf from 0.3 to 0.4v.
D9B (Rus: Д9Б) is very close. Vf measured with DCA55 is about 0.4
D9E (Rus: Д9Е) often called a sub for 1N34A. Graph is close too. Vf measured with DCA55 is about 0.4-0.45
D9V (Rus: Д9В). Vf measured with DCA55 is about 0.5 (0.412-0.628)
D9J (Rus: Д9Ж). Vf measured with DCA55 from 0.4 to 0.5
D9K (Rus: Д9К) close to 1N34A. Vf measured with DCA55 is about 0.4 (0.320-0.450) mainly under 0.4v. Good substitute for 1N34a from this point of view.
Other Russian germanium types:
D310 (Rus Д310). Have more steep characteristic. DCA55 measures Vf about 0.220 (quite close measurements)
D312A (Rus Д312А) closer to 1n34a. DCA55 measured Vf about 0.3 (0.280-0.316)
There are other types of russian germanium diodes still available. I think I will make more tests, if it's interesting.
We can compare them with silicon types: NXP 1N4148 and fairchild 1N914. Very similar graphs. To the question if we can substitute one with another. ;)
Russian si diodes KD251A (Rus: КД251А) have more steep graph. KD522B - "Russian 1n4148" (not shown in the plot) gave the same graphics as KD251A. Both were used in Big Muffs.
In conclusion: Russian germanium diodes are 100% original. :icon_cool: Close to 1N34A, and according to many reports - usable, have their own tone.
I used the D9E's in my Aion Refractor (Klon clone), and they are simply outstanding. I tried 1N60, 1N270, and 1N34A's, and even some different germanium transistors (too leaky for anything else), but my ears kept coming back to the D9E. For lack of a better word, the clipping was just "sweeter" with the D9E's. They seemed to differentiate less between the humbucker vs. single coil question, sounding equally good with both. The real difference was at lower overdrive levels, where that "edge of break up" was very smooth. "Touch sensitivity", is that the term? Could it be that smoother curve having something to do with it? I dunno, but I like them.
Just be careful though, the line on the Russian diodes is generally the anode side, not the cathode, like we're used to. Best test before using them, unless in an opposing pair scenario where it won't matter.
Maybe do a "Japanese transistors for dummies" and "Japanese diodes for dummies" series as well. There's a plethora of details to be gleaned from those as well. For instance, nailing down all the gain letter codes (once and for all!) for the transistors. I did a write up on them, the thread is kicking around somewhere here. As for diodes, the 1S1588 is really nice for clipping. My ears appreciate them much more than the 1N4148/1N914. Maybe they have a more gentle curve too? Dunno. You're starting to give me reason to buy a DCA75... damn you! :icon_razz:
I'd expect that D9V to sound quite a bit different than anything else there. Got any sound clips?
I've seen verbal description only. This guy say they sound similar to D9E.
http://music.codydeschenes.com/?p=1615
Quote from the link:
QuoteD9V
1. Very similar to the D9E tonally, but the breakup happens a lot sooner.
2. Unlike the D9E, these will break up when you play hard, and they are much edgier.
Another picture. Added D2D, D18, D311. I will offer diodes kit if it's interesting, so everyone can test them.
(http://diy-tubes.com/image/data/ICs/Diodes-Kit-thumb.png) (http://diy-tubes.com/image/data/ICs/Diodes-Kit.png)
More diodes tests.
1N60 reissue (China), 1N270 reissue (China), 1N270 NOS (two black lines, housing similar to Russian GE diodes) compared with 1N34A, Russian D9E, D9J and si 1N914.
(http://diy-tubes.com/image/data/ICs/GE-Diodes-1N60-1N270-1.png) (http://diy-tubes.com/image/data/ICs/GE-Diodes-1N60-1N270.png)
This is perfectly timely for me. Much appreciated diy-tubes!!!
If not too much trouble? It'd be nice to see a couple more silicon types 1n400x, various colored 3mm LEDs, 2n7000 & BS170 in various positions (w/ gate-drain and gate-source connected), perhaps a few schottky's, etc.???
Thank you for your feedback and kind words. I will add more diodes soon, leds, 1n5819, uf4007, more russian diodes etc..
Quote from: digi2t on June 27, 2017, 09:48:00 AM
As for diodes, the 1S1588 is really nice for clipping.
I love those in my 808 clone. Used in some of the originals. Other neat ones to try (if you can find them) are the Panasonic MA150, and the 1S2473 as seen in some older SD-1s.
QuoteAs for diodes, the 1S1588 is really nice for clipping. My ears appreciate them much more than the 1N4148/1N914.
Interestingly comparing the 1S1588 datasheet with my 1N4148 measurements, the 1S1588 has a slightly harder knee. I remember in the past putting a small Schottky diode in series with a 1N4148 sounded better than the 1N4148 alone and it doesn't change the clip point too much. The combination chicken diode has a knee which is sharper than the 1N4148 thus pushing it towards the 1S1588 characteristic *shape* (but with a slightly higher drop).
Quote from: thermionix on November 15, 2017, 07:51:18 PM
Quote from: digi2t on June 27, 2017, 09:48:00 AM
As for diodes, the 1S1588 is really nice for clipping.
I love those in my 808 clone. Used in some of the originals. Other neat ones to try (if you can find them) are the Panasonic MA150, and the 1S2473 as seen in some older SD-1s.
Thanks for the suggestion. The MA150 is next on my list to try.
Quote from: Strother on November 16, 2017, 06:06:48 AM
The MA150 is next on my list to try.
I guess it was over a year ago, I searched everywhere on the internet I knew to look, and I only found one place in the US that had any MA150s. And they had all of two left in stock. And those two now reside in my TS9 clone. I think they're still pretty easy to find in Japan, maybe Australia. But there are a lot of fakes out there, on Ebay and such. Not fake diodes per se, but common 1N4148s etc sold as other rarer types. Look for a white band, and the slightly larger body of 70's/80's silicon signal diodes. Best if you can find them from a reputable retailer, and Panasonic brand.
For reference, from an original TS board:
(https://s7.postimg.org/4d9vd49y3/cache_17239999.jpg)
QuoteAnd they had all of two left in stock. And those two now reside in my TS9 clone.
Scotty have you got the co-ordinates?
Beam them up.
???
ya lost me.
Quoteya lost me.
I'm going to take those last two diodes using my transporter (teleporter).
Yeah, okay. You're in Oz, right? I think you can still find them down there, not sure though. Closer to the source at least.
Starting to feel bad about hijacking this thread, talking about Japanese diodes instead of Russian. I do want to try some Russians though, and especially some Ge transistors. I have diy-tubes.com bookmarked, salivating over those PIO caps. Soon, I will be placing an order.
QuoteYeah, okay. You're in Oz, right? I think you can still find them down there, not sure though. Closer to the source at least.
Yes. I was only joking anyway. I've got too much junk around here I try not to buy anything and just use what I have.
I can't find D9J (Д9Ј), only D9I (Д9И) diode in datasheets. Are you sure you didn't misspell it?
D9 series have both D9J (Russian Д9Ж) can be also spelled as D9ZH) and D9i (Russian Д9И).
Did you measure the leakage of any of the germanium diodes?
The 1N270-NOS looks more like a resistor than a diode, for example, and others have similar appearances that stray away from the typical diode junction conduction. Could this be due to leakage currents?
Best regards, Jack
Quote from: amz-fx on November 17, 2017, 07:50:50 AM
Did you measure the leakage of any of the germanium diodes?
The 1N270-NOS looks more like a resistor than a diode, for example, and others have similar appearances that stray away from the typical diode junction conduction. Could this be due to leakage currents?
Best regards, Jack
Looking at the same thing. The D9B and D9G I've tested are among the leakiest Ge didoes I've found.
If I'm not mistaken we can measure if everything is ok with ge diodes using multimeter as ohmmeter: D9J gives above 100k wich usually is ok for germanium.
Datasheet says max I(rev) or I(leak) for: D9B,V,G,D,E,J,L - 250uA, D9i - 120uA, D9K - 60uA.
1n34a datasheet says 30-500uA. 1N270 - 100uA max. BTW my diodes I've got from my HK supplier looks like DO-7 1N34a too - two black bands on enhousing... Anyway I'm sure about russians - NOS, OTK, from sealed boxes etc.
Sure Si diodes rev resistance is much more higher, but we are looking for germanium diodes, do we? ;)
PS: Please correct me if there's any mistakes, I've never thought about ge diodes leakage in this domain. Perhaps multimeter measerement method is wrong, or Peak Atlas DCA75 draws wrong graphs, please let me know how to measure it correctly. What did you mean by saying "The 1N270-NOS looks more like a resistor than a diode"? Thank you!
Hello Ivan and all,
I have what seems to be genuine NOS BKC 1N270, but most of them (20 units) read 0.236V in my meter (
Meterman 37XR).
Should they read 1.10V? (as your plot shows for NOS 1N270)
Also, they have one thick black line, not two, and have printed "BKC 1N 27 0".
Are they "well made" fakes? Are they real BKC but "modern"?
I'd like to experiment with good 1N270 but not sure if this are real NOS ones...
#
edit: now that I see my meter test diodes at 1mA, 0.236V@1mA may be OK for NOS 1N270...
I mean, in your curve plots, the NOS 1N270 reads 1.10V but at 12mA, not at 1mA, am I right? #
This are other readings with the same meter (*) :
D311: 0.17-0.18V
OA7 (Valvo): 0.23-0.24V
AA117: 0.23-0.24V
1N270 (BKC): 0.236V
SFD107 (Thomson): 0.35-0.36V
1N457: 0.62-0.63V (Si, for reference)
*
Meterman 37XR specs for diode test:
Test current: 1.0 mA (approximate)
Accuracy: ±(1.5 % rdg + 5 dgts)
Resolution: 1 mV
Open circuit volts: 3.0 dc typical
Quote from: diy-tubes on September 19, 2017, 03:19:26 PM
More diodes tests.
1N60 reissue (China), 1N270 reissue (China), 1N270 NOS (two black lines, housing similar to Russian GE diodes) compared with 1N34A, Russian D9E, D9J and si 1N914.
(http://diy-tubes.com/image/data/ICs/GE-Diodes-1N60-1N270-1.png) (http://diy-tubes.com/image/data/ICs/GE-Diodes-1N60-1N270.png)
Quote from: digi2t on June 27, 2017, 09:48:00 AM
Just be careful though, the line on the Russian diodes is generally the anode side, not the cathode, like we're used to. Best test before using them, unless in an opposing pair scenario where it won't matter.
Hey Dino.. thanks for this. I recently got a batch of D9B's. Put them in an Octavia.. and it sounded a little "off".
Checked, and indeed the banding on them is reversed!
Good catch.
MC
Ivan, one more thing.
In two of your plots, the D9V and the D9J seem to be exchanged.
Is this a mistake or just two very different readings of each so they swapped positions in the plots?
Thank you
hello? llo llo llo llo
someone around? ound ound und nd nd
Quote from: Fernando on August 29, 2018, 01:52:58 PM
hello? llo llo llo llo
someone around? ound ound und nd nd
Sorry guys for slow answers, I will try to find some time to check diodes mentioned and add more plots.
Thank you for your feedback!
Thank you very much Ivan.
I explain my doubts/questions in my post above (Reply #22 on: 18-08-2018, 07:18:58)
Best,
Fernando
Quote from: diy-tubes on August 30, 2018, 10:42:04 AM
Sorry guys for slow answers, I will try to find some time to check diodes mentioned and add more plots.
Thank you for your feedback!
Quote from: diy-tubes on July 16, 2017, 03:48:02 PM
Another picture. Added D2D, D18, D311. I will offer diodes kit if it's interesting, so everyone can test them.
(http://diy-tubes.com/image/data/ICs/Diodes-Kit-thumb.png) (http://diy-tubes.com/image/data/ICs/Diodes-Kit.png)
I was searching for D2D curves but I can't find them in the graph... :(
Good read :)
Ivan and all, here are two more readings @1mA (can't edit my post above, #22) :
D18: 0.30-0.34V@1mA (glass capsule covered in black rubbery material, white letters "Д18")
AA119: 0.33-34V@1mA * (Siemens NOS, glass, slightly green tint with light red print "AA" "119")
For my readings, I test at least 20 diodes of each type.
(*) Datasheets say 0.56V@1mA typical for AA119, but this is my reading...
Quote from: zedsnotdead on September 02, 2018, 02:57:44 PM
Quote from: diy-tubes on July 16, 2017, 03:48:02 PM
Another picture. Added D2D, D18, D311. I will offer diodes kit if it's interesting, so everyone can test them.
(http://diy-tubes.com/image/data/ICs/Diodes-Kit-thumb.png) (http://diy-tubes.com/image/data/ICs/Diodes-Kit.png)
I was searching for D2D curves but I can't find them in the graph... :(
I'm wondering if you took a dozen of the same type, the curves would be almost as varied.
Quote from: Fernando on August 18, 2018, 12:31:03 PM
Ivan, one more thing.
In two of your plots, the D9V and the D9J seem to be exchanged.
Is this a mistake or just two very different readings of each so they swapped positions in the plots?
Thank you
Yes mistakes are possible. I will check them again and add missed D2D.
Meantime another picture. 1n34a, D9E compared to D9i and D9g
(http://diyfactory.ru/forum/uploads/img-4450-c3acc390ed.gif) (http://diyfactory.ru/forum/uploads/img-4449-ff3548eeb3.gif)
PS: What about your question about 1mA tests, it seems that your measurements are ok. Please check zoomed pic from DCA75. D9E is about 0.29V at 1mA
(http://diyfactory.ru/forum/uploads/img-4452-a9bd0e7392.gif) (http://diyfactory.ru/forum/uploads/img-4451-01f142d0c4.gif)
Tested D9J and D9V again. Just to note - ge diodes have the same deviation as transistors' hFE ;D
Please check the plot. A-K - A-K2 are D9V. ;)
So the pics 0-12mA
(http://diyfactory.ru/forum/uploads/img-4454-e8727a0d49.gif) (http://diyfactory.ru/forum/uploads/img-4453-0bf47fd230.gif)
But zoomed is about 0.3mA all the diodes (from 0.28 to 0.33mA).
(http://diyfactory.ru/forum/uploads/img-4456-cf612d1244.gif) (http://diyfactory.ru/forum/uploads/img-4455-5881733de8.gif)
So I think anyway we can use all of them and just listen. It's a question of sound color. 8)
Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
thanks a lot Ivan!
When I find time, I'll build a circuit to measure diode Vf at 0.1, 1, 5 and 12 mA, so I can manually trace their curves;
I see that measuring only at 1mA tells too little about their response.
But, of course, the most important is to listen.
Also, I just bought one of your transistor testers, it will be a big help
Ivan, why the 3 D9V (Д9В) plots are so different? Specially one of them.
Older and newer units? Totally random?
Quote from: diy-tubes on September 12, 2018, 03:20:02 PM
Tested D9J and D9V again. Just to note - ge diodes have the same deviation as transistors' hFE ;D
Please check the plot. A-K - A-K2 are D9V. ;)
So the pics 0-12mA
(http://diyfactory.ru/forum/uploads/img-4454-e8727a0d49.gif) (http://diyfactory.ru/forum/uploads/img-4453-0bf47fd230.gif)
But zoomed is about 0.3mA all the diodes (from 0.28 to 0.33mA).
(http://diyfactory.ru/forum/uploads/img-4456-cf612d1244.gif) (http://diyfactory.ru/forum/uploads/img-4455-5881733de8.gif)
So I think anyway we can use all of them and just listen. It's a question of sound color. 8)
Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
All from the same package. Germanium is not "stable" I suppose. Need comment from real specialists. 8)
some more readings
I was able to read at 6mA as well as 1mA, so I have a better idea of their curve now, very interesting:
1N270 0.236V@1mA, 0.34V@6mA FAKE? - sold as BKC but suspicious reading. One thick black line (see below) - STEEP CURVE
1N270 0.265-275V@1mA, 0.58-0.62V@6mA - (ST) two black lines. - SMOOTH CURVE
1N270 0.30-32V@1mA, 0.79-1V@6mA - (Unknown brand) two black lines. - VERY SMOOTH CURVE
Д18 0.30-34V@1mA, 0.55-0.62V@6mA - (D18) - SMOOTH CURVE
Д9В 0.265-285V@1mA, 0.52-0.59V@6mA - (D9V) - SMOOTH CURVE
Д311 0.177-19V@1mA, 0.28-0.30V@6mA - (D311) - STEEP CURVE but smoother than OA7
OA7 0.23-24V@1mA, 0.33-0.34V@6mA (Valvo) - STEEP CURVE
I was very surprised of such a different readings from the 3 different types of 1N270 diodes (I tested many specimens of each type)
The type sold as "BKC" on the bay (showing a picture of a BKC bobbin and even having "BKC 1N270" printed on their body) match Ivan's plot for "1N270-Modern" (at least up to 6mA). They have one thick black line. FAKE ?
The other two 1N270 types had different Vf but with a more credible curve, both close to Ivan's plot for "1N270-NOS".
My D18, D9V and D311 specimens match Ivan's curve plots very well (up to 6mA at least).
Good stuff here. Thanks for posting.
What would be the closest to a 1N270? I think D18, but hard to say both are not on the same graphic
Ben
Is the graphic still in this post? When I come Google this, a thumbnail for the plot shows. When I open the page there isn't a plots or attachements...
Quote from: bms19 on August 12, 2021, 05:20:48 AM
What would be the closest to a 1N270? I think D18, but hard to say both are not on the same graphic
Ben
From Fernando's post
Quote
1N270 0.265-275V@1mA, 0.58-0.62V@6mA - (ST) two black lines. - SMOOTH CURVE
Д9В 0.265-285V@1mA, 0.52-0.59V@6mA - (D9V) - SMOOTH CURVE
Quote from: audiojoe on April 09, 2023, 06:03:32 PM... there isn't a plots or attachements...
I see 8 or 9 plots. Are you using a computer or a cellphone?
QuoteI see 8 or 9 plots. Are you using a computer or a cellphone?
I don't see any plots either, on a PC. Not even sure which post had them.
I vaguely remember seeing them when the thread was running.
Here's a direct link,
http://diy-tubes.com/image/data/ICs/GE-Diodes-1N60-1N270.png
There's some image links in post #34 but they are to a ._r_u website.
I see more than a dozen images in this thread.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HchW56wB/diy-tubes-com.gif) (https://postimg.cc/HchW56wB)
They are hosted on the forum at diy-tubes.com, a Russian site?
ALSO: they are posted as http, not https. Over the least few years many browsers have depreciated non-S connections all to heck. The site does not seem to support https connections.