I'm boxing up my Hearthrob Trem, which is just a killer sounding trem, I like that it's simple and versatile and easy to build.
I think it would be great to have a companion trem, that sits between my univibe and the hearthrob in sonic territory.
That leads to Harmonic, Brownface type trems, which I love the sound of (never played through one, though).
There seems to be a few designs around from a few years ago,
Wanted to check what would be nice and simple, and get that kinda vibe across?
I have an eye on the RG Keen Ersatz Fender Pro Vibe
The twin peaks seems overkill for me.
Any other circuits that fit the bill?
Thank You
I quite like Jon Patton's Cardinal tremolo. The thread is here (https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=101722.msg899185#msg899185), although the original pictures seem to have gone... You can find v2 build docs at 1776 (https://1776effects.com/products/cardinal-tremolo-v2). (I built the v1 incarnation.)
v1: (https://i.imgur.com/oKqqyiy.png) v2: (https://i.imgur.com/5ze0WZs.png)
That does look cool, only problem is finding Vactorals here is a mission (well it was last time i tried)
Apparently finding 2n5952 or 2n5485's is a mission here as well.
Dammit this country.
Any substitutes for those if I went the Fender Pro Vibe / Vibra-tone route?
Rolling your own vactrols isn't that hard, really. I would hope that finding LEDs, photocells, and shrink tubing isn't as hard as finding 2N5952s.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on June 12, 2019, 10:32:33 AM
Rolling your own vactrols isn't that hard, really. I would hope that finding LEDs, photocells, and shrink tubing isn't as hard as finding 2N5952s.
Hmm, that would be a pretty rad DIY feather in the cap.
Yeah photocells by the bucketload round here.
Thanks Mark.
I find a few hurdles to clear in making them:
1) A stable proximity between LED and LDR is important. Some folks will use those thin flat LEDs, and lie the LDR on one side of the LED. I use regular round LEDs, fille the top down flat so that it takes the shape of a soup can, and adhere the LDR to that now flattened surface.
2) Shrink tubing isn't quite as opaque as you might think. Black is certainly better than grey, white or yellow for keeping external light out, but consider two layers of heat shrink for insurance. Either way, do note that what you measure when the unit is sitting atop your work surface is going to be affected by ambient light from your workspace, which will NOT be there when the unit is installed inside a box. Good to have some object handy that can block out most light from the unit when you go to measure it.
3) If you can, find out what light wavelength the LDR is most sensitive to, and make sure to use an LED colour that complements that.
4) LEDs can be gotten in different efficiencies. It may be best to start out with higher-efficiency units and simply up the current-limiting resistance of whatever is driving the LED to get a suitable brightness, as opposed to using an under-illuminating LED and wondering why the LDR isn't showing much variation.
I haven't had the opportunity to test this yet, but I think a double layer consisting of light-colored heat shrink (to concentrate maximum LED light to the photocell) with an outer layer of black might be the best.
Thanks Mark,
I'm a bit concerned about all the "absolutely need a VTL5C1 for the Cardinal" I've been reading, but I can see about matching those specs (plenty of LDR dark resistance variants I can choose from, above 30M), etc.
Quote from: Ben N on June 12, 2019, 12:19:29 PM
I haven't had the opportunity to test this yet, but I think a double layer consisting of light-colored heat shrink (to concentrate maximum LED light to the photocell) with an outer layer of black might be the best.
Or, I suppose a person could simply wrap the assembly in aluminum foil (shiny side in), and then encase
that in heat shrink. I'm going to have to try that out.
So far the Cardinal and the Vibra-Tone/Ersatz Fender both have caveats.
Are their any other options, before I start getting parts together?
I might end up placing an overseas order and add some cool stuff I can't get here, in the end...
Quote from: Mark Hammer on June 12, 2019, 01:35:31 PM
Or, I suppose a person could simply wrap the assembly in aluminum foil (shiny side in), and then encase that in heat shrink. I'm going to have to try that out.
Add an extra wire in there for grounding the foil and you will a bit have extra shielding for interference... Probably not really usefull, but guaranteed to confuse somebody who tries tracing/cloning your circuit. :)
I've been wanting to build a harmonic tremolo too, and the Cardinal is atop my list, but I put it on hold due to the "VTL5C1" then the importance of matching Q2 and Q3. I can easily get SMD 2N5457's and have some 2N5458's which according to the documentation is a fine substitute, but the idea of trying to match SMD transistors isn't appealing.
Regarding the VTL5C1 has anyone tired the Xvive ones? I've seen some cheap on ebay, but recently got some VTL5C3 which have a coloured dot to represent the version (yellow in the case of the VTL5C3) which were more expensive, and don't look like the ones on ebay, and were purchased from a reputable synth supplier.
Joncaster you asked if there is another option: Catalinbread Pareidolia schematic is out there.
But I'd personally prefer to try and make the Cardinal, my stumbling blocks being the matching for SMD FETs and the VTL5C1 unless the Xvive VTL5C1 is a fine substitute.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k6yVf9Sw/VTL5-C3-01.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/k6yVf9Sw)
Curiously my VTL5C3 has different markings and the Xvive 'X' is different to that on their website which makes me wonder if I really have an Xvive!
http://www.xviveaudio.com/productInfo.asp?id=358 (http://www.xviveaudio.com/productInfo.asp?id=358)
I'm still looking at the Jfet Vibratone, cause if I can just get a bunch of the right Jfets locally, it's easier than doing a smallbear order and shipping.
Currently wondering if NTE451's will work in place of the 2n5952/2n5485/2sk30?
Seems to have a similar Vgsoff... Not sure what else to look for.
Quote from: FlyingWild on June 13, 2019, 05:01:32 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/k6yVf9Sw/VTL5-C3-01.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/k6yVf9Sw)
Curiously my VTL5C3 has different markings and the Xvive 'X' is different to that on their website which makes me wonder if I really have an Xvive!
http://www.xviveaudio.com/productInfo.asp?id=358 (http://www.xviveaudio.com/productInfo.asp?id=358)
That looks like the Xvive optos we've got here in the Druid workshop. We bought a thousand direct from Xvive in Singapore, so I know they're the real deal. If anyone's interested, I can put them up in the shop. At the moment we only sell them as part of the parts kit for the FilterFX pedal (https://electricdruid.net/filterfx-lp-bp-hp-lfo-filter/) (discussed here in another thread somewhere).
I hadn't noticed the Filter FX previously. Sounds nice, and the StompLFO certainly simplifies things. If you had a suitable threshold detector, the One-Shot generator could be used to provide a triggered envelope sweep when repeats are minimized. That's neither better or worse than a steady-state LFO, merely a different flavour.
I might also note that band-reject (notch) sounds nice when modulated/swept. Anderton included that option in his EPFM Super Tone Control, which is also a state-variable filter. The builder would need a 4-position rotary to imp0lement it, however.
Maybe I should knock up a quick StompLFO harmonic trem? Wouldn't be that hard to do. Would have quite a lot of options for quite a limited number of parts. Only trouble is two optos in anything doesn't make for the cheapest build. Still, it'd sound nice I'm sure.
That said, "quickly knocking something up" usually takes me several months. That's just how it goes. First design, then test, then PCB layout, then prototype, then revising the design, redoing the layout, ordering more PCBs, building them up, etc etc...takes a while, even if you get right on the case.
PS: Mark, I agree about the FilterFX and the Oneshot. Since the Oneshot and StompLFO chips are very similar, it is actually possible to stick the OneShot in the FilterFX hardware and trigger it using the (previously) "tap tempo" switch. It's a bit wacky, but there's a few good sounds to be had out of it.
I hadn't noticed the Filter FX either. Looks interesting!
Quote from: ElectricDruid on June 14, 2019, 01:59:36 PM
If anyone's interested, I can put them up in the shop.
Yes please, Tom. :)
I'd certainly be interested to see what you came up with ElectricDruid.
I'm putting together a Tremulous Lune at the moment which is what the VTL5C3 is for, but I'll probably be itching to play with a new tremolo by the time you're not quite done with the first design ;-)
>maybe I should knock up a quick StompLFO harmonic trem?
https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=103714.0
Quote from: samhay on June 15, 2019, 03:03:19 AM
>maybe I should knock up a quick StompLFO harmonic trem?
https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=103714.0
Another edit:
Sam, is your project still available?
Can't find any files on that thread of yours.
Thanks
Last edit, i promise:
Found it! sorry, didn't read far enough, doh.
Hooray, I can source all the parts locally for your Anharmonic Trem, Sam.
I'll give that a try first, I think.
My current ability to import stuff (like a smallbear order) is severely limited by our import laws (max 3 shipments a year without a Code, and it's a heavy process to get a code).
Quote from: FlyingWild on June 14, 2019, 06:08:15 PM
I'd certainly be interested to see what you came up with ElectricDruid.
I'm putting together a Tremulous Lune at the moment which is what the VTL5C3 is for, but I'll probably be itching to play with a new tremolo by the time you're not quite done with the first design ;-)
Well, David Rolo's Twin Peaks (or the Delky PCBs Cherry Pie based on it) is a fantastic bit of work and sounds great, but it has literally *all* the bells and whistles, which makes it a bit complicated for some people. The TapLFO chip has a lot of options and controls if you use them all. So I was just thinking of a simplified version using the StompLFO instead - keep the harmonic trem audio path, but use a simpler LFO to reduce the knob and parts count to something a bit easier. It'd still have eight waveforms and tap tempo, so it wouldn't exactly be under-specified, even like that! ;)
You could also build the Tremolomatic-x from stompboxology. I built two of them. They sound great. The project uses NE570 no need for LDRs. There was a PCB layout here way back when, it could be 10 years or more.
http://moosapotamus.net/files/stompboxology-mo-tremlo.pdf
Quote from: soggybag on June 16, 2019, 05:53:22 PM
You could also build the Tremolomatic-x from stompboxology. I built two of them. They sound great. The project uses NE570 no need for LDRs. There was a PCB layout here way back when, it could be 10 years or more.
http://moosapotamus.net/files/stompboxology-mo-tremlo.pdf
Thats a great resource, thank you!
Quote from: Joncaster on June 15, 2019, 07:55:36 AM
Hooray, I can source all the parts locally for your Anharmonic Trem, Sam.
I'll give that a try first, I think.
My current ability to import stuff (like a smallbear order) is severely limited by our import laws (max 3 shipments a year without a Code, and it's a heavy process to get a code).
Glad you found the schematic, etc.
Having looked over it again, there isn't much I'd change, except you might want to put antiparallel LEDs (i.e. clipping style) in parallel with the LFO depth control. This will stop the LFO clipping against the rails and might make it even quieter. Will also give you a cleaner square wave LFO at higher depth settings.
As always, I also suggest you breadboard it before heating up the soldering iron.
p.s. As someone else who grew up in the antipodes, I can empathise with your issues regarding shipping, etc.
Quote from: samhay on June 17, 2019, 06:25:01 AM
Glad you found the schematic, etc.
Having looked over it again, there isn't much I'd change, except you might want to put antiparallel LEDs (i.e. clipping style) in parallel with the LFO depth control. This will stop the LFO clipping against the rails and might make it even quieter. Will also give you a cleaner square wave LFO at higher depth settings.
As always, I also suggest you breadboard it before heating up the soldering iron.
p.s. As someone else who grew up in the antipodes, I can empathise with your issues regarding shipping, etc.
Thanks Sam!
Yeah i would definitely breadboard it first. I'll start getting it together soon.
Just checking: your latest schem is V1.3 (29/05/13), right?
I can also try that Tremolomatic-X from Stompology, but I can only find SOIC NE570's here, so that would need a SOIC/DIP adapter board (found one for about $1 here), and some patience, and possibly a smaller iron tip, my small chisel might be a bit clunky.
Yes, V1.3 seems to be the latest version.
In the meantime (ordering parts requires payday), I put a Heartthrob on the breadboard, to see if I could harmonic-ise it.
I just made two stages of the heartthrob, and did some crude Hi/Lo-pass inputs, and took either side of the BJT LFO modulator to each input.
Then I just tied each output via mixing resistors straight out.
I got somewhere at one point (it was actually sounding incredible for a second), and then it started sounding horrible...i think my little breadboard is possessed.
Tried a buffer input but haven't figured out the impedance relationship to the modulator yet, so that sounded loud and distorted and terrible.
I laid it out as a normal tremolo again, but still getting a little bit of distortion on louder chords, want to track that down first.
The preamp alone (LFO disconnected) sounds clean and fine.
Is that just the nature of BJT LFO modulators?
I'm wondering about slapping in a LED/LDR combo in place of the BJT, but at this point, I don't really know what i'm doing...so I'll have to see.
A bjt-modulator will add a bit of grit - you need to scale your input signal to the "sweet spot" where grit sounds bloomy but not yet distracting.
Imho the good way of dealing with the signal routing would be to buffer the input; split to a LP and a HP; into modulators; and into the summing/booster stage.
Which is what you already did? Imho you now just need to properly scale the signal levels across the input; modulator; and booster stages.
Quote from: bool on June 18, 2019, 07:14:21 AM
A bjt-modulator will add a bit of grit - you need to scale your input signal to the "sweet spot" where grit sounds bloomy but not yet distracting.
Imho the good way of dealing with the signal routing would be to buffer the input; split to a LP and a HP; into modulators; and into the summing/booster stage.
Which is what you already did? Imho you now just need to properly scale the signal levels across the input; modulator; and booster stages.
Thanks Bool,
I'll add in a input buffer again, I think I know where i went wrong the first time.
I'm sitting at work reading up, taking notes haha.
In terms of summing, I'll tack on another stage, but for my testing I've just done the Univibe thing for now.
Need a bigger breadboard...again.
Edit: disregard
My wife and I went to see Joey Landreth last night. It has awoken my interest in having a harmonic tremolo. I like effects that make chordal work more interesting, and harmonic tremolo is certainly one of those; certainly in his hands. He encored with the old Ry Cooder tune from Bop 'Til You Drop, "I Can't Win", in which his (Landreth's) use of harmonic tremolo figured heavily. To quote Roger Daltrey: "I want it, I want it, I want it".
Quote from: Mark Hammer on June 21, 2019, 06:19:56 PM
My wife and I went to see Joey Landreth last night. It has awoken my interest in having a harmonic tremolo. I like effects that make chordal work more interesting, and harmonic tremolo is certainly one of those; certainly in his hands. He encored with the old Ry Cooder tune from Bop 'Til You Drop, "I Can't Win", in which his (Landreth's) use of harmonic tremolo figured heavily. To quote Roger Daltrey: "I want it, I want it, I want it".
Mark - for some reason I thought you had a Chase Bliss Gravitas no? I love the harmonic trem on mine. But even sweeter is the hybrid mode - part normal part harmonic tremolo. Not DIY of course.
Actually, I wasn't aware it did that. Shame on me. :icon_redface:
Joey did that whole episode on harmonic Tremolo with That Pedal Show:
https://youtu.be/FDRHDy9GI-M
Was a cool episode.
I love the way he plays.
I kind of thought so, but didn't see a Gravitas on the pedalboard. He had a small-cab Victory amp head that I thought I overheard him telling someone during the soundcheck had a special pre-Blackface tremolo in it. I just figured it was that.
Here's a question for the more knowledgeable: does harmonic tremolo need to be reciprocal? That is, does the volume rise in one half of the signal need to be complemented by a drop in the other, or is the effect still likely to be pleasing if the two paths are simply wobbling in unsynced fashion?
If there are any commercial units that do that, I have not knowingly heard them.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on June 24, 2019, 06:35:24 PM
Here's a question for the more knowledgeable: does harmonic tremolo need to be reciprocal? That is, does the volume rise in one half of the signal need to be complemented by a drop in the other, or is the effect still likely to be pleasing if the two paths are simply wobbling in unsynced fashion?
If there are any commercial units that do that, I have not knowingly heard them.
I'm not sure that's a question of *knowledge*. That sounds like more of a question of *taste*.
We should try it. Do we like it? There's your answer...
The non-reciprocal version is only one LFO more complicated, and probably saves an inverting op-amp anyway, so there's really not a lot in it. As firmware, you could include both options - "standard" opposite phase outputs to drive the harmonic trem, or a "unrelated LFOs" version.
I asked because I thought I would go with the three-inverter-section LFO I see in the Anderton tremolo. I could get two independent LFOs from one 4049. Problem is, that doesn't leave any invertor sections to spare. So using two unsynced LFOs is available, as is using one. But using one LFO and inverting its output in order to countersweep is not readily available. I mean, it's certainly feasible, but I'd rather keep the footprint small - the basis for me using the 4049 instead of something requiring a bunch of larger-size electros.
I agree it's a question of taste. I've never knowingly heard an unsynced harmonic trem. If someone has heard it and it sounded so-so, great, or indistinguishable from synced, I'd like to know.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on June 24, 2019, 10:54:43 PM
If someone has heard it and it sounded so-so, great, or indistinguishable from synced, I'd like to know.
Well Mark, as my harmonic trem is now operating nicely on the breadboard, I can just throw another LFO at it and see :icon_twisted:
But as it's a completely BJT based thingamajig, it'll start getting a bit more cumbersome.
At least we can hear what it might sound like.
I would think it'd do a leslie type thing maybe.
Sounds pretty terrible, haha.
But I haven't delved too deep yet.
Ah well, we tried.