Hey guys,
Firstly, I'd like to say that I am quite OCD. I'd consider myself very methodical when it comes to my builds. I find it really reduces room for error. I keep my workbench very tidy and organised - and I pay attention to each and every solder joint.
I don't mind builders who prefer working really symmetrically and angular with wiring, but it does irritate me when I get a message from someone who wants me to build them a pedal, and despite all the effort I go to, despite paying that little bit extra for better quality parts, taking my time and all the rest - they just want to see "gut shots", and even though they don't build pedals and will be using it to play, they really want to see super neat and tidy internal wiring, as though it is some form of reflection of quality.
Recently, I've been having a go at this trend of super neat internal wiring. I have to say, as someone who receives quite a few orders to build pedals, I am finding it un-necessarily time consuming. I just end up getting through orders way slower - not very efficient. Also, I end up having to use waste way more cable than normal. Most of the wiring is now much longer than I'd normally have it, just to achieve symmetry and angles.
Surely this is just for aesthetics? I do appreciate how nice it looks, but I question its advantages. I actually found that by doing this, the wiring often has more tension - which I would personally have thought creates more of a risk of the wires straining and breaking loose over time.
Anyway - just wondering what others feel about this. Personally, my OCD side loves how it looks, but I feel like I am too busy to put that much into internal aesthetics that can't be seen on the outside and doesn't effect function and sound - and it really does irritate me when a buyer who knows nothing about the internal workings of a pedal wants it to look really symmetrical inside before they make a purchase. I feel like telling them that there is going to be zero difference in sound or performance, and it'll just take longer for them to receive their pedal.
Anyway - here was my latest attempt. I don't know how some people do it - this was the best I could manage, although admittedly it was a very busy build. Its a KoT clone with dual externalised diode switches on each side, and a high-gain mod to the right side (IC's haven't arrived yet). Sometimes I build an 8-knob version of these with externalised presence control rather than the internal trimmer. No idea how I'd keep that one as tidy though!
Fair play to those of you who can do neater, faster - I just can't seem to manage it! ;D
Steve.
(https://s17.postimg.org/u37az8ka3/24209694_10160081453680144_1410886628_o.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/u37az8ka3/)
I give it some thought... but, not a lot.
I feel I build for durability which I feel is more important. For that reason, I crimp over all of my connections (jacks/pots/switches) and heat-shrink everything. It makes it hard to do all that "right-angle" twisted-pair stuff... So, I just don't!
Putting tiny heat-shrink on LED and power jack connections is really a PITA, but I think worth it so the 9V batter(y) snap doesn't get pulled off the power jack, etc..
I hate the way 3PDT switches look when they are soldered up. For that reason, I always use daughterboards to connect wiring to them. Way nicer looking, and less likely to melt down the epoxy on the switch connections causing lots of lost time.
Anyway-- that is my .02!
MC
I tend to minimize the need for offboard wiring by layout. Route everything that's going to the switch to the bottom of the board and mount the pots on the board, place connectors for power together and as close as possible to the dc-jack.
This one is messier than most of my recent pedals as it has a battery. Really should have placed the dc-jack on the side, next to the connectors on the board.
(http://rumbust.net/dl56?display)
Pretty cool guys! Thanks :)
Yes - I think as we gain experience, we see ways of incorporating 'damage limitation', and implement build techniques that ensure added durability
Since I build mostly for myself, I tend to be a bit looser with the "standards". Not to say that I discard attention to detail completely, but I know that my stuff will go from the bench to the studio, and most probably stay there for the rest of their days. I will however never stray from certain mechanical certainties, such as heatshrink over in-line resistors, keeping leads as short as possible on flying components, etc. For example, the resistors and diodes soldered to the toggles in your picture, to me, it will be only a matter of time before those leads or solder joints break. Same for the LED resistors. Drop that puppy a few times, and inertia will do the rest.
I have to differ with Mark on the 3PDT switch daughterboards. While neater, I don't think that there's any mechanical advantage that can outweigh the aesthetic value. First of all, two solder joints is not better than one. Soldering the wire directly to the lug means one solder joint to deal with. Soldering a daughterboard to the switch, only to have to solder the wires on 3mm further over, makes no sense to me. The heat required to solder the daughterboard to the switch is another issue. I find that heat needs to be applied for a much longer period of time to adequately fill up the crater hole around the lug. In my opinion, there's a greater risk here of overheating the switch potting than would be if you simply solder the wire to the lug. For me, unless the switch will be part of what will be securing the circuit board, those little daughterboards are a colossal waste of solder and time. But... to each his/her own. Speaking of securing boards...
Unattached boards, that worries me more than the wiring. While some folks try with reckless abandon to shoehorn the mostest into the leastest, I prefer to have a board that's a little bigger, offering me mounting holes for stand-offs, rather than have a board floating around inside an enclosure. If that means a larger enclosure, than so be it. Don't care. For me, there's only two options; either it's a board that has board mounted pots/switches that secure the board, or mounting holes for stand-off's. That, for me, is primero over neat wiring, any day of the week, and twice on Sunday's. Amen.
Insofar as builds for paying customers are concerned, my main criteria;
1 - Does it work?
2 - Will it work after being kicked, dropped, stomped on, falling out of the back of the van, handled by (insert name of most hated courier company here), zombie invasion, 2 year old using it to hammer on his/her Fisher Price toy, etc?
3 - Is the wiring neater than anything John Schumann ever put out? (OK, that one's pretty easy to cover. I mean, is it secured well enough to endure point 2.)
Three yesses, and it's out the door. :icon_cool:
Hi,
Pete Cornish seems to be the industry standard for reliable pedalboards/multieffect boxes. Correct me if I'm wrong.
This is an example of his work. Lots of wire, but they are neatly bundled and organized. Looks like something done by NASA.
(http://www.dropbox.com/s/1qvi7wwuxoz6ywm/Lou-1.jpg?raw=1)
If I can't mount something to the board I try to do it like this. Also, sometimes I use flat cables. Not sure if this is bad for noise, but looks neat.
One thing you can do is build one effect in several styles, measure time taken, noise and effort. Then you show this lot to your clients, as examples, and let them decide.
EDIT:
Found the gutshot of a single effect by Cornish. Wires are bundled and protected with heatshrink.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/gqui1fdjggfe5tn/P2%20Guts2a.jpg?raw=1)
Quote from: digi2t on November 30, 2017, 09:54:14 AM
I have to differ with Mark
:) It's why I love you Dino!!
MC
Corish's stuff does very much look like avionics wiring....
(Or, MIL SPEC)
MC
Cornish does great stuff. He sent me a funny cease and desist letter once. It was all typed out in caps so that I knew he was very angry, and had a lot of spelling mistakes - I guess he typed it in a fury. It was because I had a pedal on eBay and mentioned in the description that it was based on a model of his - but in the description I also clearly stated I had modified it as my own take on it. I told him it was similar to how his own version was a modified Big Muff. He never responded. Still, respected his wished and removed any mention of his name from the description.
Anyway, it definitely is very satisfying, I just don't have the time to put that much effort into the appearance of inside. As long as the soldering is done with care, and everything is safe and durable, I'm happy. I just find it odd when people buying pedals with no knowledge of how they work want it to look pretty inside. It strikes me as a strange request which I have received a few times. I think cork sniffers like showing off the insides of their pedals - maybe its their version of porn. It is kinda sexy looking to be fair...
Quote from: italianguy63 on November 30, 2017, 11:11:48 AM
Quote from: digi2t on November 30, 2017, 09:54:14 AM
I have to differ with Mark
:) It's why I love you Dino!!
MC
Right back atcha bro!
OK... enough of that. It's getting weird. :icon_redface:
Quote from: steveyraff on November 30, 2017, 11:56:11 AM
Cornish does great stuff. He sent me a funny cease and desist letter once. It was all typed out in caps so that I knew he was very angry, and had a lot of spelling mistakes - I guess he typed it in a fury. It was because I had a pedal on eBay and mentioned in the description that it was based on a model of his - but in the description I also clearly stated I had modified it as my own take on it. I told him it was similar to how his own version was a modified Big Muff. He never responded. Still, respected his wished and removed any mention of his name from the description.
Imitation is supposed to be the greatest form of flattery... unless the name Pete Cornish is entered into the equation, I guess. :icon_rolleyes:
After hearing that, I'm going to dump all my Cornish stuff.
Wait....
I don't have any.
OK.
I'm good.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/gqui1fdjggfe5tn/P2%20Guts2a.jpg?raw=1)
That shows the proper way to dress screened cable ends (grey cable). Sleeve over the screen wires and shrink over the breakout from the cable sheath. The solder terminations are not sleeved.
Myself, I only sleeve over joints when there's a big risk of shorting to something - otherwise no one can inspect the soldering.
It also shows that, although it's inside a screened enclosure, screened cable can be a good idea for sensitive connections.
I don't believe in tight bundling of wires. If you do it, it can cause damage if the binding is too tight or any wires are too tight.
In large installations such as a pedal board or multi-fx box, I'd use spiral wrap. It keeps the wires in the route without pinching and it can be unwrapped if it needs work.
Quote from: digi2t on November 30, 2017, 12:08:03 PM
Imitation is supposed to be the greatest form of flattery... unless the name Pete Cornish is entered into the equation, I guess. :icon_rolleyes:
I did actually also mention that in the reply :)
Quote from: steveyraff on November 30, 2017, 11:56:11 AM
Anyway, it definitely is very satisfying, I just don't have the time to put that much effort into the appearance of inside. As long as the soldering is done with care, and everything is safe and durable, I'm happy. I just find it odd when people buying pedals with no knowledge of how they work want it to look pretty inside. It strikes me as a strange request which I have received a few times. I think cork sniffers like showing off the insides of their pedals - maybe its their version of porn. It is kinda sexy looking to be fair...
Are you familiar with Parkinson's Law or "bikeshedding"?
From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality):
QuoteThe concept was first presented as a corollary of his broader "Parkinson's law" spoof of management. He dramatizes this "law of triviality" with the example of a committee's deliberations on an atomic reactor, contrasting it to deliberations on a bicycle shed. As he put it: "The time spent on any item of the agenda will be in inverse proportion to the sum [of money] involved." A reactor is so vastly expensive and complicated that an average person cannot understand it, so one assumes that those who work on it understand it. On the other hand, everyone can visualize a cheap, simple bicycle shed, so planning one can result in endless discussions because everyone involved wants to add a touch and show personal contribution.
I work with software and I experience it every day. The trick is to put up something trivial (like font colors) for people to argue about, so they get the warm feeling they contributed to the project, while you do the real work somewhere else =)
QuoteCornish does great stuff. He sent me a funny cease and desist letter once.
How does any body find out if their name/brand is being used? Does he have a search-bot scanning the interwebs for instances of "Cornish"?
Quote from: anotherjim on November 30, 2017, 12:10:47 PM
I don't believe in tight bundling of wires. If you do it, it can cause damage if the binding is too tight or any wires are too tight.
In large installations such as a pedal board or multi-fx box, I'd use spiral wrap. It keeps the wires in the route without pinching and it can be unwrapped if it needs work.
Spiral wrap is actually a nice idea, if you can unwrap easily. About bundling, notice that the last segment coming out from the bundles have generous stress relief, so things can move around a bit without stressing solder joints. A stretched wire/cable/bundle is just asking for trouble. I think the worst that can happen is some crosstalk.
EDIT because...
Quote from: anotherjim on November 30, 2017, 12:21:24 PM
QuoteCornish does great stuff. He sent me a funny cease and desist letter once.
How does any body find out if their name/brand is being used? Does he have a search-bot scanning the interwebs for instances of "Cornish"?
I know digital marketing agencies that offer such bots as a service. Maybe he does search for his products from time to time. IIRC he puts a tag with the owners name on each pedal he sells.
The right-angle stuff, I think of old Hiwatts, there can be some advantage to routing wire that way sometimes, but mostly it's done for looks. The electrons don't give a damn. Hell, they probably prefer gentle curves if you ask them.
I don't to attempt to do any wiring other then to the jacks, while it's all mounted in the enclosure. I drill a thin piece of plywood/cereal box, to match the enclosure layout, mount everything to that and do the wiring with easy access from all around the jig to the solder points.
dave
Quote from: davent on November 30, 2017, 01:38:17 PM
I drill a thin piece of plywood/cereal box, to match the enclosure layout, mount everything to that and do the wiring with easy access from all around the jig to the solder points.
I remember seeing pictures of such a jig before. Looks like it produces very nice results.
Quote from: Perrow on November 30, 2017, 08:27:14 AM
I tend to minimize the need for offboard wiring by layout. Route everything that's going to the switch to the bottom of the board and mount the pots on the board, place connectors for power together and as close as possible to the dc-jack.
Huge +1 on that. I'm pretty lazy when it comes to wiring off-board components, so the less wires I do and the shorter they are the better. I try to design board layouts for minimal mess and possibility of error. My builds don't look like pickdropper's by any means (I haven't seen him around lately, hope he's okay), but they're much better than they used to be.
Pickdropper's still frequent at Madbean's forum but i think a pedal company he has with a couple others may be taking up a lot of his former build time.
Leevibe is another name to look out for at Madbean but he may have been, maybe pickdropper too, Phoobucket casualties.
dave
I try to think of ability to assemble and disassemble without having to disconnect anything or stress wires, so I will choose an edge of board and enclosure that will become the hinge point where it will 'unfold' and select the wire lengths and paths to pass through that both assembled and disassembled..
end of the day, it's your build and you get to call the shots on how far to go to please the customer (or yourself for that matter)
not a pedal, but shows the idea.
(https://s17.postimg.org/v8xzcm0x7/B1_Siq62.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/v8xzcm0x7/)
Quote from: anotherjim on November 30, 2017, 12:21:24 PM
QuoteCornish does great stuff. He sent me a funny cease and desist letter once.
How does any body find out if their name/brand is being used? Does he have a search-bot scanning the interwebs for instances of "Cornish"?
I am glad you brought this up. I'd also advertised it on a classified section of a gear forum of some kind. Between it, and my eBay listing, I got numerous private messages from supposed fanboys saying things like "Does Pete know you are doing this?!". When I'd go to their profile or page, they'd have a lot of pictures of their pedalboards and their collection of Cornish pedals they were obviously very proud of. Again, this happened numerous times from different individuals. The forum was the worst because it started an argument amongst Cornish owners who were trying to say no one could make a clone as good as an original.
Anyway, I could only assume at least one individual ran to Pete and told on me lol. :icon_lol: :icon_rolleyes:
Either that, or as you say, he is searching eBay for his own products - but he is a busy man running a small company, so I doubted that. I also got one once from Zvex - but that was more understandable.
Quote from: Perrow on November 30, 2017, 08:27:14 AM
I tend to minimize the need for offboard wiring by layout.
(http://rumbust.net/dl56?display)
+1 agree with this. Avoid the need for internal wiring by design as far as possible. Not only is it slow and error-prone to do, it's also the biggest point of failure - wires breaking off the board/jack/switches somewhere.
T.
Here is the true exemplar of neat wiring:
(http://www.sparkbench.com/acme/a4.jpg)
and this is the associated schematic for the Acme Four-Tube Reflex Receiver:
(http://www.sparkbench.com/acme/blueschema.gif)
A lot of radio's from the 1920's were made like this.
This amp goes by the name of the Beast, sixteen power tubes and it's not mine by any means. A hobbyist's build, blows my mind...
http://sharksphotos.yolasite.com/
(http://sharksphotos.yolasite.com/resources/P1010030.JPG.opt836x627o0,0s836x627.JPG)
(http://sharksphotos.yolasite.com/resources/P1000718.JPG.opt860x645o0,0s860x645.JPG)
(http://sharksphotos.yolasite.com/resources/P1010042.JPG.opt860x645o0,0s860x645.JPG)
dave
Quote from: ElectricDruid on November 30, 2017, 03:45:14 PM
Quote from: Perrow on November 30, 2017, 08:27:14 AM
I tend to minimize the need for offboard wiring by layout.
(http://rumbust.net/dl56?display)
+1 agree with this. Avoid the need for internal wiring by design as far as possible. Not only is it slow and error-prone to do, it's also the biggest point of failure - wires breaking off the board/jack/switches somewhere.
T.
Yes, slow and error prone.
I forgot to say, the led is also board mounted. Center of board just below the switch wires in the picture (you just see the legs as two dots), right below it is the led resistor. I hate mounting leds off board, sadly discovered this after I bought a 50 pack of led bezels.
ps. That reflex build looks like someone thought the schematic was the layout.
Quote from: amptramp on November 30, 2017, 06:32:15 PM
Here is the true exemplar of neat wiring:
(http://www.sparkbench.com/acme/a4.jpg)
and this is the associated schematic for the Acme Four-Tube Reflex Receiver:
(http://www.sparkbench.com/acme/blueschema.gif)
A lot of radio's from the 1920's were made like this.
I think I see a "copper wire thingy" from a burst box to the right of the tubes. :)
MC
Seriously, watch this thread, i feel like A power chord man only and you guys are effortless shredder with full soul :icon_twisted:
So amazing example.
===
and as always, the question ;D
what best solid wire like in Davent and amptramp post?
Quote from: davent on November 30, 2017, 06:39:44 PM
This amp goes by the name of the Beast, sixteen power tubes and it's not mine by any means. A hobbyist's build, blows my mind...
http://sharksphotos.yolasite.com/
(http://sharksphotos.yolasite.com/resources/P1010030.JPG.opt836x627o0,0s836x627.JPG)
(http://sharksphotos.yolasite.com/resources/P1000718.JPG.opt860x645o0,0s860x645.JPG)
...
Hah, looks like an overhead view of an industrial plant thing, like a refinery.
I aspire to it, but rarely achieve it. Using solid core wire helps, mechanical strength of fixing and routing take precedent. A fetish for hot glue doesn't help either....
Planning the board and enclosure fittings is the biggest help. Having said that I will often wire up board mounted pots to change the layout of the enclosure, there's no helping some people you know :icon_lol:
Quote from: 287m on December 01, 2017, 04:22:26 AM
Seriously, watch this thread, i feel like A power chord man only and you guys are effortless shredder with full soul :icon_twisted:
So amazing example.
===
and as always, the question ;D
what best solid wire like in Davent and amptramp post?
All i could find in the write up was,
"The thick twisted blue wire is Neotech 0.8 solid core which is what I used when I ran out of Bruce's supplied 0.8 solid core."dave
Quote from: davent on November 30, 2017, 06:39:44 PM
(http://sharksphotos.yolasite.com/resources/P1010042.JPG.opt860x645o0,0s860x645.JPG)
I want it so bad I think I might puke. :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: vigilante397 on December 07, 2017, 11:40:55 AM
Quote from: davent on November 30, 2017, 06:39:44 PM
(http://sharksphotos.yolasite.com/resources/P1010042.JPG.opt860x645o0,0s860x645.JPG)
I want it so bad I think I might puke. :icon_mrgreen:
That's a mono-block, there's a twin.
(http://sharksphotos.yolasite.com/resources/P1010046.JPG.opt860x645o0,0s860x645.JPG)
dave
Hi,
The guy who built this monster said he was following a project from Bruce. Do any of you guys have any info about the original project? Who is Bruce? hehehe
Thanks!
I aspired to do it at first but i never had the patience to achieve that level of extra tidiness OP was mentioning, mostly because i'm extremely lazy and offboard wiring has to be one of the most boring thing to do ever in my opinion. It's annoying when you have a completed board, you know it works, but you have to go through that wiring phase. Bleh.
So i went completely the other way and now board mount everything, you have to be extra precise with your drilling to line up the components perfectly so you avoid excessive "tension" on the pots and the jacks when everything's tightened up.
It doesn't have the "boutique" look for sure but it works for me :
(https://s33.postimg.org/hulsw4it7/IMG_0636.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/hulsw4it7/)
(https://s33.postimg.org/hhuepqq6z/IMG_0634.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/hhuepqq6z/)
Quote from: marcelomd on December 07, 2017, 02:03:03 PM
Hi,
The guy who built this monster said he was following a project from Bruce. Do any of you guys have any info about the original project? Who is Bruce? hehehe
Thanks!
Bruce Rozenblit is an anti snake oil guru in the hifi world. Has a kit company called Transcendent Sound and also published a few books with his designs so you can scratch build those contained in them. I've built his Grounded Grid Preamp from the book Audio Reality, maybe a dozen or more years ago, still functioning and sounding great like new. (It's also available as a kit.)
'The Beast" kit with tubes is not cheap and looks nothing like the one pictured, totally function over form, zero for cosmetics.
Can't begin to imagine how much money was poured into making them pretty.
http://www.transcendentsound.com/Transcendent_Sound_BEAST_OTL_Tube_Amp.html
dave
Ha. If you want the tubes included it's an additional $1800. No thanks!
I can't bring myself to spend real money on music reproduction. I'd much rather buy a guitar or build an amp or something.
Like in a Hiwatt the neat dressing facilitates the crossing of wires at right angles to reduce the possibility of coupling and oscillation. I can tell you from quite a bit of experience, a Hiwatt is a lot easier to repair than, say, a late 70s Fender with it's spaghetti wiring. Also, Hiwatts don't need all of the extra things to stop oscillations of poor lead dress that adversely effect tone, again silverface Fender I'm looking at you. Not that silverface Fenders are bad at all, one of my main amps for years is a silver vibrolux reverb that I modded to brown specs for the verb channel and blonde twin for the normal, but every now and then I go in and chew off a little more of dressing the wires better.
When I build an amp, I aspire to Hiwatt build quality, yes I build less amps that way, but I can charge more for them, folks want the super neat custom amp on turrets thing. Plus, it's a lot easier for me to diagnose and repair if I need to.
For pedals, I try to be neat and minimize as much off board as possible without sacrificing quality. They're neat as I can reasonably make them without wasting time, using bonded wire that's easy to dress helps a lot, I usually get mine from Smallbear.
I build cryogenic microwave amps under a microscope for my day job and one thing I can definitely tell you is that meticulous attention to detail (to a point, sometimes it really more about aesthetics, I don't really bother too much with that, you have to know which things are important to worry about) heads off a lot of time troubleshooting when something doesn't work.
Quote from: davent on December 07, 2017, 02:44:27 PM
Quote from: marcelomd on December 07, 2017, 02:03:03 PM
Hi,
The guy who built this monster said he was following a project from Bruce. Do any of you guys have any info about the original project? Who is Bruce? hehehe
Thanks!
Bruce Rozenblit is an anti snake oil guru in the hifi world. Has a kit company called Transcendent Sound and also published a few books with his designs so you can scratch build those contained in them. I've built his Grounded Grid Preamp from the book Audio Reality, maybe a dozen or more years ago, still functioning and sounding great like new. (It's also available as a kit.)
'The Beast" kit with tubes is not cheap and looks nothing like the one pictured, totally function over form, zero for cosmetics.
Can't begin to imagine how much money was poured into making them pretty.
http://www.transcendentsound.com/Transcendent_Sound_BEAST_OTL_Tube_Amp.html
dave
Oooh niiice. Thanks!
I have seen rectangular wire used in two very disparate places: My Freshman Masterpiece radio from 1925 and the Hermes spacecraft. The Freshman was the first mass-produced radio and it was made from 1924 to 1926.
(http://www.radioblvd.com/photos/Freshman1.jpg)
The Hermes spacecraft used NASA NHB5300.4 quality standards and one of the standards was for the use of cuts and jumpers on printed circuit boards. The jumper wires were flat rectangular section that would fit on a gullwing package with a lead width of 0.014 to 0.025 inch width and it could not extend beyond the edge of the lead.
Goes to 100 :icon_eek: