Hey guys, l really need some advice here. I've just finished building my second ever pedal (fuzz dogs foxtone clone) but I can't seem to get any sound out of it whatsoever. This pedal is also wired True bypass but I'm not getting any sound whilst either footswich is on/off so I have a feeling it might be something up with the footswitch daughter board.. I have a basic cheap multimeter I can use but I have no idea what to check to find out the problem. So far I have tested continuity between the centre and centre-top lug on the right footswitch and nothing has seemed out of the orderinery. I have also tried to reflow several solder joints on the daughterboard and footswitch to no success. Is it possible there could be a short on the jack's themself or the daughter board or some other reason I'm getting no sound when in true bypass or otherwise. This is my second ever build so I'm pretty clueless about this stuff but surely if I'm getting no sound it should be something to do with my connection between the input jack and the footswitch or somewhere about there?
here is the schematics: http://pedalparts.co.uk/docs/UltimatumFuzz.pdf
I've attached pictures and one of the leds that is missing I was just replacing with a different colour at the time.
https://imgur.com/gallery/9Yqo2
http://imgur.com/epleGJx
is a two sided pcb??
Sent from my HTC Desire 626s using Tapatalk
Check for shorts - continuity where there shouldn't be continuity - especially to ground.
As a general rule of thumb, its always best to test your circuit without the footswitch wiring so that you know it works before you connect all the off-board hardware.
And I have to ask - why are all your resistors raised up off the board? Leaving all those leads exposed like that is just asking for trouble.
How would I check for shorts to ground, keep one probe on my ground and just touch every connection?
The reason I am puling my hair out is that there is a very limited number of connections for the true bypass to function so not even being able to get sound out of that is frustrating me. I followed the build documents provided by fuzzdogs as again I have very limited experience.
The resistors being raised was due my bad soldering skills, I've found it hard to seat components and I have very shaky hands. Obviously with future builds I will try my best to improve but the reality is that I am just not that very good.
Quote from: Yata on August 20, 2017, 03:25:09 PM
How would I check for shorts to ground, keep one probe on my ground and just touch every connection?
Exactly.
The easy way to get components to sit down and stay down is to push them all the way down and bend the leads over so they can't fall out.
Looking through your pictures, you have a lot of frayed strands on the ends of wires that are soldered to boards. It only takes one little strand to touch something it shouldn't and the circuit won't work. You should try to snip all of these strands off with some side cutters or nail clippers or something. In the future, when working with stranded wire, strip it first, twist it, then tin it with solder. That helps keep everything neat and it's easy to stick through the holes in the boards, like solid wire.
I'll try to keep that in mind with my next build. So far Ive added some extra solder to some joints and clipped some bits to try and make sure nothing is shorting. I still can't seem to find out what is wrong though. I'm getting continuity between both input and output but zero sound. I'm starting to wonder if my only option is to order another PCB next month and two 3DPT switches and just switch out the daughterboard.
Quote from: Yata on August 21, 2017, 03:48:24 PM
I'm starting to wonder if my only option is to order another PCB next month and two 3DPT switches and just switch out the daughterboard.
That sounds a bit too extreme given the data we have so far.
You get continuity plug tip to plug tip when the effect is bypassed?
And you get no continuity from either plug tip to ground?
I don't know exactly what the holes in that 3PDT switch PCB looked like before you soldered the switches in, but would it be possible to fit the switches rotated by 90 degrees? The fact that 3PDT are square makes it easy to put them the wrong way around. Obviously "upside down" isn't an issue, but 90 degrees out really screws things up.
That said, it looks like they've both got the tags that hold the top on pointing to the centre. But maybe both are wrong? Is that possible?
Just a thought.
HTH,
Tom
Quote from: Yata on August 21, 2017, 03:48:24 PM
I'll try to keep that in mind with my next build. So far Ive added some extra solder to some joints and clipped some bits to try and make sure nothing is shorting. I still can't seem to find out what is wrong though. I'm getting continuity between both input and output but zero sound. I'm starting to wonder if my only option is to order another PCB next month and two 3DPT switches and just switch out the daughterboard.
Did you check continuity between input/output and ground? And when you say zero sound, do you mean complete silence or no effect just dry signal?
Welcome Yama.
Chill out some one here will help get your fuzz working.
Diagram 5 here
Explains how the 3pole double throw switch functions.
Note the lug direction, as suggested by Electric Druid it may be something simple like this.
http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Learn_About_Guitar_Pickups_and_Electronics_and_Wiring/3PDT_Stomp_Switch_Instructions.html
If it's not the switch wiring, we'll go through debugging the circuit with you.
Mean time go look on you tube to learn how to use a multimeter.
Google is your friend.
I hope this isn't coming across harsh. It's not intended that way.
Is it boxed already?
Rich.
Hello Yata
Don't give up - the people here are very helpful at fixing things! As a fellow novice I can add something else to check for - how are you powering this? I recently had a build not work which I assumed was something complex but it turned out to just be the power socket plug had died and was no longer sending power to the circuit! That will tend to have a negative effect on sound going through it...
Have you tried running a cable from the audio of the input socket to the board (bypass the footswitches entirely) and then from the circuit to the audio out socket? If your pedal works at hat point then you know for sure the problem is in the footswitch PCB.
If you cannot hear anything with a full passive foot switch, most likely your input signal (or output) is accidentally grounded.
First double-check that you put the foot switch in the right way - in the pdf you linked page 5 I think (would be nice if the doc had page numbers).
If those are in the right way - not rotated 90 degrees - then you can set your multimeter to "beep" mode to check shorts. (If yours does not have beep, you just have to check the resistance.)
Make sure that the signal (both input and output) is never connected to ground. Touch the input jack tip connector (green cable if I am seeing it right) to a ground point (on the jack or the little daughter board with "G" or maybe even the box if the jacks are not insulated) and see the resistance. It should be open. If it beeps or you see something like 1.2 Ohm, you have a short and you have to trace the wires to find where it is.
I second the statement about those fine hair-like strands of wire, they are a massive pain in the butt, check those first if you have a short.
Cannot quite tell from your pics but also make sure that the jack connectors for the tip do not touch the case accidentally - those would ground the signal right away.
Also, there is a little too much red showing for those foot switches I think, you may want to add a bit more solder just to make sure that all tabs have good connections to the PCB - if it is not a short, it may be a no connection from signal to foot switch.
This is almost too much help guys, I can't thank everyone enough for the replies as I sit here dumbfounded.
re:granite
I think you are most likely right, with the footswitch clicked I'm getting continuity between ground and my signal on both jacks. I assume this means my signal has become grounded somewhere on the daughterboard? I've spent the last half hour trying to find out where it could possibly be grounded but to no avail. here is the kicker though, when I depress the footswitch to engage the effect I'm getting no short between the lugs on my output jack and the output of the daughterboard. But I am still getting a short between the input/ground (and on the jack lugs) and everything that touches. is it possible to maybe just have a faulty jack causing a short?
EDIT: unsoldered the jack and the input and ground on the board still seem to have continuinty
I'm going to go back over the daughterboard and everything else with my eyes and just try and see if anything could possibly be touching.
Thanks again.
You see now I can't figure out how the switching is done.
Some of those Gnd connections on the switch maybe are supposed to be.
There's going to be at least one grounded lug on each switch to make indicator leds works.
There's all sorts of things you could check before that.
Is the input jack really the output jack in the box. Don't ask. Let's just say I've been there.
Are the guitar signal wires really going to the tips and not the shield .
Is the guitar cable ok?
Etc
How's it going Yata? Did you figure out how to use the multimeter?
I've got lots more silly questions.
Rich
Quote from: Kipper4 on August 22, 2017, 02:25:56 PM
You see now I can't figure out how the switching is done.
Some of those Gnd connections on the switch maybe are supposed to be.
There's going to be at least one grounded lug on each switch to make indicator leds works.
There's all sorts of things you could check before that.
Is the input jack really the output jack in the box. Don't ask. Let's just say I've been there.
Are the guitar signal wires really going to the tips and not the shield .
Is the guitar cable ok?
Etc
How's it going Yata? Did you figure out how to use the multimeter?
I've got lots more silly questions.
Rich
Cheers for the reply.
To make things simple I have decided to completely unsolder the board from my jacks and motherboard. I am now left with only the daughterboard and switches and somehow still getting continuity between J-In and ground. I've attatched some pictures if it helps. Also the switches are orientated horizontally across just like the guide told me.
I think I linked the schematics in my first post but here is another link
http://pedalparts.co.uk/docs/UltimatumFuzz.pdf
The routing on the pcb is visable at the bottom of page7.
I believe input goes to the top centre lug of the right switch and output goes to the centre lug for true bypass. The left switch just handles switching for the octave effect.
Pictures of the pcb currently:
https://imgur.com/a/y75eD
EDIT: additional picture of the continuity I get with each switch press
http://i.imgur.com/rLyOEU7.jpg
Any chance a tiny piece of wire may have slipped in between the switch and the board?
Hmm. From your continuity diagram:
In one position, the top six lugs are all shorted together, and in the other position, the bottom 6 lugs are shorted together?
Quote from: EBK on August 22, 2017, 03:54:52 PM
Hmm. From your continuity diagram:
In one position, the top six lugs are all shorted together, and in the other position, the bottom 6 lugs are shorted together?
The bottom lugs only show continuity between the bottom and middle row whilst the top row shows contuinty with everything in the top and middle row when the footswitch is pressed.
Quote from: Yata on August 22, 2017, 04:23:12 PM
Quote from: EBK on August 22, 2017, 03:54:52 PM
Hmm. From your continuity diagram:
In one position, the top six lugs are all shorted together, and in the other position, the bottom 6 lugs are shorted together?
The bottom lugs only show continuity between the bottom and middle row whilst the top row shows contuinty with everything in the top and middle row when the footswitch is pressed.
So, if we number the lugs like this:
1 4 7
2 5 8
3 6 9
In one switch position, 1-2-4-5-7-8 are all electrically connected as one, meaning you can pick any two of those lugs at random and have continuity between them?
Quote from: EBK on August 22, 2017, 04:41:57 PM
Quote from: Yata on August 22, 2017, 04:23:12 PM
Quote from: EBK on August 22, 2017, 03:54:52 PM
Hmm. From your continuity diagram:
In one position, the top six lugs are all shorted together, and in the other position, the bottom 6 lugs are shorted together?
The bottom lugs only show continuity between the bottom and middle row whilst the top row shows contuinty with everything in the top and middle row when the footswitch is pressed.
So, if we number the lugs like this:
1 4 7
2 5 8
3 6 9
In one switch position, 1-2-4-5-7-8 are all electrically connected as one, meaning you can pick any two of those lugs at random and have continuity between them?
Exactly.
It's really confusing.
My only instinct if I have time tommorow is to try and desolder and remove the footswitch, check if anything looks afoul (user error) and if nothing looks strange possibly buy a new footswitch to try instead.
Quote from: Yata on August 22, 2017, 04:44:45 PM
My only instinct if I have time tommorow is to try and desolder and remove the footswitch, check if anything looks afoul (user error)
Sounds like a good next step. Your switch appears to be behaving as if the middle row is all shorted together.
Quote from: EBK on August 22, 2017, 04:48:58 PM
Quote from: Yata on August 22, 2017, 04:44:45 PM
My only instinct if I have time tommorow is to try and desolder and remove the footswitch, check if anything looks afoul (user error)
Sounds like a good next step. Your switch appears to be behaving as if the middle row is all shorted together.
The only other thing I can think of is if I somehow had solder flow to the other side of the pcb and short everything, or if the heat from my iron damaged the switch somehow?
Quote from: Yata on August 23, 2017, 02:40:38 AM
The only other thing I can think of is if I somehow had solder flow to the other side of the pcb and short everything, or if the heat from my iron damaged the switch somehow?
I was just going to say that the top of the foot switch board surface looks like that it is mostly ground. So if solder flowed out - that you would not see - it could ground a bunch of things.
I am afraid that your plan to remove the switch is the right one, however painful that is.
The good news is that once it is off, you can check to make sure that the switch itself is good - using the notation from above it should have continuity with 1-2, 4-5 and 7-8 in one position and with 2-3, 5-6 and 8-9 with the other.
To help get the solder off of that switch, hold the board so you are looking up at the joints and let gravity help pull the solder onto the iron. It helps (immensely) if you have some flux you can dip the iron into immediately before.
And definitely allow for cool down time between each lug. That goes for both soldering and desoldering.
Quote from: EBK on August 23, 2017, 08:06:14 AM
To help get the solder off of that switch, hold the board so you are looking up at the joints and let gravity help pull the solder onto the iron. It helps (immensely) if you have some flux you can dip the iron into immediately before.
And definitely allow for cool down time between each lug. That goes for both soldering and desoldering.
Thanks again, I will try what you suggested to remove the solder from the switch. I just hope I haven't damaged it from heat but to be fair I didn't even know that was possible, everything is a learning experience when it is a catalogue of errors. Hopefully this means i will be able to experience the sound of this pedal soon and also see if I've @#$%ed up any of the wiring on the main board (please not)
My first pedal (belton brick 3 Reverb) seemed to work first time with no problem
If it was me..... I'd desolder the board from the switch, and just test it with input and output jacks and a battery. take the switch out of the equation all together.
At least then you can interrogate the board properly without having any other possible things that could add to the mix
Quote from: bettsaj on August 23, 2017, 09:55:20 AM
If it was me..... I'd desolder the board from the switch, and just test it with input and output jacks and a battery. take the switch out of the equation all together.
At least then you can interrogate the board properly without having any other possible things that could add to the mix
Yeah once I have them seperated I'll be able to probe both the switch and the board and see what is messing up. Right now it's too confusing trying to figure out what is shorting, better to make things simpler.
Another update. I spent 5 hours with the pedal today trying to undersolder the footswitch and I've gotten nowhere. I managed to get the first layer of solder off with a desolder-pump but I just can't get the small bits that are left on each lug. Some of the solder is almost recessed into the hole and the rest just seems to not want to move. I've tried holding the iron on it for ages to try and liquify all the solder in each joint but even trying to pull the iron away to drag it or using the pump basically seems to do nothing. Holding it upside down basically makes it impossible to see the small bits of solder holding it together to try and use gravity and if I hold it over my head with my hand I can't really manouver anything well. I've also tried using soldering braid but that just doesn't seem to suck up any solder no matter how hot I get it. I have no idea what to do now, at times I just wanted to throw the daughterboard out of the window and just be done with it.
https://imgur.com/gallery/KwgCV/comment/1103802667
Don't throw it out without testing those continuities again. There is always a chance that you've accidentally fixed it (let's hope, anyway).
If you find the continuity is still bad on the switch and still want to remove it, try a good heat gun for several minutes. Might be ten minutes or more, and then try to work the switch out while keeping the gun on it. You just want to loosen up the solder at this point and not necessarily remove it. The switch might come free of the board leaving the board's remaining solder easier to clean up on its own. This will most likely trash the switch.
Good luck.
I dont think your doing to bad there by the looks of the photo.
You seem to have shifted quite a bit of solder from the lugs.
When something like this happens. I mostly ask myself what am i prepared to sacrifice.
the switches, yep more likely than the daughter board.
So before i start can I say the thought of you holding a daughter board with molten solder on it above your head fills me with dread.
You need to bear in mind that removing that much solder in one go, especially with a very fine tip,like I use, is going to take time. Since you spent 5hrs on it today I assume your time rich.
Free off each lug seperatly. melt the solder in the hole and tap the switch lugs on a suitably fire proof surface and bash the solder out of the holes with brute force and gravity as much as is reasonably practical.
Health and safety????????
PPR has a neat trick too involving a needle type of thing that you can use to gauge out the remainder of the solder, the solder doesnt stick to the needle, near huh.
Probably wear some goggles.......
I never did get on well with solder braid.
I bought 10 frigging reels by accident when I was starting out here. Gosh nearly 5yrs has passed.
I've given most of it away to other solder freaks at work.
I should have read the qauntity on the ebay sales listing. It was cheep though. So I wont cry..
Those switches can be pretty hardy sometimes.
You could desolder the ribbon at the daughter board end. Then test to see if the effect works.
with croc clips and a jack, maybe a battery.clip too.
Just go round each lug and try to free them from the edges of the pcb holes.
A bit of banter never hurts.
Smoke me another.
Quote from: Kipper4 on August 23, 2017, 06:07:29 PM
I dont think your doing to bad there by the looks of the photo.
You seem to have shifted quite a bit of solder from the lugs.
When something like this happens. I mostly ask myself what am i prepared to sacrifice.
the switches, yep more likely than the daughter board.
So before i start can I say the thought of you holding a daughter board with molten solder on it above your head fills me with dread.
You need to bear in mind that removing that much solder in one go, especially with a very fine tip,like I use, is going to take time. Since you spent 5hrs on it today I assume your time rich.
Free off each lug seperatly. melt the solder in the hole and tap the switch lugs on a suitably fire proof surface and bash the solder out of the holes with brute force and gravity as much as is reasonably practical.
Health and safety????????
PPR has a neat trick too involving a needle type of thing that you can use to gauge out the remainder of the solder, the solder doesnt stick to the needle, near huh.
Probably wear some goggles.......
I never did get on well with solder braid.
I bought 10 frigging reels by accident when I was starting out here. Gosh nearly 5yrs has passed.
I've given most of it away to other solder freaks at work.
I should have read the qauntity on the ebay sales listing. It was cheep though. So I wont cry..
Those switches can be pretty hardy sometimes.
You could desolder the ribbon at the daughter board end. Then test to see if the effect works.
with croc clips and a jack, maybe a battery.clip too.
Just go round each lug and try to free them from the edges of the pcb holes.
A bit of banter never hurts.
Smoke me another.
I didn't think about using a needle to try and mechnically seperate the solder from the edges, that will need to be my next avenue.
I'm hoping I can spend some more time tommoro on this but probably wont have more than a few hours so I can see this dragging onto the weekend.
Sometimes this feels like pulling teeth.
I'd sooner be desoldering than at the dentists.
Chill out. You will learn some stuff. The guys will all try to get it going for you.
You need to think on how your going to handle that needle. It's easy for me to say I already had several micro screw driver type of similar tooling.
Please dont burn your self holding a hot needle cause Kipper told you too.
It was PPR's idea. and I'm sticking to my story.....
It's nothing for me to spend 3 months of, time after work, designing some stuff.
I like to listen to a little music relax and enjoy the process.
I always learn something no matter how small.
It will oneday become a knowledge base, hopefully.
If my memory holds out that long.
Quote from: Kipper4 on August 23, 2017, 06:07:29 PM
So before i start can I say the thought of you holding a daughter board with molten solder on it above your head fills me with dread.
I meant looking up
at an angle. :icon_lol:
Quote from: Yata on August 23, 2017, 05:00:11 PM
I've tried holding the iron on it for ages
Most likely this will have damaged this switch making it unusable now anyway, so forget about trying to salvage it. Soldering for too long may very well be the cause of the original problem.
You might be able to salvage the PCB, though, if you can pry away the switch enough to cut the lugs off and then desolder. You might actually be able to pull the lug out of the switch and away from the PCB if the swicth is hot enough. Or of you are really good with a drill press you could drill them out (be careful not to drill the PCB hole edges).
Don't think this has all been an effort in futility - you are learning valuable lessons about soldering, desoldering, switches and PCBs. I can almost guarantee that all of us have been down the same road when we were starting out. It underlines the importance of step-by-step building and testing: don't connect/solder things together until you know that each of the things you are connecting/soldering together works on its own, and test after completing each section. So build the board and test, connect switches, jacks and wires and test that, then connect the board and test, and of course test your switches and jacks before you connect them.
Mechanical separation with a needle or small screwdriver once most of the solder is off should help.
Could also try some solder wick - although your picture shows that most of the solder is already off.
The heat gun idea is a very good one, you may be able to pry the switch off with it.
Also, don't get discouraged, we have all been there, whether with a foot switch or some non-socketed 16+ pin IC that needs to come off a pcb. It surely is a massive pain but builds character :icon_biggrin:
Heat gun may warp or bubble the pcb and detach the copper beware
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
Quote from: Kipper4 on August 23, 2017, 06:32:09 PM
Please dont burn your self holding a hot needle cause Kipper told you too.
It was PPR's idea. and I'm sticking to my story.....
(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/VgMAAOSwLN5Wh-Dw/s-l300.jpg)
get yourself a darning needle, a toothpick, and a clutch pencil (Staedtler Mars 48000, will last you a lifetime). good for painting and poking.
it was kipper's idea.
I got a set of stainless steel "dental probe" type things years ago. Stanley from WalMart, rubber handles. The two curvy ones aren't of much use. I broke the right-angle one (stupidly) prying something with it. The straight one is one of my most essential electronics tools. Solder doesn't stick to stainless, so that's necessary, don't get the carbon steel ones.
Quote from: thermionix on August 24, 2017, 04:02:28 PM
I got a set of stainless steel "dental probe" type things years ago. Stanley from WalMart, rubber handles. The two curvy ones aren't of much use. I broke the right-angle one (stupidly) prying something with it. The straight one is one of my most essential electronics tools. Solder doesn't stick to stainless, so that's necessary, don't get the carbon steel ones.
I actually have some dental tools lying about somewhere including my main one I use for dabbing. I take it I'm just trying to heat the solder and use the tool to scrape the area between the lug and the contact ring and then the solder on the lug side should attack to the hot lug instead of my cold tool (in theory)
I didn't have time to work on it today, was too tired after work but tommoro evening I'm going to jump headfirst into it and try and get this mofo off. I have two spare 3PDT's ready from amazon I had shipped next day assuming that I've damaged the first one.
Probably a good idea to order the switches.
Use the tool to try to separate the lugs from the daughter board holes scrape some more away, without damaging the board.
The thing with those switches is that the lugs are held in place with epoxy. Which doesn't always fair well with a lot of heat when it comes to holding the lugs in place.
The mechanical connections in the switch must rely on the positioning of the lugs.
If you can save the daughter board it might save you some trouble. Failing that ring the guys who sold you the kit and ask him to provide you with another daughter.
Then you can test/debug the main effect pcb.
This would have been a good idea in hindsight.
Rock it before you box it.
> It was PPR's idea. and I'm sticking to my story.....
Uh, no.
What I've suggested is, when you have a lead OUT of the hole, but still stray solder in the hole, which refuses to come out, melt it and then run a steel needle through the hole.
Hot solder may cling to PCB but won't stick to cold steel.
While I have probably picked at scraps with a sharp object, there's usually a better way.
Just kidding Paul. :):):)
Is it possible to disassemble the switch and remove it so I'm just left with the lugs? They would be a damn sight easier to remove than just the full switch
Quote from: Kipper4 on August 24, 2017, 06:18:49 PM
Failing that ring the guys who sold you the kit and ask him to provide you with another daughter.
Smile, be cheeky ask for a discount since you bought it from him in the first place.
Snip the ribbon off. Start again with the debug from the pcb first, then you know it works before doing the switching and debugging the switching. :)
Quote from: Yata on August 25, 2017, 03:46:26 AM
Is it possible to disassemble the switch and remove it so I'm just left with the lugs? They would be a damn sight easier to remove than just the full switch
Why not. Can you pry the metal parts off? You could even just cut it open with a rotary tool cutter or hacksaw.
OK new update, managed to free the switch this morning but with a bit of damage to the pcb. It appears a few of hte solder pads have come loose or half of it has came loose/broken off on one sided. I've flowed some solder into those joints and despite the messy pictures (after I cleaned it with iso -_-) nothing appears to be shorting. Input and ground are now showing no continuity finally. I should be good to solder a new switch now right (assuming Ive not damaged the joints beyond repair)
Photos before and after I put extra solder on the pads.
Before soldering in the new switch, make sure that you haven't removed the plating on the inside of the holes - which is what connects the pads on either side of the hole. If the plating is removed, the pad you solder the switch to might not be connected to anything if the trace is on the switch side of the PCB. Plus, it's really the plating that's making most of the contact with the switch terminal. Trying to flow solder to the other side through the hole basically produces a big solder bridge which might show connectivity but is not reliable in the long run especially since you will be stepping on it. It could easily crack. If the plating is gone, bridge the holes with a piece of component lead or two, and make sure it has good contact with the trace connected pad.
EDIT: Keep in mind that it's possible there are traces connected to both pads/sides.
Im finally giving up on this project :(
It has just cost me too much time and money at a time when I'm skint, far more than if I had just bought a pedal someone else made. I desoldered everything, tested for continuinty and didn't have a single problem, new switch is fine as well. soldering everything in the daughterboard up and hey presto, my input is bloody grounded again. I really don't think there is anything I can do at this point. This makes literally zero sense to my and I can't see how this thing is getting grounded unless the daughterboard is just faulty.... but the daughterboard wasnt showing grounding untill I soldered everything up. But again, there is literally only 4 wires to the jacks I have soldered and I can see right now there aint any shorts, there is ACRES of space between them, also no solder between any of the lug joints.
I just hope anyone else thinking about purchasing one of these fuzz dog kits with a daughterboard thinks twice. I wish they just offered this kit with wired footswitches.
Thanks for all the help guys.
You can give up, but please don't throw it out. Revisit it after a month or so, or after building a few more pedals. You never know when a "eureka!" moment may strike. :icon_wink:
The only way I can possibly see myself having any luck is if fuzzdogs send me another daughterboard but I aint holding out hope. I refuse to give them any more money as I can't possible see what user error I could have made here. We are talking a tiny daughterboard with a small number of components and everything is just going to ground.
Quote from: Yata on August 26, 2017, 01:37:21 PM
I just hope anyone else thinking about purchasing one of these fuzz dog kits with a daughterboard thinks twice. I wish they just offered this kit with wired footswitches.
Whatever the merits of a footswitch daughterboard, don't give up. The daughterboard isn't mandatory: you can just wire up the footswitch directly.
I decided to try and come back to this after leaving the soldering iron for over a week. I built an audio probe but I am not sure how to use it to find out what is wrong. Most of the circuit that I'#ve probed including the tone and sustain pots are giving me the sound of my guitar including the clipping diodes. The volume pot and output have no sound at all and Q4 is the last transistor I have sound from. Everything past Q4 I've attatched my findings for:
Q4 1 no sound
2 sound
3 no sound
C12 + sound
- sound
C13 + no sound
- no sound
R21 one side sound
R24 no sound
R22 sound on one side
R23 no sound
Is there any other components near the output that I could test? I'm not sure what to make of these findings as I don't really know how to read every part of a schematic like this. I've attactched the pictures from the instructions of the schematic and PCB
(https://s26.postimg.org/g8vb8et45/PCBSschem.png) (https://postimg.org/image/g8vb8et45/)
Quote from: Yata on September 03, 2017, 09:12:27 AM
I decided to try and come back to this after leaving the soldering iron for over a week. I built an audio probe but I am not sure how to use it to find out what is wrong. Most of the circuit that I'#ve probed including the tone and sustain pots are giving me the sound of my guitar including the clipping diodes. The volume pot and output have no sound at all and Q4 is the last transistor I have sound from. Everything past Q4 I've attatched my findings for:
Q41 no sound
2 sound
3 no sound
C12+ sound
- sound
C13+ no sound
- no sound
R21 one side sound
R24 no sound
R22 sound on one side
R23 no sound
Is there any other components near the output that I could test? I'm not sure what to make of these findings as I don't really know how to read every part of a schematic like this. I've attactched the pictures from the instructions of the schematic and PCB
(https://s26.postimg.org/g8vb8et45/PCBSschem.png) (https://postimg.org/image/g8vb8et45/)
Where are 1, 2 and 3 in Q4? The schem doesn't show these numbers, neither the board.
Wherever they are, there is something wrong around Q4. Maybe it's damaged (conducting forever), maybe someting wrong with the resistors. Are you testing them With the daughter board connected?
--
Scarlett Johansson uses a Burst Box with her Telecaster.
Quote from: Hatredman on September 03, 2017, 09:46:39 AM
Quote from: Yata on September 03, 2017, 09:12:27 AM
I decided to try and come back to this after leaving the soldering iron for over a week. I built an audio probe but I am not sure how to use it to find out what is wrong. Most of the circuit that I'#ve probed including the tone and sustain pots are giving me the sound of my guitar including the clipping diodes. The volume pot and output have no sound at all and Q4 is the last transistor I have sound from. Everything past Q4 I've attatched my findings for:
Q41 no sound
2 sound
3 no sound
C12+ sound
- sound
C13+ no sound
- no sound
R21 one side sound
R24 no sound
R22 sound on one side
R23 no sound
Is there any other components near the output that I could test? I'm not sure what to make of these findings as I don't really know how to read every part of a schematic like this. I've attactched the pictures from the instructions of the schematic and PCB
(https://s26.postimg.org/g8vb8et45/PCBSschem.png) (https://postimg.org/image/g8vb8et45/)
Where are 1, 2 and 3 in Q4? The schem doesn't show these numbers, neither the board.
Wherever they are, there is something wrong around Q4. Maybe it's damaged (conducting forever), maybe someting wrong with the resistors. Are you testing them With the daughter board connected?
--
Scarlett Johansson uses a Burst Box with her Telecaster.
No I've rewired the entire project through one 3PDT footswitch and chucked the daughterboard entirelty. I am getting sound with true bypass just nothing through the circuit.
The 1-2-3 that I put are literally the 1st and 2nd and 3rd pin of the transistor/socket. 1st being the topmost pin when its alligned in the socket (the pcb has the shape of the tranny so you cant orientate it wrong).
I''ve tried switching it with the other trannies in my build which are all identical and they all perform the same. Middle pin has sound (connected to R22 top side) and none of the others have sound.
This is good progress! As suggested already, something is wrong around or with Q4. You've already tried other transistors, now make sure they have the right pinout and aren't inverted. Also check continuity between ground and Vin and Q4 collector and emitter (pins 1 and 3 probably). Also measure the DC voltages at all 3 Q4 pins.
Quote from: GGBB on September 03, 2017, 12:04:24 PM
This is good progress! As suggested already, something is wrong around or with Q4. You've already tried other transistors, now make sure they have the right pinout and aren't inverted. Also check continuity between ground and Vin and Q4 collector and emitter (pins 1 and 3 probably). Also measure the DC voltages at all 3 Q4 pins.
I've measured what I can here:
Vin and ground are showing NO continuity
pins 1 and 2 on Q4 are showing continuity with ground
Q4 1 0.00 (connects to r23 in the schematic so pin 3 in the schematic)
2 0.08
3 9.18 (this connects to R24 in the schematic so I think its the top pin in the schematic)
R22 and R23 are showing ground continuity as well
R21 and R 24 are not showing any continuity with ground
C12 is show continuity and C 13 showing on one side (negative)
The input to the board isn't grounded but the output from the board is, so it must be happening near the end of the circuit. For the octabve switch there is a break in the circuit labled 1/2 on the board. 1 Isn't grounded but 2 is. I've triple checked the board and I cant see ANY contacts touching. I really have no idea how this is grounding.
It is never something obviously visible, otherwise we'd fix it right away. If you can post large clear sharp pictures of the solder side of the board we might be able to spot something. Also make sure those exposed components leads aren't touching something they shouldn't. But the measurements don't lie - pins 1 and 2 as you call them - emitter and base - are shorted to ground - thus the lack of signal beyond C12. I would carefully remove R22 and R23 and see if they are still shorted, and check that those resistors are okay.
Also - the negative side of C13 should not connect to ground - so something around the volume pot is wrong. This may be shorting the output to ground as well.
Quote from: GGBB on September 04, 2017, 12:20:58 PM
It is never something obviously visible, otherwise we'd fix it right away. If you can post large clear sharp pictures of the solder side of the board we might be able to spot something. Also make sure those exposed components leads aren't touching something they shouldn't. But the measurements don't lie - pins 1 and 2 as you call them - emitter and base - are shorted to ground - thus the lack of signal beyond C12. I would carefully remove R22 and R23 and see if they are still shorted, and check that those resistors are okay.
Also - the negative side of C13 should not connect to ground - so something around the volume pot is wrong. This may be shorting the output to ground as well.
Weird thing, I am still getting sound through the middle pin of Q4 which is attatched to C12 but no sound from C12 itself, the top of r22 goes to the middle pin of Q4 as well so I assume thats where the sound is coming from?. I'll try to remove those two resistors and take some photos when I get a chance, same with the volume pot.
I'm still sort of confused about these circuits but is it the understanding that these bottom resistors on the schematic stop the guitar signal from being grounded and so there is a chance something around these resistors is causing the grounding?
Quote from: Yata on September 04, 2017, 01:11:48 PM
Weird thing, I am still getting sound through the middle pin of Q4 which is attatched to C12 but no sound from C12 itself, the top of r22 goes to the middle pin of Q4 as well so I assume thats where the sound is coming from?.
That makes no logical sense. The point where C12 and Q4 base (middle) join is electrically a single point, so it cannot have sound and no sound at the same time. Unless the two are not actually joined. Bad solder? Hairline crack it the trace?
Quote from: Yata on September 04, 2017, 01:11:48 PM
I'm still sort of confused about these circuits but is it the understanding that these bottom resistors on the schematic stop the guitar signal from being grounded and so there is a chance something around these resistors is causing the grounding?
I suppose you could say they do that, although that is not the intended function. That statement sort of implies that somehow the signal will ground itself unless preventative measures are taken, which isn't the case. A signal will only be grounded if it is deliberately (or accidentally) connected to ground. (Of course that's a very simplified way to look at it because the signal only exists relative to a reference point which is usually ground.) The intended function of R21 and R22 is to set the DC voltage at the base of Q4. The intended function of R23 and R24 is the set the DC voltage bias of the transistor as well as the gain. All four ensure that the transistor works properly.
It seems I'm getting nowhere fast lol. after leaving it a few says then unsoldering R22 and R23, I am not longer getting ground on both sides (Im guessing this is obvious) but it seems im getting ground continuity in a whole load of places I didnt realise before. I'm now getting ground on all of my Pot lugs and also lug 1 of my mini board mounted switch.
Its def something on the board itself as when the 3PDT is pressed true bypass it working fine and nothing is grounded. Also the no1 wire from my board that connects to no2 and bypasses hte octave effect is showing no ground but no2 is showing ground.
I'm just confused as hell here. I basically have no idea what I'm doing here to try and find out why Im getting no sound, I wonder if its best to just give up on this and try a new kit next month for a different pedal. My local guitar shop has a cheap chinese clone of this in stock, it might not be as high a quality but it will do I'd imagine. My reverb kit seemed to go without a single hitch (worked perfect first time) and I'm not sure the vast amount of time I'm spending trying to diagnose this is actually getting anywhere.
Pictures: http://imgur.com/a/2D2Zu
That's not a solder bridge at the top of the "U", is it?
Lots of dull-looking ball-shaped solder joints....
Are you heating the pads on the board, and applying solder to the joint itself and not the iron? It's looking like you may be burning off your flux before the joint is made or not heating the pad along with the wire/component leads. Just guesses since im not standing over your shoulder while you solder.
So I decided to come back to this a month later once I had a new PCB in my hand, pulled a few caps and bought some fresh components and soldered them all in. I deliberatly left out hte daughterboard and jacks and just wired the DC in and the mainboard. Problem is, before I even plug it all in, I'm getting continuity with ground, EVERYWHERE. I think there are maybe a handfull of points on the board that aren't getting some sort of continuity with ground. I've tried my best with the solder joints, no obvious bridges I can see (I slid peices of card in between every solder joint to make sure) and I just can't figure out what is wrong. Could I have damaged a capacitor removing them from my old board? can a damaged capacitor cause the entire board to go to ground?
I've also tried removing the diodes/trannies and middle pot, it makes zero difference
It seems like terrible luck this has happened twice but the reverb pedal I built worked first time. So my question is, what have I done wrong and what could cause this level up buggery on the pcb.
https://imgur.com/a/cz4mz
Let's get a few things out of the way:
What kind of meter are you using and what setting do you have it on?
You are measuring without power being connected, right?
As far as damaging components by soldering/desoldering, I think it is definitely a possibility. What kind of soldering iron are you using? Are you by chance using a lead-free solder? If not, then dullness of those joints suggests a soldering problem that we need to address.
By the way, don't use the rivets on the pots as an electrical connection point.
Quote from: EBK on September 23, 2017, 08:10:06 AM
Let's get a few things out of the way:
What kind of meter are you using and what setting do you have it on?
You are measuring without power being connected, right?
As far as damaging components by soldering/desoldering, I think it is definitely a possibility. What kind of soldering iron are you using? Are you by chance using a lead-free solder? If not, then dullness of those joints suggests a soldering problem that we need to address.
By the way, don't use the rivets on the pots as an electrical connection point.
Just a normal cheapo multimetre on the continuity setting. I'll attatch a photo.
https://imgur.com/a/Lcf8G
I've already cut the wires to that middle pot and I still have problems.
You are also correct in that I havent wired up any power or jacks yet because I wanted to check for contuinity as you can see earlier in the thread the problems I've had with the last one I built.
It is also lead-free solder, I can't get ahold of other stuff and I'm not too comfortable having lead around in a household with pets and small children. Would a cold solder joint result in my entire pedal grounding and no sound though? like afaik surely a cold joint would just stop current from passing a certain point right?
Quote from: Yata on September 23, 2017, 08:47:44 AM
It is also lead-free solder, I can't get ahold of other stuff and I'm not too comfortable having lead around in a household with pets and small children. Would a cold solder joint result in my entire pedal grounding and no sound though? like afaik surely a cold joint would just stop current from passing a certain point right?
I mostly asked about this because I was worried you may have been overheating things by taking too long to make connections with an underpowered iron (so, a cold joint problem indirectly, if that makes sense). Now that we have a reasonable excuse for dull-looking joints (the normal appearance of a lead-free joint), I can stop being distracted by that. :icon_wink:
You are using a diode check mode on your meter, not a continuity mode. The displaying is showing what the meter estimates is the forward voltage drop across the diode it assumes it is measuring.
(Actually, looking at the numbers on the display, I have no idea what it is showing....)
If it beeps, it is just to tell you that your "diode" is conducting.
Try your lowest resistance measuring setting instead.
Quote from: EBK on September 23, 2017, 09:13:51 AM
You are using a diode check mode on your meter, not a continuity mode. The displaying is showing what the meter estimates is the forward voltage drop across the diode it assumes it is measuring.
(Actually, looking at the numbers on the display, I have no idea what it is showing....)
Depending on how it does this, it could be the equivalent a continuity test or not....
Try your lowest resistance measuring setting instead.
I apologise for my assumption but it was only after posting several times on the DIY pedal section on reddit for help, people kept telling me to use a continuity setting and I didn't know what it was (they kept talking about a beeping noise). Eventually after posting pictures everybody assured me that it was the setting in the previous pictures. If this is a wrong assumption it could throw everything out.
One thing that does happen though, is that when I use what I thought was the continuity mode it normally starts with a really low number (002/004 ect.) then climbs higher.
There is also no speaker on the multimeter 100%, no sounds, nothing like that.
I geniunely feel lost here, I never had a single problem like this with my reverb pedal. I know my soldering skills are not great but can they really be that bad that the entire pedal is unusable. I've done a few mods to pedals I own in the past and also never had problems like this.
The lowest section on my ohm's is 200, what would I go about testing here and what information would be usefull to you? Am I looking for a certain number range ? I feel like I'm back at square one but I'm willing to test every component if it helps.
Continuity is an on-off thing - you either have it or you don't. It is zero resistance (in practice very close to zero). Not all meters have a continuity setting, and some that do have it as part of the diode setting or the resistance setting. On one of my meters, all three are the same setting with a momentary button to cycle through each function.
If you don't have a continuity setting, just measure resistance on the lowest range and watch for zero.
Quote from: Yata on September 23, 2017, 09:26:41 AM
I geniunely feel lost here, I never had a single problem like this with my reverb pedal. I know my soldering skills are not great but can they really be that bad that the entire pedal is unusable. I've done a few mods to pedals I own in the past and also never had problems like this.
If it helps, I no longer think it is a soldering problem. The lead-free question cleared that up for me.
Quote from: GGBB on September 23, 2017, 09:32:33 AM
Continuity is an on-off thing - you either have it or you don't. It is zero resistance (in practice very close to zero). Not all meters have a continuity setting, and some that do have it as part of the diode setting or the resistance setting. On one of my meters, all three are the same setting with a momentary button to cycle through each function.
If you don't have a continuity setting, just measure resistance on the lowest range and watch for zero.
I don't have more time today unfortunately because I'm going to my first rehersal in a decade (was hoping to have this pedal ready lol)
But tommoro I am going to take the value on my MM at EVERY point in the circuit and write them all down. Hopefully that can give me a better picture on what is going wrong..
set yr meter on the 200R range, and hold the two meter probe tips together. what does it read, 000, or some very low number? that is zero ohms, a dead short, on your meter. anything you probe that shows a number greater than your zero reading is not a short.
I think all the readings you've done on the diode setting look reasonable. again, you can short together the meter leads while in "diode test" range, see what that reading is - that would be the number indicating a dead short diode, or transistor. other numbers as you've presented are "some number of millivolts", indicating "some component more resisting than a short circuit is between my probes".
> telling me to use a continuity setting
Continuity is for trailer-light mechanics, for quick beep-tests.
On many meters, anything over 50 Ohms is silent, anything under 50 Ohms is BEEP. The 50 ohms is arbitrary. In trailer-lights, it kinda rough-sorts the bad connections from the good connections.
Is also maybe handy for quick-checking electronics, BUT in electronics we DO have important readings both below and above 50 Ohms.
> starts with a really low number (002/004 ect.) then climbs higher.
That's why we electronics techs (including you) want the numbers, not the beep. Big capacitors DO act like low-Ohm short at first, then charge-up to a near-infinite Open. If you have the capacitors soldered, at many points on the board you expect the Ohms number to start low and then go high. If you have resistors onboard, it won't go any higher than some resistor. Some insight, or allowance for not-knowing, still helps you sort the good, bad, and maybe readings.
Thanks again for hte replies guys, Ive not had time all week to work on this due to work apart from today. I took some various readings but the numbers I got in return just seem to confuse me more. I think my multi-metre might actually be junk now as nothing seems to make sense. When I test it shorted, as in both tips touching it starts at 00.0 then climbs slowly 0.1 at a time. Given the readings and buggery with my MM I assume its totally not safe to wire everything up to the Dc jacks and test it again. Can anybody think of any more measurements I can take to get me further? The readings I tested were all on components I thought from the circuit obviously looked connected to ground.
Quote
All values read from the OHM 200 setting on multimetre
9v Dc to ground on PCB = starts at 0 then climbs up (when measures on the 200k setting shows different values from 1 to 2.5, seems to keep climbing)
D7 to ground + side 11 - side 40 // Across: starts at 30 then climbs up past 200 before going blank
C11 to ground : side closest to pcb starts at 0 then climbs higher -side furthest away: starts at 40 then climbs higher resistance across: starts at 0 then climbs
C2 to ground : side closest to pcb starts at 0 then climbs higher- side furthest away: starts at 40 then climbs higher resistance across: starts at 0 then climbs
R5 to ground : side on pcb edge, starts at 0 climbs higher slowly- side furthest away: starts at 100 then climbs past a detectable setting
C8 to ground : side closest to pcb starts at 0 then climbs higher - side furthest away: starts at 0 then climbs higher resistance across: starts at 0 then climbs but cant seem to find hte point it stops
Yesterday was payday so my plan is to buy a new multimeter from Maplins with proper continuity testing mode and go to town on this baby. Hopefully it reveals something.
Quote from: Yata on September 30, 2017, 07:00:13 AM
Yesterday was payday so my plan is to buy a new multimeter from Maplins with proper continuity testing mode and go to town on this baby. Hopefully it reveals something.
I'd recommend learning to do more with the meter you presently have. You can measure continuity just fine in resistance mode with yours. Besides, if you are certain your power supply isn't shorting out, you might be better served measuring some voltages....
That's the problem, im not sure if it's going to short or not because I can't interperate the readings from my multimeter
Quote from: Yata on September 30, 2017, 07:43:31 AM
That's the problem, im not sure if it's going to short or not because I can't interperate the readings from my multimeter
This is a problem that a new meter won't fix, so let's slow down and address this.
First, let's slowly walk through the steps of determining whether your power supply would short out. (Some basic resistance measuring)
I'll post this first, and re-edit it step by step, in case you're reading along... :icon_smile:
First, you need to know thar you have a manual range meter. What that means is for measuring things like resistance, you will have to look at the reading on the display to determine whether the setting is correct or whether you need to turn the dial to a different range to get a proper reading.
1. Start on your lowest resistance setting, which is one click clockwise from that diode setting. In your case, that is the 200-ohm setting, which is for measuring resistance values from 0 to 200 ohms.
2. Without the probes touching anything, your display should show something that isn't a number. Probably something like "E" or "OL". This is your out-of-range indication, which means that the resistance between the probe tips is something greater than 200 ohms.
3. Now touch the probe tips together. The display will read "0", or at least something darn close. Because you are in the lowest range setting, you can interpret this as 0 ohms, the equivalent of measuring the resistance of two points directly connected by a wire. If, however, you were in a higher range setting (like 200k, for example), this "0" would be another out-of-range indicator, meaning it is too low to measure in the present setting, and you would need to select a lower range to take the measurement properly.
4. Now, if all is well with your power connection to your board, we would expect a resistance value between the positive voltage supply and ground connection points to be pretty high, something definitely above your 200-ohm lowest meter range. Always measure resistance without power connected to your circuit under test. If you go ahead and measure those two power supply points on your board, your meter display should hopefully stay the same, indicating out-of-range. Don't worry if it temporarily changes at the moment you first touch the probes yo the board. We are looking for the settled, steady-state reading.
5. At this point, set your circuit board aside and grab several different resistors from your parts bin, if you have some available, and practice measuring. This practice will help tune your meter interpretation skills.
(I taught Sophomore- and Junior-level circuits lab classes in grad school, by the way, so I've walked dozens (hundreds?) of people through this before. :icon_cool:)
By the way, let's follow Paul's advice and completely forget about the concept "continuity" for the moment. All you really need to know about that is "checking for continuity" is a rather imprecise way of saying that you are measuring resistance and seeing if it is relatively low.
Ok, I'm done editing this post. :icon_wink:
Quote from: EBK on September 30, 2017, 07:55:12 AM
Quote from: Yata on September 30, 2017, 07:43:31 AM
That's the problem, im not sure if it's going to short or not because I can't interperate the readings from my multimeter
This is a problem that a new meter won't fix, so let's slow down and address this.
First, let's slowly walk through the steps of determining whether your power supply would short out. (Some basic resistance measuring)
I'll post this first, and re-edit it step by step, in case you're reading along... :icon_smile:
First, you need to know thar you have a manual range meter. What that means is for measuring things like resistance, you will have to look at the reading on the display to determine whether the setting is correct or whether you need to turn the dial to a different range to get a proper reading.
1. Start on your lowest resistance setting, which is one click clockwise from that diode setting. In your case, that is the 200-ohm setting, which is for measuring resistance values from 0 to 200 ohms.
2. Without the probes touching anything, your display should show something that isn't a number. Probably something like "E" or "OL". This is your out-of-range indication, which means that the resistance between the probe tips is something greater than 200 ohms.
3. Now touch the probe tips together. The display will read "0", or at least something darn close. Because you are in the lowest range setting, you can interpret this as 0 ohms, the equivalent of measuring the resistance of two points directly connected by a wire. If, however, you were in a higher range setting (like 200k, for example), this "0" would be another out-of-range indicator, meaning it is too low to measure in the present setting, and you would need to select a lower range to take the measurement properly.
4. Now, if all is well with your power connection to your board, we would expect a resistance value between the positive voltage supply and ground connection points to be pretty high, something definitely above your 200-ohm lowest meter range. Always measure resistance without power connected to your circuit under test. If you go ahead and measure those two power supply points on your board, your meter display should hopefully stay the same, indicating out-of-range. Don't worry if it temporarily changes at the moment you first touch the probes yo the board. We are looking for the settled, steady-state reading.
5. At this point, set your circuit board aside and grab several different resistors from your parts bin, if you have some available, and practice measuring. This practice will help tune your meter interpretation skills.
(I taught Sophomore- and Junior-level circuits lab classes in grad school, by the way, so I've walked dozens (hundreds?) of people through this before. :icon_cool:)
By the way, let's follow Paul's advice and completely forget about the concept "continuity" for the moment. All you really need to know about that is "checking for continuity" is a rather imprecise way of saying that you are measuring resistance and seeing if it is relatively low.
The problem is, when I was touching the two leads together I wasn't getting 0, I was getting a really low to zero number that climbed up eventually to a way higher number as if it was a capacitor, I just couldnt figure out what i was seeing as almost every test I did the numbers changed wildy.
I've went out and bought a replacement MM with a contiunity tester and immediately I've noticed it doesn't have this problem,I know you suggested not to do that but it was driving me up the wall. The new MM beeps when there is contiunity and shows a proper value for resistance, so I've taken some measuremeants to see what was right and wrong from the last MM. (remember hte last Mm was showing the same number as the two probes touched together on several components with ground.)
After retesting I have the following:
Vin and Ground = No contiunity (great, I can think about wiring it up now I reckon)
Input and ground = No continuity (the last Mm was showing continuity)
Output and ground = Continuity (damn)]
2nd and 3rd leg on the volume pot and ground = Continuity
Other pots inc 1st leg of volume =No Continuity with ground
Output 1 and 2 (for hte octave footswitch) and ground = no Continuity
C14 and ground = anode //NC cathode//Continuity
D7 and ground = anode//Continuity cathode //NC
Q 4 transistor = Bottom two pins = Continuity top pin = nc
Q1 and Q2 = NC
Q3 = left pin -Continuity, other two pins - NC
IDK if any of this information is usefull to you, but on my last board it was around Q4 that I lost my sound right before the volume pot.
Also these are all measurements without the diodes anmd trannies socketed, but I have also tried different transistors and diodes on the last PCB incase it was a transistor failure (it wasn't)
I can see by your new meter purchase and your use of the word "continuity" 13 additional times that you're somewhat
resistant to suggestion. :icon_wink: That's ok. We'll go with it.
By the way, this...
Quote
Output and ground = Continuity (damn)]
2nd and 3rd leg on the volume pot and ground = Continuity
Other pots inc 1st leg of volume =No Continuity with ground
just tells me that your volume pot is probably turned all the way down.
Quote from: EBK on September 30, 2017, 08:54:30 AM
I can see by your new meter purchase and your use of the word "continuity" 13 additional times that you're somewhat resistant to suggestion. :icon_wink: That's ok. We'll go with it.
By the way, this...
Quote
Output and ground = Continuity (damn)]
2nd and 3rd leg on the volume pot and ground = Continuity
Other pots inc 1st leg of volume =No Continuity with ground
just tells me that your volume pot is probably turned all the way down.
yes, it's starting to dawn on thick old me that this might be the case, as I speak I'm trying to wire it all up then connect a battery to check, im still getting grounding at Q4 but lets just see how this goes. I think all the crazy read outs from my last MM had me confused because my last circuit I wasn't getting sound no matter how i turned the pots
And again, thanks for staying with my crazy head through this, I feel like some of this is finally starting to stick. If I used the word beep instead of contiunity would it help lol I understand what you are saying about low resistance and continuity with ground but at this stage I'm just using the term incorrectly as a throwaway to mean 'the damn MM is beeping'
Quote from: Yata on September 30, 2017, 09:00:06 AM
If I used the word beep instead of contiunity would it help lol I understand what you are saying about low resistance and continuity with ground but at this stage I'm just using the term incorrectly as a throwaway to mean 'the damn MM is beeping'
As long as we understand what each other is talking about, any terminology is fine. You can keep using the word "continuity", and I promise to stop counting. :icon_lol:
I'll have to take another look at the schematic before I can say anything about Q4, but I need to get some coffee and do some other work in the meantime. What kind of meter did you get, by the way?
Quote from: EBK on September 30, 2017, 09:22:42 AM
Quote from: Yata on September 30, 2017, 09:00:06 AM
If I used the word beep instead of contiunity would it help lol I understand what you are saying about low resistance and continuity with ground but at this stage I'm just using the term incorrectly as a throwaway to mean 'the damn MM is beeping'
As long as we understand what each other is talking about, any terminology is fine. You can keep using the word "continuity", and I promise to stop counting. :icon_lol:
I'll have to take another look at the schematic before I can say anything about Q4, but I need to get some coffee and do some other work in the meantime. What kind of meter did you get, by the way?
N19BW digital multimeter from maplins, it has their own branding on the box and it was the one they were using in store to test stuff.
Quote from: Yata on September 30, 2017, 09:27:54 AM
Quote from: EBK on September 30, 2017, 09:22:42 AM
What kind of meter did you get, by the way?
N19BW digital multimeter from maplins, it has their own branding on the box and it was the one they were using in store to test stuff.
You can do a lot with a decent basic multimeter. I had a digital multimeter from Maplins that I bought when I was a teenager in the 1980's. It finally gave up the ghost this summer!
T.
So I wired everything up and connected my 9v power supply. I took a few readings and it seems im getting no audio past Q2/D1. Good news is at least it powers on and no shorts to my 9v.
QuoteQ1-7.66
-2.21
-1.61
Q2-2.21
-0.74
-0.14
Q3
-
-0.58
-
Q4
(https://s25.postimg.org/qn2sh3o17/IMG_20170930_160732.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/qn2sh3o17/)
Are those solder joints ok? I know there was a big discussion earlier about it, and we decided that it's lead-free so it all ok that they're dull.. but those mostly seem not there.
I expect the solder to wick through the holes for most of the joints, and certainly for ones where the component lead doesn't tightly fill the hole. That seems to have happened _rarely_ on your board. This suggests to me that you're not heating the joints enough.
Look at the switch and the pots, but the resistors are mostly the same.
I don't want to see huge blobs of solder over everything (Ugh! Nothing is worse!) but I want to see evidence that the solder has "flowed" into the joint. This requires all the parts of the connection to get to the required temperature. If you're using lead-free solder, that makes that a bit more difficult, since the required temperature is higher - either more time or a more powerful iron is required.
Ok, second opinion required from someone else. I don't expect you to believe it just 'cos some dude on the internet said it. That would be a *very* dangerous precedent to set, in general!
HTH,
Tom
Quote from: ElectricDruid on September 30, 2017, 03:49:58 PM
Are those solder joints ok? I know there was a big discussion earlier about it, and we decided that it's lead-free so it all ok that they're dull.. but those mostly seem not there.
I expect the solder to wick through the holes for most of the joints, and certainly for ones where the component lead doesn't tightly fill the hole. That seems to have happened _rarely_ on your board. This suggests to me that you're not heating the joints enough.
Look at the switch and the pots, but the resistors are mostly the same.
I don't want to see huge blobs of solder over everything (Ugh! Nothing is worse!) but I want to see evidence that the solder has "flowed" into the joint. This requires all the parts of the connection to get to the required temperature. If you're using lead-free solder, that makes that a bit more difficult, since the required temperature is higher - either more time or a more powerful iron is required.
Ok, second opinion required from someone else. I don't expect you to believe it just 'cos some dude on the internet said it. That would be a *very* dangerous precedent to set, in general!
HTH,
Tom
I can certainly try to reflow any solder joints when I have a chance tommoro, anything that might work I'll try. I think the bad LED lights from my phone camera makes some weird looking shadows though, there are some parts that look fine IRL but look almost empty on the photo. Also the most recent photos are obviously on the side where I didn't solder but I understand what you mean, you would expect all the hole at least to be filled in.
Yep, fair enough - phone cameras and lighting can be a bit weird. It often seems very difficult to get stuff like this to come out on a photo like it is in real life.
Reflow where you think appropriate and see if it makes any difference.
Tom
> I was getting a really low to zero number that climbed up eventually to a way higher number
Any time a digi-meter gives strange readings, *change the battery* !!
You would think a meter, of all things, could show a LO-BATT error alert. But far too often, my meters have gone wonky without any hint of battery weakness. Maybe they drop digital-bits and don't notice; maybe the 1.250V reference starts dropping 1.1V 1.0V 0.9V; maybe the input buffer gets cramped-up.... who knows?
And yes, the way they throw-together fairly complex meters for $3 e-retail (but $13 in stores), it could just be a factory defect finally failed.
Quote from: ElectricDruid on September 30, 2017, 05:58:04 PM
Yep, fair enough - phone cameras and lighting can be a bit weird. It often seems very difficult to get stuff like this to come out on a photo like it is in real life.
Reflow where you think appropriate and see if it makes any difference.
Tom
I basically went over every single joint on the PCB, held the iron tip (as hot as it couild go) till the solder melted again and visably went down in leve (as in flowed throughany remaining gaps) and did the same with the 3 pots.
Unfortunately that didn't help and I'm still getting the same voltage readings at the tranny pins.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to other voltages I could take that could maybe indicate what is wrong or if there is a defective part?
The top 2 lugs of the switch are bleeping with ground as well
EDIT: on going through the bleep test once more, I'm getting bleeps on both side of R10 with ground and on both sides of D5/D6 with ground. I'm also getting beep on BOTH the anode and cathode of C9 which is very strange, and contiunity through the cap as well. Could C9 be the culprit causing all this chaos? Although when I test C9 on my resistance mode it does what Id expect it to do, climb down in value then suddent jump up then repeat. Also the top two lugs of the SPDT are beeping with ground
Quote from: Yata on October 01, 2017, 11:31:22 AM
EDIT: on going through the bleep test once more, I'm getting bleeps on both side of R10 with ground and on both sides of D5/D6 with ground. I'm also getting beep on BOTH the anode and cathode of C9 which is very strange, and contiunity through the cap as well. Could C9 be the culprit causing all this chaos? Although when I test C9 on my resistance mode it does what Id expect it to do, climb down in value then suddent jump up then repeat. Also the top two lugs of the SPDT are beeping with ground
C9 may or not not be a problem, but what you've checked doesn't suggest it is. The problem is that both anode and cathode of C9 have continuity with ground - that doesn't mean C9 is faulty - unless you actually removed C9 and measured it and found continuity across it. You cannot check a capacitor for continuity/short if both ends are connected to the same reference (ground).
Take things one step at a time. You found no audio past Q2 - fix that problem first. No point in checking and trying to fix things downstream until you verify everything is fine upstream.
Quote from: Yata on September 30, 2017, 11:16:31 AM
I took a few readings and it seems im getting no audio past Q2/D1.
What I don't understand about this is that Q2 and D1 are not connected, and D1 is past Q2. So if you have no audio past Q2, D1 and other components past Q2 - downstream - should be expected to also not have audio and not considered problematic just yet.
Figure out why audio drops out after Q2. Before anything else.
Quote from: GGBB on October 01, 2017, 01:14:43 PM
Quote from: Yata on October 01, 2017, 11:31:22 AM
EDIT: on going through the bleep test once more, I'm getting bleeps on both side of R10 with ground and on both sides of D5/D6 with ground. I'm also getting beep on BOTH the anode and cathode of C9 which is very strange, and contiunity through the cap as well. Could C9 be the culprit causing all this chaos? Although when I test C9 on my resistance mode it does what Id expect it to do, climb down in value then suddent jump up then repeat. Also the top two lugs of the SPDT are beeping with ground
C9 may or not not be a problem, but what you've checked doesn't suggest it is. The problem is that both anode and cathode of C9 have continuity with ground - that doesn't mean C9 is faulty - unless you actually removed C9 and measured it and found continuity across it. You cannot check a capacitor for continuity/short if both ends are connected to the same reference (ground).
Take things one step at a time. You found no audio past Q2 - fix that problem first. No point in checking and trying to fix things downstream until you verify everything is fine upstream.
Quote from: Yata on September 30, 2017, 11:16:31 AM
I took a few readings and it seems im getting no audio past Q2/D1.
What I don't understand about this is that Q2 and D1 are not connected, and D1 is past Q2. So if you have no audio past Q2, D1 and other components past Q2 - downstream - should be expected to also not have audio and not considered problematic just yet.
Figure out why audio drops out after Q2. Before anything else.
Thanks again for the help.
I've went through it with an audio probe and I've posted the picture here (red line is my audio signal)
One thing I've noticed is that closing the 'octave' switch (just using a dpdt atm) gives me sound all the way through to the middle pin of Q3 and the + leg of D2.
I'm still confused as to why my sound isn't getting past Q3 now though, all 4 trannies are the same and I've tried every tranny in every slot to rule out a defective one.
(https://s1.postimg.org/1ktb5nn27f/audio_test.png) (https://postimg.org/image/1ktb5nn27f/)
Out of curiosity, if you remove all 4 transistors, is your result the same?
Also, what kind of transistors are you using?
One more thing: what are your DC voltages on each transistor pin?
Quote from: EBK on October 02, 2017, 12:07:55 PM
Out of curiosity, if you remove all 4 transistors, is your result the same?
Also, what kind of transistors are you using?
One more thing: what are your DC voltages on each transistor pin?
Nah, If I remove the transistor pins I can only hear a faint clean signal up till about Q2. With the trannies in I hear a heavily distortion/fuzz sound, also noticed Q2 has very very faint sound on the other two pins (distorted ofc)
The pin votlages havent changed from my earlier post
QuoteQ1-7.66
-2.21
-1.61
Q2-2.21
-0.74
-0.14
Q3
-
-0.58
-
Q4
I also included a picture earlier on this page of what pin is what on the PCB if that helps, the transistors are 2N3904
here is the schematic/instructions : http://pedalparts.co.uk/docs/UltimatumFuzz.pdf
Hmm.... You should be measuring the voltages by placing your common (black) probe on your circuit ground and measuring each point with the red probe, i.e., the values should be positive numbers.. Edit: I'm thinking those must have been intended as bullets instead of minuses.
Also, where you have "-" but no number, is that what the meter is showing?
Quote from: EBK on October 02, 2017, 02:27:36 PM
Hmm.... You should be measuring the voltages by placing your common (black) probe on your circuit ground and measuring each point with the red probe, i.e., the values should be positive numbers.. Edit: I'm thinking those must have been intended as bullets instead of minuses.
Also, where you have "-" but no number, is that what the meter is showing?
0 volts, sorry for hte confusion, I should have just used bullet points.
The voltages on Q3 and the fact that sound drops after Q3 are consistent with each other (good) and suggest that something is shorting Q3 collector - and maybe emitter - to ground. Shorting the emitter to ground is a problem, but shouldn't cause loss of sound - actually the opposite - huge gain. But if the collector is shorted to ground, then emitter would show 0 volts even if not shorted to ground (I think - experts please correct me if I'm wrong). So the next problem to figure out is why Q3 collector is 0 volts. This could be a faulty component or a solder bridge (even a tiny one that isn't easy to spot). The immediate suspect component is R17 - measure the resistance across it with no power source connected. If it is zero, either the resistor is bad (shorted) or somewhere (probably nearby) there is a solder bridge connecting the R17-C9-Q3C junction to ground. EDIT: It's also possible that C9 is a problem - you noted before that both sides have continuity with ground - to be sure I would pull it and measure - if you find that R17 is fine.
I didn't notice if you posted pics of the solder side of your latest build - if not, now is a good time.
Quote from: GGBB on October 02, 2017, 07:06:01 PM
The voltages on Q3 and the fact that sound drops after Q3 are consistent with each other (good) and suggest that something is shorting Q3 collector - and maybe emitter - to ground. Shorting the emitter to ground is a problem, but shouldn't cause loss of sound - actually the opposite - huge gain. But if the collector is shorted to ground, then emitter would show 0 volts even if not shorted to ground (I think - experts please correct me if I'm wrong). So the next problem to figure out is why Q3 collector is 0 volts. This could be a faulty component or a solder bridge (even a tiny one that isn't easy to spot). The immediate suspect component is R17 - measure the resistance across it with no power source connected. If it is zero, either the resistor is bad (shorted) or somewhere (probably nearby) there is a solder bridge connecting the R17-C9-Q3C junction to ground. EDIT: It's also possible that C9 is a problem - you noted before that both sides have continuity with ground - to be sure I would pull it and measure - if you find that R17 is fine.
I didn't notice if you posted pics of the solder side of your latest build - if not, now is a good time.
I tested the resistance of R17 (not sure how to read the display on the MM) but at the 20K setting it was showing 4.46 which is the same as the similar value resistor R24.
here is the pictures of the solder side
https://imgur.com/a/el14A
I've not pulled C9 yet but I'll try this afternoon, it's quite hard to pull components from these fuzzdogs boards though without @#$%ing the solder pads. When I pulled a bunch of caps from my last board it destroyed it completely.
edit: pulled C9 and still getting continiuty with ground on both sides of the pads C9 was connected to. Alsoi when I pulled C9 and tested my top resistance mode on it, it started with a number and then just climbed higher untill it went higher than the MM can measure.
Sorry to repost again but just wondering if anybody had any more thoughts on this?
It has came to a complete standstill but at the very least I've managed to build a few more pedals while I've been waiting (arcadiator 8bit fuzz that sounds amazing).
I'll keep the PCB and components but doest anybody reckon there is a hope in hell of me getting this finished or should I just relegate it to the cupboard.
The fact that you've built other pedals that work means there is hope.
I think your problem is around R17.
If no current is flowing through that resistor, we'd expect the collector of Q3 to be about 9V. You are measuring 0V, which suggests R17 is disconnected from the positive supply and/or Q3. Measure the voltage on each side of R17.
Quote from: EBK on October 13, 2017, 09:29:48 AM
The fact that you've built other pedals that work means there is hope.
yeah, it's both reassuring and frustrating at the same time.
The first pedal I built was a reverb pedal that seemed to go without a hitch even though the soldering was awfull. After the mess up with this foxtone I built the arcadiator which seemed more complicated and sounded amazing and the fuzz face and klon buffer I built all both seem to work. I feel like this foxxtone PCB is cursed somehow, this is my second set of PCB's for this pedal and I still can't get it to work lol.
Just to clarify, while Gord was suggesting a short, I'm suggesting you have a break instead. I do not suspect a bad component, but rather a bad joint or a broken trace.
Another possibility would be that some of the holes are not plated through the board, and solder could be connecting R17 to the bottom of the board but not the top.
Quote from: EBK on October 13, 2017, 09:29:48 AM
The fact that you've built other pedals that work means there is hope.
I think your problem is around R17.
If no current is flowing through that resistor, we'd expect the collector of Q3 to be about 9V. You are measuring 0V, which suggests R17 is disconnected from the positive supply and/or Q3. Measure the voltage on each side of R17.
Good idea.