Unveiled this week at NAMM; Korg's Nu:Tekt OD-S overdrive pedal kit. Not sure that making your own pedal gets much easier than this.
They make a point of saying it's a solderless construction.
Not sure what the motive would be for a company like Korg to sell kits.
Perhaps:
- new employee who builds pedals convinces management to sell kits
- kits might get around product certifications in some counties ultimately making it cheaper,
that saving is on top of the saving in assembly (and testing) costs.
Bah. Reminds me of the AMDEK projects. All that is old is new again. At over $300 for a kit, don't think it'll be making that big of a splash with the DIY crowd. After all, we are notoriously cheap. At that price, I would be more inclined to go with Rob's first hypothesis.
Which reminds me... I have a brand new Amdek DMK-100 kit sitting in the box still awaiting assembly. :icon_rolleyes:
QuoteAt over $300 for a kit,
Ouch, not cheap.
Well, that's not DIY. That's a production end-line.
Quote from: bean on January 15, 2020, 08:58:51 PM
Well, that's not DIY. That's a production end-line.
Exactly!
"Okay, here's 100 fewer people we have to hire."
Actually Korg has a couple of Nu:Tekt products that snap together, including a NuTube headphone amp and a synth. They also hooked up with littleBits a few years ago to make snap-together synth modules. I guess it's for folks who want "the DIY experience" without the misery.
QuoteThey also hooked up with littleBits a few years ago to make snap-together synth modules.
Interesting, that makes the motives far more blurred.
QuoteWell, that's not DIY. That's a production end-line.
QuoteI guess it's for folks who want "the DIY experience" without the misery.
Somewhere between fake DIY and modern "engineering".
Quote from: Mark Hammer on January 15, 2020, 09:44:42 PM
I guess it's for folks who want "the DIY experience" without the misery.
I thought the misery was the whole point?
Quote from: tubegeek on January 15, 2020, 11:35:54 PM
I thought the misery was the whole point?
That's why I'm here for sure. I wouldn't build pedals if I didn't hate myself 8)
i concur i love the suffering and misery, its all part of the fun... 8)
as for the nu tube stuff, ive read a few reviews where they say they sound naff....(havent tried myself)
which may explain why they get others to build them .... :icon_mrgreen:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/23/c3/ec/23c3eca60d7dbb2eccc9447db2c7171f.jpg)
But who am I to judge? I finished 5 projects in the last two weeks, all of them on RTS boards and several in pre-drilled, powder-coated enclosures. And while I have a few more aspirational projects in the queue, the backlog of more-or-less paint-by-numbers stuff (including two of Nathan's, one of Dino's, etc.) is going to have to be worked through before I have the space, on the workbench or in the brain, for stretching out. So, if these kits grab someone's imagination, good on them, and maybe next they will graduate to a more complete DIY experience--this could be a fine gateway drug. I doubt very much any of the committed solder junkies around here will be trading their next eight Tayda/SmallBear/Mouser/Farnell/BLMS orders for one of these.
Quote from: vigilante397 on January 15, 2020, 11:52:41 PM
I wouldn't build pedals if I didn't hate myself 8)
Don't you mean "hurt myself"? ;D
Looks like the last 5 minutes of a 5 hour project, LOL.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on January 15, 2020, 09:44:42 PM
I guess it's for folks who want "the DIY experience" without the misery.
It's almost "the DIY experience" without the DIY. Like putting together something from IKEA that only has five parts. :icon_rolleyes: As Mike and Brian have suggested, it's just regular manufacturing with the last bit left to the consumer.
Having said that, I did "build" a couple of Amdek kits back in the day. But I didn't pay $300 for them...
There are gradations of DIY. Is working off a vero layout that someone else drew up and tested DIY? Is ordering a legended PCB or a parts kit with PCB and machined enclosure DIY, or does one have to design, etch and drill the board and machine/decorate the enclosure yourself? I do know that making a cake from a Duncan Hines mix gets me credit at social functions for a "home-made cake".
I grant that Korg has created a niche that makes DIY mere inches away from simply unboxing. At the same time, there may well be legal reasons for doing so, related to the phrase "Made in...". I know that Godin guitars maintains facilities on both sides of the US/Canada border precisely for those reasons, and recent trade negotiations regarding automobile manufacture had much to do with how much could be made in this country or that. Maybe completed products incur duties, or other hurdles, that to-be-assembled ones don't. I don't know this, I'm just speculating. I expect others here will have more informed legal opinions.
All of that said, those who do MORE themselves will get more credit than those who subcontract more out to others. I'll confess here that, in an effort to not spend time in a VERY cold garage, I order pre-drilled powder-coated enclosures from Tayda. But I do etch and drill my own boards, when I have a layout.
Quote from: vigilante397 on January 15, 2020, 11:52:41 PM
Quote from: tubegeek on January 15, 2020, 11:35:54 PM
I thought the misery was the whole point?
That's why I'm here for sure. I wouldn't build pedals if I didn't hate myself 8)
I've never heard it put better. It's like self-immolation without the sweet release of death.
Well...maybe that's going too far! But I do still burn myself every day with the soldering iron.
Quote from: Ben N on January 16, 2020, 04:40:38 AM
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/23/c3/ec/23c3eca60d7dbb2eccc9447db2c7171f.jpg)
cake! when did
yellow become a cake type, besides the uranium kind?
Didn't know IKEA invested in Korg?
NTS-1 digital KIT fx section sound demos are impressive ...
Quote from: tubegeek on January 15, 2020, 11:35:54 PM
Quote from: Mark Hammer on January 15, 2020, 09:44:42 PM
I guess it's for folks who want "the DIY experience" without the misery.
I thought the misery was the whole point?
I would just add one extra word, insecurity! That's how I feel went I hold the soldering gun (iron).
Back on topic though, I absolutely agree with the previously stated reasons for doing this. Kind of gets you a "Made in (whatever country you're in)" pedal, and Korg doesn't have to bother with testing for compliance, which I'm sure saves them time and money. The big question I'm having though, are they going to be selling this as a finished pedal as well, or is this "kit" the only way they're offering it? Because that makes the compliance testing argument even stronger.
Quote from: blacky on January 16, 2020, 11:26:48 AM
I would just add one extra word, insecurity! That's how I feel went I hold the soldering gun (iron).
Hold the cold end. RESPECT the hot end. Welcome!
This may be a way of avoiding FCC part 15 testing. If they are selling an item as a set of parts, none of the parts on their own will generate interference. The item shown appears to be exempt anyway because it is battery powered but I am not sure if it is exempt when it is powered by a wall wart supply. As already said, the tax and duties on a kit of components may be more favourable than for a completed item.
The Lotus Super 7 / Caterham 7 started as kit cars for tax reasons and became the most recognizable Lotus design around.
I want to hear that tube circuit. Anyone try it?
Quote from: aron on January 16, 2020, 01:44:25 PM
I want to hear that tube circuit. Anyone try it?
Sounds like there are demos on youtube, but my work computer doesn't like youtube so I haven't listened yet. I've been impressed by the NuTube stuff I've heard so far, but the pricetag (~$50 per tube) has prevented me from playing with them myself.
Quote from: tubegeek on January 16, 2020, 11:42:40 AM
Quote from: blacky on January 16, 2020, 11:26:48 AM
I would just add one extra word, insecurity! That's how I feel went I hold the soldering gun (iron).
Hold the cold end. RESPECT the hot end. Welcome!
Must have been Korg's response to these folks....
(https://i.redd.it/ltl9m989ft4x.jpg)
Quote from: aron on January 16, 2020, 01:44:25 PM
I want to hear that tube circuit. Anyone try it?
This is all I could find.
^ Well we know it sounds pretty crappy through someone's car speakers.
Quote from: willienillie on January 16, 2020, 03:21:12 PM
^ Well we know it sounds pretty crappy through someone's car speakers.
I don't get why someone would bother putting stuff like that on the net. I mean the youtube video, not the Korg kit, although I feel like going to shop on ebay for real cheap pedal.
QuoteI don't get why someone would bother putting stuff like that on the net. I mean the youtube video,
It could be worse, like unboxing videos or reaction videos ...
I wish there were re-boxing videos where you pack stuff up and send crap products back to the manufacturer.
:icon_lol: I would watch that!
But.... does it blend?
I think i'll stick to drilling slightly misaligned holes...
I have come to think that there is a definite line in the sand when it comes to DIY mentality.
Of the people I know and come into contact with, a small percentage are the "lets open this up, figure it out, fix it, then try build one" type.
That type of person isn't really divided into that many sub-categories (you're either of the DIY mindset or not, mostly)
The folks who want to build and create, want to do it on their own terms and have the benefit of saying "I built this"
The crowd that just want the stuff and want to send it in for repair when it breaks, selling/trading, they wouldn't even think of "hey, lets have at least a little bit of input in this thing, and build a little bit of it".
Those kinda people are more inclined to spec out custom work, get someone to make them just what they want and say "check out what I got built for me".
Generalized thoughts, I know...
I thought Korg were going to stick a nu-tube in everything - but the new SV-2 stage piano's tube drive is old fashioned 12AX7 based.
Quote from: Rob Strand on January 16, 2020, 10:31:18 PM
I wish there were re-boxing videos where you pack stuff up and send crap products back to the manufacturer.
That's hysterical! I love it!
Quote from: duck_arse on January 16, 2020, 08:32:32 AMcake! when did yellow become a cake type, besides the uranium kind?
Yellow Cake is butter and whole eggs.
White Cake is oil or lard and egg whites.
Martha Stewart's Yellow Cake:
1 cup (2 sticks) unsalted
butter1 3/4 cups sugar
4 large
eggs plus 2 large
egg yolks1 tablespoon pure vanilla extract
3 cups cake flour (spooned and leveled)
1 tablespoon baking powder
1/2 teaspoon fine salt
1 1/2 cups buttermilk
(Yes, the stuff in the box is none of the above. Corn-sugar, flour, soy-oil, and yellow dye.)
Thanks! :-)
Quote from: vigilante397 on January 16, 2020, 02:14:37 PM
Quote from: aron on January 16, 2020, 01:44:25 PM
I want to hear that tube circuit. Anyone try it?
Sounds like there are demos on youtube, but my work computer doesn't like youtube so I haven't listened yet. I've been impressed by the NuTube stuff I've heard so far, but the pricetag (~$50 per tube) has prevented me from playing with them myself.
Here's a couple of videos about the NuTube:
Buy a second hand pedal, tweak it. Done. 2000% more DIY than this.
Sounds like it was inspired teenage engineering's diy eurorack synths, which are basically just screwing modules into panels. I don't really mind it so long as it keeps costs down and people have fun (as seems to be true of the teenage engineering). Even if it might mislead people into thinking that diy is fun and easy haha...
But for $300 this is a bit insane... for 2/3 of the costs you can get those vox nutube amps which korg also makes :icon_rolleyes: So they're basically paying you $100 to get a poweramp instead of a footswitch
At least they do include the full schematic in the manual
I concur this is not DIY.
I can see how some folks would spend $300 on a toy for the weekend.They'd spend more on a t shirt.
I hasten to add I am not so fortunate to have met many but they exist.
Preferring to buy componants and associated tooling and stuff and turn them into a useable end product from raw materials. This satisfy me. The korg stuff would soon bore me.
Ho hum.......Not my turf
It is more of a paint by number Airfix type of model kit really.
QuoteHere's a couple of videos about the NuTube:
Korg are putting their money where their mouth is on this product. I saw some alternatives to tube technologies some 15 years ago or so; not DSP emulation but new devices that capture the physics of how a tube works. Interesting to see how it pans out sound-wise.
I was thinking thick-foam double sided tape might help reduce the microphonics but looking through the data they already suggest some sort of sponge.
I noticed the 12V circuit has a positive grid bias, where as a 80V it's negative like a tube.
Anyone know if grid looks open or like a diode when it's biased positively? The example circuits don't seem to limit the grid current.
The biggest problem with the Korg Nu-Tube for me is that I can buy a decent 12AX7 for £6 but a Nu-Tube is £50 plus vat. The footprint size is almost the same as well. Korg recommend rubber grommet mounting for vibration, double sided sticky backed foam ape is just a little too much Blue Peter for me.
QuoteThe biggest problem with the Korg Nu-Tube for me is that I can buy a decent 12AX7 for £6 but a Nu-Tube is £50 plus vat.
Yes not cheap. I suppose they are marketing to the HiFi people who seemingly have more money to burn.
The way it's made looks expensive. It is probably a lot bigger than it needs to be but at least it's flat. As to why it's that expensive I'm not too sure. On one hand it's new technology so the starting production volumes are low and it's technology that needs some tooling up, Both of these push-up the cost. On the other hand VFD tubes aren't *that* expensive. So perhaps at this early stage they are trying to recoup their investment with low production volumes and that means niche markets like HiFi. Maybe they have along term plan that tubes will get more expensive over time and there will be a point where the Nu-Tubes will be cheaper to produce and will fill the gap with a smaller price difference.
This future stuff is never easy to predict. Electric vehicles were quite developed in the 90s and they have edged their way in only recently. The only difference is now the technology is established and governments can force the issue by phasing out petrol vehicles.
IMHO, I have a feeling DSP emulation could win since it is cheap to produce.
When I see pics of some of the pedalboards that basement warriors and 2nd-tier bar band players flaunt (and that's not a criticism or dissing of them, merely a recognition that they are not multi-platinum world-touring performers with a villa on the coast and a place in the Hamptons), the idea of a $300 overdrive is surprisingly pedestrian, and not beyond the whims of many. It's certainly more than *I* would spend, but throwing another $300 at a pedalboard already worth $3000, is something more than enough players wouldn't bat an eyelash at. Strymon, Meris, Chase Bliss and others making pricier pedals are not going out of business anytime soon, despite how many $40 1590A minipedals we see around.
You could do a real DIY version of this if you use a VFD from a scrapped radio/clock/VCR or other items that used a VFD. These items are not that common as new items but are commonly scrapped and available either free or cheap. I have a number of Heathkits that I have built with complete documentation and step-by-step instructions and they are a level of DIY but on the sliding scale of box of parts -> Heathkit -> modules to fit together, this is the latter and it is not that far from the finished equipment.
QuoteYou could do a real DIY version of this if you use a VFD from a scrapped radio/clock/VCR or other items that used a VFD.
I believe someone already did that!
It's a long time since I've played with VFD displays but I remember the heaters needed to be AC so the brightness was even. The calculator displays have one or two common wires running across all the digits. I remember one of the larger brands (Noritake?) had excellent documentation on these things. You don't want heater AC getting into the audio so maybe each digits will end-up working slightly different with a DC heater.
[Edit: Here's one example but there's more out there,
https://www.instructables.com/id/VFD-Amplifier-a-Tube-Amp-From-VCR-Screens/
]
I almost wonder if they're charging so much for the nutube to avoid other brands using it in bad-sounding designs? To make sure we all have a good first impression of nutube haha... I mean korg's vox mv50 use nutube, and those things are only ~$250, so clearly they aren't actually that expensive for Korg to make
> I noticed the 12V circuit has a positive grid bias, where as a 80V it's negative like a tube. Anyone know if grid looks open or like a diode when it's biased positively?
It's such a terrible tube it hardly matters. The grid conducts dozens of uA, not a mA.
> The way it's made looks expensive.
It's real cheap. It is an obsolete product. Remember VCRs and microwaves and car radios with light-up displays which were not LEDs (or LCDs)? They were Vacuum Fluorescent. The old magic-eye tuning tube, but with hundreds of segments (laid-out to your spec, multiple colors). That's all gone out of style. Noritake was scrapping the factory. KORG apparently saved one production line from the landfill and printed a basic no-glow triode on it. IMHO it is a piece of junk at any price; worse at 2X-5X the price of a real dual triode.
The hi-fi guys do have a DIY project around it but clearly the main commercial market is guitar effects.
EDIT Actually Noritake still makes other displays, but the consumer appliance market collapsed. They have displays for gizmos. Recognize this glassware?
(https://www.noritake-elec.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/image-gu128x32-800b.png)
(https://www.noritake-elec.com/wp/wp-content/themes/noritakeelec/inc/part/operation/img/dmcut.gif)
https://www.noritake-elec.com/technology/general-technical-information/vfd-operation
QuoteThe grid conducts dozens of uA, not a mA.
I found some more detailed datasheets. There seems to many PDFs floating around each with different snippets of info in them.
QuoteRemember VCRs and microwaves and car radios with light-up displays which were not LEDs (or LCDs)? They were Vacuum Fluorescent.
I was quite familiar them in the 90's. At that time they were nice a bright and had nice colors. Good chance the documents I used in the past were Noritake.
QuoteIMHO it is a piece of junk at any price; worse at 2X-5X the price of a real dual triode.
Some compromises need to be made since these things run a lower power. Heater current is quite low.
The gain is pretty limited at 12V but things get a bit better at 80V. Shame they didn't try to squash the size down more.
The video mentions a microphonic "ping" I wonder's if that the mounting, the glass, or the suspended heater wire?
Quote from: Rob Strand on January 18, 2020, 08:45:45 PM
QuoteYou could do a real DIY version of this if you use a VFD from a scrapped radio/clock/VCR or other items that used a VFD.
I believe someone already did that!
It's a long time since I've played with VFD displays but I remember the heaters needed to be AC so the brightness was even. The calculator displays have one or two common wires running across all the digits. I remember one of the larger brands (Noritake?) had excellent documentation on these things. You don't want heater AC getting into the audio so maybe each digits will end-up working slightly different with a DC heater.
[Edit: Here's one example but there's more out there,
https://www.instructables.com/id/VFD-Amplifier-a-Tube-Amp-From-VCR-Screens/
]
One point they make in the instructables is that new VFD's were coming out long after the production of 12AX7 tubes had stopped. There are some new manufacturers of new 12AX7's now (along with a lot of output tubes), so the new tube business hasn't totally dried up. Besides, there are plenty of tubes still around. If you join an antique radio club or a ham radio club, you will find there is no shortage of tubes.
I have one radio at home which is a portable battery tube FM/AM radio (each descriptor there cuts out a lot of riff-raff!) that uses a 1M3/DM70 tuning eye tube as an audio inverter for a push-pull DL96 output stage.
The low light emission of the cathode of a VFD means the design is temperature-limited rather than space-charge limited so this has a noise penalty. With a temperature limited cathode, the operation of the tube depends on cathode temperature. With a space-charge limited cathode, you always have more emission than you need, so the noise level is lower.
A second demo of the Nutube-based OD-S.
I've heard a fair number of tube drive pedals, and I have to say that's probably the most bland sounding one I've heard :P
Quote from: vigilante397 on January 22, 2020, 10:39:36 PM
I've heard a fair number of tube drive pedals, and I have to say that's probably the most bland sounding one I've heard :P
So marketing wise its probably a good thing, since most guitarist play bland music ;)
Why can't some people pronounce soldering properly?
QuoteI've heard a fair number of tube drive pedals, and I have to say that's probably the most bland sounding one I've heard
It says a the end of the video it's recorded directly not through an amp. They don't mention an amp/speaker emulation. That's going to make the guitar sound samples pretty much useless to judge the pedal.
Quote from: vigilante397 on January 22, 2020, 10:39:36 PM
I've heard a fair number of tube drive pedals, and I have to say that's probably the most bland sounding one I've heard :P
Then you'll need to hear the Yamaha OD-100 Overdrive I have. Not tube-based, but without a doubt, one of the most characterless ODs I have ever heard. If it was a person, you'd be thinking "Oh dear lord, PLEASE don't sit next to me for this train/bus/plane ride!".
(https://images.reverb.com/image/upload/s--0ow_-NJq--/a_exif,c_limit,e_unsharp_mask:80,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_south,h_620,q_90,w_620/v1479335088/awd0222mpmvysnnp2ely.jpg)
Quote from: Rob Strand on January 23, 2020, 05:29:43 AM
It says a the end of the video it's recorded directly not through an amp. They don't mention an amp/speaker emulation. That's going to make the guitar sound samples pretty much useless to judge the pedal.
I do that with my tube pedals too. It doesn't sound as good as it would with a cabsim, but it doesn't sound awful.
Quote from: vigilante397 on January 22, 2020, 10:39:36 PM
I've heard a fair number of tube drive pedals, and I have to say that's probably the most bland sounding one I've heard :P
Maybe your dreadlocks aren't purple enough.
But more seriously, that's not a sound that requires any kind of "tube" to achieve. NuTube is a gimmick. Gotta have something to show off at NAMM.
QuoteI do that with my tube pedals too. It doesn't sound as good as it would with a cabsim, but it doesn't sound awful.
All directly recorded stuff sounds bad to me ;D
There's some good examples here, IIRC at one point he does a directly recorded Marshall amp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vRXQxdPmEM
(I don't agree with him saying a directly recorded signal is the "transparent" tone; that a very biased example.)
Quote from: willienillie on January 23, 2020, 02:35:50 PM
Quote from: vigilante397 on January 22, 2020, 10:39:36 PM
I've heard a fair number of tube drive pedals, and I have to say that's probably the most bland sounding one I've heard :P
Maybe your dreadlocks aren't purple enough.
But more seriously, that's not a sound that requires any kind of "tube" to achieve. NuTube is a gimmick. Gotta have something to show off at NAMM.
I don't know that NuTube is
necessary technology, but it is no more a gimmick than germanium transistors are. Whether or not tube-based drive pedals do anything more to a boosted signal than your plain vanilla op-amp, people seem to want tube-based drive pedals. But tubes produce heat, take up space, can be shattered, and work better on higher voltages that can be difficult or inconvenient to provide. For those who feel they need tubes, NuTube provides a solution and convenience.
If you want to solve the problem of tubes being shattered, use metal octal tubes or nuvistor triodes. Some of them work at reasonably low voltages. Some of the metal tubes have grid caps for that depression-era mojo (but you might have to find a way to lock the cap in position). You can get triodes, pentodes and pentagrid converters, some with remote cutoff so you can make a tremolo easily. Some triodes are provided with a pair of diodes using a common cathode with the triodes. You can get 6.3 and 12.6 volt heaters for most of them.
You can buy packaged power converters that take rectified heater voltage and produce high voltage for the tubes if you want to run them at normal values. That is, unless you want to go old school and use a vibrator supply or a dynamotor.
It is a lot easier to design with tubes that you can characterize as FET's with a tightly controlled Vp and Idss. The biggest advantage of tubes is their harmonic generation can be made to be very musical.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FYLW55Sf/Amptramp4k.gif) (https://postimg.cc/FYLW55Sf)
Happy 4,000!
> The biggest advantage of tubes is their harmonic generation can be made to be very musical.
WHEN worked in their happy-zone.
Because vacuum is a terrible conductor, this gets increasingly hard as voltage is reduced. At the 12V level often used, the NuTube needs all the help it can get from multiple opamps just to pass a signal, nevermind be happy. It's a gimmick. As you say, there are real tubes for almost any need, and can be worked at real voltages.
My Vox MV50-AC sounds good as you turn it up, surprisingly good for what is essentially a Class D amplifier, even if it doesn't threaten to quench my lust for a Real McCoy AC-15. Is this because of the Nutube? Maybe. And maybe one of us here could do just as well using one of the standard distortion topologies that we all know and love (including DIY commercial Vox simulators in pedal format from e.g. ROG and Bajaman, not to mention commercial products) tuned to cover an amp-like range and mate up with a 50 watt mono class D amp, and the choice of the Nutube preamp, while functionally valid, is driven more my marketing and surplus production capacity than by sonics. OK, whatever; I'll probably never know. I'll probably also never spend money on a Nutube for DIYing, for the reasons discussed here.