When I plug in the phase 90 I built, I just get a hissing sound while it's bypassed, and when I turn it on, I just get a very high pitched feedback noise. For the parts I substituted, instead of 2n5952s, I used 2n5457s, instead of 2n4125s, I used a 2n4126, and instead of a spst toggle switched i used a dpdt switch. and that's it. Here's my wiring and stuff:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wt6cHvgy/20210603-135618.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/wt6cHvgy)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XXZKntS8/20210603-135623.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XXZKntS8)
(https://i.postimg.cc/QH1pT5MK/20210603-135630.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QH1pT5MK)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mPSCdsCb/20210603-135634.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mPSCdsCb)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y4ngHzdZ/20210603-135644.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Y4ngHzdZ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FdYSskqR/20210603-135649.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FdYSskqR)
(https://i.postimg.cc/PCbzBZsn/20210603-135653.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PCbzBZsn)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xqWv8g9S/20210603-135700.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xqWv8g9S)
(https://i.postimg.cc/YhWxzZd9/20210603-135703.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YhWxzZd9)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wtV2sN0Q/20210603-135705.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/wtV2sN0Q)
(https://i.postimg.cc/TKvJ70sc/20210603-135708.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TKvJ70sc)
(https://i.postimg.cc/R3X10BZP/20210603-135716.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R3X10BZP)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Lh7Tf2Bw/20210603-135728.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Lh7Tf2Bw)
I did check continuity and stuff and it looks decent, and I don't know the voltages that the parts are supposed to be, and the only issues I can think of rn are just bad parts or something.
and here are the layouts i used.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0rpQGCpv/MXR-Phase-90-with-Script-Switch-Rev-3-2.png) (https://postimg.cc/0rpQGCpv)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kV0JKVGD/Offboard-wiring.png) (https://postimg.cc/kV0JKVGD)
and i do get 9v when the pedal is plugged it, and the led turns on and off when it should,
and i did check continuity between the transistor and IC legs, and where the sockets are soldered to the board and they are connected.
(https://i.imgur.com/vkVb1pT.jpg)
+1 what Antonis said. You've got lots of suspicious-looking blobs between the tracks.
Get a narrow flat screwdriver and run the blade along the groove between the tracks. You should be able to slide it all the way along. If you feel it "snag" on anything, you've got a problem you need to deal with. Many times the process of clearing the tracks like this is enough and the screwdriver alone will scrape away muck and bits of solder the are causing problems.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MX1L1j4L/Points-To-Check.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MX1L1j4L)
This is the part where I recommend giving the solder side a wee bit of a scrub using a toothbrush and some methyl hydrate to dissolve the solder flux. Flux is good, but it can also make it more difficult to spot solder bridges. If I have a board that is rather cramped, I'll do this first, to make visual inspection easier.
Apart from that, always good to confirm the pinouts of transistors from their specific manufacturers. This is especially true of FETs.
Is this better?
(https://i.postimg.cc/8f8G3sr9/20210603-152924.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8f8G3sr9)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ppHxJhvn/20210603-152929.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ppHxJhvn)
now when its turned off, it lets the full signal through without a hiss, but now when its on it makes a continuous popping sound, and the speed knob turns it on or off.
Does the rate of popping vary with the speed setting?
a little bit i think
Quote from: snow123 on June 03, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Is this better?
(https://i.postimg.cc/8f8G3sr9/20210603-152924.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8f8G3sr9)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ppHxJhvn/20210603-152929.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ppHxJhvn)
This looks a bit suspect - along with the general area in the middle.
Same question, different build :D : Voltages on semiconductors?
(https://i.postimg.cc/6yqnGNRg/Screen-Shot-2021-06-04-at-5-38-13-pm.png) (https://postimg.cc/6yqnGNRg)
Quote from: snow123 on June 03, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Is this better?
It's *better*, and from your report it's working better too, but there's still far too much muck between those traces, and that's reflected in the fact that although it's doing more, it's not working right.
Get the rubbish scraped out from between those tracks so there's clear daylight between one row of solder and the next.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tRMHHwy2/bluelined-wire.jpg)
I think the wire indicated is one row low, and grounding signal.
Quote from: ElectricDruid on June 04, 2021, 05:15:27 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 03, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Is this better?
It's *better*, and from your report it's working better too, but there's still far too much muck between those traces, and that's reflected in the fact that although it's doing more, it's not working right.
Get the rubbish scraped out from between those tracks so there's clear daylight between one row of solder and the next.
how would i do that without damaging the tracks?
Desoldering braid or pump -> Copper brush -> Solder reflowing
Quote from: snow123 on June 04, 2021, 04:03:35 PM
how would i do that without damaging the tracks?
Just drag the end of a narrow screwdriver *between* the tracks. I use a small electrical screwdriver because the blade is the perfect size, but anything about right will do. It won't damage the tracks because it's not going down the tracks, it's going down the gaps *between* the tracks, and there shouldn't be anything there.
If you find you bump into something, something's up and that's when you need to move in with desoldering braid or a desoldering pump and remove a bit of solder so things can pass easily. Usually that's when the joints are too "blobby" - too much solder.
Better?
(https://i.postimg.cc/1gDWFPWh/20210604-142639.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1gDWFPWh)
(https://i.postimg.cc/tsKS77NN/20210604-142646.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tsKS77NN)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pmhc2Kzd/20210604-142652.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pmhc2Kzd)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FdQBC1fH/20210604-142704.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FdQBC1fH)
A small metal saw blade (6-8 mm height) of 0.8mm thicknes will do perfect job.. :icon_wink:
now when i turn it on, it lets through a bit of a weaker dry signal.
Quote from: snow123 on June 04, 2021, 05:28:37 PM
Better?
(https://i.postimg.cc/1gDWFPWh/20210604-142639.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1gDWFPWh)
It still needs to be cleaner. Even a small spot across tracks can be a problem on vero - see marked-up image. The tracks in between conductive strips should not have anything in them at all.
The areas with big black marks etc are still concerning. There's a lot to clean-up.
As others have said, scrape it clean with small screwdriver. Sometimes a reflow with the soldering iron and flux is also needed before you can do this. It's really difficult (near impossible) to scape off solder that's overflowed across tracks. If you have isopropyl alcohol (99% alcohol) give it a light spray afterwards and a clean with a toothbrush just to be sure.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KRjCzJWP/Screen-Shot-2021-06-05-at-12-00-15-pm.png) (https://postimg.cc/KRjCzJWP)
I hope this is an improvement
(https://i.postimg.cc/sMwmbhyT/20210604-203009.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sMwmbhyT)
(https://i.postimg.cc/94sdjPkY/20210604-203016.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/94sdjPkY)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fk40YrNf/20210604-203023.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Fk40YrNf)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1n6pRnhh/20210604-203026.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1n6pRnhh)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xkXv7p6d/20210604-203031.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xkXv7p6d)
actually the signal just comes out as more distorted but quieter, not weaker.
Quote from: snow123 on June 05, 2021, 12:05:50 AM
actually the signal just comes out as more distorted but quieter, not weaker.
Still haven't seen any voltages. It'a guessing game without them. ;)
After using the blade/screwdriver between the tracks, I use a stiff, dry toothbrush to polish it up and remove the last bits of crud that I can't see. Any discolouration of the solder at this point should be reflowed.
I'm lucky to have an extremely powerful dissecting scope that really shows how dirty vero can become. One little bit of crud left over is all it takes to break the circuit
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 05, 2021, 01:32:05 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 05, 2021, 12:05:50 AM
actually the signal just comes out as more distorted but quieter, not weaker.
Still haven't seen any voltages. It'a guessing game without them. ;)
i have the multimeter on 200 DCV with the black probe to ground and the red probe to the legs/pins, and i used a battery snap that plugs into the dc jack for powering the circuit.
transistor voltages: (Q1-Q4 are 2n5457s instead of 2n5952)
Q1
D = 8.1
S = 8.2
G = .9
Q2
D= 8.1
S= 8.2
G= .9
Q3
D = 8.1
S = 8.2
G = .9
Q4
D= 8.1
S= 8.2
G= went from .8 to .9 and stayed at .9
Q5 (2N4126 instead of 2n4125)
C = 4.8
B = 5.2
E = 8.2
ICs (top to down)
IC1 (top)
P1 = 8.3
P2 = 8.3
P3 = switched between 8.0 and 8.1
P4 = 0.0
P5 = 8.0
P6 = 8.3
P7 = 8.3
P8 = switched between 9.0 and 9.1
IC2 (middle)
P1 = switched between 8.2 and 8.3
P2 = 8.3
P3 = 8.0
P4 = 0.0
P5 = 8.0
P6 = 8.3
P7 = switched between 8.2 and 8.3
P8 = 9.0
IC3 (bottom)
P1 = switched between 8.2 and 8.3
P2 = switched between 8.2 and 8.3
P3 = 5.6
P4 = 0.0
P5 = randomly switched between 6.5, 6.6, 6.7, and 6.8
P6 = 6.9
P7 = switched between 6.5, 6.6, 6.7, 6.8, 6.9, 7.0, 7.1, 7.2, 7.3, 7.4, 7.5, 7.6, 7.7, 7.8, 7.9, 8.0, 8.1, 8.2, and 8.3
P8 = 9.0
D1 (5v1 zener)
Anode = 5.4
Cathode = 8.1
Hello
Those voltages are pretty off - compare to this http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/pdf/ggg_p90_instruct.pdf
Check your biasing first, and see what's happening there. Sometimes it's good to pull the IC's etc out and see what's happening without them (voltage where it should not be)
how would i check my biasing tho
ok, when i took out the ics i got this:
Q1 - Q4 voltages:
D = 8.3
S = 8.5
G = 3.9
Q5 voltages:
C = .7
B = .9
E = 8.5
Quote from: snow123 on June 05, 2021, 11:56:15 PM
ok, when i took out the ics i got this:
Q1 - Q4 voltages:
D = 8.3
S = 8.5
G = 3.9
Q5 voltages:
C = .7
B = .9
E = 8.5
What voltages are you getting in the empty sockets? I'd check for continuity across the tracks - good chance you still have issues as you have voltage where it doesn't belong.
Is D1 definitely a 5.1 zener?
Quote from: snow123 on June 05, 2021, 11:39:33 PM
how would i check my biasing tho
What's the voltage across the 250K trimmer R22, or equivalently between the legs of C6/10uF?
It should be 5.1V because D2 is a 5.1V zener diode that sets the bias, but on yours it looks like it's over 8V, so something's up.
(Note I'm using part names from http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/pdf/ggg_p90_sc.pdf - I don't know if the the perf layout renamed things or not).
im pretty sure the vero layout im using is based on this tonepad schematic/pcb: http://www.tonepad.com/project.asp?id=7
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 06, 2021, 03:13:41 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 05, 2021, 11:56:15 PM
ok, when i took out the ics i got this:
Q1 - Q4 voltages:
D = 8.3
S = 8.5
G = 3.9
Q5 voltages:
C = .7
B = .9
E = 8.5
What voltages are you getting in the empty sockets? I'd check for continuity across the tracks - good chance you still have issues as you have voltage where it doesn't belong.
Is D1 definitely a 5.1 zener?
wait i just realized i accidentaly desoldered d1's anode lmao
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 06, 2021, 03:13:41 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 05, 2021, 11:56:15 PM
ok, when i took out the ics i got this:
Q1 - Q4 voltages:
D = 8.3
S = 8.5
G = 3.9
Q5 voltages:
C = .7
B = .9
E = 8.5
What voltages are you getting in the empty sockets? I'd check for continuity across the tracks - good chance you still have issues as you have voltage where it doesn't belong.
Is D1 definitely a 5.1 zener?
ok these are the IC socket voltages without the op amps in them
IC1 (top)
P1 = 0.0
P2 = 0.0
P3 = 4.2
P4 = 0.0
P5 = 4.2
P6 = 0.0
P7 = 0.0
P8 = 9.0
IC2 (middle)
P1 = 0.0
P2 = 0.0
P3 = 4.2
P4 = 0.0
P5 = 4.2
P6 = 0.0
P7 = 0.0
P8 = 9.0
IC3 (bottom)
P1 = 0.0
P2 = 0.0
P3 = 2.9
P4 = 0.0
P5 = 3.2/3.3
P6 = 0.0
P7 = 1.4
P8 = 9.0
Quote from: ElectricDruid on June 06, 2021, 04:50:27 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 05, 2021, 11:39:33 PM
how would i check my biasing tho
What's the voltage across the 250K trimmer R22, or equivalently between the legs of C6/10uF?
It should be 5.1V because D2 is a 5.1V zener diode that sets the bias, but on yours it looks like it's over 8V, so something's up.
(Note I'm using part names from http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/pdf/ggg_p90_sc.pdf - I don't know if the the perf layout renamed things or not).
with the black probe on ground, all the transistors and op amps in the sockets, and the trimpot maxed out, heres the trimpot voltages:
fixed end 1: 4.2
fixed end 2: 0.0
variable end: 4.2
and i am using a battery snap for voltages and stuff so voltages might be a little off
when i put the DMM on diode test mode and put both probes on D1 i get about 1.71 volts.
btw i did fix d1's solder joint lol right after i mentioned it
Any photos of the board from above showing all components?
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 08, 2021, 04:24:58 AM
Any photos of the board from above showing all components?
(https://i.postimg.cc/dh8qqpR3/20210608-133714.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dh8qqpR3)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9D3mHC7s/20210608-133718.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9D3mHC7s)
(https://i.postimg.cc/v1bGDhXz/20210608-133722.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/v1bGDhXz)
Quote from: snow123 on June 06, 2021, 03:00:31 PM
IC3 (bottom)
P1 = 0.0
P2 = 0.0
P3 = 2.9
P4 = 0.0
P5 = 3.2/3.3
P6 = 0.0
P7 = 1.4
P8 = 9.0
The pin 3 and pin 5 voltages look wrong. The second pair of phase shift stages are the same as the first pair based around IC2, so we'd expect to see the same voltages, e.g. pins 3 and 5 both at 4.2V (compare with your previous IC2 readings). But for some reason this socket isn't giving those readings.
You should have a careful look around that chip and the associated components and see if you can spot anything; wrong values, wrong component, component wrong way around, bad joint, short between tracks, bit of muck, etc etc.
HTH
i think i should note that i already used all of the 47nf caps and all of the tl072s before..
and the 250k trimpot
And I just swapped out some of the 47nf's with new ones.
Here's the wiring and stuff:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MMnc3JHs/20210608-180903.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MMnc3JHs)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vx94M7Wf/20210608-180908.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vx94M7Wf)
(https://i.postimg.cc/N9ZKWCrQ/20210608-180914.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N9ZKWCrQ)
now the pedal does add a bit more gain, and when i flip the switch to the down postition, it adds a bit more treble
so im thinking the op amps are the issue
Quote from: snow123 on June 08, 2021, 09:11:43 PM
so im thinking the op amps are the issue
and the soldering to a degree
it basically seems like the circuit is doing everything except the phaser thing
and i just tried it with 4558s (since i dont have any other tl072s that dont have any solder on them or anything) and nothings changed.
Quote from: snow123 on June 08, 2021, 09:20:01 PM
it basically seems like the circuit is doing everything except the phaser thing
Time to get out your probe ;D try pin 1 and 7 (amplifier outs) on the opamps, bearing in mind that one is a LFO and will not carry audio signal.
Read the Phase 90 analysis on electro smash. Ignore the maths.... Just try and get an idea of what is happening and where. This might help your fault finding.
on q1-q3s drain, its just sorta a glitchy version of my dry signal, and on the source and gate of q1, 2, and 3, its just a high pitched feedback noise, and on all legs of q4 its just high pitched feedback.
Quote from: snow123 on June 09, 2021, 12:20:47 AM
on q1-q3s drain, its just sorta a glitchy version of my dry signal, and on the source and gate of q1, 2, and 3, its just a high pitched feedback noise, and on all legs of q4 its just high pitched feedback.
well its a high pitched feedback when im not playing
(top) ic1:
P1 = weird feedback when not playing, weird low volume and glitchy dry sig when playing.
P7 = sorta a very weak tremolo effect
(middle) ic2:
P1 = same as ic1 p1
P7 = just a very weak dry signal
(bottom) ic3:
P1 = also a very weak dry sig
P7 = quiet, rapid popping effect
The IC at the bottom - left hand side is the input buffer. The right hand side is the LFO.
You should be getting a nice clean signal off pin 1, as that's the output from the buffer. If you aren't, the rest of the circuit has no chance of working.
It's basically two signal paths combining at the transistor q5. One is the clean signal from the buffer, the other is phased - which is also fed from the buffer before the phasing happens.
Quote from: snow123 on June 08, 2021, 09:30:15 PM
(since i dont have any other tl072s that dont have any solder on them or anything)
You use sockets, don't you..??
(how comes solder on ICs..??)
Quote from: antonis on June 09, 2021, 05:19:08 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 08, 2021, 09:30:15 PM
(since i dont have any other tl072s that dont have any solder on them or anything)
You use sockets, don't you..??
(how comes solder on ICs..??)
i previously used those ICs before without sockets.
Quote from: snow123 on June 09, 2021, 01:55:55 PM
i previously used those ICs before without sockets.
Some wealthy guys claim that unsoldered semiconductors are NOT reusable.. :icon_wink:
How does everything here look tho?
(https://i.postimg.cc/RWGFKht6/20210609-122811.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RWGFKht6)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z9RqcmPf/20210609-122819.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Z9RqcmPf)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0Mhrj4wV/20210609-122825.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0Mhrj4wV)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FfBHC6Dh/20210609-122832.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FfBHC6Dh)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HVDVCfHx/20210609-122841.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HVDVCfHx)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CnyLSf3t/20210609-122845.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CnyLSf3t)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7bTfdqFd/20210609-122848.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7bTfdqFd)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kk3v65HB/20210609-122853.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Kk3v65HB)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dZd3y9Rw/20210609-122900.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dZd3y9Rw)
(https://i.postimg.cc/JsR0sZsC/20210609-122903.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JsR0sZsC)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gnVrcNkK/20210609-122910.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gnVrcNkK)
this is what i mean by ic 1, 2, and 3 btw.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mPMxW5Lb/Inked-MXR-Phase-90-with-Script-Switch-Rev-3-3-LI.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mPMxW5Lb)
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 09, 2021, 02:52:33 AM
The IC at the bottom - left hand side is the input buffer. The right hand side is the LFO.
You should be getting a nice clean signal off pin 1, as that's the output from the buffer. If you aren't, the rest of the circuit has no chance of working.
It's basically two signal paths combining at the transistor q5. One is the clean signal from the buffer, the other is phased - which is also fed from the buffer before the phasing happens.
do you mean like pin 1 for all of the ics? and do you mean that like all of ic3 is the input buffer or just p1-p4? the way you phrased it is kinda confusing for me.
Quote from: snow123 on June 09, 2021, 03:30:24 PM
How does everything here look tho?
Sorry but many tracks seem to be shorted.. :icon_cry:
Quote from: antonis on June 09, 2021, 03:39:26 PM
Quote from: snow123 on June 09, 2021, 03:30:24 PM
How does everything here look tho?
Sorry but many tracks seem to be shorted.. :icon_cry:
can you point out where?
Quote from: snow123 on June 09, 2021, 03:50:21 PM
can you point out where?
Of course I can but it's useless if you can't find them out.. :icon_wink:
PLz take a desolder pump and clear ALL tracks..!!
(by ALL I mean ALL OF THEM..)
Make sure there isn't even the slightest smear of solder between tracks..
(ckeck for continuity between neighbour tracks before and after each cut..)
Then, apply a smal amount of solder onto ONLY items legs pads..
(do not bridge pads of the same track with extra solder..)
Better?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Yh6TCyG8/20210609-143844.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Yh6TCyG8)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8fW9WZyp/20210609-143848.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8fW9WZyp)
(https://i.postimg.cc/LYGGnc3Q/20210609-143852.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LYGGnc3Q)
(https://i.postimg.cc/t7VLLg9K/20210609-143855.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/t7VLLg9K)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3d5P7HRd/20210609-143857.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3d5P7HRd)
FYI there is some extra solder and some super glue on some of the tracks to prevent them from rising and falling apart.
Quote from: snow123 on June 09, 2021, 03:38:01 PM
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 09, 2021, 02:52:33 AM
The IC at the bottom - left hand side is the input buffer. The right hand side is the LFO.
You should be getting a nice clean signal off pin 1, as that's the output from the buffer. If you aren't, the rest of the circuit has no chance of working.
It's basically two signal paths combining at the transistor q5. One is the clean signal from the buffer, the other is phased - which is also fed from the buffer before the phasing happens.
do you mean like pin 1 for all of the ics? and do you mean that like all of ic3 is the input buffer or just p1-p4? the way you phrased it is kinda confusing for me.
OK, to clarify,
IC3 - the bottom one. Pin 1 is the output of one side of the opamp (it's a dual opamp, each side having their own inputs and outputs). Pin 1 is the output of the input buffer.
The other side of IC3 is the LFO (low frequency oscillator), which sets the speed of the phasing.
Apart from the LFO, every IC should have audio coming out of pin 1 and 7. The Phase 90 is a four stage phaser, meaning the signal is phased 4 x times. That's what's happening on the other opamps. Signal is travelling through the opamps, being phased along the way and then mixed back in with clean signal at the end (clean signal coming from the buffer).
Note the diagram below, and study up on how to read schematics, as otherwise fault finding will be really hard, and you will never have any idea on what's happening.
Pin 4 should be 0v as it's ground on every IC, and pin 8 on every IC should be getting 9v
(https://i.postimg.cc/kVYxTNM1/Introduction-to-TL072-1.gif) (https://postimg.cc/kVYxTNM1)
now nothing will get through the circuit when i turn it on
Quote from: snow123 on June 09, 2021, 06:20:56 PM
now nothing will get through the circuit when i turn it on
wait im an idiot i had the in/out jacks reversed lol
the high pitched feedback on the transistors is fixed now!
Quote from: snow123 on June 09, 2021, 06:23:29 PM
the high pitched feedback on the transistors is fixed now!
wait thats only when the switch is down, which is when its on sw1, and based on the audio probe testing ive did, that probably means something is wrong in the output stage of the circuit.
idk if that made sense lol
Quote from: snow123 on June 09, 2021, 05:40:58 PM
FYI there is some extra solder and some super glue on some of the tracks to prevent them from rising and falling apart.
This comment is scary ;)
I have to say that I'm not sure we're going to be able to help you fix this. Perhaps there's more going on that you're not showing us, but from here, it doesn't feel like you're doing a step-by-step logical debugging process. Instead, you show us the board, we make a few comments, and then you rework the whole thing (thereby reducing any progress made thus far to zero) and then you post more photos and we start all over again.
If you think this board is worth saving (and the comment quoted above makes me very sceptical of that) then you need to start at the beginning and work through it one step at a time, not moving onto the next part until you have the previous part fixed. First you need the input buffer working, and you need clean audio at the output of that stage. Then you do the first phase shift stage, and you get clean audio at the output of that stage. Then you do the second stage, until you have clean audio at the output of that, etc etc until you arrive at the final mixer. Nothing else is going to work. You can't debug a phase shift stage at the end of the chain if you don't know what it's being fed. Say it buzzes; you don't know whether that's a fault in that stage, or if the buzz comes from earlier in the circuit.
Sorry, but without a strict and rigorous process, you don't stand a chance.
I'd be inclined to start with a fresh veroboard and build the circuit again one step at a time. Build the buffer first. Get that working. Then add a phase stage, get that working, and so on. Like this, if/when something goes wrong, you only have a small part of the circuit to check.
Quote from: ElectricDruid on June 10, 2021, 06:10:16 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 09, 2021, 05:40:58 PM
FYI there is some extra solder and some super glue on some of the tracks to prevent them from rising and falling apart.
This comment is scary ;)
I have to say that I'm not sure we're going to be able to help you fix this. Perhaps there's more going on that you're not showing us, but from here, it doesn't feel like you're doing a step-by-step logical debugging process. Instead, you show us the board, we make a few comments, and then you rework the whole thing (thereby reducing any progress made thus far to zero) and then you post more photos and we start all over again.
If you think this board is worth saving (and the comment quoted above makes me very sceptical of that) then you need to start at the beginning and work through it one step at a time, not moving onto the next part until you have the previous part fixed. First you need the input buffer working, and you need clean audio at the output of that stage. Then you do the first phase shift stage, and you get clean audio at the output of that stage. Then you do the second stage, until you have clean audio at the output of that, etc etc until you arrive at the final mixer. Nothing else is going to work. You can't debug a phase shift stage at the end of the chain if you don't know what it's being fed. Say it buzzes; you don't know whether that's a fault in that stage, or if the buzz comes from earlier in the circuit.
Sorry, but without a strict and rigorous process, you don't stand a chance.
I'd be inclined to start with a fresh veroboard and build the circuit again one step at a time. Build the buffer first. Get that working. Then add a phase stage, get that working, and so on. Like this, if/when something goes wrong, you only have a small part of the circuit to check.
tbh i think i did get semi started on a step by step trouble shooting, 'cause i did start testing the input stage and figured the issue is in the output stage.
and i dont really know to get past the highlighted areas in this schem:
(https://i.postimg.cc/D4V9MqXj/MXR-phase-90-cdr-Google-Chrome-6-10-2021-3-12-17-PM-2-LI.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/D4V9MqXj)
'cause i cant really find anything like that on the vero layout..
Quote from: snow123 on June 10, 2021, 06:19:15 PM
and i dont really know to get past the highlighted areas in this schem:
(https://i.postimg.cc/D4V9MqXj/MXR-phase-90-cdr-Google-Chrome-6-10-2021-3-12-17-PM-2-LI.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/D4V9MqXj)
'cause i cant really find anything like that on the vero layout..
If you can't look at the schematic and find the parts on the layout, this build is too complex for you to fault find. Note that the 50n capacitors (0.05 on your schem) are 47n on the layout. 50n used to be common, now replaced by 47n caps.
Start small and get your skills together, then work your way up to something like this (and bigger)
now when i probe the areas i have highlighted here, it creates a very glitchy scream type sound. and when i probe the other end of that 22k resistor i get a clean signal, and when i probe ic1s pin1 i get that same glitchy sound.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MXCJp5RH/Inked-MXR-Phase-90-with-Script-Switch-Rev-3-2-LI.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MXCJp5RH)
and the signal may have started to die on ic1s p5&p6, 'cause if i go probing on the 22k near there i still get nothing
Deleted....
Quote from: snow123 on June 11, 2021, 12:06:43 AM
and the signal may have started to die on ic1s p5&p6, 'cause if i go probing on the 22k near there i still get nothing
The FETs are acting as variable resistors - ignore them when tracing the audio signal. Read the non-math parts of this to understand https://www.electrosmash.com/mxr-phase90
ok, so i think the 22k resistor (on sw1) is causing the weird distortion, 'cause when i have the sw1 on, i get that weird distortion and when it isnt on i dont get it.
ok, i think i probed the whole thing and i couldnt hear a full phaser effect once.
im thinking the issue might be the zener diode or the 2n4126, or both.
Measure Zener voltage (Red probe to Cathode and Black probe ot Anode) and replace 2N4126 with any general purpose p-n-p amplifier BJT, like 2N3906..
Quote from: antonis on June 11, 2021, 05:17:55 PM
Measure Zener voltage (Red probe to Cathode and Black probe ot Anode) and replace 2N4126 with any general purpose p-n-p amplifier BJT, like 2N3906..
i dont have any other general purpose pnps lol
Quote from: antonis on June 11, 2021, 05:17:55 PM
Measure Zener voltage (Red probe to Cathode and Black probe ot Anode) and replace 2N4126 with any general purpose p-n-p amplifier BJT, like 2N3906..
and do i put the DMM on diode test mode or 200 DCV?
wait i think i have the polarity of d1 reversed lol
5 pages for "potentially" reverse place diode..
(we're on the right track all right..)
Quote from: antonis on June 11, 2021, 05:45:59 PM
5 pages for "potentially" reverse place diode..
(we're on the right track all right..)
i switch to polarity and i got about 6.9v with the trimpot at 0
Quote from: snow123 on June 11, 2021, 06:05:31 PM
Quote from: antonis on June 11, 2021, 05:45:59 PM
5 pages for "potentially" reverse place diode..
(we're on the right track all right..)
i switch to polarity and i got about 6.9v with the trimpot at 0
before doing that i got about 4.2v
now when i plug it in the signal severely distorts and almost sounds like a super fuzz.
If this helps here's one of the zener diodes I'm using,
(https://i.postimg.cc/wyHGkCTb/20210611-153155.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/wyHGkCTb)
now i think i just have the wrong value zener, creating that weird super fuzz like distortion.
ok, i just got some new tl072s and zener diodes, and i swapped the op amps and diode out and ima go test it
I JUST GOT 4.8V FROM THE DIODE
i just turned on the pedal and it just let through a quieter signal, no distortion!
so thats 1 issue fixed, but im still not getting a phase effect at all.
so should i check voltages again or probe it?
i guess ill do voltages 'cause that makes the most sense to me.
Q1
D = 4.7
S = 4.8
G = .5
Q2
D = 4.7
S = 4.8
G = .5
Q3
D = 1.2
S = 4.8
G = .5
Q4
D= 4.7
S= 4.8
G= .5
Q5
C = 3.2
B = 3.6
E = 4.8
ICs:
IC1 (top)
P1 = 2.1, 3.4, 3.5, 3.6
P2 = 4.8
P3 = 4.7
P4 = 0.0
P5 = voltages are too inconsistent
P6 = 2.8, 2.9
P7 = 3.2
P8 = 8.9
IC2 (middle)
P1 = 3.5
P2 = 3.4
P3 = 3.4, 3.5
P4 = 0.0
P5 = 3.6
P6 = 3.5
P7 = 3.8, 3.9
P8 = 8.9
IC3 (bottom)
P1 = 4.8
P2 = 4.8
P3 = 3.2, 3.3
P4 = 0.0
P5 = 3.0
P6 = 4.5, 4.6, 4.7, 4.7
P7 = 2.0, 2.1
P8 = 8.9
tbh i think ill redo the circuit on a new veroboard, but this time 1 step at a time. and how would i do it one step at a time? like would i do the all of the jumper wires and the offboard wiring and then the stuff for the input buffer or what?
Quote from: snow123 on June 13, 2021, 11:09:11 PM
tbh i think ill redo the circuit on a new veroboard, but this time 1 step at a time. and how would i do it one step at a time? like would i do the all of the jumper wires and the offboard wiring and then the stuff for the input buffer or what?
Before you tackle this again, try some simpler circuits to get your soldering skills up, and your understanding of schematics / how things work.
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 14, 2021, 12:01:24 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 13, 2021, 11:09:11 PM
tbh i think ill redo the circuit on a new veroboard, but this time 1 step at a time. and how would i do it one step at a time? like would i do the all of the jumper wires and the offboard wiring and then the stuff for the input buffer or what?
Before you tackle this again, try some simpler circuits to get your soldering skills up, and your understanding of schematics / how things work.
This....This is a fairly complex circuit on Vero for a novice. I didn't see any mention of your JFets, are they matched?
Quote from: jimilee on June 14, 2021, 09:50:07 PM
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 14, 2021, 12:01:24 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 13, 2021, 11:09:11 PM
tbh i think ill redo the circuit on a new veroboard, but this time 1 step at a time. and how would i do it one step at a time? like would i do the all of the jumper wires and the offboard wiring and then the stuff for the input buffer or what?
Before you tackle this again, try some simpler circuits to get your soldering skills up, and your understanding of schematics / how things work.
This....This is a fairly complex circuit on Vero for a novice. I didn't see any mention of your JFets, are they matched?
i think so yea
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 14, 2021, 12:01:24 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 13, 2021, 11:09:11 PM
tbh i think ill redo the circuit on a new veroboard, but this time 1 step at a time. and how would i do it one step at a time? like would i do the all of the jumper wires and the offboard wiring and then the stuff for the input buffer or what?
Before you tackle this again, try some simpler circuits to get your soldering skills up, and your understanding of schematics / how things work.
ok, im building a bluesbreaker pedal rn, and ive already built a buffer.
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 14, 2021, 12:01:24 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 13, 2021, 11:09:11 PM
tbh i think ill redo the circuit on a new veroboard, but this time 1 step at a time. and how would i do it one step at a time? like would i do the all of the jumper wires and the offboard wiring and then the stuff for the input buffer or what?
Before you tackle this again, try some simpler circuits to get your soldering skills up, and your understanding of schematics / how things work.
but how exactly would i do the circuit 1 stage at a time?
Quote from: snow123 on June 15, 2021, 05:07:17 PM
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 14, 2021, 12:01:24 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 13, 2021, 11:09:11 PM
tbh i think ill redo the circuit on a new veroboard, but this time 1 step at a time. and how would i do it one step at a time? like would i do the all of the jumper wires and the offboard wiring and then the stuff for the input buffer or what?
Before you tackle this again, try some simpler circuits to get your soldering skills up, and your understanding of schematics / how things work.
but how exactly would i do the circuit 1 stage at a time?
First look at the schematic, and compare it to the layout that you are using. Map out the parts in your head, or write them down on top of a print out of the layout, maybe highlight sections.
A bluesbreaker is pretty simple. Things to do;
- check that you have 9v to pin 8, and 0v on pin 4 of the opamp
- make sure you have vref, which is half the supply voltage. (look for the point where 2 x 47k resistors join, on the schem / layout)
- build the first section, make sure you have level coming in on pin 3, and level out on pin 1. You should also have level from the 220n cap.
- build the second section, check that you have level coming in on pin 6 and out off pin 7 of the opamp
- the rest is just some passive filtering and the volume control
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 15, 2021, 05:49:15 PM
Quote from: snow123 on June 15, 2021, 05:07:17 PM
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 14, 2021, 12:01:24 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 13, 2021, 11:09:11 PM
tbh i think ill redo the circuit on a new veroboard, but this time 1 step at a time. and how would i do it one step at a time? like would i do the all of the jumper wires and the offboard wiring and then the stuff for the input buffer or what?
Before you tackle this again, try some simpler circuits to get your soldering skills up, and your understanding of schematics / how things work.
but how exactly would i do the circuit 1 stage at a time?
First look at the schematic, and compare it to the layout that you are using. Map out the parts in your head, or write them down on top of a print out of the layout, maybe highlight sections.
A bluesbreaker is pretty simple. Things to do;
- check that you have 9v to pin 8, and 0v on pin 4 of the opamp
- make sure you have vref, which is half the supply voltage. (look for the point where 2 x 47k resistors join, on the schem / layout)
- build the first section, make sure you have level coming in on pin 3, and level out on pin 1. You should also have level from the 220n cap.
- build the second section, check that you have level coming in on pin 6 and out off pin 7 of the opamp
- the rest is just some passive filtering and the volume control
how do i check if the signal is going through without doing any offboard wiring?
you need to use an audio probe, which I think you have
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 16, 2021, 12:42:41 AM
you need to use an audio probe, which I think you have
how do i power the circuit if i just have the input buffer done tho
You have to have the power portion of the circuit on the board, including the voltage divider for vref.
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 16, 2021, 01:17:22 AM
You have to have the power portion of the circuit on the board, including the voltage divider for vref.
The power supply and Vref is probably the very first bit to get done, because then you can check you've got 9V to the PCB, and can check you've got a sensible 4.5V Vref. If that alters later on, then you know you've made a mistake somewhere (shorts will often drag these voltages down lower than they should be).
do i also have to connect the circuit to ground and/or the switch? or just the 9v and input?
Excuse me but what are you talking about..?? :o
Quote from: antonis on June 16, 2021, 04:03:03 PM
Excuse me but what are you talking about..?? :o
My thoughts exactly.
I thought you knew how to use an audio probe? Didn't we go over this in your other build thread?
Quote from: snow123 on June 16, 2021, 03:46:29 PM
do i also have to connect the circuit to ground and/or the switch? or just the 9v and input?
You need +9V and ground connected for the power, and the input and output both need the signal wire and the ground connected too. All voltages are relative to some other level. That's usually ground, but it doesn't have to be - witness the "Vref" or "virtual ground" we often have in stompbox circuits, where the voltage is referenced to a 4.5V level.
I'd leave the footswitch out until you've got the board running.
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on June 16, 2021, 04:14:40 PM
Quote from: antonis on June 16, 2021, 04:03:03 PM
Excuse me but what are you talking about..?? :o
My thoughts exactly.
I thought you knew how to use an audio probe? Didn't we go over this in your other build thread?
i know how to use an audio probe, im just asking if i have to connect the circuit to ground and/or the switch to test the power and input buffer stage. or if the probe already ground the circuit or something. just making sure im doing everything right.
Quote from: snow123 on June 16, 2021, 04:44:20 PM
i know how to use an audio probe, im just asking if i have to connect the circuit to ground and/or the switch to test the power and input buffer stage. or if the probe already ground the circuit or something. just making sure im doing everything right.
Oh okay.
As long as the switch is just a bypass switch you can do with or without it when it comes to probing a circuit - as long as you've got signal on the circuit's input. You will need the input plugged in or else you wouldn't have a signal to track with the probe. The circuit does need to be powered with your 9v(with ground). I mean, I'm sure it'll work via your amplifier's ground through the probe but that's not how it should be. You must properly power your circuit for it to function as intended. Improper ground could lead to odd behavior and wonky readings. Mostly noise issues.
Plug in the circuit just as you should - minus the output since you're using an audio probe instead of it's main output.
Make sure the probe's ground is connected to your circuit's ground.
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on June 16, 2021, 05:04:52 PM
Quote from: snow123 on June 16, 2021, 04:44:20 PM
i know how to use an audio probe, im just asking if i have to connect the circuit to ground and/or the switch to test the power and input buffer stage. or if the probe already ground the circuit or something. just making sure im doing everything right.
Oh okay.
As long as the switch is just a bypass switch you can do with or without it when it comes to probing a circuit - as long as you've got signal on the circuit's input. You will need the input plugged in or else you wouldn't have a signal to track with the probe. The circuit does need to be powered with your 9v(with ground). I mean, I'm sure it'll work via your amplifier's ground through the probe but that's not how it should be. You must properly power your circuit for it to function as intended. Improper ground could lead to odd behavior and wonky readings. Mostly noise issues.
Plug in the circuit just as you should - minus the output since you're using an audio probe instead of it's main output.
Make sure the probe's ground is connected to your circuit's ground.
ok, thanks.
I'm confused - didn't you say that it's now working in this thread, before these recent posts?
https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=127366.0
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on June 16, 2021, 05:04:52 PM
As long as the switch is just a bypass switch you can do with or without it when it comes to probing a circuit - as long as you've got signal on the circuit's input.
In most true bypass pedals, bypass mode will ground the circuit's input. So you can't do without the bypass switch - the pedal must be engaged not bypassed.
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 16, 2021, 06:24:34 PM
I'm confused - didn't you say that it's now working in this thread, before these recent posts?
https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=127366.0
i was building a bluesbreaker pedal, and i had a minor issue with it, and fixed it.
is it normal for the signal to start to die at the 470k resistor? and im not getting any signal out of p1 or 2 on ic3.
Quote from: snow123 on June 16, 2021, 07:50:02 PM
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 16, 2021, 06:24:34 PM
I'm confused - didn't you say that it's now working in this thread, before these recent posts?
https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=127366.0
i was building a bluesbreaker pedal, and i had a minor issue with it, and fixed it.
So you're back to talking about the phase 90? I thought you got this working too?
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 16, 2021, 09:29:26 PM
Quote from: snow123 on June 16, 2021, 07:50:02 PM
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 16, 2021, 06:24:34 PM
I'm confused - didn't you say that it's now working in this thread, before these recent posts?
https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=127366.0
i was building a bluesbreaker pedal, and i had a minor issue with it, and fixed it.
So you're back to talking about the phase 90? I thought you got this working too?
no i didnt, i just restarted building it, like i got a new veroboard and stuff to rebuild the circuit stage by stage
Quote from: snow123 on June 16, 2021, 09:37:46 PM
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 16, 2021, 09:29:26 PM
Quote from: snow123 on June 16, 2021, 07:50:02 PM
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 16, 2021, 06:24:34 PM
I'm confused - didn't you say that it's now working in this thread, before these recent posts?
https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=127366.0
i was building a bluesbreaker pedal, and i had a minor issue with it, and fixed it.
So you're back to talking about the phase 90? I thought you got this working too?
no i didnt, i just restarted building it, like i got a new veroboard and stuff to rebuild the circuit stage by stage
i just took your advice and finished a much simpler pedal (that i already built but wasnt working) than the phase 90.
Quote from: snow123 on June 16, 2021, 09:05:50 PM
is it normal for the signal to start to die at the 470k resistor? and im not getting any signal out of p1 or 2 on ic3.
If you mean along this path, then no it should not. The red line is the clean signal path (noting that it exits pin 1).
(https://i.postimg.cc/XBjMPr1B/clean-signal-path.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XBjMPr1B)
ok, i just swapped out the tl072 with a new one and it now no longer sounds like the signal is dying, so do i do the rest of the clean signal path or start building the phase shifting stage?
Quote from: snow123 on June 17, 2021, 12:00:58 AM
ok, i just swapped out the tl072 with a new one and it now no longer sounds like the signal is dying, so do i do the rest of the clean signal path or start building the phase shifting stage?
This is harder than a Bluesbreaker to build step by step - and generally just harder to make.
If you have clean signal coming out of the buffer, you could do the rest of the output stage if you wanted to. You will need to have a very firm understanding of the schematic against the layout to have any chance of building this stage by stage. JFETS can also be pesky things with odd pinouts and inconsistent performance.
There's;
an input buffer (opamp)
an output / mixer stage that blends clean and phased signals (the transistor)
1 x oscillator (the LFO)
4 x phasing stages using JFETS
+ the power section
Explaining how to go through this stage by stage is a bit more than I can commit to right now, and I still think you need to learn a bit more and improve your soldering. ;) Fingers crossed you have better luck this time.
Referring again to http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/pdf/ggg_p90_sc.pdf (http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/pdf/ggg_p90_sc.pdf) - although this is shown with all single op-amps, and your vero layout shows duals, so ignore the IC pin numbers.
Start with the power supply components: D1, R16, C6, D2, R22 trim. Step One!
Do the buffer IC1, R1, C1, R2.
If you've got good solid sound coming from pin 1 of your dual op-amp, the buffer is working. Hooray! Step Two.
Do the output mixer transistor: R27, Q5, R26, R28, C9, R29, R30. That completes the output stage, and you should have signal at the output end of R30. That's Step Three. R24 feeds in the signal from the phase stages, so we'll add that later.
After that, we can start work on the phase stages. But I've given you a lot to do there already, since you'll have to work out which component on the schematic refers to which component on the vero layout - but that's all good schematic reading practice. Take it steady and you'll get it.
when i probe the collector of the 3906 (instead of the 2n4125) and both ends of the 47nf cap it creates a weird glitchy sound. is that normal?
Is that glitchy sound also present at the Base of 2N3906, too..??
Quote from: antonis on June 17, 2021, 04:08:39 PM
Is that glitchy sound also present at the Base of 2N3906, too..??
nope, i get a clean dry signal at the base.
i just resoldered the socket (there was some pretty suspicious areas), and replaced the 47n cap in that area, and now on the collector and on 1 side of the 47n cap, theres a much louder, less weak sounding glitchy-fuzz type sound getting out, and on the other side of the cap that signal gets much weaker. granted and i am just using the probe as an output rather than soldering the output to the circuit. but idk if that would affect the type of signal that gets out.
Quote from: snow123 on June 17, 2021, 05:26:41 PM
i just resoldered the socket (there was some pretty suspicious areas), and replaced the 47n cap in that area, and now on the collector and on 1 side of the 47n cap, theres a much louder, less weak sounding glitchy-fuzz type sound getting out, and on the other side of the cap that signal gets much weaker. granted and i am just using the probe as an output rather than soldering the output to the circuit. but idk if that would affect the type of signal that gets out.
and the signal on the base of q5 is still clean without any distortion
Ok, let's have a look at the voltages. It sounds like the transistor isn't happy with its biasing.
What have you got for the power supply and Vref voltages? What have you got at pins B, C, E on the transistor?
Quote from: ElectricDruid on June 18, 2021, 06:45:57 AM
Ok, let's have a look at the voltages. It sounds like the transistor isn't happy with its biasing.
What have you got for the power supply and Vref voltages? What have you got at pins B, C, E on the transistor?
q5 voltages:
C = 0.0
B = 4.3
E = 4.8
Quote from: snow123 on June 18, 2021, 08:05:32 PM
Quote from: ElectricDruid on June 18, 2021, 06:45:57 AM
Ok, let's have a look at the voltages. It sounds like the transistor isn't happy with its biasing.
What have you got for the power supply and Vref voltages? What have you got at pins B, C, E on the transistor?
q5 voltages:
C = 0.0
B = 4.3
E = 4.8
0 on the collector is not right. Check for shorts to ground. Photos?
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 19, 2021, 05:34:37 PM
Quote from: snow123 on June 18, 2021, 08:05:32 PM
Quote from: ElectricDruid on June 18, 2021, 06:45:57 AM
Ok, let's have a look at the voltages. It sounds like the transistor isn't happy with its biasing.
What have you got for the power supply and Vref voltages? What have you got at pins B, C, E on the transistor?
q5 voltages:
C = 0.0
B = 4.3
E = 4.8
0 on the collector is not right. Check for shorts to ground. Photos?
(https://i.postimg.cc/5XVM2RzW/20210619-151040.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5XVM2RzW)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fVfQtf7t/20210619-151058.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fVfQtf7t)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5jXJ7vJT/20210619-151102.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5jXJ7vJT)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FfF5jkGP/20210619-151105.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FfF5jkGP)
You don't have the 56k resistor going to the collector on the board - add that and you should get it going.
What's going on with the two electrolytic caps next to D1? Are they in series, and what values are you using? They would have to be 47u and 22u to equal approx 15u as asked for on the layout.
If you plan on building a few pedals, get a cheap breadboard or make a test rig so you can work on it not attached to an enclosure and switching. It will make your life a lot easier ;)
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 19, 2021, 08:52:21 PM
You don't have the 56k resistor going to the collector on the board - add that and you should get it going.
What's going on with the two electrolytic caps next to D1? Are they in series, and what values are you using? They would have to be 47u and 22u to equal approx 15u as asked for on the layout.
If you plan on building a few pedals, get a cheap breadboard or make a test rig so you can work on it not attached to an enclosure and switching. It will make your life a lot easier ;)
those 2 electrolytics are in series (10uf+4.7uf) for the 15uf cap
Quote from: snow123 on June 19, 2021, 10:10:59 PM
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 19, 2021, 08:52:21 PM
You don't have the 56k resistor going to the collector on the board - add that and you should get it going.
What's going on with the two electrolytic caps next to D1? Are they in series, and what values are you using? They would have to be 47u and 22u to equal approx 15u as asked for on the layout.
If you plan on building a few pedals, get a cheap breadboard or make a test rig so you can work on it not attached to an enclosure and switching. It will make your life a lot easier ;)
those 2 electrolytics are in series (10uf+4.7uf) for the 15uf cap
10u and 4.7 in parallel will get you close to 15u. The values you have used in series works out to just over 3u.
Capacitors in series and parallel work differently to resistors.
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 19, 2021, 11:31:34 PM
Quote from: snow123 on June 19, 2021, 10:10:59 PM
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 19, 2021, 08:52:21 PM
You don't have the 56k resistor going to the collector on the board - add that and you should get it going.
What's going on with the two electrolytic caps next to D1? Are they in series, and what values are you using? They would have to be 47u and 22u to equal approx 15u as asked for on the layout.
If you plan on building a few pedals, get a cheap breadboard or make a test rig so you can work on it not attached to an enclosure and switching. It will make your life a lot easier ;)
those 2 electrolytics are in series (10uf+4.7uf) for the 15uf cap
10u and 4.7 in parallel will get you close to 15u. The values you have used in series works out to just over 3u.
Capacitors in series and parallel work differently to resistors.
i just replaced the 10+4.7uf with a 47+22uf in series and added the 56k, and now the output signal at the other end of the 47n is still kinda distorted and stuff, but it doesnt sound like the signal is dying at all.
the glitchy signal i had at the collector of q5 now goes to the other end of the 47n thats going to the output, without dying at all i guess.
The electrolytic capacitor value is a red herring. While having a value that's a bit wrong would change things marginally, that's not why the transistor isn't working.
Your soldering still leaves something to be desired. What *is* that black muck all over the board?!? ;) Are you using plumber's flux and solder or something? (I did when I started because I didn't have anything else and it gave a similar looking result). If you are, get some decent cored solder intended for electronic use.
I've said it before but it bears repeating because it's clear from the pictures that you haven't done it: run a screwdriver blade down the gaps between the tracks! Get that muck cleared out!
There's one or two bits that look like shorts to me, but you'll find them easily when the screwdriver blade bumps into them.
Quote from: ElectricDruid on June 21, 2021, 05:18:12 AM
The electrolytic capacitor value is a red herring. While having a value that's a bit wrong would change things marginally, that's not why the transistor isn't working.
Your soldering still leaves something to be desired. What *is* that black muck all over the board?!? ;) Are you using plumber's flux and solder or something? (I did when I started because I didn't have anything else and it gave a similar looking result). If you are, get some decent cored solder intended for electronic use.
I've said it before but it bears repeating because it's clear from the pictures that you haven't done it: run a screwdriver blade down the gaps between the tracks! Get that muck cleared out!
There's one or two bits that look like shorts to me, but you'll find them easily when the screwdriver blade bumps into them.
i think im using flux covered solder from my local hobby shop.
wait is vref the 10uf electrolytic cap?
ok, it turns out i didnt have the rest of the output mixer stage soldered or anything and only the highlighted clean signal in the diagram thing andy posted. and thats why the collector and capacitor was making weird noises, i just fixed it so now i have a clean signal coming from the output.
so now do i build the phase shifting stage or the LFO?
ok, taking a better look at the schematic, it looks like i should do the phase shifting stage first. and i think ill just do it 1 transistor stage at a time i guess.
i just built the first transistor stage (the area highlighted in the image below), and im not getting anything the the first transistor, but i am getting a clean signal on p1-p3 of the opamp. is this normal?
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wdq20Gf2/Inkedmxr-phase-90-shifting-stage-LI.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Wdq20Gf2)
and how can i find out what sounds what parts are supposed to make when probed? kinda like a chart of what sounds transistors and stuff are supposed to make when probed.
like this i guess:
q5:
c = clean signal
b = weird distorted sound
e = slightly boosted clean sig
etc...
that kinda thing with most of the parts on the circuit.
Quote from: snow123 on June 21, 2021, 02:15:53 PM
ok, it turns out i didnt have the rest of the output mixer stage soldered or anything and only the highlighted clean signal in the diagram thing andy posted. and thats why the collector and capacitor was making weird noises, i just fixed it so now i have a clean signal coming from the output.
Oh. That was just to show the signal path, not all of the parts required for that signal path to work. Sorry if that was not clear.
Make sure you have the entire power supply on the board at this stage if you haven't already.
What you should hear is really simple.
Clean input on the first stage, and then every stage after that the sound is slightly more phased than the previous. Outputs being pin 1 and 7. Don't bother trying to listen to the LFO.
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 21, 2021, 10:29:46 PM
Quote from: snow123 on June 21, 2021, 02:15:53 PM
ok, it turns out i didnt have the rest of the output mixer stage soldered or anything and only the highlighted clean signal in the diagram thing andy posted. and thats why the collector and capacitor was making weird noises, i just fixed it so now i have a clean signal coming from the output.
Oh. That was just to show the signal path, not all of the parts required for that signal path to work. Sorry if that was not clear.
Make sure you have the entire power supply on the board at this stage if you haven't already.
What you should hear is really simple.
Clean input on the first stage, and then every stage after that the sound is slightly more phased than the previous. Outputs being pin 1 and 7. Don't bother trying to listen to the LFO.
so that means i should be getting a signal on that transistor even if i only have what i highlighted soldered?
and i stop getting any signal on the end of the 22k resistor thats going to q1s source.
Quote from: snow123 on June 21, 2021, 10:57:30 PM
and i stop getting any signal on the end of the 22k resistor thats going to q1s source.
The JFETS are not part of the signal chain, think of them as a variable resistor, related phasing, but not passing audio.
You should have audio signal on the + & - inputs of every opamp in the phasing section, and signal on the outputs as well.
So literally audio on every pin, excluding 4 & 8 (ground and 9v respectively)
the signal starts to lose alot of volume on p7 of ic1. is that normal??
Quote from: snow123 on June 22, 2021, 07:25:19 PM
the signal starts to lose alot of volume on p7 of ic1. is that normal??
Which op-amp are you using? The schematic is for singles, but the layout you showed is for duals.
If you're using duals, as per the layout, and you've only done the first phase shift stage, you'll only have signal on half the op-amp. I'd expect pins 5, 6,and 7 to have nothing since they're not connected yet. In fact, if you've got any signal there at all, that's possibly a fault.
Quote from: ElectricDruid on June 23, 2021, 08:50:50 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 22, 2021, 07:25:19 PM
the signal starts to lose alot of volume on p7 of ic1. is that normal??
Which op-amp are you using? The schematic is for singles, but the layout you showed is for duals.
If you're using duals, as per the layout, and you've only done the first phase shift stage, you'll only have signal on half the op-amp. I'd expect pins 5, 6,and 7 to have nothing since they're not connected yet. In fact, if you've got any signal there at all, that's possibly a fault.
This is what I have on the circuit
(https://i.postimg.cc/R3pQ2ZNG/20210623-110815.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R3pQ2ZNG)
Quote from: ElectricDruid on June 23, 2021, 08:50:50 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 22, 2021, 07:25:19 PM
the signal starts to lose alot of volume on p7 of ic1. is that normal??
Which op-amp are you using? The schematic is for singles, but the layout you showed is for duals.
If you're using duals, as per the layout, and you've only done the first phase shift stage, you'll only have signal on half the op-amp. I'd expect pins 5, 6,and 7 to have nothing since they're not connected yet. In fact, if you've got any signal there at all, that's possibly a fault.
and the layout is based on this tonepad schematic, not the electrosmash page. im just using the electrosmash analysis page to easily narrow down where i should be probing and stuff.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QVwnnsPj/tonepad-phase90-1.png) (https://postimg.cc/QVwnnsPj)
Tonepad layout has no relevance to your own one..!! :icon_wink:
Quote from: antonis on June 23, 2021, 03:50:40 PM
Tonepad layout has no relevance to your own one..!! :icon_wink:
wdym by that? the only 3 things that make it differ from the layout is the .05uf caps (which are the 47nf caps on the layout) and the 1n914 (which doesnt exist on the layout), and the 47uf electrolytic filter cap that exists on the layout but not on the schematic. im just saying thats the schematic the layout is based on 'cause on the comments of the page on got the layout from (here: http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2014/05/mxr-phase-90-with-script-switch.html), the author said the the tonepad schem is what the layout is based on.
Quote from: snow123 on June 23, 2021, 04:30:00 PM
Quote from: antonis on June 23, 2021, 03:50:40 PM
Tonepad layout has no relevance to your own one..!! :icon_wink:
wdym by that
I think he doesn't realize you are following the tagboard layout since you're building it up section at a time. In their defense, the layout is 8 pages back. In your defense, tagboard usually doesn't include schematics.
Carry on.
Quote from: snow123 on June 23, 2021, 04:30:00 PM
the only 3 things that make it differ from the layout is the .05uf caps (which are the 47nf caps on the layout) and the 1n914 (which doesnt exist on the layout), and the 47uf electrolytic filter cap that exists on the layout but not on the schematic. im just saying thats the schematic the layout is based on 'cause on the comments of the page on got the layout from (here: http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/2014/05/mxr-phase-90-with-script-switch.html), the author said the the tonepad schem is what the layout is based on.
Alack!! :o
Quote from: snow123 on June 22, 2021, 07:25:19 PM
the signal starts to lose alot of volume on p7 of ic1. is that normal??
can we go back to how there is a big volume drop on p7 of ic1. and i posted a pic of what i have on the board on the previous page.
Dude, you're confusing us.
First off, Is there any signal on either input pin of that side of the dual opamp?
The tagboard layout doesn't have reference for IC numbers. In that tonepad schematic, that side of the IC is the lfo. LFO is low frequency oscillator. In fact, it's so low you can't hear it. The point of this oscillator is to control the jfets to swing the resistance between the source and drain pins.
The fact that I don't see the lfo circuit on your board means IC1, pin 7 to you isn't the same thing as the schematic we're apparently referencing.
Ontop of that, you've gone beyond building this in sections so there are more possible implications.
Add the LFO so that you can control the jfets. Once you have signal on the output of the first phase stage (what I assume in IC1, pin 7 to you) you can go ahead and build the next three stages. Once that's good, add the feedback resistor and build the rest of the output.
There are breakdowns on the internet that may help you view the schematic in a modular format. I think it's on electrosmash.
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on June 23, 2021, 07:31:14 PM
Dude, you're confusing us.
First off, Is there any signal on either input pin of that side of the dual opamp?
The tagboard layout doesn't have reference for IC numbers. In that tonepad schematic, that side of the IC is the lfo. LFO is low frequency oscillator. In fact, it's so low you can't hear it. The point of this oscillator is to control the jfets to swing the resistance between the source and drain pins.
The fact that I don't see the lfo circuit on your board means IC1, pin 7 to you isn't the same thing as the schematic we're apparently referencing.
Ontop of that, you've gone beyond building this in sections so there are more possible implications.
when looking at the layout, this is how im mentioning ic numbers, this is what i mean: ic1 is the top one, ic 2 is the middle one, and ic 3 is the bottom one.
Quote from: snow123 on June 23, 2021, 07:57:53 PM
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on June 23, 2021, 07:31:14 PM
Dude, you're confusing us.
First off, Is there any signal on either input pin of that side of the dual opamp?
The tagboard layout doesn't have reference for IC numbers. In that tonepad schematic, that side of the IC is the lfo. LFO is low frequency oscillator. In fact, it's so low you can't hear it. The point of this oscillator is to control the jfets to swing the resistance between the source and drain pins.
The fact that I don't see the lfo circuit on your board means IC1, pin 7 to you isn't the same thing as the schematic we're apparently referencing.
Ontop of that, you've gone beyond building this in sections so there are more possible implications.
when looking at the layout, this is how im mentioning ic numbers, this is what i mean: ic1 is the top one, ic 2 is the middle one, and ic 3 is the bottom one.
its much easier refer to certain ics that way than using the tonepad schematics ic numbers 'cause the tonepads ic1/2/3a/b are inconsistent with the vero layout im using.
You need to follow the input signal to find where it's getting squashed. It sounds like you're tracing it starting at the output. Imagine if I phoned a mechanic and asked why my car broke down on the way to work without any insight of what came before, just " it won't run, tell me why now"
You've got it in front of you. Trace from the start and tell us where it goes poof. Or better, try to come up with your own conclusions. That way you learn.
The point of the audio probe is to start from the beginning of the guitar signal and find the problem area. You can comprehend the schematic and the output pin of an opamp, you can correctly follow the signal.
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on June 23, 2021, 08:17:51 PM
You need to follow the input signal to find where it's getting squashed. It sounds like you're tracing it starting at the output. Imagine if I phoned a mechanic and asked why my car broke down on the way to work without any insight of what came before, just " it won't run, tell me why now"
You've got it in front of you. Trace from the start and tell us where it goes poof. Or better, try to come up with your own conclusions. That way you learn.
The point of the audio probe is to start from the beginning of the guitar signal and find the problem area. You can comprehend the schematic and the output pin of an opamp, you can correctly follow the signal.
i am starting from the input, and the signal starts to lose alot of volume at p7 of ic1(which is highlighted below), which is the output of the other side of ic1. and everything is working properly before that. and im also asking if thats normal, 'cause the signal does change alot when going through the phasing circuit, and i was told that was normal (it was pretty minor changes in the sound) so im asking if this big volume drop on p7 is normal or an issue that needs to be fixed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1VBkX0q0/Inked-MXR-Phase-90-with-Script-Switch-Rev-3-50-LI.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1VBkX0q0)
This is definitely a problem. Mine doesn't drop in level at this stage.
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 24, 2021, 12:04:22 AM
This is definitely a problem. Mine doesn't drop in level at this stage.
i just did the rest of the phasing stage and the volume went back to normal, and the volume is good on p7 of ic2. maybe it was 'cause i just didnt have have q5, the 22k feedback resistor or the 47uf electrolytic on the circuit.
and since its time to to the LFO stage, how would i test it since i shouldnt bother with testing the audio?
At this point in time, if everything is passing audio as it should, you should hear the phasing sweep and change speed with changes made to the pot. You should also see a slight variation of voltage on the output of that op amp.
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 24, 2021, 02:06:17 AM
At this point in time, if everything is passing audio as it should, you should hear the phasing sweep and change speed with changes made to the pot. You should also see a slight variation of voltage on the output of that op amp.
ok, i just did that and everything seems good and i wired everything up and when i turned it on, it didnt do anything, so it seems like the input isnt going to/through the actual effect but only going through the clean signal part of the circuit.
So use it as ta transparent buffer and let the rest of the circuit be as it is..
Quote from: snow123 on June 23, 2021, 08:42:59 PM
i am starting from the input, and the signal starts to lose alot of volume at p7 of ic1(which is highlighted below), which is the output of the other side of ic1. and everything is working properly before that. and im also asking if thats normal, 'cause the signal does change alot when going through the phasing circuit, and i was told that was normal (it was pretty minor changes in the sound) so im asking if this big volume drop on p7 is normal or an issue that needs to be fixed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1VBkX0q0/Inked-MXR-Phase-90-with-Script-Switch-Rev-3-50-LI.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1VBkX0q0)
You're *not* starting from the input, and that's probably why you're having trouble.
The input buffer op-amp looks to me like pins 1-3 of what you're calling IC3 (the bottom one). The other half of this is the LFO.
Then the signal seems to go up the left hand side (IC2 then IC1) and then back down the right hand side (IC1 then IC2).
Your signal should go from IC3 pin 1 to IC2 pin 1 to to IC1 pin 1, then to IC1 pin 7, then IC2 pin 7.
(Please, anyone else step in if I've got this wrong - I hate tracing stripboard layouts. A proper schematic is so much easier!)
You're currently testing something miles away from where the signal went in, and you went and built all the phase stages at once, despite us having told you to make sure you get one working before you move onto the next. This lack of method in your work is what's holding you back.
(edit: mis-numbered some op-amps)
You'll have inconsistent results between phase stages if you didn't match the jfets. Without the LFO they'll be "stuck" - for lack of a better word. Any differences between the devices would probably be more obvious when probing. So is it actually volume loss, or is the jfet different enough to cause a dramatic change in the signal?
Thought that would be worth mentioning - though not to confuse the current conversation.
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on June 24, 2021, 03:31:28 PM
You'll have inconsistent results between phase stages if you didn't match the jfets. Without the LFO they'll be "stuck" - for lack of a better word. Any differences between the devices would probably be more obvious when probing. So is it actually volume loss, or is the jfet different enough to cause a dramatic change in the signal?
Thought that would be worth mentioning - though not to confuse the current conversation.
i fixed the volume loss, i was just missing a few parts in the area. but now that i did the LFO and all of the extra wiring, when i plug the pedal in, it just goes through the input buffer without going into the actual phase shifting circuit. basically, the pedal doesnt do the phasey thing when i turn it on.
Quote from: snow123 on June 24, 2021, 04:02:49 PM
i fixed the volume loss, i was just missing a few parts in the area. but now that i did the LFO and all of the extra wiring, when i plug the pedal in, it just goes through the input buffer without going into the actual phase shifting circuit. basically, the pedal doesnt do the phasey thing when i turn it on.
Try to adjust the trimpot, see if the effect comes to life.
Turn the speed low and use your multimeter on the voltage setting to monitor the output of the LFO - so the gate pins (pins 1) of the jfets that connects to the 3.9M resistor. If you're not seeing the voltage swing then your lfo isn't working and there's an error. If it is working and you've verified that the guitar signal is making it through all phase stages, then your jfets would be suspect. Sadly they are one of the more commonly counterfeited parts. Not to scare you! Just a warning.
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on June 24, 2021, 04:16:54 PM
Quote from: snow123 on June 24, 2021, 04:02:49 PM
i fixed the volume loss, i was just missing a few parts in the area. but now that i did the LFO and all of the extra wiring, when i plug the pedal in, it just goes through the input buffer without going into the actual phase shifting circuit. basically, the pedal doesnt do the phasey thing when i turn it on.
Try to adjust the trimpot, see if the effect comes to life.
Turn the speed low and use your multimeter on the voltage setting to monitor the output of the LFO - so the gate pins (pins 1) of the jfets that connects to the 3.9M resistor. If you're not seeing the voltage swing then your lfo isn't working and there's an error. If it is working and you've verified that the guitar signal is making it through all phase stages, then your jfets would be suspect. Sadly they are one of the more commonly counterfeited parts. Not to scare you! Just a warning.
the gate pins are stuck at 4.7v..
and i adjusted the trimpot a bit and swapped out all of the transistors and nothings changed.
Are you an anecdotal horse?
Edit:
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"
Quote from: snow123 on June 24, 2021, 05:25:29 PM
the gate pins are stuck at 4.7v..
So the LFO isn't working. What are the voltages on the relevant pins? (finding the relevant pins is left as an exercise for the reader ;) )
Quote from: ElectricDruid on June 25, 2021, 04:43:44 PM
Quote from: snow123 on June 24, 2021, 05:25:29 PM
the gate pins are stuck at 4.7v..
So the LFO isn't working. What are the voltages on the relevant pins? (finding the relevant pins is left as an exercise for the reader ;) )
the relevant pins being p5, p6, and p7 on ic 3?
Quote from: snow123 on June 25, 2021, 06:50:36 PM
the relevant pins being p5, p6, and p7 on ic 3?
Exactly! Nice work!
Voltages there will give us some idea about the health of the LFO.
Quote from: ElectricDruid on June 26, 2021, 06:08:47 AM
Voltages there will give us some idea about the health of the LFO.
An alive (in the mean of not dead) LFO doesn't necessarily indicate a healthy one.. :icon_wink:
Quote from: ElectricDruid on June 26, 2021, 06:08:47 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 25, 2021, 06:50:36 PM
the relevant pins being p5, p6, and p7 on ic 3?
Exactly! Nice work!
Voltages there will give us some idea about the health of the LFO.
ok, here:
P5 = 0.0
P6 = 2.2
P7 = 0.0
Quote from: snow123 on June 26, 2021, 05:09:56 PM
ok, here:
P5 = 0.0
P6 = 2.2
P7 = 0.0
So...no sign of the voltages varying at all then?
Those look terrible if they're fixed numbers. You should be able to see pin 7 switch from a high state (close to 9V, but not 9V) to a low state (close to 0V but not 0V - how close in both cases depends on which op-amp you use). The pin 6 voltage should follow the voltage on the 15uF cap, a triangle wave going linearly up and down - and the triangle frequency should be affected by that 500K rate pot.
Check the component connections for the LFO carefully, and not just the joints, but *where* they're joined. Looks like something is wrong there somewhere.
wait im an idiot. the 150k on p5 is in 1 hole too high.
ok now the voltage on p5 is 3.8
and the voltage on p7 is oscillating in between 3 and 6 volts!!!
still no phaser effect when completely plugged in.
Quote from: snow123 on June 26, 2021, 08:14:50 PM
still no phaser effect when completely plugged in.
If it's passing audio as it should, but not phasing, time to check your JFETS.
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 27, 2021, 04:34:30 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 26, 2021, 08:14:50 PM
still no phaser effect when completely plugged in.
If it's passing audio as it should..
Don't let's assume that. Snow123, can you check that? Have you got audio at the outputs of all the phase stages?
IC2 pin 1, IC1 pin 1, IC1 pin 7, IC2 pin 7
Sounds like good news with the LFO. I think we're making progress.
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 27, 2021, 04:34:30 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 26, 2021, 08:14:50 PM
still no phaser effect when completely plugged in.
If it's passing audio as it should, but not phasing, time to check your JFETS.
the voltage on all of the jfets on all of the pins is 4.8
Quote from: ElectricDruid on June 27, 2021, 06:13:48 AM
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 27, 2021, 04:34:30 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 26, 2021, 08:14:50 PM
still no phaser effect when completely plugged in.
If it's passing audio as it should..
Don't let's assume that. Snow123, can you check that? Have you got audio at the outputs of all the phase stages?
IC2 pin 1, IC1 pin 1, IC1 pin 7, IC2 pin 7
Sounds like good news with the LFO. I think we're making progress.
there is audio in those places
Quote from: snow123 on June 15, 2021, 01:33:39 AM
Quote from: jimilee on June 14, 2021, 09:50:07 PM
I didn't see any mention of your JFets, are they matched?
i think so yea
So what's the story on these jfets?
Where did you get them?
Were they actually tested and/or matched?
-Did you purchased them as a matched set for this project?
-If you had tested and/or matched them, what method did you use and how many did you purchase to do this?
Again, jfets are commonly counterfeited. These parts are no longer manufactured in TO-92 packages so everything is either old stock or absolutely fake.
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on June 28, 2021, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 15, 2021, 01:33:39 AM
Quote from: jimilee on June 14, 2021, 09:50:07 PM
I didn't see any mention of your JFets, are they matched?
i think so yea
So what's the story on these jfets?
Where did you get them?
Were they actually tested and/or matched?
-Did you purchased them as a matched set for this project?
-If you had tested and/or matched them, what method did you use and how many did you purchase to do this?
Again, jfets are commonly counterfeited. These parts are no longer manufactured in TO-92 packages so everything is either old stock or absolutely fake.
I got a 20 pack off of Amazon.
Quote from: snow123 on June 28, 2021, 12:30:37 PM
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on June 28, 2021, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 15, 2021, 01:33:39 AM
Quote from: jimilee on June 14, 2021, 09:50:07 PM
I didn't see any mention of your JFets, are they matched?
i think so yea
So what's the story on these jfets?
Where did you get them?
Were they actually tested and/or matched?
-Did you purchased them as a matched set for this project?
-If you had tested and/or matched them, what method did you use and how many did you purchase to do this?
Again, jfets are commonly counterfeited. These parts are no longer manufactured in TO-92 packages so everything is either old stock or absolutely fake.
I got a 20 pack off of Amazon.
I'm guessing you were dishonest the first time you were asked about matching as you've neglected to answer it adequately once again. There's plenty of folks here who want to help you but they need you to be upfront, vigilant and observant of your work.
Follow the build notes.
You can't afford to take shortcuts. Hell, you might learn a thing or two along the way.
Best of luck moving forward.
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on June 28, 2021, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 15, 2021, 01:33:39 AM
Quote from: jimilee on June 14, 2021, 09:50:07 PM
I didn't see any mention of your JFets, are they matched?
Again, jfets are commonly counterfeited. These parts are no longer manufactured in TO-92 packages so everything is either old stock or absolutely fake.
You can still buy proper JFETS from reputable suppliers - they are still widely available from Mouser and others. Amazon on the cheap.... Not recommended.
There's even a run of through hole J201 about to become available on Mouser. Expensive, but they will be the real deal.
Quote from: andy-h-h on June 28, 2021, 05:04:32 PM
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on June 28, 2021, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: snow123 on June 15, 2021, 01:33:39 AM
Quote from: jimilee on June 14, 2021, 09:50:07 PM
I didn't see any mention of your JFets, are they matched?
Again, jfets are commonly counterfeited. These parts are no longer manufactured in TO-92 packages so everything is either old stock or absolutely fake.
You can still buy proper JFETS from reputable suppliers - they are still widely available from Mouser and others. Amazon on the cheap.... Not recommended.
There's even a run of through hole J201 about to become available on Mouser. Expensive, but they will be the real deal.
is jameco good?
Usually Jameco is good. I have obtained some 8 bit computing ICs from them a few times.
Any big supplier is fine. Just have to watch what appears to be mainly small Chinese suppliers on ebay, Amazon, Ali etc.
i just matched the jfets and im getting the same results as before.
i just build this jfet matcher:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DmvSkP9r/Greatly-Improved-JFET-Matcher-II.png) (https://postimg.cc/DmvSkP9r)
and i just tested a bunch of the 2n5457s that i got from that bundle off of amazon, and used 4 of them that had the same voltage.
and i also just ordered some 2n5457s off of jameco just in case
im still not getting a phaser effect tho
heres the transistor voltages:
Q1
D = 4.7
S = 4.8
G = 1.8
Q2
D = 4.7
S = 4.8
G = 1.8
Q3
D = 4.7
S = 4.8
G = 1.8
Q4
D= 3.6
S= 4.8
G= 1.8
Q5
C = 3.6
B = 4.2
E = 4.8
anyone still here?
well while the pedal is on it takes out a little bit of low end but thats it.
and ive checked the soldering and stuff and everything looks good.
Here's the soldering and stuff:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fJn0yfY2/20210706-131921.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fJn0yfY2)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jnNwvDY4/20210706-131924.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jnNwvDY4)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FYGfPt88/20210706-131952.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FYGfPt88)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kV1b5ryK/20210706-131957.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kV1b5ryK)
(https://i.postimg.cc/6yr4v409/20210706-132003.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6yr4v409)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WtJksHqq/20210706-132005.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WtJksHqq)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Snm27QTc/20210706-132013.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Snm27QTc)
(https://i.postimg.cc/G84s8MMN/20210706-132019.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G84s8MMN)
I also did replace those electrolytics with a 10uf and 4.7uf in parallel, and my Russian big muff that I was working on is working now.
Quote from: ElectricDruid on June 26, 2021, 07:41:25 PM
Quote from: snow123 on June 26, 2021, 05:09:56 PM
ok, here:
P5 = 0.0
P6 = 2.2
P7 = 0.0
So...no sign of the voltages varying at all then?
Those look terrible if they're fixed numbers. You should be able to see pin 7 switch from a high state (close to 9V, but not 9V) to a low state (close to 0V but not 0V - how close in both cases depends on which op-amp you use). The pin 6 voltage should follow the voltage on the 15uF cap, a triangle wave going linearly up and down - and the triangle frequency should be affected by that 500K rate pot.
Check the component connections for the LFO carefully, and not just the joints, but *where* they're joined. Looks like something is wrong there somewhere.
and the voltage on ic3 is working correctly, so thats not the issue.
What can the kind folks of this community do for you to start fixing your shorted connections?
And don't tell me there's no shorts because I'm looking right at them *more than one*.
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on July 06, 2021, 04:45:42 PM
And don't tell me there's no shorts because I'm looking right at them *more than one*.
edit: There is more than one unshorted track..!! :icon_wink: :icon_wink:
Quote from: antonis on July 06, 2021, 04:57:59 PM
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on July 06, 2021, 04:45:42 PM
And don't tell me there's no shorts because I'm looking right at them *more than one*.
edit: There is more than one unshorted track..!! :icon_wink: :icon_wink:
LOL barely.... I started circling obvious shorts and suspicious spots. There's way too many once you really glance at it all.
Snow, CONTINUITY CHECK. Watch a youtube video if you haven't figured it out by now.
Use your soldering iron to clear them out ONCE YOU KNOW THEY ARE SHORTED, don't just gouge at them with a screwdriver and pray it does something. With the iron wick them away without making it worse by spreading it out.
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on July 06, 2021, 05:02:45 PM
Quote from: antonis on July 06, 2021, 04:57:59 PM
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on July 06, 2021, 04:45:42 PM
And don't tell me there's no shorts because I'm looking right at them *more than one*.
edit: There is more than one unshorted track..!! :icon_wink: :icon_wink:
LOL barely.... I started circling obvious shorts and suspicious spots. There's way too many once you really glance at it all.
Snow, CONTINUITY CHECK. Watch a youtube video if you haven't figured it out by now.
Use your soldering iron to clear them out ONCE YOU KNOW THEY ARE SHORTED, don't just gouge at them with a screwdriver and pray it does something. With the iron wick them away without making it worse by spreading it out.
ok, im pretty sure i fixed all of the shorts and im still getting a dry signal when i turn the pedal on..
Quote from: snow123 on July 06, 2021, 05:22:25 PM
ok, im pretty sure i fixed all of the shorts and im still getting a dry signal when i turn the pedal on..
In such a case we are pretty sure you have to consult an exorcist..
Quote from: antonis on July 06, 2021, 05:40:05 PM
Quote from: snow123 on July 06, 2021, 05:22:25 PM
ok, im pretty sure i fixed all of the shorts and im still getting a dry signal when i turn the pedal on..
In such a case we are pretty sure you have to consult an exorcist..
yea i honestly have no clue what the issue is
uhhhh im an idiot... it turns out i was missing the 150k resistor thats below q4, but now when i turn it on im getting more of a swooshy univibe or small stone effect but only when the speed knob is on low, and the trimpot maxed out.
so now i do have a phaser effect, but not the big swooshy phase 90 effect, y'know?
i guess what im trying to say is that it doesnt swell in and out of phase it just goes instantly out and back into phase, kinda like a univibe.
im thinking it could be an issue with the biasing, the phase shifting stage, or the LFO.
theres also no signal when the speed pot is all the way down.
Quote from: snow123 on July 06, 2021, 05:22:25 PM
ok, im pretty sure i fixed all of the shorts . . .
I feel Kevin's frustration. How are you "pretty sure"? Why not choose to be "absolutely certain" by doing the checks he suggests?
I'm happy to hear you have found the error near Q4. I hope the voltages you had shared raised some suspicion about that area as Q4 wasn't quite on par with the others (Q1, Q2 & Q3).
Quote from: snow123 on July 06, 2021, 07:00:57 PM
it doesnt swell in and out of phase it just goes instantly out and back into phase, kinda like a univibe.
I'm not sure what your interpretation of a Uni Vibe is but it's also a phaser with a similar LFO shape - it's a sine wave feeding a light bulb which results in a modified triangle wave kind of phasing due to the bulb's filament taking more time to dim than it does to turn on.
Here's a photo of some basic LFO shapes - just so you have that knowledge under your belt.
(https://cdn.ttgtmedia.com/WhatIs/images/waveform.gif)
Needless to say, your LFO is oscillating but not as expected. Soooooooo check the LFO section for errors. We can promise you they exist.
well now I'm an idiot. the photo I've been looking at shows a 150k below Q4 [I think], but is missing a 22k next to Q4 [I think]. trouble is, I can't get a decent look at the board around Q4, where you have a bad voltage, and have to piece the scene together, forensics style.
please post a clear photo of the area around Q4.
Quote from: antonis on July 07, 2021, 06:24:54 AM
So, let's recap some standards..
Quote from: snow123 on June 09, 2021, 06:21:54 PM
wait im an idiot
Quote from: snow123 on June 26, 2021, 08:04:50 PM
wait im an idiot.
Quote from: snow123 on July 06, 2021, 06:17:27 PM
uhhhh im an idiot...
Have we any self-reflection progress..?? :icon_wink:
i mean ive realized that most of the issues are caused by me being a blind idiot so ive been checking if im missing certain components and solder joints more often! lol
i just realized im missing this 22k
(https://i.postimg.cc/dk49njD2/Inked-MXR-Phase-90-with-Script-Switch-Rev-3-LI.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dk49njD2)
Quote from: snow123 on July 07, 2021, 04:46:25 PM
i just realized im missing this 22k
(https://i.postimg.cc/dk49njD2/Inked-MXR-Phase-90-with-Script-Switch-Rev-3-LI.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dk49njD2)
ok, i just fixed that, and its more like a small stone (kinda) but not like a phase 90. like its not a full sweep.
the effect itself is still super quiet tho. and the signal doesnt go out when i turn the trimpot or speed pot down!
and q4s voltages are normal now!
i have no clue what the issue is now
i replaced the 4k7 resistor and now the effect is a tiny bit louder. and i legit have 0 clue what the issue is now.
Guys, my car is broken and runs like a Ferrari.
Quote from: snow123 on July 07, 2021, 08:17:26 PM
i have no clue what the issue is now
Fix. Your. Shorts.
Quote from: snow123 on July 07, 2021, 11:02:47 PM
i replaced the 4k7 resistor and now the effect is a tiny bit louder. and i legit have 0 clue what the issue is now.
Doubtful. Stop blindly replacing parts.
You're borderline trolling by not following up on reasonable advice. It's maddening.
You can tell me you did a continuity test on every isolated track and I wouldn't believe you as I've asked you to do this serveral times and never got an appropriate response. No "hey I found it!" just doing your own thing and reporting back.
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on July 08, 2021, 08:03:11 AM
Guys, my car is broken and runs like a Ferrari.
Quote from: snow123 on July 07, 2021, 08:17:26 PM
i have no clue what the issue is now
Fix. Your. Shorts.
Quote from: snow123 on July 07, 2021, 11:02:47 PM
i replaced the 4k7 resistor and now the effect is a tiny bit louder. and i legit have 0 clue what the issue is now.
Doubtful. Stop blindly replacing parts.
You're borderline trolling by not following up on reasonable advice. It's maddening.
You can tell me you did a continuity test on every isolated track and I wouldn't believe you as I've asked you to do this serveral times and never got an appropriate response. No "hey I found it!" just doing your own thing and reporting back.
"First there
is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
then there is."
This thread reminds me of my teenage daughter texting me.
Start text:
Dad...
End text:
Start text:
I need...
End text:
Start text:
money...
End text:
Start text:
Can you please...
End text:
Start text:
Send me some?
End text:
Quote from: duck_arse on July 08, 2021, 10:43:30 AM
"First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain, then there is."
"Oh, the snow will be a blinding sight to see as it lies on yonder hillside"
One of a few Donavan songs I know.
somehow there arent any shorts (according to my multimeter)
is there supposed to be continuity in between these areas? (the 1m resistor at the input of the circuit)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xcyLwHdp/Inked-MXR-Phase-90-with-Script-Switch-Rev-6-LI.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xcyLwHdp)
Quote from: snow123 on July 08, 2021, 02:40:11 PM
is there supposed to be continuity in between these areas? (the 1m resistor at the input of the circuit)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xcyLwHdp/Inked-MXR-Phase-90-with-Script-Switch-Rev-6-LI.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xcyLwHdp)
No. That's the input resistor and helps prevent pops when you engage the pedal. If those tracks were shorted that would also mean your input is shorted to ground. Which means no input. Which means no guitar signal.
You are doing a continuity test, right? The meter beeps when you touch the two probes together?
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on July 08, 2021, 02:57:29 PM
Quote from: snow123 on July 08, 2021, 02:40:11 PM
is there supposed to be continuity in between these areas? (the 1m resistor at the input of the circuit)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xcyLwHdp/Inked-MXR-Phase-90-with-Script-Switch-Rev-6-LI.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xcyLwHdp)
No. That's the input resistor and helps prevent pops when you engage the pedal. If those tracks were shorted that would also mean your input is shorted to ground. Which means no input. Which means no guitar signal.
You are doing a continuity test, right? The meter beeps when you touch the two probes together?
yes
Quote from: snow123 on July 08, 2021, 03:17:04 PM
yes
The only place where it should show continuity is where you had to solder a jumper. You have many solder joints that are very close together on adjacent tracks. Make sure they don't have continuity unless they are on the same uncut track or intentionally shorted together by a jumper.
Once you find it (from the last photos, I can promise they exist, or did), use your soldering iron to wick/break the shorted connection while trying to not make it worse. Glide the tip between the tracks as you did with the screwdriver.
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on July 08, 2021, 03:32:31 PM
Quote from: snow123 on July 08, 2021, 03:17:04 PM
yes
The only place where it should show continuity is where you had to solder a jumper. You have many solder joints that are very close together on adjacent tracks. Make sure they don't have continuity unless they are on the same uncut track or intentionally shorted together by a jumper.
Once you find it (from the last photos, I can promise they exist, or did), use your soldering iron to wick/break the shorted connection while trying to not make it worse. Glide the tip between the tracks as you did with the screwdriver.
well my multimeter just broke
Quote from: snow123 on July 08, 2021, 06:10:33 PM
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on July 08, 2021, 03:32:31 PM
Quote from: snow123 on July 08, 2021, 03:17:04 PM
yes
The only place where it should show continuity is where you had to solder a jumper. You have many solder joints that are very close together on adjacent tracks. Make sure they don't have continuity unless they are on the same uncut track or intentionally shorted together by a jumper.
Once you find it (from the last photos, I can promise they exist, or did), use your soldering iron to wick/break the shorted connection while trying to not make it worse. Glide the tip between the tracks as you did with the screwdriver.
well my multimeter just broke
well it only works like half the time, but here are the shorted areas that i dont know how to fix lol.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qzHD2MTT/Inked-MXR-Phase-90-with-Script-Switch-Rev-3-LI.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qzHD2MTT)
Here is (or should be :icon_mrgreen:) 1M pull-down resistor..!!
(https://i.imgur.com/oB2H2Di.jpg)
Quote from: snow123 on July 08, 2021, 07:55:25 PM
well it only works like half the time, but here are the shorted areas that i dont know how to fix lol.
Where you've drawn two red dots and a line at the bottom, the rightmost dot
is supposed to be connected to the line. (I'm assuming your red marks are showing things that are connected.) Since the row below where the input comes in has solder on it - and there's no connection supposed to be there - this looks like where it might be shorted. Take your soldering iron and swipe between the tracks as Kevin has told you to make sure there's no solder bridge there.
I've not had enough coffee to look at your apparent shorts further up the board.
Quote from: snow123 on July 08, 2021, 06:10:33 PM
well my multimeter just broke
Not through overwork... ::) ;D
How the hell could you have been audio probing a grounded signal this whole time? Maybe it's a broken hairline trace that is now touching again?
The other red marks are obviously suppose to be shorted - they're on the same track! I said adjacent tracks, not the same track. Get rid of that bottom short by scraping out that hairline copper trace on the upper part of the hole.
Again, we can see these shorts and your meter's continuity setting can find them as well.
Sorry to break the bad news, but if you're not trolling you really need glasses my dude.
^ What, it is a thing of beauty. Very popular post, read 4,840 + times with 251 replies,
(A great puzzle yet to be solved !) Fun for all.
Quote from: snow123 on July 08, 2021, 06:10:33 PM
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on July 08, 2021, 03:32:31 PM
Quote from: snow123 on July 08, 2021, 03:17:04 PM
yes
The only place where it should show continuity is where you had to solder a jumper. You have many solder joints that are very close together on adjacent tracks. Make sure they don't have continuity unless they are on the same uncut track or intentionally shorted together by a jumper.
Once you find it (from the last photos, I can promise they exist, or did), use your soldering iron to wick/break the shorted connection while trying to not make it worse. Glide the tip between the tracks as you did with the screwdriver.
well my multimeter just broke
were you fixing it?
Try de-soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xXzsV0XB/h-and-a.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xXzsV0XB)
(https://i.imgur.com/oB2H2Di.jpg)
You *still* haven't successfully cleaned out the muck from between the tracks. They're still covered in black stuff and little tiny shiny blobs of solder spatter. All that needs to go.
I know you're down to only a couple of actual shorts now, and that's *massive* progress from where we started, so things have really moved forward, but ultimately it's your technique that's letting you down. And that includes your cleaning up technique as much as your soldering technique.
More scraping!! Lots more scraping!!
Am I the only person who realized we deal with possibly shorted input right after 13 pages..??
Should we save valuable time by just going grazy right now..??
> Should we save valuable time by just going grazy right now..??
Way ahead of you. I've been grazed since the start.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fVThS6pM/20210709-154445.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fVThS6pM)
(https://i.postimg.cc/68jxrMxn/20210709-154448.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/68jxrMxn)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cz00SZ4B/20210709-154454.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Cz00SZ4B)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9rBhMWxx/20210709-154459.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9rBhMWxx)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FfY5D0hq/20210709-154504.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FfY5D0hq)
(https://i.postimg.cc/tnbMvpgf/Tracks-edited.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tnbMvpgf)
There's still a lot of areas on here that show black muck, solder spatter, and possible shorts (red circles). There's also areas where you obviously have scraped between the tracks (green circles).
There's something wrong with your soldering set-up or technique. I can't identify what exactly from only a photo of the results, but there's no way you should be getting black muck and spatter everywhere. Are you using a modern cored solder? What make? what mixture? (tin/lead, lead-free, something else?) What sort of iron? how hot?
I have boards I made when I was learning to solder and they look terrible to me now. It *is* a part of the process, we learn by making mistakes, and skills are only developed by practice. So don't be disheartened about it, but *do* try and do a few experiments to see if other combinations work better for you.
By the way, on the photo Antonis posted with the resistor position marked, there's what looks like a short one hole down and two holes right of the right-hand-side leg of the resistor. Sort that out and you might have good input signal again.
I'm using leaded rosin core solde, and Here's some better pics:
(https://i.postimg.cc/yJzHLkry/20210709-170238.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yJzHLkry)
(https://i.postimg.cc/hXmn89MG/20210709-170241.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hXmn89MG)
(https://i.postimg.cc/B8cGk4r9/20210709-170255.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/B8cGk4r9)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cgxNNPWK/20210709-170258.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/cgxNNPWK)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4HYqfgS3/20210709-170303.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4HYqfgS3)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3WqzLkk0/20210709-170305.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3WqzLkk0)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kDGkFQgd/20210709-170308.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kDGkFQgd)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zLk9pphq/20210709-170311.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zLk9pphq)
(https://i.postimg.cc/V05QJMdm/20210709-170313.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/V05QJMdm)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gXS1bJ45/20210709-170316.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gXS1bJ45)
(https://i.postimg.cc/625FPRVn/20210709-170318.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/625FPRVn)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qzhH08PG/20210709-170321.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qzhH08PG)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XXD6T2zJ/20210709-170325.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XXD6T2zJ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZW6kvJKB/20210709-170335.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZW6kvJKB)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FfvMjw7P/20210709-170338.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FfvMjw7P)
And heres what the top of the board looks like
(https://i.postimg.cc/PCj3cYTJ/20210709-170910.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PCj3cYTJ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bDs3bRHC/20210709-170913.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bDs3bRHC)
(https://i.postimg.cc/18rCZX3H/20210709-170916.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/18rCZX3H)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Mcs9vLRf/20210709-170920.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Mcs9vLRf)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kVMjMCVd/20210709-170922.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kVMjMCVd)
(https://i.postimg.cc/t7sMV9Bq/20210709-170924.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/t7sMV9Bq)
Hope you will include a warranty on this.
This things has more shorts than an Old Navy in mid summer.
I'll see myself out. Best of luck, Snow. Go back and read what Tom was explaining.
its kinda behaving like a super fuzz now
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on July 09, 2021, 08:25:02 PM
I'll see myself out.
Me too. Unless and until you accept and follow the good advice given -- and abandon your haphazard approach -- you have no hope of getting anywhere. A bunch of monkeys with typewriters may indeed eventually write Hamlet, but none of us will live that long.
What is it called when you do the same thing over and over expecting different results? :icon_lol:
Quote from: andy-h-h on July 10, 2021, 07:56:31 AM
What is it called when you do the same thing over and over expecting different results? :icon_lol:
debugging.
Quoteits kinda behaving like a super fuzz now
just as long as it doesn't start behaving like a green russian big muff.
Quote from: bluebunny on July 10, 2021, 06:37:21 AM
Quote from: Kevin Mitchell on July 09, 2021, 08:25:02 PM
I'll see myself out.
Me too. Unless and until you accept and follow the good advice given -- and abandon your haphazard approach -- you have no hope of getting anywhere. A bunch of monkeys with typewriters may indeed eventually write Hamlet, but none of us will live that long.
well im trying to fix the shorts, and if i cant find any with a multimeter or anything i give up on that part, then i look at the board and see if anything is missing or isnt soldered, then i look at the schematic and see where the signal went wrong and then see if swapping a component out would work.
and there arent any shorts according to my multimeter, and idk if i cant trust it at this point tbh.
Quote from: snow123 on July 10, 2021, 02:02:37 PM
and there arent any shorts according to my multimeter,
If so, trust your multimeter and PLEASE let us rest in peace..!! :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: antonis on July 10, 2021, 03:25:37 PM
Quote from: snow123 on July 10, 2021, 02:02:37 PM
and there arent any shorts according to my multimeter,
If so, trust your multimeter and PLEASE let us rest in peace..!! :icon_mrgreen:
ok, theres no shorts.
Quote from: snow123 on July 10, 2021, 03:31:54 PM
ok, theres no shorts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sometimes_I_Feel_Like_a_Motherless_Child#/media/File:MotherlessChild1899.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sometimes_I_Feel_Like_a_Motherless_Child#/media/File:MotherlessChild1899.jpg)
yea im sure there arent any shorts anywhere,
ok i just replaced the 47uf cap and that fixed the weird flubbery super fuzz type sounds i was getting, now its just a dry signal when its turned on.
Quote from: snow123 on July 06, 2021, 06:18:31 PM
so now i do have a phaser effect, but not the big swooshy phase 90 effect, y'know?
So what happened since this point? It sounded like you were pretty close to having it done, but you seem to have gone backwards. What have you done? Did you fix that short and the missing resistor that Antonis mentioned?
My advice is to *not* change anything unless you've clearly identified it as a problem. Debugging depends on having a known situation, and if you randomly change stuff, you don't have that. You don't know if the problems are in the original circuit or introduced by the changes you made.
Do an audio check through the circuit like we discussed earlier on. Check the output of the input buffer and the phase stages. Make sure you've got clean audio at all those points.
Quote from: ElectricDruid on July 11, 2021, 05:28:55 AM
Quote from: snow123 on July 06, 2021, 06:18:31 PM
so now i do have a phaser effect, but not the big swooshy phase 90 effect, y'know?
So what happened since this point? It sounded like you were pretty close to having it done, but you seem to have gone backwards. What have you done? Did you fix that short and the missing resistor that Antonis mentioned?
My advice is to *not* change anything unless you've clearly identified it as a problem. Debugging depends on having a known situation, and if you randomly change stuff, you don't have that. You don't know if the problems are in the original circuit or introduced by the changes you made.
Do an audio check through the circuit like we discussed earlier on. Check the output of the input buffer and the phase stages. Make sure you've got clean audio at all those points.
i was trying to identify and fix a bunch of potential shorts but i think i overheated the 47uf filter cap while doing that which resulted in that weird flubbery super fuzz thing, so i replaced that cap and that fixed the issue. and i did fix that missing resistor.
This is the only short in the circuit but I don't know how to fix it
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZvcTvHn9/20210711-160643.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZvcTvHn9)
(https://i.postimg.cc/f3pkM8SD/20210711-160643-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/f3pkM8SD)
and im not getting an input signal now.
Quote from: snow123 on July 11, 2021, 07:08:35 PM
This is the only short in the circuit but I don't know how to fix it
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZvcTvHn9/20210711-160643.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZvcTvHn9)
(https://i.postimg.cc/f3pkM8SD/20210711-160643-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/f3pkM8SD)
i just realized that short was toggled with the footswitch. i guess i cant confirm that there are 0 shorts now LMAO
This thread is very entertaining! :)
Why do you put so much solder? Perhaps you're using a solder wire that's too thick? And that makes it hard for you to control the amount?
I recommend using thin solder wire. I find 0.5mm to be perfect. Thin solder wire will make it much easier for you to control the amount of solder that goes on the pads.
Quote from: khm9 on July 11, 2021, 08:13:28 PM
This thread is very entertaining! :)
Why do you put so much solder? Perhaps you're using a solder wire that's too thick? And that makes it hard for you to control the amount?
I recommend using thin solder wire. I find 0.5mm to be perfect. Thin solder wire will make it much easier for you to control the amount of solder that goes on the pads.
i think when i was starting with the circuit i used 1mm but rn im using .8mm.
for some reason im barely getting any signal unless im touching the strings on my guitar
Quote from: snow123 on July 11, 2021, 09:12:58 PM
for some reason im barely getting any signal unless im touching the strings on my guitar
i did have this exact issue with an acapulco gold clone i built and i fixed that by replacing the 1n4001 diode, so maybe its the zener diode thats causing this?
Quote from: snow123 on July 11, 2021, 09:18:30 PM
Quote from: snow123 on July 11, 2021, 09:12:58 PM
for some reason im barely getting any signal unless im touching the strings on my guitar
i did have this exact issue with an acapulco gold clone i built and i fixed that by replacing the 1n4001 diode, so maybe its the zener diode thats causing this?
or maybe the 10uf electrolytic..
Quote from: snow123 on July 11, 2021, 09:12:58 PM
for some reason im barely getting any signal unless im touching the strings on my guitar
that turned out to be an issue with my guitar LMAO, i did fix that tho and i think the signal is dying around halfway through the phase shifting stage.
Quote from: snow123 on July 11, 2021, 09:18:30 PM
maybe its the zener diode thats causing this?
Quote from: snow123 on July 11, 2021, 09:20:08 PM
or maybe the 10uf electrolytic..
This is you guessing again, because you can't be bothered to actually find out. This time you got lucky and found out what the actual cause was (lo and behold, totally unrelated - the guitar). On other occasions, you've started re-soldering and replacing parts on your board, which just introduces more problems.
Quote from: snow123 on July 12, 2021, 02:20:12 AM
I think the signal is dying around halfway through the phase shifting stage.
"I think" you spend too much time guessing and speculating, and not enough time doing tests to find out for sure.
This is a debugging process, not an attempt at divination. The people here who are better at fixing stuff are better at it not because they have more experience and are able to go "Oh, it'll be X" but because they have a well-honed and logical process worked out that enables them to fairly rapidly eliminate possibilities and narrow the problem down until it can be tested.
Test the input buffer and the phase shift stage outputs (so five tests) and tell us what you find at each one.
Quote from: snow123 on July 11, 2021, 09:12:58 PM
for some reason im barely getting any signal unless im touching the strings on my guitar
Obviously, your signal generator doesn't work properly..!! :icon_wink:
P.S.
@snow123: I've to admit you trol everyone one here with great success...
Have called the power company to check the incoming delta phase sine curves?
Quote from: ElectricDruid on July 12, 2021, 04:25:11 AM
Quote from: snow123 on July 11, 2021, 09:18:30 PM
maybe its the zener diode thats causing this?
Quote from: snow123 on July 11, 2021, 09:20:08 PM
or maybe the 10uf electrolytic..
This is you guessing again, because you can't be bothered to actually find out. This time you got lucky and found out what the actual cause was (lo and behold, totally unrelated - the guitar). On other occasions, you've started re-soldering and replacing parts on your board, which just introduces more problems.
Quote from: snow123 on July 12, 2021, 02:20:12 AM
I think the signal is dying around halfway through the phase shifting stage.
"I think" you spend too much time guessing and speculating, and not enough time doing tests to find out for sure.
This is a debugging process, not an attempt at divination. The people here who are better at fixing stuff are better at it not because they have more experience and are able to go "Oh, it'll be X" but because they have a well-honed and logical process worked out that enables them to fairly rapidly eliminate possibilities and narrow the problem down until it can be tested.
Test the input buffer and the phase shift stage outputs (so five tests) and tell us what you find at each one.
im getting a completely clean signal throughout all of the transistors in the phase shifting stage, and when i was getting that weird small stone/univibe sound there was an effected signal through all of the jfets. and it seems that the super fuzzy signal starts at the 47nf in the output mixer (yes, i said it went away when i replaced the 47uf electrolytic but i think thats when something went wrong with my guitar lol), so i might want to replace that?
Yes, replace the guitar and add more solder to the board. That I'll fix er.
Quote from: Phend on July 12, 2021, 07:55:14 PM
Yes, replace the guitar and add more solder to the board. That I'll fix er.
no im saying i was an idiot and thought an issue with my guitar was actually an issue with the circuit.
uhhhh i think there was a short on top of the board, and i fixed that, and now im getting a really bizarre, really quiet phase effect. and i hear it when probing the 150k resistor next to q5s base.
Quote from: snow123 on July 13, 2021, 05:29:49 PM
uhhhh i think there was a short on top of the board, and i fixed that, and now im getting a really bizarre, really quiet phase effect. and i hear it when probing the 150k resistor next to q5s base.
wait no, that weird phase effect only happens when the trimpot is maxed out, when i turn down the trimpot at all it turns into that weird sputtery fuzz type sound.
part of me wants to say the trimpot is the issue but i really doubt that, i also dont have any other 250k trimpots lol.
Quote from: snow123 on July 13, 2021, 05:40:15 PM
Quote from: snow123 on July 13, 2021, 05:29:49 PM
uhhhh i think there was a short on top of the board, and i fixed that, and now im getting a really bizarre, really quiet phase effect. and i hear it when probing the 150k resistor next to q5s base.
wait no, that weird phase effect only happens when the trimpot is maxed out, when i turn down the trimpot at all it turns into that weird sputtery fuzz type sound.
there was actually a short somewhere that was 'causing that super fuzz sound thing, now i fixed that and the small stone thing is back when it max out the trimpot!!
everything looks to be working as it was working before i went backwards.
yea i dont really know what the issue could be
the only thing i think could be the issue is the 3m9 resistor but i REALLY doubt that.
Quote from: snow123 on July 17, 2021, 09:54:43 PM
the only thing i think could be the issue is the 3m9 resistor but i REALLY doubt that.
i replaced it and nothings changed (are there arent any additional shorts). but i should not that the harder i pick the strings the drippier the phaser gets, i guess.
i just tried getting a better phase effect, and it seems like the pedal is working pretty well but when i turn the speed knob down (from ~11 o clock) the phase effect starts to disappear..
ok, in summary; the phase effect (and most of the pedal) is working as it should be, but if i try to use the first 40% of the speed pot the signal disappears. but after that the signal is just fine..
Ok, here's what you've given us recently:
Quote from: snow123 on July 13, 2021, 05:29:49 PM
uhhhh i think there was a short on top of the board, and i fixed that, and now im getting a really bizarre, really quiet phase effect. and i hear it when probing the 150k resistor next to q5s base.
Quote from: snow123 on July 13, 2021, 05:40:15 PM
wait no, that weird phase effect only happens when the trimpot is maxed out, when i turn down the trimpot at all it turns into that weird sputtery fuzz type sound.
Quote from: snow123 on July 14, 2021, 06:33:49 PM
part of me wants to say the trimpot is the issue but i really doubt that, i also dont have any other 250k trimpots lol.
Quote from: snow123 on July 14, 2021, 10:15:40 PM
there was actually a short somewhere that was 'causing that super fuzz sound thing, now i fixed that and the small stone thing is back when it max out the trimpot!!
Quote from: snow123 on July 14, 2021, 10:20:47 PM
everything looks to be working as it was working before i went backwards.
Quote from: snow123 on July 17, 2021, 09:52:39 PM
yea i dont really know what the issue could be
Quote from: snow123 on July 17, 2021, 09:54:43 PM
the only thing i think could be the issue is the 3m9 resistor but i REALLY doubt that.
Quote from: snow123 on July 17, 2021, 11:41:53 PM
i just tried getting a better phase effect, and it seems like the pedal is working pretty well but when i turn the speed knob down (from ~11 o clock) the phase effect starts to disappear..
Quote from: snow123 on July 18, 2021, 01:03:41 PM
ok, in summary; the phase effect (and most of the pedal) is working as it should be, but if i try to use the first 40% of the speed pot the signal disappears. but after that the signal is just fine..
Now, *you* tell me what part of that train-of-thought thinking-out-loud we can actually work with?!? There's basically not much there that gives us any concrete information about your circuit, only stuff about what you *think* about your circuit. No voltages, no report of what you hear where, except for the final output. You're speculating. You have no idea. That's fine - that's why you're here asking us instead.
The only actual clues in any of that is that you're only getting phasing in a certain frequency range of the LFO, and that the LFO trimpot isn't behaving as it should. Both of those things suggest problems in the LFO circuit, so you're back to checking component value, shorts, and voltages in the LFO part of the circuit. This is actually a MASSIVE step forward because it means that we've most likely got all of the audio path working eventually and we're only a few tweaks away from a fully-working pedal! So don't give up! We're really close!
So let's have some voltages around the LFO op-amp this time. If you don't know where or what that is, for god's sake ASK! A wise teacher of mine used to say that "the only stupid question is the one you don't ask". This advice has stood me in good stead and I've learned a lot by asking stupid questions. Lots and lots of "stupid" questions. And now I know the answers to those and the people that didn't ask don't ;)
Quote from: ElectricDruid on July 18, 2021, 06:32:46 PM
Ok, here's what you've given us recently:
Quote from: snow123 on July 13, 2021, 05:29:49 PM
uhhhh i think there was a short on top of the board, and i fixed that, and now im getting a really bizarre, really quiet phase effect. and i hear it when probing the 150k resistor next to q5s base.
Quote from: snow123 on July 13, 2021, 05:40:15 PM
wait no, that weird phase effect only happens when the trimpot is maxed out, when i turn down the trimpot at all it turns into that weird sputtery fuzz type sound.
Quote from: snow123 on July 14, 2021, 06:33:49 PM
part of me wants to say the trimpot is the issue but i really doubt that, i also dont have any other 250k trimpots lol.
Quote from: snow123 on July 14, 2021, 10:15:40 PM
there was actually a short somewhere that was 'causing that super fuzz sound thing, now i fixed that and the small stone thing is back when it max out the trimpot!!
Quote from: snow123 on July 14, 2021, 10:20:47 PM
everything looks to be working as it was working before i went backwards.
Quote from: snow123 on July 17, 2021, 09:52:39 PM
yea i dont really know what the issue could be
Quote from: snow123 on July 17, 2021, 09:54:43 PM
the only thing i think could be the issue is the 3m9 resistor but i REALLY doubt that.
Quote from: snow123 on July 17, 2021, 11:41:53 PM
i just tried getting a better phase effect, and it seems like the pedal is working pretty well but when i turn the speed knob down (from ~11 o clock) the phase effect starts to disappear..
Quote from: snow123 on July 18, 2021, 01:03:41 PM
ok, in summary; the phase effect (and most of the pedal) is working as it should be, but if i try to use the first 40% of the speed pot the signal disappears. but after that the signal is just fine..
Now, *you* tell me what part of that train-of-thought thinking-out-loud we can actually work with?!? There's basically not much there that gives us any concrete information about your circuit, only stuff about what you *think* about your circuit. No voltages, no report of what you hear where, except for the final output. You're speculating. You have no idea. That's fine - that's why you're here asking us instead.
The only actual clues in any of that is that you're only getting phasing in a certain frequency range of the LFO, and that the LFO trimpot isn't behaving as it should. Both of those things suggest problems in the LFO circuit, so you're back to checking component value, shorts, and voltages in the LFO part of the circuit. This is actually a MASSIVE step forward because it means that we've most likely got all of the audio path working eventually and we're only a few tweaks away from a fully-working pedal! So don't give up! We're really close!
So let's have some voltages around the LFO op-amp this time. If you don't know where or what that is, for god's sake ASK! A wise teacher of mine used to say that "the only stupid question is the one you don't ask". This advice has stood me in good stead and I've learned a lot by asking stupid questions. Lots and lots of "stupid" questions. And now I know the answers to those and the people that didn't ask don't ;)
so for some reason i thought that swapping the pot out would fix that ::), and it didnt. it actually removes the phase effect (that should be an easy fix), but turning the pedal on does make the signal go slightly out of phase, but anyways heres the voltages:
Q1-q4
D = 4.7
S = 4.8
G = 0 (?)
Q5
C = 3.1
B = 4.2/3
E = 4.8
ic3 (p5-8):
p5 = 4.9
p6 = 0 (??)
p7 = 7.7
p8 = 9.0
so im thinking theres something wrong with the 47nf thats next to q4s source and gate, and maybe the 10nf thats near q5.
and i replaced the 470k next to ic3 (ive been replacing parts instead of checking soldering 'cause i know that everything is soldered correctly and theres no shorts, and i replaaced the 470k and the 10nf 'cause the speed pot isnt doing anything and 'cause of the lack of voltage at p7.) and now theres no voltage at p6... so there is definitely an issue around the speed control and the LFO part of ic3. and maybe in-between the phase shifting stage and the lfo. but i doubt that theres anything wrong with the phase shifting stage since the signal is slightly going out of phase, but not oscillating at all.
why do you show a question mark against the gate voltage? if it is at 0V, the fets won't do anything, you need to adjust that trimpot to bias them into their happy place. do you still have a voltage on D2 [assuming tonepad circuit refs], the zener?
also, if an IC has eight legs, we want eight voltage readings, not 3 or 4. what you don't list might be the key.
IC1 (Top):
P1 = 4.7
P2 = 4.7
P3 =4.7
P4 = 0
P5 = 4.7
P6 = 4.7
P7 = 4.7
P8 = 8.9
IC2 (Middle):
P1 = 4.7
P2 = 4.7
P3 = 4.7
P4 = 0
P5 = 4.7
P6 = 4.7
P7 = 4.7
P8 = 8.9
IC3 (Bottom):
P1 = 4.7
P2 = 4.7
P3 = 3.2
P4 = 0
P5 = 3.2
P6 = 0
P7 = 0
P8 = 8.9
5v1 zener (diode test):
4.29.
5v1 zener (200 dcv):
-4.7 (not sure why its negative when i have the negative probe on the cathode)
and the trimpot does affect the jfets gate voltage but it doesnt oscillate.
Quote5v1 zener (200 dcv):
-4.7 (not sure why its negative when i have the negative probe on the cathode)
I'm guessing this means you have the red probe on the ground. which is wired negative ground. so the meter is
ground referencing the positive zener voltage, and reading how far below it, how much more negative, ground is.
QuoteIC3 (Bottom):
P1 = 4.7
P2 = 4.7
P3 = 3.2
P4 = 0
P5 = 3.2
P6 = 0
P7 = 0
P8 = 8.9
from this I'm guessing IC3 pins 5, 6 and 7 are the input buffer, IC1A on the [once seen, long ago] tonepad circuit diagram. pins 6 and 7 should read anything but 0, so there is either a fault there, or a mis-reading.
Quoteand the trimpot does affect the jfets gate voltage but it doesnt oscillate.
the zener is meant to provide a steady voltage reference. the trimpot is meant to read that voltage, and tap-off a divided, also stable, voltage of your choice. lower than reference, but higher than ground/0V. the voltage at the trimpot is not meant to oscillate or waver. it is a reference, and is held away from the oscillations by the 1,000,000 ohms of resistance attached to its wiper. the far end of
that resistor is meant to provide a bias to the jfet gates, that bias being tuned by you to the point where the jfets do their thing, and change their resistance in accordance with the applied oscillator output, via the 3M9. phasing your signal.
so you need signal thru the input buffer, and a voltage bias on the gates, and an oscillating signal on the gates, if you want phasing at the output.
you only need to use the 20V DC setting for pedal work. always take voltage readings with the black probe on ground. use the diode test range when the diode is not soldered to the circuit.
alright, on second look, not the input buffer. if those 0V pins are the oscillator stage, you look to have
a short of some description, somewhere around pins 6 and 7.
Quote from: duck_arse on July 21, 2021, 10:47:00 AM
Quote5v1 zener (200 dcv):
-4.7 (not sure why its negative when i have the negative probe on the cathode)
I'm guessing this means you have the red probe on the ground. which is wired negative ground. so the meter is ground referencing the positive zener voltage, and reading how far below it, how much more negative, ground is.
QuoteIC3 (Bottom):
P1 = 4.7
P2 = 4.7
P3 = 3.2
P4 = 0
P5 = 3.2
P6 = 0
P7 = 0
P8 = 8.9
from this I'm guessing IC3 pins 5, 6 and 7 are the input buffer, IC1A on the [once seen, long ago] tonepad circuit diagram. pins 6 and 7 should read anything but 0, so there is either a fault there, or a mis-reading.
Quoteand the trimpot does affect the jfets gate voltage but it doesnt oscillate.
the zener is meant to provide a steady voltage reference. the trimpot is meant to read that voltage, and tap-off a divided, also stable, voltage of your choice. lower than reference, but higher than ground/0V. the voltage at the trimpot is not meant to oscillate or waver. it is a reference, and is held away from the oscillations by the 1,000,000 ohms of resistance attached to its wiper. the far end of that resistor is meant to provide a bias to the jfet gates, that bias being tuned by you to the point where the jfets do their thing, and change their resistance in accordance with the applied oscillator output, via the 3M9. phasing your signal.
so you need signal thru the input buffer, and a voltage bias on the gates, and an oscillating signal on the gates, if you want phasing at the output.
you only need to use the 20V DC setting for pedal work. always take voltage readings with the black probe on ground. use the diode test range when the diode is not soldered to the circuit.
alright, on second look, not the input buffer. if those 0V pins are the oscillator stage, you look to have a short of some description, somewhere around pins 6 and 7.
i meant the jfets gate voltage doesnt oscilate.
Quote from: duck_arse on July 21, 2021, 10:47:00 AM
alright, on second look, not the input buffer. if those 0V pins are the oscillator stage, you look to have a short of some description, somewhere around pins 6 and 7.
+1 what DA says. The half of IC3 that is supposed to be doing the LFO looks terrible. 3 and 5 aren't great, but might be ok after whatever else is wrong is fixed. 0V on 6 and 7 is not at all right. You've got some shorts or bad joints or something on there.
Send a us a detail picture of just that area if you like and we'll take a look. If the LFO isn't working, the JFET gates won't ever be right, no matter how you adjust the trimpot. So it's crucial to get the LFO going.
Quote from: ElectricDruid on July 21, 2021, 02:41:52 PM
Quote from: duck_arse on July 21, 2021, 10:47:00 AM
alright, on second look, not the input buffer. if those 0V pins are the oscillator stage, you look to have a short of some description, somewhere around pins 6 and 7.
+1 what DA says. The half of IC3 that is supposed to be doing the LFO looks terrible. 3 and 5 aren't great, but might be ok after whatever else is wrong is fixed. 0V on 6 and 7 is not at all right. You've got some shorts or bad joints or something on there.
Send a us a detail picture of just that area if you like and we'll take a look. If the LFO isn't working, the JFET gates won't ever be right, no matter how you adjust the trimpot. So it's crucial to get the LFO going.
Here's some pics of the lfo area
(https://i.postimg.cc/9wZdYTWQ/20210721-131554.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9wZdYTWQ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5655Hw7P/20210721-131559.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5655Hw7P)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CRmj7wVk/20210721-131609.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CRmj7wVk)
(https://i.postimg.cc/KRhrv9Nk/20210721-131613.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/KRhrv9Nk)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mhHy4xQW/20210721-131618.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mhHy4xQW)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y40QyTpV/20210721-131625.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Y40QyTpV)
(https://i.postimg.cc/75x3Sfjq/20210721-131634.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/75x3Sfjq)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2bSfbwF/redder-circle.jpg)
remove those two caps - take them outside and throw them as far as you can. you have the theory correct, but not the execution. replace that cap with ONE ONLY 10uF, or a 22uF, or a 47uF, or even a 4u7, whatever you have, doesn't matter, just to get it to work. then retake and repost voltages, please.
nice-ish work on the 3M9.
Quote from: duck_arse on July 22, 2021, 10:05:42 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2bSfbwF/redder-circle.jpg)
remove those two caps - take them outside and throw them as far as you can. you have the theory correct, but not the execution. replace that cap with ONE ONLY 10uF, or a 22uF, or a 47uF, or even a 4u7, whatever you have, doesn't matter, just to get it to work. then retake and repost voltages, please.
nice-ish work on the 3M9.
i swapped those caps for a 22uf and now the signal is a bit more out of phase but still not oscilating, theres only a sweep while im adjusting the trimpot.
the trimpot is acting like a wah pedal but without the treadle. so the lfo is just stuck i guess.
Quote from: snow123 on July 23, 2021, 12:27:24 AM
the trimpot is acting like a wah pedal but without the treadle. so the lfo is just stuck i guess.
as in its only making that phase effect when im actively turning the trimpot.
are you going to post the voltages on that opamp, the oscillator one? if you still get 0V on any pin other than pin 4, power off, pull the IC, set your meter to low ohms range, and probe the empty socket. test pin 8 to pin 7, then pin 7 to pin 6, then pin 6 to pin 5, then pin 1 to pin 2, etc ..... THEN test pin 8 to pin 1, pin 7 to pin 2, pin 6 to pin 3, and pin 5 to pin 4. except for pins 1 and 2, you will probably -- well, you should, on a woorking circuit -- get wobbly nonsense readings - we don't really care about those. we want to know where you find a steady, low resistance reading.
actually, YOU want to know moreso than we do.
Quote from: duck_arse on July 24, 2021, 10:25:27 AM
are you going to post the voltages on that opamp, the oscillator one? if you still get 0V on any pin other than pin 4, power off, pull the IC, set your meter to low ohms range, and probe the empty socket. test pin 8 to pin 7, then pin 7 to pin 6, then pin 6 to pin 5, then pin 1 to pin 2, etc ..... THEN test pin 8 to pin 1, pin 7 to pin 2, pin 6 to pin 3, and pin 5 to pin 4. except for pins 1 and 2, you will probably -- well, you should, on a woorking circuit -- get wobbly nonsense readings - we don't really care about those. we want to know where you find a steady, low resistance reading.
actually, YOU want to know moreso than we do.
IC3 (Bottom):
P1 = 4.8
P2 = 4.8
P3 = 4.6
P4 = 0
P5 = 0
P6 = 0
P7 = 8.1
P8 = 9.4
Quote from: duck_arse on July 24, 2021, 10:25:27 AM
are you going to post the voltages on that opamp, the oscillator one? if you still get 0V on any pin other than pin 4, power off, pull the IC, set your meter to low ohms range, and probe the empty socket. test pin 8 to pin 7, then pin 7 to pin 6, then pin 6 to pin 5, then pin 1 to pin 2, etc ..... THEN test pin 8 to pin 1, pin 7 to pin 2, pin 6 to pin 3, and pin 5 to pin 4. except for pins 1 and 2, you will probably -- well, you should, on a woorking circuit -- get wobbly nonsense readings - we don't really care about those. we want to know where you find a steady, low resistance reading.
actually, YOU want to know moreso than we do.
and im not getting any steady readings anywhere on the socket.
Re-install the link shown in the following image;
(https://i.postimg.cc/9R3m7Mtd/0-Phase90-A.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9R3m7Mtd)
Click on image to download
One leg appears not to be soldered.
Edit;
Also, from your voltage readings of the LFO, pin 5 can only be at 0V if it is shorted to 0V somewhere. Pin 6 is most likely at 0V because of the link that is not correctly soldered. Please refer to the following image;
(https://i.postimg.cc/Lhtq2sJP/0-Phase90-B.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Lhtq2sJP)
Quote from: Slowpoke101 on July 24, 2021, 06:06:23 PM
Re-install the link shown in the following image;
(https://i.postimg.cc/9R3m7Mtd/0-Phase90-A.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9R3m7Mtd)
Click on image to download
One leg appears not to be soldered.
Edit;
Also, from your voltage readings of the LFO, pin 5 can only be at 0V if it is shorted to 0V somewhere. Pin 6 is most likely at 0V because of the link that is not correctly soldered. Please refer to the following image;
(https://i.postimg.cc/Lhtq2sJP/0-Phase90-B.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Lhtq2sJP)
just did that, getting nothing else.
I hope that your multimeter is now working correctly. I haven't been following this saga very closely.
Make certain that your effects circuit is not powered (remove the battery or disconnect power - whatever), set your meter to low resistance measurement. Short the test leads together and note what reading you get, then see what reading you get when you test pins 4 and 5 of the LFO IC (place one test lead on pin 4 and the other lead on pin 5). Are the the readings the same?
Quote from: Slowpoke101 on July 25, 2021, 02:34:19 AM
I hope that your multimeter is now working correctly. I haven't been following this saga very closely.
Make certain that your effects circuit is not powered (remove the battery or disconnect power - whatever), set your meter to low resistance measurement. Short the test leads together and note what reading you get, then see what reading you get when you test pins 4 and 5 of the LFO IC (place one test lead on pin 4 and the other lead on pin 5). Are the the readings the same?
i did get a new multimeter btw
Quote from: snow123 on July 25, 2021, 08:03:30 AM
Quote from: Slowpoke101 on July 25, 2021, 02:34:19 AM
I hope that your multimeter is now working correctly. I haven't been following this saga very closely.
Make certain that your effects circuit is not powered (remove the battery or disconnect power - whatever), set your meter to low resistance measurement. Short the test leads together and note what reading you get, then see what reading you get when you test pins 4 and 5 of the LFO IC (place one test lead on pin 4 and the other lead on pin 5). Are the the readings the same?
i did get a new multimeter btw
and what, pray, does it show?
We're 53 days in trying to help debug this one...
(https://i.postimg.cc/rKgwy7wf/tenor.gif) (https://postimg.cc/rKgwy7wf) (https://i.postimg.cc/nsxxvkrX/images.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nsxxvkrX)
Shooting for 8000 views.
This thread is for a DIY Olympics Medal made of Solder.
Sloppy crappy one to boot.
Quote from: Slowpoke101 on July 25, 2021, 02:34:19 AM
I hope that your multimeter is now working correctly. I haven't been following this saga very closely.
Make certain that your effects circuit is not powered (remove the battery or disconnect power - whatever), set your meter to low resistance measurement. Short the test leads together and note what reading you get, then see what reading you get when you test pins 4 and 5 of the LFO IC (place one test lead on pin 4 and the other lead on pin 5). Are the the readings the same?
wait do i have to have the guitar plugged in
No, you do not need your guitar to be plugged in for this test. You also do not need your amplifier to be connected either. Just make certain that the effect is not powered at all.
Do not remove the LFO IC from the board. Just measure the resistance between pins 4 and 5. Is it the same as when you short your multimeter's leads together?
Also, that is good news that you got a new multimeter :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Slowpoke101 on July 26, 2021, 11:18:53 PM
No, you do not need your guitar to be plugged in for this test. You also do not need your amplifier to be connected either. Just make certain that the effect is not powered at all.
Do not remove the LFO IC from the board. Just measure the resistance between pins 4 and 5. Is it the same as when you short your multimeter's leads together?
Also, that is good news that you got a new multimeter :icon_mrgreen:
i have random readings when i first short the leads together and after a few seconds in goes to 0, and i have nothing in between p4 and p5
Quote from: Phend on July 26, 2021, 05:03:31 PM
Shooting for 8000 views.
This thread is for a DIY Olympics Medal made of Solder.
Sloppy crappy one to boot.
It's like slowing down for a car crash. You know you shouldn't, but you just have to look.
Quote from: snow123 on July 27, 2021, 01:29:14 AM
i have random readings when i first short the leads together and after a few seconds in goes to 0, and i have nothing in between p4 and p5
Interesting result, now do the same test but between pins 4 and 6, then between 5 and 6. Let us know what you find.
Also, would you be able to upload a picture of your multimeter showing the test lead connection options.
Quote from: Slowpoke101 on July 27, 2021, 04:01:05 AM
Quote from: snow123 on July 27, 2021, 01:29:14 AM
i have random readings when i first short the leads together and after a few seconds in goes to 0, and i have nothing in between p4 and p5
Interesting result, now do the same test but between pins 4 and 6, then between 5 and 6. Let us know what you find.
Also, would you be able to upload a picture of your multimeter showing the test lead connection options.
this is my multimeter
(https://i.postimg.cc/c6GQGb39/20210727-051716.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/c6GQGb39)
(https://i.postimg.cc/K3Q2jTj9/20210727-051728.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/K3Q2jTj9)
should i swap out the trimpot?
Quote from: snow123 on July 27, 2021, 08:01:31 PM
should i swap out the trimpot?
i just swapped it and nothings changed.
i should also mention the speed knob isnt doing anything.
if the oscillator isn't running, the speed knob won't do anything. if you still have tose extra 0V measures, the oscillator isn't running. you still need to find the short causing the problem.
why change the trimpot, why suspect the trimpot? did you test it first, or just pull it out? did you test the pulled trimpot?
Quote from: duck_arse on July 29, 2021, 11:12:21 AM
why change the trimpot, why suspect the trimpot? did you test it first, or just pull it out? did you test the pulled trimpot?
No. Snow123's Modus Operandi is "Suspect some random part, change some random part, wonder why random things are happening". And then repeat, too frequently.
Notice how they didn't wait for an answer to the question about whether they should swap the trimpot before actually doing it? Since the answer that would have been given was "No, why?", actually waiting would have been a much better response. But Snow123 seems to be someone for whom any sort of activity is better than no activity at all, even if it takes them further away from their goal. After all, they can always do double the work to get back to where they started. As has been demonstrated several times already on this thread. They are certainly willing to do the work, but mostly it has been self-inflicted. And mostly it serves only to get us back to where we were several pages earlier.
Honestly, Snow - slow down, stop changing bits at random and we can help you fix this thing. While you insist on giving us a moving target by changing random parts, even the knowledgable people here don't stand a chance.
At this point, we're close. It seems like all your phase stages are mostly working. It seems like if you could get a decent LFO signal running, you might even have a working phaser. Pulling out the bias trimmer and changing it for no reason doesn't get you any closer to that, as people would tell you if you'd give them a chance, or as you'd work out yourself if you thought through what you were doing and tested the parts you were thinking are faulty.
My advice is that you shouldn't give up, but you should slow down. "Less haste, more speed" they say where I'm from, meaning the job gets done quicker if you don't rush it.
Quote from: ElectricDruid on July 29, 2021, 07:03:08 PM
Quote from: duck_arse on July 29, 2021, 11:12:21 AM
why change the trimpot, why suspect the trimpot? did you test it first, or just pull it out? did you test the pulled trimpot?
No. Snow123's Modus Operandi is "Suspect some random part, change some random part, wonder why random things are happening". And then repeat, too frequently.
Notice how they didn't wait for an answer to the question about whether they should swap the trimpot before actually doing it? Since the answer that would have been given was "No, why?", actually waiting would have been a much better response. But Snow123 seems to be someone for whom any sort of activity is better than no activity at all, even if it takes them further away from their goal. After all, they can always do double the work to get back to where they started. As has been demonstrated several times already on this thread. They are certainly willing to do the work, but mostly it has been self-inflicted. And mostly it serves only to get us back to where we were several pages earlier.
Honestly, Snow - slow down, stop changing bits at random and we can help you fix this thing. While you insist on giving us a moving target by changing random parts, even the knowledgable people here don't stand a chance.
At this point, we're close. It seems like all your phase stages are mostly working. It seems like if you could get a decent LFO signal running, you might even have a working phaser. Pulling out the bias trimmer and changing it for no reason doesn't get you any closer to that, as people would tell you if you'd give them a chance, or as you'd work out yourself if you thought through what you were doing and tested the parts you were thinking are faulty.
My advice is that you shouldn't give up, but you should slow down. "Less haste, more speed" they say where I'm from, meaning the job gets done quicker if you don't rush it.
i thought that the trimpot was somehow kinda blocking the signal or something i guess. i thought something couldve been wrong in the area outlined below:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wtr3P70S/Inked-MXR-Phase-90-with-Script-Switch-Rev-3-LI.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Wtr3P70S)
I am still waiting for you to post the results to my questions that I asked some days ago. You did post some pictures of your meter which does help us to see what tests your meter can do. But more importantly, so we can advise you as to how to do any of those tests.
People are trying to help you so please take the time and try to follow their suggestions and instructions.
Here is something to consider - your LFO oscillator (Rate Knob) was sorta working at one point. But it dropped dead after you changed the 470K resistor next to IC3 and a 150K resistor. That 470K resistor connects to pin 7 and pin 5 of IC3. Also that 150K resistor connects to pin 5 of IC3 and to the Cathode of D1 (amongst other things). This area is where your problem most likely is - possible solder bridges or bad connections. Look closely.
i just did some reflowing and i checked the soldering a bunch, then i tested it and for a bit i got a full phase effect (without actively turning the trimpot!), then it went away, and im only getitng the full phase effect when im actively turning the trimpot...
im thinking i should replace the sockets since there pretty loose now
Turn the Rate control to mid-way and measure the voltages on pins 5, 6 an 7 of IC3.
What are they?
OK...Replace the IC socket first and than measure the voltages.
Quote from: Slowpoke101 on July 29, 2021, 10:14:54 PM
Turn the Rate control to mid-way and measure the voltages on pins 5, 6 an 7 of IC3.
What are they?
OK...Replace the IC socket first and than measure the voltages.
i shouldve clarified that i was talking about the transistor sockets
Quote from: Slowpoke101 on July 29, 2021, 10:14:54 PM
Turn the Rate control to mid-way and measure the voltages on pins 5, 6 an 7 of IC3.
What are they?
OK...Replace the IC socket first and than measure the voltages.
p5 = 5.4
p6 = started at 1.1, then kept going up every time i check, last time i checked it was at about 3.2
p7 = 7.8
Quote from: snow123 on July 29, 2021, 10:23:55 PM
Quote from: Slowpoke101 on July 29, 2021, 10:14:54 PM
Turn the Rate control to mid-way and measure the voltages on pins 5, 6 an 7 of IC3.
What are they?
OK...Replace the IC socket first and than measure the voltages.
p5 = 5.4
p6 = started at 1.1, then kept going up every time i check, last time i checked it was at about 3.2
p7 = 7.8
Good !!!!! :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:. The LFO (Rate Oscillator) is now working 8). You need to carefully adjust the trimpot for best sweep effect BUT if the JFETs are loose in the sockets you will have problems. Replace the sockets but be careful and not cause more problems.
Quote from: Slowpoke101 on July 29, 2021, 10:29:38 PM
Quote from: snow123 on July 29, 2021, 10:23:55 PM
Quote from: Slowpoke101 on July 29, 2021, 10:14:54 PM
Turn the Rate control to mid-way and measure the voltages on pins 5, 6 an 7 of IC3.
What are they?
OK...Replace the IC socket first and than measure the voltages.
p5 = 5.4
p6 = started at 1.1, then kept going up every time i check, last time i checked it was at about 3.2
p7 = 7.8
Good !!!!! :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:. The LFO (Rate Oscillator) is now working 8). You need to carefully adjust the trimpot for best sweep effect BUT if the JFETs are loose in the sockets you will have problems. Replace the sockets but be careful and not cause more problems.
i swapped the jfet sockets and nothings changed
Measure the voltage on pin 6 of IC3. Is it changing very slowly?
The Rate pot has three terminals. Only two terminals are used, the centre terminal and the terminal to its right when looking down on the pot with the terminals towards you. How do you have it connected?
Quote from: Slowpoke101 on July 29, 2021, 11:59:59 PM
Measure the voltage on pin 6 of IC3. Is it changing very slowly?
The Rate pot has three terminals. Only two terminals are used, the centre terminal and the terminal to its right when looking down on the pot with the terminals towards you. How do you have it connected?
i have it exactly like that except the first leg is connected to the input jacks ground, 'cause when i didnt have it connected to ground i was very noisy.
Disconnect that connection to ground. It should not be there at all. Do not worry about noise at the moment.
Then measure the voltage on pin 6 of IC3.
Does it vary?
Quote from: Slowpoke101 on July 30, 2021, 01:23:07 AM
Disconnect that connection to ground. It should not be there at all. Do not worry about noise at the moment.
Then measure the voltage on pin 6 of IC3.
Does it vary?
nope
With the Rate control mid-way, what voltages do you read on its two terminals?
Quote from: Slowpoke101 on July 30, 2021, 01:32:32 AM
With the Rate control mid-way, what voltages do you read on its two terminals?
wait its working now
i didnt do anything except snip the wire connecting the pots 1st lug to ground
Quote from: snow123 on July 30, 2021, 01:43:50 AM
i didnt do anything except snip the wire connecting the pot to ground
Good!
Now set the Rate pot to max (fast) - the voltage on pin 6 of IC3 should vary very quickly now, strum your guitar's strings and adjust the trimpot for best phase effect.
Quote from: snow123 on July 30, 2021, 01:43:34 AM
Quote from: Slowpoke101 on July 30, 2021, 01:32:32 AM
With the Rate control mid-way, what voltages do you read on its two terminals?
wait its working now
wait no it isnt
im gonna replace q5 socket
Quote from: snow123 on July 30, 2021, 01:57:35 AM
im gonna replace q5 socket
Why?
Finding out why the Rate pot has no effect on pin 6 of IC3 would be more productive and to start finding that out involves measuring the voltages on the Rate pot's terminals.
Quote from: Slowpoke101 on July 30, 2021, 02:06:00 AM
Quote from: snow123 on July 30, 2021, 01:57:35 AM
im gonna replace q5 socket
Why?
Finding out why the Rate pot has no effect on pin 6 of IC3 would be more productive and to start finding that out involves measuring the voltages on the Rate pot's terminals.
'cause it was working, and then just wasnt working so i was assuming there was a loose connection there.
If there was a problem with Q5 there would be no audio output. Or it would be weak and distorted.
Now what are those voltages?
Quote from: Slowpoke101 on July 30, 2021, 02:17:18 AM
If there was a problem with Q5 there would be no audio output. Or it would be weak and distorted.
Now what are those voltages?
lug 2: .5
lug 3: 0
also, a part of a track near q1 got loose (luckily nothing was soldered to it), and that probably was shorting out to one of the other tracks.
Lug 2 connects to the 4K7 resistor at the lower right of the board. This resistor then connects up to a 150K resistor connected to pin 6 of IC3. There should be a varying voltage on this lug. Look for a bad connection or broken wire.
Lug 3 connects to pin 7 of IC3 which you found was at nearly 7.8V. Lug 3 should have much more than 0 volts on it. Look for a faulty wire or short to ground.
Quote from: Slowpoke101 on July 30, 2021, 02:45:01 AM
Lug 2 connects to the 4K7 resistor at the lower right of the board. This resistor then connects up to a 150K resistor connected to pin 6 of IC3. There should be a varying voltage on this lug. Look for a bad connection or broken wire.
Lug 3 connects to pin 7 of IC3 which you found was at nearly 7.8V. Lug 3 should have much more than 0 volts on it. Look for a faulty wire or short to ground.
i replaced the 150k near q5 and the pedal is working!! but the trimpot is really fussy
It is normal for the trimpot to have a very narrow adjustment range. It can be difficult to find the best bias point and some patience will be required to do so.
Does the Rate control now work?
Yep! everythings working perfectly!!
Quote from: snow123 on July 30, 2021, 03:32:15 AM
Yep! everythings working perfectly!!
Excellent :icon_mrgreen: Well done 8) Now tidy it it up, close up the enclosure and play.
Don't forget to thank all the good people that helped you along this difficult journey..
Thanks everyone! ;D ;D ;D ;D
You're welcome.. :icon_wink:
P.S.
In improbable case of effect boxing issues, plz be our guest here..
Quote from: snow123 on July 30, 2021, 01:19:29 AM
Quote from: Slowpoke101 on July 29, 2021, 11:59:59 PM
Measure the voltage on pin 6 of IC3. Is it changing very slowly?
The Rate pot has three terminals. Only two terminals are used, the centre terminal and the terminal to its right when looking down on the pot with the terminals towards you. How do you have it connected?
i have it exactly like that except the first leg is connected to the input jacks ground, 'cause when i didnt have it connected to ground i was very noisy.
please tell us when you did this, how many pages ago was it? and didn't anyone here mention looking for shorts? and a tip - if you randomly solder wires shorting things to ground, and the circuit in question then doesn't work - DON'T BLAME THE TRIMPOT.
I have it exactly like that.
Am I invited to the afterparty? :icon_lol:
Snow, you don't have bad parts, you probably never did. You have bad strategy. In your efforts of replacing random parts, you've probably cleaned up shorts we've been trying oh-so hard to draw your attention to.
I'm very happy for you and the fact that you've got it working. But the folks here would be far more satisfied knowing that you've learned at least a few things from this 19 page thread of trial and error. You may not owe it to us, but you certainly owe it to yourself to list what you've learned. You've worked very hard on this!
Persistence certainly pays off. May your next build hold less tribulations.
Till next time!
19 pages? Rob would have designed a whole project by now. (OK, maybe 26 pages... ;D)
I'll be damn if I will ever ever build a Phase 90 since it is this complicated.
Phase 89.5 I might try. Maybe, at least I'll have Snow 123 to ask for help if I get shorted.
Epic.
Quote from: Phend on July 30, 2021, 05:40:43 PM
I'll be damn if I will ever ever build a Phase 90 since it is this complicated.
Phase 89.5 I might try. Maybe, at least I'll have Snow 123 to ask for help if I get shorted.
It isn't this complicated, I've built quite a few. Vero is complicated out of the gate.
its been a little bit but is there any way i could add a volume control? 'cause ive noticed when i turn it on, it boosts the volume by ALOT and it's too much sometimes, and i end up having to turn down the volume on my amp lol.
Simple way is to replace 150k resistor (the one upper right, between Output & GND) with a pot wired as variable resistor (lug3 & wiper shorted)
(it reduces Q1 gain..)
Before implementing it, try with another 150k or so resistor in parallel with the existing 150k one to see if it pleases you.. :icon_wink:
Another way is to take-off 150k resistor, wire Volume pot lug 3 to Output, lug 1 on GND and take output from wiper..
Quote from: antonis on August 21, 2021, 04:59:08 AM
Simple way is to replace 150k resistor (the one upper right, between Output & GND) with a pot wired as variable resistor (lug3 & wiper shorted)
(it reduces Q1 gain..)
Before implementing it, try with another 150k or so resistor in parallel with the existing 150k one to see if it pleases you.. :icon_wink:
Another way is to take-off 150k resistor, wire Volume pot lug 3 to Output, lug 1 on GND and take output from wiper..
what type of pot would i use tho? like what value and taper would i use.
100k Linear should be OK..
Oh.
My.
God.
I was just scrolling through the threads and saw this one. 19 pages on a phaser debug? Surely something more interesting is going on here, let's have a look! But no! It really is 19 pages of phaser debugging. This thread may be the most meaningful piece of Postmodernen art I have ever seen. And I mean that sincerely, not in the derisive way contemporary reactionary circles try to redefine the term. It is glorious! Thanks everyone for participating in this Postmodernen take on the Labors of Hercules!
Andy
in 26 years of building pedals and reading forums ive never seen such a rude bunch of people, well done slowpoke for helping, the rest of you should question why your even here if all you do is poke fun at someone who is learning, this has always been a community of helpful intelligent people and its horrible to see so many rude aholes offering nothing but insults infecting the community, who could blame him for pulling out random parts when you were mostly no help, i question why some of you are even allowed to be a part of this community. If you arent going to share knowledge or help newcomers you have no business being here.
This thread is one more data-point in why I absolutely loathe using stripboard.
Quote..... who could blame him for pulling out random parts when you were mostly no help, i question why some of you are even allowed to be a part of this community.
having observed a large number of members at this site, I can safely say that user snow123 has an eye like a dead fish. it doesn't matter how much we sledge him, how "rude" [your term] we are in our replies, he carries on with narry a blink, never complains we are picking on him, always takes our replies with the same good-humoured outlook. you might check some of his latest posts, DekkerFuzz, see how badly our behaviour has marked him.
and while I have you here reading this, tell me - if I come to you and ask for your help with some or other problem, and you provide plenty and good advise, and I then demonstrate that I've completely ignored all you have said and continued blindly on my original path, and provided none of the feedback or information you may have requested from me, which of us is the rude party, me for my - what? boorish non-interaction? - or you for your replies, whatever their form?
asking for a friend who also doesn't like vero.
Quote from: DekkerFuzz on July 21, 2023, 12:24:59 PM
If you arent going to share knowledge or help newcomers you have no business being here.
And you're speaking on behalf of "here"..??
P.S.
"Rudeness" definitely is personal taste mater..
I'd define it using your very personal instance.. :icon_wink:
+1 to support my friends Stephen and Antonis and the others supposedly "taking the piss" in this and snow's other threads from this period.
Seldom in life have I seen such dogged determination in the face of all obstacles — doggedly determined both to continue asking for advice to solve their problems as well as to ignore or misconstrue almost every single piece of that well-intentioned and painstakingly-communicated advice which well might have solved the problem, had snow followed it accurately and/or reported the whole situation fully and accurately to begin with. We have all been beginners once, and I have great empathy for those starting out on this difficult journey (and though I started many decades ago, I'm not very far along myself, and so I too am but a beginner); but some people stubbornly refuse to be taught. The fact that snow has never lashed out or otherwise seemed injured or offended in turn, as duck points out, is actually something just short of miraculous and deserves to be at least acknowledged (if not exactly full-throatedly commended).
As someone with fairly severe lifelong difficulties with both comprehending and communicating in a straightforward, unambiguous manner (part of my rather diffident and overly-pretentious writing style is due to overcompensating for this), I can recognise when I've been bested. Snow123, my hat's off to you. This thread is a masterclass for the ages.
(My understanding is that snow's gotten slightly better since these dark days, but I've tended to avoid those threads since then, if for no other reason other than to save what little is left of my sanity. :icon_eek:
Also, I just utterly destroyed a recent vero attempt — possibly the worst soldering job I've ever done in over 35 years of trying — and was/am far too embarrassed at how badly I mucked it up, to the degree that, rather than ask for help here, I'm resigned to just pulling all of the components off of it that I can, chucking it in the skip and starting over some other — ANY other — way, even if I have to do it point-to-point. It worked great on the breadboard, of course. Vero can be a total tar baby sinkhole pit of doom...)
Well said. Drinks for Snow123 and all those who have contributed to the Snow's success!
QuoteSeldom in life have I seen such dogged determination in the face of all obstacles —
Here here. I have often wondered if 123 is some kind of bot... but in the end I have come to believe in their humanity. Why, I'm not sure.
QuoteThe fact that snow has never lashed out or otherwise seemed injured or offended in turn, as duck points out, is actually something just short of miraculous
Word. Here's to life's little miracles.
^^ What they said. Gotta love our pal snow. :)