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DIY Stompboxes => Building your own stompbox => Topic started by: amz-fx on February 12, 2004, 06:58:14 PM

Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: amz-fx on February 12, 2004, 06:58:14 PM
Here is the bottom of a Way Huge pcb...

(http://209.124.248.167/misc/WayHuge_pcb1.jpg)

What's so interesting about this?  The IC is unmarked but from the layout I can guess that pins 4 and 11 are for the V+ and V- power connections...  but if you can locate the IC in the middle of the board, you'll see that neither of these pins are connected to anything!!!

Anyone want to take a guess what's happening here???

-Jack
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Steve C on February 12, 2004, 07:24:08 PM
Hey, the other side of the Swollen Pickle!
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Ry on February 12, 2004, 08:02:28 PM
My guess would be that it's a suprious component thrown in to stop people from tracing the effect and making clones.

Please let me know if I'm wrong, but I can't think of a way that an IC could work without electrons flowing...

Ry
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Mr.Huge on February 12, 2004, 08:09:56 PM
I can!
But it's so much fun to watch y'all struggle with such a simple little thing.
-Mr. Huge
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: amz-fx on February 12, 2004, 08:48:03 PM
Quote
Please let me know if I'm wrong, but I can't think of a way that an IC could work without electrons flowing...

You're wrong...  :)  hint - there are bias resistors on the inputs and outputs...

actually I played around with an idea like this but never got it working well...

-JACK
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Rory on February 12, 2004, 08:50:52 PM
Its not acting as a transistor?
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Steve C on February 12, 2004, 10:06:56 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's acting like a rectifier?
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Peter Snowberg on February 13, 2004, 01:27:30 AM
Very cute Mr. Huge. ;)

I think I know what the trick is, but I would need to see the top to confirm my suspicion.

It's not the sort of thing you would want to do with a chip that supplies any real power if I have it correctly.

This is the first time I've seen the concept used in an actual product.

Take care,
-Peter
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: KarbonHed on February 13, 2004, 05:17:59 AM
Is it something like a 4007 with the individual mosfets used as clipping "diodes"?
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Paul Perry (Frostwave) on February 13, 2004, 05:45:49 AM
Since some chips have 'protection' diodes from input & output pins to power rails, if you leave the "official" power pins disconnecrted, sometimes yu can get the chip to work.
I had a logic chip in a turned pin socket once, and one turned pin collar was missing! the chip leg (V+ as it happened!) just floated there, while the chip acted a bit flakey.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Dan N on February 13, 2004, 07:41:46 AM
(http://users.rio.com/senorris/junk/wayhugesp.jpg)
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: amz-fx on February 13, 2004, 08:26:04 AM
Most of the opamp sections have voltages like this:

Inverting input:  0.67v
Noninverting:    25mv
Output pin:    4.7v

The inverting input is essentially a diode drop above ground and the noninverting is connected to ground through a 100 ohm resistor, so it's not surprising it is almost 0.   The pullup resistor on the output and the internal circuitry are balancing the output near 1/2 V+.

Knowing what the opamp could be is the key to understanding this...  :D

regards, Jack
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Paul Perry (Frostwave) on February 13, 2004, 08:46:03 AM
This is why I was glad mr Huge didn't post the schematics... this way we're going to LEARN something! :D
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Ed Rembold on February 13, 2004, 10:12:37 AM
a 4069 perhaps?

Ed R.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Aharon on February 13, 2004, 10:37:09 AM
If I want to know what's inside of an effects box I go and rent it for $10 a month at my local music store.
Aharon
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: RDV on February 13, 2004, 10:44:24 AM
Most boutique builders sand off the old ICs or smother them in goop, so renting does you little to no good.

Regards

RDV
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Chris R on February 13, 2004, 10:46:20 AM
4069 hex inverter has a different pinout than most 14 pin quad op amps..

which would mean.. that the unused pins on the 4069 were

output #2 & input #5

(http://www.circuitspecialists.com/products/3087.gif)
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Aharon on February 13, 2004, 11:40:06 AM
"Most boutique builders sand off the old ICs or smother them in goop, so renting does you little to no good. "
RDV


Some do some don't,older effects certainly don't have that problem.
Aharon
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Ed Rembold on February 13, 2004, 12:07:23 PM
My only other guess would be a transistor array chip,
making it a BMP like thing?
I dunno,  love the surface mount pulldown R.


Ed R.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Mr.Huge on February 13, 2004, 02:04:26 PM
You are very wise Grasshopper.
But answer me this… Why does the universe appear to have one time and three space dimensions?
Ha..HA..HAHAH…HA!
-Mr. Huge
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: R.G. on February 13, 2004, 02:10:57 PM
OK, chirren, so what reasonably common effects chip has a V- pin, but no power or ground and is not a transistor array chip?
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: AL on February 13, 2004, 03:48:16 PM
Any more pictures of this one?  I think one of the pictures posted is a reverse and it's slightly confusing??  

An LM3900 is a quad amp 14 pin - Pins 4 and 11 are outputs, Pin 14 is V+ and Pin 7 is ground.  That's probably nowhere near being correct but it is a common chip.  Maybe something from Craig Anderton or The Stompbox Cookbook?

AL
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: AL on February 13, 2004, 03:51:46 PM
Ooops sorry I meant the LM3900 WAS a common chip.  It was discontinued in 1999?

AL
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: RDV on February 13, 2004, 03:55:36 PM
AAWWW common Mr. Huge, at the very least let us have this one so we can flood eBay with copies and make a few much needed sawbucks off the 'pedaphoools' that shop there. :wink:  :wink:  :wink:  :wink:  :wink:

I'm only serious

RDV
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: R.G. on February 13, 2004, 04:56:13 PM
Quote
Ooops sorry I meant the LM3900 WAS a common chip. It was discontinued in 1999?

The MC3401 is still in production, pin and functionally equivalent. But that ain't the chip in question.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Tim Escobedo on February 13, 2004, 05:29:34 PM
long shot: MC1496

It's a weird chip to play with, kinda like a peculiar transistor array.

Then again, it's not really that common in effects but more in synth circuits.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: puretube on February 13, 2004, 06:04:31 PM
isn`t the 1496 a double-balanced -modulator?
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: amz-fx on February 13, 2004, 06:47:49 PM
The CD4007 is the only common 14 pin chip that I can think of that doesn't have power input pins...  it has P- and N-substrates but no real power pins...  but that's not what this chip is.

It's not an LM3900...

It might be an LM324 so that is what I'll test soon...  

I've contracted friggin' bronchitis and had to go to the doctor yesterday so it's got me slowed down for now...  that and the fact that wives expect you to pay attention to them on Valentine's Day...  hey! we got a Way Huge pedal open here, honey.  We'll eat out another time!  :D :D

regards, Jack
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Mike Burgundy on February 13, 2004, 07:06:55 PM
Best of health to ya, Jack! (and a place that sells 1000 roses for $15 ;D )
Just have to say that this is a *very* interesting thread. Great example of multi-personal intelligence working it's magic, plus the rest of us is learning something. My list of options has (very early) been depleted, but seeing what someone else comes up with is still stirring ideas.

LESSON TO ALL:
never, NEVER stop asking "why?"

a big-Bambi-eyed, innocent face helps with this, I find ;)
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: troubledtom on February 13, 2004, 07:19:25 PM
wishing you the best jack!!!
          - tom
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Ed Rembold on February 13, 2004, 07:35:15 PM
Jack,
I hope you feel better real soon...
That "wives/valentines/WayHuge" comment had me laughing
outloud!

Thanks,
Ed R.
Title: This should help immensely
Post by: Skreddy on February 13, 2004, 07:43:09 PM
I've matched up the parts layout with the copper traces fairly accurately in PaintShop Pro as layers.  If you have this software or PhotoShop, you can do the same using the jpegs I've posted.  Also chip pinout and preliminary schematic suggestions.  

See http://happybob.com/marc/circuits/WayHuge/
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: amz-fx on February 13, 2004, 08:23:31 PM
Quote
That "wives/valentines/WayHuge" comment had me laughing outloud!

I'm glad somebody laughed because the ole lady didn't!!!  :)

The TL074 did not work and I don't have an LM324 on hand...  guess I have to hit  R-Shack tomorrow.

-Jack
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: amz-fx on February 13, 2004, 08:28:32 PM
I don't think it's a 4069 hex inverter either...

-Jack
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Mr.Huge on February 13, 2004, 08:37:00 PM
Wow!
Who would a thunk a knucklehead like me could stump a community of intelligent electronic effects specialist.
Come on… It’s easier than you could possibly imagine.
Use the force young Jedi’s…

BEN: This time, let go your conscious self and act on instinct.

LUKE: (laughing) With the blast shield down, I can't even see. How am
I supposed to fight?

BEN: Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them.

Cheers,
-Mr. Huge
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Mr.Huge on February 13, 2004, 08:43:53 PM
BEN: These are not the (droids) IC’s your looking for.

TROOPER: These are not the (droids) IC’s we're looking for.

BEN: (He) Huge can go about his business.

TROOPER: (You) Huge can go about your business.

BEN: Move along.

TROOPER: Move along. Move along.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Peter Snowberg on February 13, 2004, 08:51:31 PM
:lol:  :lol:  :lol: Mr.Huge, it's great to have you here! 8)

Jack, I hope you are well soon.

Take care,
-Peter
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Steve C on February 13, 2004, 08:53:57 PM
We know it's a modified BMP so, what about a quad transistor like a MAT04?  The pinout matches ( 4 and 11 ).  http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/524850917MAT04_d.pdf
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Mr.Huge on February 13, 2004, 08:55:07 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot... Sorry... Feel better Jack. I'm finally feeling better after my NAMM flu!
Cheers,
-Mr. Huge
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Ed Rembold on February 13, 2004, 10:10:38 PM
A long shot I'm sure-

LM/CA3046

Ed R.

( it might be entertaining to make a BMP from a CA3046 )
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Steve C on February 13, 2004, 10:30:39 PM
Quote from: Ed Rembold
A long shot I'm sure-

LM/CA3046

Ed R.

( it might be entertaining to make a BMP from a CA3046 )


http://www.intersil.com/data/fn/fn341.pdf
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: amz-fx on February 14, 2004, 12:27:32 AM
Scratch the LM324...

CA3138 or MAT04 or similar is the answer...

:)  -Jack
Title: Where's it getting power from?
Post by: RobB on February 14, 2004, 07:18:48 AM
Quote
Most of the opamp sections have voltages like this:

Inverting input: 0.67v
Noninverting: 25mv
Output pin: 4.7v

Am I correct in assuming that pins 14 and 7 both have DC voltages of 4.7?  
Which two pins have the highest and lowest DC voltages?  

If this chip is amplifying then we need to know where the power is coming in.  At the moment I’m trying to rule out 4000 series CMOS chips like the 4041 complement buffer.  

A schematic which illustrates the mystery chip as a black box would be very helpful at this point.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: AL on February 14, 2004, 09:07:32 AM
I think the pinout for the CA3138 is similar to the CA3046.  The MAT04 has pins 4 and 11 internally connected.

http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/524850917MAT04_d.pdf

I hope your feeling better Jack and Happy Valentine's Day everyone - now I get to go move furniture.

AL
Title: Too Funny...
Post by: petemoore on February 14, 2004, 09:44:01 AM
The Huge Guy has us sorting out his pickles...
  This is great practice with Easter coming up !!!
  THe TRUE answers for all your questions come from within....now if I can just find the Right question...
  Well I trust that WH aka Mr Huge has hidden the prized egg where it can be found, though it may be necessary to summon all you energies together to find it, and be certain it IS the magic egg...
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Fp-www.Tonepad.com on February 14, 2004, 10:29:46 AM
Can it be possible that the power connections are NOT made on the copper side of the pcb?
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Joep on February 14, 2004, 11:26:07 AM
I traced out most of the schematic. The IC definately must me a "4 transistor in a DIL-14 packege". Because if you see the schem it looks very much like a Big Muff Pi.

Bye,

Joep
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: smoguzbenjamin on February 14, 2004, 11:39:10 AM
If it's a modded BMP I'd say a transistor array. But that's a wild guess. Moreover check this out:

(http://happybob.com/marc/circuits/WayHuge/SwollenPickleParts.jpg)

No other transistors there either. ;)
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Skreddy on February 14, 2004, 12:43:26 PM
joep, would you like to 'donate' your schematic tracing (to be posted on my Way Huge page)?
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: R.G. on February 14, 2004, 01:05:26 PM
OK, had some time to look. It's a big muff pi, using what's probably the MPQ2222 quad transistor package. See Central Semiconductors web page for the pinout of the MPQxxxx series devices.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Joep on February 14, 2004, 01:07:29 PM
What do you guys think?

(http://home.planet.nl/~joep.remkes/pickle/picklesch.gif)
(http://home.planet.nl/~joep.remkes/pickle/pickletop.jpg)

So the IC definately must be a 4 transistor thingy in a DIL14. But what's the type......

Bye,

Joep
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: puretube on February 14, 2004, 01:22:22 PM
build a copy with IC-socket, download W. Jung`s IC Array Cookbook...
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Tim Escobedo on February 14, 2004, 01:34:13 PM
Quote from: puretube
build a copy with IC-socket, download W. Jung`s IC Array Cookbook...


Download?!?!
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Mr.Huge on February 14, 2004, 03:06:06 PM
The FORCE is stong with this one (RG).



Nice Schematic Joep!



-Mr. Huge
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Joep on February 14, 2004, 03:18:20 PM
Thanks Mr. Huge!

I like really like your attitude towards this!!

The Way Huge stuff is not really known in Europe (at least not to my knowledge) I went through the Way Huge website and I really like the effects.

Best regards,

Joep
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: csj on February 14, 2004, 03:57:30 PM
This is undoubtedly the coolest thread I've ever read.
Title: This is why the Forum ROCKS!!!
Post by: petemoore on February 14, 2004, 05:37:20 PM
I think it is quite nice that Mr. Huge participated in this thread.
  Like any Great mystery story, this one has a a nice resolution with a new twist at the end...very nice indeed.
  Great Vibes Abound in Starque Reality !!!
Title: Is there a Pickle in the Muff?
Post by: petemoore on February 14, 2004, 05:42:50 PM
Or is that Muff in a Pickle?
  I would like to create something close to that Famous and quite sought after flavor at home.
  Now that I can have it, I want it !!!
  WaY CooL !!!
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: cd on February 14, 2004, 05:55:09 PM
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/2300to2399/NTE2321.html
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/2300to2399/NTE2322.html
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/2300to2399/NTE2323.html
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/900to999/NTE912.html
Title: what is it
Post by: dr on February 14, 2004, 06:10:20 PM
......is it a CA3046 or CA3096?.......
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: amz-fx on February 14, 2004, 08:30:37 PM
Motorola MPQ3904   is the actual device.

Correct Mr. Huge?  :)

regards, Jack
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: bobbletrox on February 14, 2004, 11:13:39 PM
Next; the Red Llama Overdrive  :o

*JOKE*
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Tim Escobedo on February 15, 2004, 02:04:09 AM
The most interesting thing about this whole exercize for me is that i took Jack's and R.G.'s remarks on the first two pages to mean that they had eliminated the possibility of a transistor array and had something truly unusual.

I must say, I was kinda disappointed.  :(
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Joep on February 15, 2004, 05:08:06 AM
I guess the MPQ2222 and MPQ3904 contain 4 of the 2N2222/2N3904 transistors? So using separate trannies within the specs of the chip will get you there.

Is somebody able to fill in the partlist, according to the pin numbering in my schem? Some of the values are hard to read read.

Bye,

Joep
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: amz-fx on February 15, 2004, 05:53:20 AM
Quote
I must say, I was kinda disappointed.

Considering that it took less than 24 hours to get the chip identified, I was happy...  the pin config just happened to match the standard quad opamp layout and the logical idea was that the chip was being powered up in some unusual fashion, but certainly nothing was eliminated.  It didn't match the arrays I had in the databook handy but once I dug out an old RCA manual and found the CA3138, it matched up exactly and I knew that was the chip style.

The MPQ3904 is the one used, though the MPQ2222, CA3138 or MAT04 would all work in this circuit....  sort of like subbing 2N5088 for 2N3904s...

regards, Jack
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Joep on February 15, 2004, 06:25:58 AM
Hi All,

I made a few corrections to the schem I published.
- The first transistor had the wrong pinnumbers
- Added C1
- I fixed the "black box" symbols with transistor symbols.

Check my previous post  here (http://diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=18837&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50)
http://diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=18837&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50

Bye,

Joep
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: bobbletrox on February 15, 2004, 07:34:03 AM
--
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: amz-fx on February 15, 2004, 09:13:11 AM
bobbletrox,  the very bottom right pad connects to a resistor then the other end of the resistor is not connected on your drawing.  It should connect to that large pad to its left.

regards, Jack
Title: Jack - Could you post resistor and cap values on Pickle?
Post by: MR COFFEE on February 15, 2004, 03:57:20 PM
Hi Jack,
The pictures are great, but the values are hard to decipher. Could you post a parts list from your unit?

I'd be glad to add them to Joep's schematic. :D

Thanks,
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Peter Snowberg on February 15, 2004, 04:11:08 PM
I sure got fooled. :D

I was thinking the same thing Paul Perry was about using protection diodes, but the picture of the top didn't seem to agree with that.


You could use separate transistors, but the cool thing about the arrays is that they're all VERY matched. With discrete devices your mileage is going to vary quite a bit. I'm imagining that while absolute Hfe is important, the relative Hfe is probably just as important between a couple of the devices. Maybe I'm totally wrong too. :)

What a cool thread. 8)

Take care,
-Peter
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: smoguzbenjamin on February 15, 2004, 04:34:17 PM
Hmmm. Any 2 transistor packages around?
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: idlefaction on February 15, 2004, 05:26:28 PM
heh, it was a good effort, but that pic of the top of the board hasn't got enough detail to get the values.  if someone actually has a swollen pickle, i'd suggest grabbing joe's schem and the pic he did with the component numbers, and listing out all the values.

don't forget the caps  ;)

i'm most interested in the tone control cos Mr Huge's is the best BMP tone control i've heard!   :)  i like the clipping in my BMP moreso than the pickle tho, i've staggered the bass response to go from not much in the earlier stages to normal in the last stage.  totally different sound, it's not apples and apples.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: bobbletrox on February 15, 2004, 06:22:30 PM
Quote from: amz-fx
bobbletrox,  the very bottom right pad connects to a resistor then the other end of the resistor is not connected on your drawing.  It should connect to that large pad to its left.

regards, Jack


It looks like those two pads are connected by a jumper...so I just left it like the original.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: amz-fx on February 15, 2004, 07:27:31 PM
Quote from: bobbletrox
It looks like those two pads are connected by a jumper...so I just left it like the original.

There is a pcb trace under there...

I'll post a parts list, but only if Mr. Huge has no objection.  Otherwise you could use the part values from the BMP.

regards, Jack
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: bobbletrox on February 15, 2004, 07:57:18 PM
Quote from: amz-fx
There is a pcb trace under there...


Oh!  Ok...fixed it.  :o
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Chris R on February 15, 2004, 08:40:32 PM
Quote from: amz-fx
Quote from: bobbletrox
It looks like those two pads are connected by a jumper...so I just left it like the original.

There is a pcb trace under there...

I'll post a parts list, but only if Mr. Huge has no objection.  Otherwise you could use the part values from the BMP.

regards, Jack


maybe it could by by email/pm request only.

Chris R
Title: bobbletrox PCB reversed
Post by: MR COFFEE on February 15, 2004, 09:07:43 PM
Bobbletrox,
I believe the PCB you have drawn up is reversed - is that intended so folks can use PnP methods? Jack's post has been reversed, presumably to make tracing easier, and your layout matches Jack's picture.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Mr.Huge on February 15, 2004, 09:22:35 PM
Aloha All,
Like I’ve said before… I have no problem if you reverse engineer and create YOUR OWN schematic and PCB… But…
Please cease and desist the distribution of Way Huge Electronics copyrighted material.
Copyright laws protect the PCB layout that has been posted (didn’t you see the “C”?). Please remove the Swollen Pickle PCB layout (trace side) from the site post haste.
Thank you.
RG you can post a parts list but please … (everyone)… refrain from using my trademarked material and copyrighted material without any disclaimer that say it does not belong to you. Posting copies of a PCB layout (that is protected) without written consent is illegal.
You guys need to be more careful.  
-Mr. Huge
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: idlefaction on February 15, 2004, 09:25:41 PM
right!  anyone got a pics of the guts of a Line 6 Pod?  ;)
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: bobbletrox on February 15, 2004, 09:32:50 PM
I took the PCB layout down  :oops:
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Mr.Huge on February 15, 2004, 09:56:44 PM
Sorry to rant…
Thanks for being respectful.
Cheers,
-Mr. Huge

PS. Idlefaction, POD belongs to Line 6, Inc. Not me.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: csj on February 16, 2004, 12:56:50 AM
self censored.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: bobbletrox on February 16, 2004, 01:44:34 AM
How do you figure, csj?  Mr.Huge said he doesn't have a problem with the parts list being posted, and you could come up with your own PCB artwork using the schematic Joep posted too.  I just need a read up on copyright law!  I didn't mean to ruin the thread  :oops:
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: bwanasonic on February 16, 2004, 02:22:15 AM
I think it was pretty clear where this thread was going once the *mystery* was solved. I think "Mr. Huge" just wanted to remind everyone not to get carried away. I appreciate the fact that he encourages the spirit of *figure it out* , but is understandably not too keen on distribution of replicas. I was a bit suprised he played along after the initial scan of the trace side of the board was posted.

Kerry M
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: smoguzbenjamin on February 16, 2004, 09:22:58 AM
I think it's only fair to say that this post was 'for educational purposes only' ;)
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Aharon on February 16, 2004, 11:16:30 AM
Quote from: Mr.Huge
Aloha All,
Like I’ve said before… I have no problem if you reverse engineer and create YOUR OWN schematic and PCB… But…
Please cease and desist the distribution of Way Huge Electronics copyrighted material.
Copyright laws protect the PCB layout that has been posted (didn’t you see the “C”?). Please remove the Swollen Pickle PCB layout (trace side) from the site post haste.
Thank you.
RG you can post a parts list but please … (everyone)… refrain from using my trademarked material and copyrighted material without any disclaimer that say it does not belong to you. Posting copies of a PCB layout (that is protected) without written consent is illegal.
You guys need to be more careful.  
-Mr. Huge


I guess this is a heck of a lot more than you would get out of ZVex.This is CLASS.
Aharon
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: mattv on February 16, 2004, 11:34:27 AM
Quote from: Aharon

I guess this is a heck of a lot more than you would get out of ZVex.This is CLASS.
Aharon


Not really a fair comparison.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Aharon on February 16, 2004, 11:44:17 AM
Quote from: mattv
Quote from: Aharon

I guess this is a heck of a lot more than you would get out of ZVex.This is CLASS.
Aharon


Not really a fair comparison.



Probably not....for the reasons I gave above,but I'd be interested in your take of why not.
Aharon
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Ed G. on February 16, 2004, 11:45:36 AM
[quote="AharonI guess this is a heck of a lot more than you would get out of ZVex.This is CLASS.
Aharon[/quote]

That's really uncalled for.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: mattv on February 16, 2004, 12:01:03 PM
Quote from: Aharon

Probably not....for the reasons I gave above,but I'd be interested in your take of why not.
Aharon


AFAIK, Z's pedals are still in production. That makes a big difference to me. If you don't see it, oh well. The issue isn't decided by you or me.

I'm happy for Way Huge and Zvex both.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Fret Wire on February 16, 2004, 12:18:29 PM
Mr. Huge showed a lot of class and diplomacy in this thread. Being that his PCB is copyright protected, he was under no obligation to be reasonable or polite about it. Yet he handled, and participated in the thread, and made it an educational class, until it reached a point. Then he pointed out the legalities of posting his property. The forum respected that, and Mr. Huge will still probably share his expertise with us from time to time.  

In another forum, if he had been adversarial, his property could have been pasted all over cyberspace. On some forums, they don't show basic respect to each other, let alone an effects builder. This forum, no doubt, would have respected his wishes regardless of his tone. This reflects well on Aron, and everyone on this forum.

Two class acts together made this one interesting thread. Thanks Mr. Huge!
Title: Ah, ... could we get back to circuitry, folks?
Post by: MR COFFEE on February 16, 2004, 01:01:36 PM
Dear Compadres,

I respect everybody and you all make good points about personalities, legalities, realities of reverse-engineered products, etc., etc.

But could we get back to what makes this particular Big Muff Pi clone/variation different besides it uses a quad transistor array? (Which I suspect was to save on assembly cost, i.e., - insert 1 component instead of 4, no lead forming required.) Right, Mr. H?  :wink:

Like, for instance...

It appears that Mr. Huge may have modded the tone control values, although the unit may be a pure clone of an EH unit Mr. Huge reverse-engineered (EH often changed component values according to what parts were readily available at the time of manufacture, and there are at least 5 distinct schematics I have seen).

Looks like this Way Huge unit uses a .047 uf cap in the bass end of the tone control network with a - help us out here, Jack - 33K - resistor, instead of the usual .01 uf and 39K used on most of the EH units I've seen.

And it looks like maybe a .01 to .22 uf monolythic ceramic bypass cap in the treble end with a 22K resistor, instead of the usual .004 uf and 39K used on most of the EH units I've seen. (Note the part outline was apparently for a physically larger film cap originally. Perhaps EH isn't the only manufacturer to make opportunistic changes based on what is available :shock: )

This shifts the tone control function - Dave Cigna's tone stack calculator shows the differences in the tone-shaping curves.

It'd be nice to know what the correct values are for the components instead of guessing, though. (Pretty please, Jack? Or Mr. Huge, if you remember? Hey, I don't remember a lot of detail from 1985!  :lol: )

Thanks to all for a stimulating discussion. I've never heard or seen a Way Huge anything, but sounds like some of you that have heard one thought they were something special. Let's see why :)
Title: Data Sheet?
Post by: petemoore on February 16, 2004, 01:16:54 PM
I got an NTE2321, T-NPN, Si, Quad, General purpose amp.
  It's an NTE cross for a MPQ3904.
  On a similar note, I'm planning to use this as the amplifying stages of a BMP. Yes I know they get dogged, I have a transistor version thats 'lackluster', and have tried OA BM's with little to no usable results.
  I'ts interesting that this is the first mention of these "multi Q chips" I've read about...
  So the questions...is there another chip with the same pinout and very similar data sheet I can look at?
  I'm having troubles...the NTE Data/Cross ref page wont come up, and the resolution on the NTE package is much less than readable...now I have a chip look like it says under pins 1-7 respectively:
  C B E* N* C L* B C
 aND PINS 1-8:
  CBFN*CE*BC
  *...intelligible characters
  To use a transistor in this package style would require just making connections as one would with a Bipolar transisor...just pick one of the quads EBC connections, and make them where say a 3904 or 5088 would  be made in a ckt?
  The only Hfe marks say 100 min. , anyone familiar enough with this particular chip to say if it would work alike in a 2N5088 or 2N5089 substitution?
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: R.G. on February 16, 2004, 02:28:01 PM
The use of a transistor array in a BMP circuit confers no particular advantage or disadvantage that I can see.

1) The transistors are not necessarily matched in arrays. Some maker guarantee matching, some don't.
2) Matching is not a useful parameter in the BMP circuit. The two distortion stages are "matched" by the input resistors and feedback elements, and the distortion diodes wipe out any particular effects the transistors might have by disallowing banging into the power supplies.
3) Insertion labor costs are not going to make or break a device like this, especially in the under-one-million production levels.

Near as I can tell, the use of an array might make for lower hand labor and fewer mistakes, as the array works every possible way you can insert it into the board, even including top and bottom, so there might be some advantage there, but it's not particularly cost of parts, especially where 2N3904's are as cheap as they are and MPQxxxx's are as unusual as they are.

I believe that the difference is in layout only. You could technically use that same layout and simply insert EBC transistors like the 2N3904, 2N4401, 2N4124, 2N5210, 2N5088, BC549, etc in the right three pins of the IC footprint.

I can't speak to the motivations for actually picking the array; it may have been because there was a large, cheap lot of MPQ's available, or simply because they're not a common chip and that would confuse a beginner tracer for a few minutes.
Title: Anyway...
Post by: petemoore on February 16, 2004, 02:53:22 PM
Sitting on this silly NTE IC with no legible pinout info or datasheet...
  If the MPQ3904 is the work alike with same pinout...who makes that?
  maybe I could get some usable data from another source for the NTE chip...
Title: Re: Ah, ... could we get back to circuitry, folks?
Post by: bwanasonic on February 16, 2004, 03:40:12 PM
Quote from: MR COFFEE

Looks like this Way Huge unit uses a .047 uf cap in the bass end of the tone control network


Just fooling with these values in the Duncan Tone Stack Calculator, and it seems like being able to switch between 10n and 47n would be a useful *mid-notch* mod (maybe a push-pull pot). This cap may even be the single most defining difference between the BMP and the Pickle soundwise. More so than the *mystery chip*?

Kerry M
Title: The Mystery is the pinout...
Post by: petemoore on February 16, 2004, 04:29:36 PM
I can get no pinout information from NTE guy, NTE website, nor the NTE Book [I could find no diagram #247], The markings on the NTE package are illegible...Nte's not doing very for me well today...
  I can/t figure aout a cross ref...MPQ3904...anyone know who makes it?
  Any other cross reference data with pinout like an NTE2321 would be very helpful at this stage..
Title: Re: The Mystery is the pinout...
Post by: cd on February 16, 2004, 04:37:05 PM
Quote from: petemoore
I can get no pinout information from NTE guy, NTE website, nor the NTE Book [I could find no diagram #247], The markings on the NTE package are illegible...Nte's not doing very for me well today...
  I can/t figure aout a cross ref...MPQ3904...anyone know who makes it?
  Any other cross reference data with pinout like an NTE2321 would be very helpful at this stage..


What are you talking about, the pinout is right here:

http://www.nteinc.com/specs/2300to2399/NTE2321.html

There should be a notch or a dot on the chip so you can orient it properly.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: idlefaction on February 16, 2004, 05:37:38 PM
i usually find google does a way better job of letting me find data sheets than manufacturers websites.  i generally just go

google.com

NTE2321 data sheet
Title: Thanks Darren
Post by: petemoore on February 16, 2004, 06:26:37 PM
I'll try google like that next time first...
  cd, thanks it's quite clear now that I've accessed it [don't know why nont of the other methods didn't work...]
  4 and 11 are NC, with EBC on all the other pins working from the middle out with the emitters toward the middle...pretty simple...
  I think I may just go ahead with a BM build using the Quad Chip, unless there are other issues like Hfe...this one on the package says minimum 100...I guess thats sufficient for the resistors in the BM circuit to set the gain...[?]
  Then if this chip has a common pinout to other Quad Q chips, with different data, I should be able to do Q swaps...four at a time !!!!
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: computerjones on February 16, 2004, 06:45:34 PM
you can also put single transistors into a socket instead of the chip, or chip + trans for mondo piggy back.  have fun!
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: idlefaction on February 16, 2004, 07:00:28 PM
heh, if i was doing another bmp i'd quite like to use piggybacked transistors.  i've always preferred the sound of a bmp with lower gain transistors.  i wish i could quantify why.

perhaps 'dead bug' styling two of those xistor array chips, and using surface mount 5k6 resistors between the legs for the piggy resistors...  *grin*
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: computerjones on February 16, 2004, 07:03:23 PM
you could piggyback 2 of these chips, one on each side of the board....
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: idlefaction on February 16, 2004, 07:07:30 PM
cj, did you see the wicked thread a while back on piggybacking transistors?  it was quite interesting:

http://www.diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=17513
Title: Yes
Post by: petemoore on February 16, 2004, 07:19:00 PM
I have 3 [or is it four now] Stompboxes with pig technology in them.
  Having pigs in your box IS a good thing.
  EZ for me to tag an R [small 1k-10k] on an emitter and flatten the scheize out of bottom of the leads and scrunch two leads into one socket hole...I use the sharp knife or chisel to 'grab' the lead right next to the socket and push it in.
Title: Re: low-gain transistors in BMPs...
Post by: Skreddy on February 16, 2004, 09:45:39 PM
I'll give you all the benefit of my knowlege gained by lots of subbing in search of the magic of the original triangle-knob version...

The magic number is 35.  Choose transistors with a minimum gain of (exactly) 35, and you'll find that balance between articulation & touch-sensitivity and creaminess and hair that the circa 1971 models had.  

On the other hand...

You can get really very nice results by using a common 2N5088 in the #1 position and common germanium NPNs (NTE101) in positions 2 and 3 (clipping), then decide which you like best in the tone-recovery/output stage.

Re: Tone stack values... I think the mid notch of the Pickle probably sounds great in the middle position, but I bet it sounds way too dark in the bass direction.  A toggle or an AMZ 'mid' control would be cool.  I kinda like the old BMP's values of .004uf / 33k on the treble side and 33k / .01uf on the bass side.  Sounds very much like a speaker emulation to me, with lots of useable settings all around.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: bobbletrox on February 16, 2004, 10:15:38 PM
Will replacing transistors with an array become known as "pulling a Way Huge"?  :o

I didn't know those ICs even existed before this thread...are there 8-pin 2 transistor versions too?
Title: YES
Post by: Mr.Huge on February 16, 2004, 10:30:47 PM
Yes there is a Santa... Dual Transistor Array:
http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/410572853MAT02_e.pdf

I'm sure there are others.

http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM194.pdf

The LM394 is what is used in discrete op-amps like the 990.

http://www.johnhardyco.com/pdf/990.pdf

-Mr. Huge
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: bobbletrox on February 16, 2004, 10:45:01 PM
Great!  The LM394N looks definitly worth checking out.

Thanks Jeorge.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: idlefaction on February 16, 2004, 10:48:19 PM
Skreddy - heh, you can use two 2N3904's piggied with an emitter resistor of about 820 ohms to get a gain of 35.  it's different for every pair of Q's, but there ya go.  :)
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Fret Wire on February 16, 2004, 11:28:28 PM
Pete, is this what you're looking for? Found it on Mouser

http://www.nteinc.com/specs/2300to2399/pdf/nte2321.pdf
Title: Yupp..that's it !!!
Post by: petemoore on February 17, 2004, 05:51:56 AM
Thanks !!!
  I don't know why not...the NTE site may be down...the page that did come up looked different.
  Yes much easier to work with an active component when the pinout is verified...lol.
  Pretty easy to remem...just pick a corner...there's a collector...the two middle pins dont connect...emitters toward the middle...CBE...no problem !!!
  I paid like 3$ for the thing...so I'll be using it for something !!
Title: Triple Passivation !!!
Post by: petemoore on February 17, 2004, 06:36:40 AM
And exclusive Silicon Nitride !!!
  Interesting, the dual chip seems to boast low noise [I'm sure there's a low noise quad] ..may be just the  thing for a BMP...
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: bobbletrox on February 17, 2004, 07:30:04 AM
...and these arrays can replace transistors like 2N5088s ect without any further tweaking to the circuit?  :?
Title: Bm Q gains...
Post by: petemoore on February 17, 2004, 07:46:30 AM
Im seeing 5089s and 5088's specified for the BM ckt.
  The Quad pack I have here only specifies Hfe as 100 min...
  Perhaps I use the plug/socket I made from a piece of perf, three R leads, and three holes of an IC socket...and see hwhat the meter says about these Q's in 14 pin package...
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Jason Stout on February 17, 2004, 09:19:42 AM
I wish matched jfet arrays were made.....  :(
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Jay Doyle on February 17, 2004, 09:27:44 AM
I've used the CA3086 in discrete op amp designs. It's great to use when making a discrete OTA.
Title: Low-noise Quad tranny - but forget the DIP business!
Post by: MR COFFEE on February 17, 2004, 09:44:21 AM
MAT-04 from Analog Devices is a low noise, but pricey, Quad NPN Array in a 14-pin DIP. They are more expensive because they are large geometry transistors fabricated in a low noise process and they are all matched closely for use in circuits where matching is critical - log converters, multiple matched current mirrors, differential amps, VCAs made of discrete transistors, etc.

BUT, the advantage to a DIYer of using the DIP-packaged transistors in a BMP is nil compared to discrete trannys.

The only advantage conveyed by the DIP array to Way Huge was to save time/cost in assembly, or possibly to discourage less-persistent and savvy reverse engineers than the crew here 8) , as RG suggested). Or perhaps some anxiety that Mike Matthews might have a beef with him for cloning :?: Who knows, Jeorge isn't saying. :cry:  :wink:

People who seek status or to increase the draw of their studio "arsenal" blow lots of money on expensive and aging FX with "legendary reputations" they've probably never had a chance to hear before they plunk down the big bucks - all the money and secretiveness gives them a bigger draw than if the truth be known that some "legendary" boutique pedal is simply a (hopefully well-made) clone of an old standard.

I would rather collaborate with all the cool people that hang out here and listen and tweak away until I hear something really good, that still trips my trigger when I listen and A-B compare it with the "original" circuit 4 days later.

And I thank the dear Lord for the genius who invented that white plug-in breadboard stuff!
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Jay Doyle on February 17, 2004, 09:58:44 AM
Here is the datasheet for the 3086 (http://www.intersil.com/data/fn/fn483.pdf)
Title: Hint Hint
Post by: Skreddy on February 17, 2004, 02:54:36 PM
Re: datasheet for the 3086...
"The CA3086 consists of five general-purpose silicon NPN
transistors on a common monolithic substrate. Two of the
transistors are internally connected to form a differentially
connected pair."

Perfect for making an octave-up pedal!

One gain stage -> differential pair driving ge diodes in series -> clipping stage -> tonestack / recovery / output stage.  

I'm off to schematic/layout land...
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Jay Doyle on February 17, 2004, 02:57:28 PM
Skreddy,

I don't know how many he has left, but Steve at Small Bear carries the 3086.

Jay
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Mark Hammer on February 17, 2004, 03:04:05 PM
Five thousand hits on ONE THREAD!!!

Holy Toledo!!

It's a fuzzbox lads.  Get over it.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: puretube on February 17, 2004, 03:06:55 PM
I bet, Sir Jeorge W. Huge is watching this thread, and l.h.a.o.....
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Peter Snowberg on February 17, 2004, 03:08:34 PM
Quote from: Mark Hammer
Five thousand hits on ONE THREAD!!!

Holy Toledo!!

Now that's a Way Huge number. ;) It's been a very interesting thread.

-Peter
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: erix on February 17, 2004, 03:26:47 PM
Quote from: Jason Stout
I wish matched jfet arrays were made.....  :(


Ask and you shall recieve!

http://www.linearsystems.com

ok,
erix
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: RDV on February 17, 2004, 04:12:59 PM
Quote from: Mark Hammer
Five thousand hits on ONE THREAD!!!
Holy Toledo!!
It's a fuzzbox lads.  Get over it.
We're all watching for the parts list.

It is a fuzzbox..... that sells for $500.00+ on eBay.

Regards

One of the Vultures on the fence(A/K/A RDV).
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Mr.Huge on February 18, 2004, 12:18:31 AM
It was fun!
-Mr. Huge
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: bobbletrox on February 18, 2004, 12:29:33 AM
Quote from: erix
Ask and you shall recieve!

http://www.linearsystems.com

ok,
erix


I just sent for samples  :cry:
Title: In the interest of sanity, I repeat...
Post by: MR COFFEE on February 18, 2004, 01:27:18 AM
Chillen,

People who seek status or to increase the draw of their studio "arsenal" blow lots of money on expensive and aging FX with "legendary reputations" they've probably never had a chance to hear and  don't really know what they are buying before they have plunked down the really big bucks  to buy them...

All the money and secretiveness gives boutique FX a bigger draw than, say, if the truth be known,  that some "legendary" boutique pedal is simply a clone of an old standard...  :shock:

Anyone besides me notice Jeorge ain't talkin' no more, and got funny about his no-longer-made "intellectual property" (the PCB anyway)...HEY, you don't think that like maybe HE is the dude selling his unsold stock of 'Pickles to suckers for $500 a pop?  :lol: And wants to keep the "legendary" BS going to build up his 401K? :shock:  

Hey, I thought he HAD a day job now with Digitech... :lol:

BTW - those monolythic caps in the tone control network come in even smaller values than .01 uf - like down to .001 uf (1000 pf to those of you in more progressive countries than the USA).

Plug those values into Dave Cigna's tone stack calc, and you'll see what LITTLE bit is different about Jeorge's clone of the BMP...

Not necessarily better sounding, mind you... but what little IS different. Worth $500 ? Oh, yeah, SURE... :lol:

Build a triangle BMP and name it after something shaped like a prick - or "Mr. Huge"... you'll be better off. Tweak the tone network, maybe piggy it, it may be WAY better still - or maybe EH has already done a really good job of tayloring the frequency response of the BMP...

Hey, use YOUR ears to tweak it. Isn't that what this site is all about :?:

Anyone ELSE notice Jeorge couldn't even keep straight who posted the pics... anyone ELSE notice he got RG and Jack mixed up? ... I guess he was too caught up in his I'm-the-Jedi-Master ego trip...

I concur with Mark Hammer...
Quote
"It's a fuzz box, lads"
, ......
 :P
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: aron on February 18, 2004, 01:51:05 AM
MR Coffee,

Despite whatever changes there are in relation to the Big Muff, people will pay more for a given pedal for various reasons.

I think that Jeorge has been very clear about where he stands and in fact, I think he has been very cool about this whole situation. He didn't say you can't post your own drawing of a PCB layout, just not his.

There are several inaccuracies in your message regarding him. He doesn't work for Digitech (at least AFAIK).
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Peter Snowberg on February 18, 2004, 02:12:45 AM
Mr Coffee,

I think Mr. Huge has been more that cool about his hard work showing up of the net and then extremely gracious about helping out when the questions arose. He could have asked that it all disappear right away, but he didn't. Instead he helped out and provided a few laughs along the way for many of us and now a whole bunch of people are aware of parts they didn't even know existed.

If you don't want to pay that price then don't, but bashing him for something that he may or may not be doing is childish.

....and he doesn't work at DigiTech.

-Peter
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Alex C on February 18, 2004, 02:25:39 AM
Based only on his comments in this thread, I like Mr. Huge.  He seems to have a good sense of humor, and always encouraged us to discover ideas on our own.  I feel that he was very generous with how much of his COPYRIGHTED material he allowed us to post and distribute.  He seems to value greatly the ideals of the DIY community.  

Señor Huge, I stand with you.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: bobbletrox on February 18, 2004, 03:08:59 AM
Crud, there don't seem to be any distos in Australia with LM394s or NTE2321s.   :?
Title: Purple piquer
Post by: ErikMiller on February 18, 2004, 04:43:59 AM
Maybe the Way Huge haters can get together and come up with their own BMP variant called The Sour Grape.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Bassybert on February 18, 2004, 08:15:59 AM
Quote
Maybe the Way Huge haters can get together and come up with their own BMP variant called The Sour Grape.


Ha Ha. Very clever Erik

Don't want to seem like a hippy or anything but why is there so much dislike from some people on this forum to others. It's simple - if you don't like Mr Huge not wanting his boards posted then that's up to you. Why not spend time and energy into LEARNING rather than moaning that this company is ripping people by selling a BMP 'clone' for $loads or that company is selling fuzz face copies for 3 time more than they should. It's up to them and if people want to buy them, they pays their money and takes their choice!!

Personally, I think Mr Huge's pedals sound great, and he's helped people work things out on this forum that would normally have taken them a lot longer. It's funny how the ones who moan and complain are usually the ones who are too selfish to help others

Jim
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: afranks on February 18, 2004, 09:02:03 AM
Wait a second...

All this BS about the Swollen Pickle being a $500 BMP clone is crap.

Those who weren't on a meth bender in the 90's would remember:

- The SP *never* cost $500 when new... it was around $200, from what
I recall.  It's the easily aroused collectors that have upped the going
price to $500.
- At the time, the only *real* manufactured BMP was the Sovtek Russian
POS.

So, the SP was one of the few, if not the only one, American made BMP
at the time.  And you could buy it for $200 or so.  Sounds good to me...

Personally, I think Jeorge has been cool about this thread.  He even
helped a little bit.  The only vague element on that pedal was the IC.
Now that the mystery is solved, the rest is an exercise left to the reader.
Why should he stick around to help you draw the PCB layout?
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: BillyJ on February 18, 2004, 11:40:57 AM
Ben-"This is a dangerous time for you... and you will be tempted by the Dark Side of the Force"

Ben-"Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view."

Yoda-"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

Yoda-"Beware of the dark side. Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight."


Huge rocks!!!
Title: way huge pcb
Post by: rhinson on February 18, 2004, 11:50:14 AM
hello there,  since the bmp is already out there in board layout form for diy consumption,  i'd like to see someone use this transistor array idea on something that i don't think is out there yet on anyone's free site--the univox superfuzz.   it's got 6 transistors so you could use a 2n5088 for the input and output and use the array for the middle 4 transistors.  i know this effect is way more over the top than the bmp and is therefore not as useful for most folks, but it is something that hasn't been done yet and posted for download.  i used to have an original gray box model and one small mod i made to it was to replace the dpdt (on/on) with a dpdt (on/on/on) so that the middle pos. blended the 2 extreme tones together to get sort of a more"normal" fuzz type sound.  anyway,  just a slightly offtopic response to the bmp/transistor array discussion.        thanks          rh
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Fret Wire on February 18, 2004, 11:56:03 AM
an internally matched jfet array for the phase 90?
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Mark Hammer on February 18, 2004, 12:06:50 PM
Matched JFET arrays such as the AM9711 (I think that's the number) were used for several phasers long ago, such as the first Ross phasers.  We'd still be using them or their equivalents....IF they were available.  Sadly, they aren't.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: smoguzbenjamin on February 18, 2004, 12:08:50 PM
Why aren't they available anymore? Honestly if there is enough demand for a matched FET array wouldn't someone out there wanna produce one? :?
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Fret Wire on February 18, 2004, 12:16:11 PM
Quote from: Mark Hammer
Matched JFET arrays such as the AM9711 (I think that's the number) were used for several phasers long ago, such as the first Ross phasers.  We'd still be using them or their equivalents....IF they were available.  Sadly, they aren't.


Thanks for the info Mark. What a shame, that would have been nice.  :cry:
Title: Re: way huge pcb
Post by: moosapotamus on February 18, 2004, 01:04:55 PM
Quote from: rhinson
...i'd like to see someone use this transistor array idea on something that i don't think is out there yet on anyone's free site--the univox superfuzz...

 8)  8)  8)

~ Charlie
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Mr.Huge on February 18, 2004, 01:21:56 PM
Thanks to everyone for they’re support. I really like the community here. I wish something like this were around when I started building. You cats rule.

However, I really get tired of the people who whine about vintage pedal prices and then say the pedal sucks. I don’t get that. If you don’t like Way Huge (or any other brand) pedals and think they’re just stupid clones don’t buy one. What the @#$% do I care, I don’t get the money.
I thought this forum was to help people build pedals… Not throw down insults and talk shit about pedals you can’t afford. That’s just a waist of everyone’s time. I don’t write posts to slag other people or pedals. That doesn’t further the knowledge pool or help anyone.

Here’s a little scenario:
I’d like to buy an original Tycobrahe Octavia, but I’m not willing to pay $800.00 for one.
I think they kick ass…
Could I build a clone?
Of course.
Will I?
Probably.
Will mine sound as good?
Yes, probably better.
Will I still want an original?
YES!
Why?
Because, Jeff Beck and Mike Landau used them.
So when I look at my pedal board I’d rather see an original just because of the connection with the players I admire. My Octavia will sound great and I will be totally happy with the tone.

Any way…

If my memory serves me, I think there are only a total of around 4000 Way Huge pedals (for the whole line). That’s nothing in the grand scheme of pedals.

I used the quad array because:
1)   It has 4 perfectly matched transistors
2)   I would have consistency from one pedal to another
3)   It tends to be quieter than 4 discrete transistors
4)   It was only one part to stuff

One of my main design objectives was to have consistency in the pedals. So, all Pickles or Llamas would sound the same.
I used the quad array on the first Aqua-Puss, but found that all the traces going to and from the array created cross talk and made the early AP-1’s a bit darker and nosier.

The original Retail price of a Swollen Pickle (from 1995-1999) was $180.00. It would sell for about $120 - $180.

Cheers,
-Mr. Huge

PS: My apologies to Jack and RG for mixing them up.

Give me a break; I’m a @#$%ing guitar player!
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: AL on February 18, 2004, 01:57:03 PM
I'd just like to put in my 2 cents and say thanks to Mr. Huge for his generous attitude and information.  This is one of the most informative and fun threads I've ever read.  And while it may be easy to clone a BMP in 2004, the information that is now taken for granted wasn't readily available (to my knowlege) in 1995.  So thanks again and please stick around.

AL
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: aron on February 18, 2004, 02:27:56 PM
There are several VERY GOOD points in here:


Quote
Will I still want an original?
YES!


So true. For most of us, if someone were to give us an original or offer it to us at an affordable price, most of us would go for it. Having the original is fun.

Quote
1) It has 4 perfectly matched transistors
2) I would have consistency from one pedal to another
3) It tends to be quieter than 4 discrete transistors
4) It was only one part to stuff


These points are so important. I know most of you that have built more than one copy of a pedal know that there are variations. Sometimes more than we care to admit. Having consistency when selling a commercial product is pretty important. Even for giving/making pedals for friends.


Quote
Thanks to everyone for they’re support. I really like the community here.


We hope it stays this way.

Thanks,

Aron
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: R.G. on February 18, 2004, 02:30:32 PM
Quote
i'd like to see someone use this transistor array idea on something that i don't think is out there yet on anyone's free site--the univox superfuzz.

The univox superfuzz does fit with an array solution better than the BMP. The two octave generator transistors could actually benefit from being matched. The CA30xx arrays are better for this than the MPQ arrays because there is one more transistor and two of them are internally connected for a differential pair.

The GEO layout for the Superfuzz is or will soon be on General Guitar Gadgets, I believe.

Quote
Honestly if there is enough demand for a matched FET array wouldn't someone out there wanna produce one?

The problem there is the definition of "enough". A semiconductor house won't even talk to you about making a run of IC's unless you can show them enough volumes to justify the time and money. That typically means a substantial fraction of a million dollars to produce the first wafer with working parts on it. After the first wafer, each additional part is cheap, but you have to sell enough for the sales to more than cover that up-front investment.

The low return on "jellybean ICs" like opamps is one reason that many semiconductor makers have backed out of that part of the market, preferring to focus their $10B fab lines on ICs worth 10's or 100's of $.

If every person who reads this forum bought 100 jfet arrays, that still might not constitute enough volume to put a part into production.

The watchword in designing effects is to use parts intended for something else (and that some other niche has paid the freight to get and keep in the market) and then to cleverly abuse them in ways that please us. There are simply not enough of us, and MBA disease is too rampant.

The matched JFET arrays Mark referrs to were originally intended for use as analog switch arrays before CMOS did a better job. So we no longer have them to (ab) use as matched linear variable resistors.

Quote
And while it may be easy to clone a BMP in 2004, the information that is now taken for granted wasn't readily available (to my knowlege) in 1995.

I believe that my schemo for the BMP was up on Leper's Schematics archive, the first effects schematics site, in '95. But your point is correct. There are a whole generation of effects builders who have grown up with easily available cloning information. We as humans tend to think that whatever we find in a new situation is what has always existed, and that's not always - or even often - true.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: D Wagner on February 18, 2004, 02:51:04 PM
I just gotta chime in here....

First, thanks Mr. Huge for contributing to such a cool thread, and being so gracious to allow the fruits of your hard labor to be put on public display and dissected.

I know it must have been a hard road to get all of your pedals from concept to (breadboard, to testing, to prototype, to) the final result.  I was working on exactly the same thing as the WH Swollen Pickle, but apparently using the wrong transistor array.  I thought I was being innovative and breaking new ground...... A day late, and a dollar short. :(

To all of the WH nay sayers and detractors: back off!  Who can argue with a well constructed, great sounding pedal that people still covet for one reason or another?  

$500 for a WH pedal on E-Bay?  So what?  Some people have more $$ than common sense.  It may be a good value to them.  I wouldn't spend the money for a classic Strat, because I think that the prices are inflated.   It is all about supply and demand.

Thanks to everyone for such an entertaining and educational thread.  That's what this DIY stuff is about!

Derek
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: aron on February 18, 2004, 03:09:22 PM
Quote
There are a whole generation of effects builders who have grown up with easily available cloning information. We as humans tend to think that whatever we find in a new situation is what has always existed, and that's not always - or even often - true.


Yes. Thanks to you, Jack,Justin,Jamie, Mark,tboy and many others that I have not mentioned that really helped me out in the beginning. It wasn't that long ago I tell you.

Discovering the information people freely gave was incredible.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Somicide on February 18, 2004, 03:17:55 PM
I haven't put a word into this thread, mainly because I still have trouble with components (just ask downweverything about my onslaught of cap questions), but I'd like to say that I am eternally grateful for this community, and the readily available knowledge.  It lets the slow and uneducated such as myself catch up a lot quicker than trial and error would allow.  I've thoroughly enjoyed this discussion, despite a lack of understanding at points.  Thanks Mr. Huge for keeping it lively!
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: MR COFFEE on February 18, 2004, 03:40:15 PM
Jeorge and All,

Lighten up, people! I guess we need some more Emoticons. Anyone hear of tongue 'n cheek :?:  

 :o :oops: I didn't mean to sound sharp or trash Jeorge or Way Huge FX.  

I'm not saying Jeorge is a bad guy or putting him down. He seems like a quite decent human being to me AFAIK, and I really respect the fact he was able to start and run a small company and make a living selling FX boxes. That is no small accomplishment. And I agree Jeorge has helped people here in the past and contributed to the DIY community. I think it's cool he shared his reasons for using the quad array in his last post rather than leave newbies wondering. OK? Hear the respect, guys?

I'm just a tad frustrated and ribbing him about all the secretiveness and territoriality about posting the values of his tone control tweak and bobbletrox posting a reverse-engineered PCB layout. Sure it's your copyright, Jeorge, but what friggin' difference does it make? It's a pcb layout, not a Picasso! It's 3-5 hours work for a DIY'er. I'm not trying to take anyone's rights away, I'm just ribbing Jeorge for making an issue of his "rights" when I can't see how it makes the slightest bit of a difference to him at this point in time. I'm not flaming him for it.

I was attempting to rib Jeorge a bit about selling off some old stock of 'pickles at astronomical prices as a way of saying, "What's the big deal, Jeorge? Why the protectiveness? It's not like you're ZVEX who is still making a living by selling 'em. Do you imagine it helps you some way to keep the 'Pickle surrounded in murky unobtanium? What's the investment? I thought you were into sharing and contributing to the info base around here?"

Thanks to Jack and the other folks around here who helped reverse-engineer the 'Pickle, the "trade secret" is out that Jeorge copied Mike Matthews' (then defunct - it's 80's, not 90's) BigMuffPi circuit to start with, tweaked it and called it a really clever phallic name (I'd say even better than the Zvex Super Hard On), did the manufacturing and marketing thing, and made a go of it. Good for Jeorge. I'm happy for him. I'm sure a lot of other folks around here have dreams of doing something similar with their hobby. No sour grapes here :)  I had heard the name and always wondered what it was, probably like the 500 other people following this thread.

But now that the secret is out, I just don't get why Jeorge is so reluctant to claim credit and share what creative tweaking he did to the tone circuit like other folks do day-in-and-day-out around here? If it ain't ego getting in the way, I'm stumped. Or maybe he is selling that pickle over on ebay... (I'm just kidding, Jeorge, OK? I'm picking. I believe you when you say it's not money in your pocket anymore).

And if that sounds like "attacking" Jeorge to folks around here, well, sorry folks. I'm not feeling hostile toward anyone, trying to put Jeorge down, or laughing at him.  I don't mean it or see it that way. I'm just prodding him to think it through and get over it. <Eagles reference> Chiding, perhaps. Of course, I've never had any twinge of ego , myself :lol:  (I'm kidding people, get it?) Anyone else around here able to laugh at our humanity and think it's kosher to nudge each other when "the Dark side" <enter scary music> leads us to be overly possessive and witholding? Of course, I've never had any struggles with that in myself :lol:  

Personally, I think it would be much cooler and a lot more interesting if Jeorge would simple share the tone control values he used so we ALL could breadboard it and listen, maybe A-B it with the EH design - and it might spark some cool NEW tweaks/variations of tone controls. Build the craft, boys.

Jeorge, I wasn't slagging, I'm not slagging and I can't slag your 'Pickle because I've never heard it. I've never seen or played through one, and I for one sure don't plan to plunk down the $600 vintage price to see what I think of one. And yes, I don't think any fuzz box is worth $600 or any guitar is worth $20,000, but I'm not whining that what you charged was too high when you were in business or that vintage prices should be different. I really don't care. It's amazing what people can read into written text.

I've heard opinions that the 'Pickle is "great" and "has the best tone control they've ever heard", and I've heard people say it is "the worst BMP clone they've ever heard, go buy a Creamy-you-know-what." I don't have an opinion.

I value the opinions of people around here whose perceptions are less heavily influenced by marketing hype, high-priced "musical legends", interpersonal BS, and I'd really like to have a chance to hear their take on your mod. And I'd like to play with it on my breadboard so I could form my own opinion about it. If it don't happen, I think we'll all live.

Jeorge, it's entirely up to you..., well, unless, I suppose, Jack or someone decides to post a parts list without your blessings.

On the "rights" business:
I've sold some lucrative and pricey clones and custom tweaks over the years, and it puts money in my pocket. I support the "rights" of people who are willing to pay big bucks for music FX to impress clients that they should patronize their studio because they have such-and-such "vintage" or "custom-built/tweaked clone" piece of equipment in their "arsenal". (That metaphor cracks me up, too. Let's hear it for testosterone and pseudo-military bragging :lol:) It sorta makes business sense for them. I support people right to buy them for whatever purely emotional reasons they buy them (like Jeorge suggests, because some guitar hero had one).

I also think people have a "right" to feel ripped off when they buy something they have never heard, like say, ... a VOX Valvetone, based on advertising, hype, artist endorsements, etc., only to find out it is virtually identical in sound and circuitry to the Tube Screamer they've already got. Especially if they paid "vintage prices" for it. (Now people are going to think that's sour grapes about VOX, too, right? I can't win :cry:  ) (I'm kidding people. OK?)

Rights are a balance IMHO, and I'm in favor of candor and openness. The law doesn't require it, and people "have their rights". Just expressing my opinion.

And I like Jeorge's (and other's) sharing spirit around here a lot better than t'other.

BTW, I thought I heard he was working at Digitech. Sorry if that's in error and offends someone somehow...

To quote Jeorge, "Give me a break, I'm a guitar player!"
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: aron on February 18, 2004, 04:10:25 PM
Quote
about posting the values of his tone control tweak and bobbletrox posting a reverse-engineered PCB layout.


Bart,

I can't speak for Jeorge, but from what I gather is that he doesn't mind if WE reverse his circuit and create our own PCB layout and schematic and post it here. Just don't use his.

It's as simple as that.

Quote
It's 3-5 hours work for a DIY'er.


OK, then anyone of us is free to devote this time to creating one.

Quote
I suppose, Jack or someone decides to post a parts list without your blessings.


As far as I know, it has been OK for Jack to post a reversed originally drawn schematic for this pedal for a long time.

You can PM Jeorge and Jack to ask them directly.

Quote
only to find out it is virtually identical in sound and circuitry to the Tube Screamer they've already got.


Does it sound identical? I know it's close circuitry-wise for sure.

Quote
I thought I heard he was working at Digitech. Sorry if that's in error and offends someone somehow...


It's an error, but doesn't offend me. I've worked with both companies before.

In the end, I think it's more than fair that Jeorge said that we can post a schematic of his pedal(s) as long as we reverse it oursleves and draw the schematics and layout ourselves.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Peter Snowberg on February 18, 2004, 05:06:55 PM
Quote from: MR COFFEE
Jeorge and All,

Lighten up, people! I guess we need some more Emoticons. Anyone hear of tongue 'n cheek :?:  

 :o :oops: I didn't mean to sound sharp or trash Jeorge or Way Huge FX.  

If you go back and read your post, I for one don't see any tongue-in-cheek in there. Just a lot of accusations and misconceptions.  :roll:

-Peter
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: troubledtom on February 18, 2004, 05:24:20 PM
i've talked to Jeorge 2 times on the phone and he was nothing short of being a helpful and cool gent.
             - tom
Title: Alright all ready!
Post by: Mr.Huge on February 18, 2004, 05:49:13 PM
Don’t ever say I’m not charitable!
I prefer that people do the research them selves.
Here ya go Mr. Coffee, now go get a doughnut and relax.
-Mr. Huge

http://www.wayhuge.com/tonecontrol.pdf
(http://www.wayhuge.com/pic_chop.jpg)
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Hal on February 18, 2004, 06:06:17 PM
ok, back on topic (kinda), what about the transistor array makes the SP sound better than any BMP?  Is it just that the hFE's are matched, or what?
Title: Thanks for sharing
Post by: MR COFFEE on February 18, 2004, 06:49:14 PM
Jeorge,

Thanks for sharing. And you are truly a charitable person.  :D
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: mnats on February 18, 2004, 07:08:22 PM
Quote from: bobbletrox
Crud, there don't seem to be any distos in Australia with LM394s or NTE2321s.   :?


LM394CH: Woolworths...uh, Dick Smith stock number Z 6083

There were a bunch of them at my local store the last time I looked though that was a few months ago. If you can't get them I'll check again locally for you...
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: bobbletrox on February 18, 2004, 07:20:57 PM
Whoa...Dick Smith have them?  They don't show up on their website  :?

I'll have to check out my local store...which location did you see them in?  I might be able to get them ordered in or something.

Thanks for the heads-up!
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: idlefaction on February 18, 2004, 08:21:59 PM
thanks jeorge  :)

what kind of research did you do to end up with those values, out of interest?  it's been years since i played a SP, but i remember turning that tone knob and liking every single sound the whole way round.  at the time i remember thinking, 'man, whoever designed this must have done a lot of work getting it to sound this good the whole way round!'

or maybe you just threw some stuff in you liked, and it happened to nail all the sounds i like...   :P
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: aron on February 19, 2004, 02:06:43 AM
Try Duncan's tone stack simulator and your ears  :)
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: RDV on February 19, 2004, 11:46:42 AM
Hey, I never saw no 'tone switch' on the Swole Pickle!

Regards

RDV
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: WGTP on February 19, 2004, 11:55:35 AM
If I did the tone stack right, there is a big ass notch around 800Hz?
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: bwanasonic on February 19, 2004, 01:07:59 PM
Quote from: RDV
Hey, I never saw no 'tone switch' on the Swole Pickle!


I was wondering about that. Just in fooling with values in the Duncan Tone Stack, it seemed like some sort of switch/ push-pull pot deal would be a good idea to switch the mid-notch in/out. Never saw any reference to the SP having a push-pull tone control.

Kerry M
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Mark Hammer on February 19, 2004, 01:23:35 PM
One of the things about this forum is that it invites an extremely broad range of expertise and perspectives.  At one end we have actual cutting-edge designers, whose products we see in glossy full-page (sometimes two-page) full-colour ads.  At the other end we have kids who simply want a fuzz box for the fewest bucks so they can sound more like somebody they admire.  In between, of course, is a universe of levels of expertise and motives.

In some respects, one of the things that makes this forum different from something like, say, the amp forum at Ampage, is that the financial outlay for getting into building tube amps is pretty substantial, and the safety-related knowledge and theory necessarily high.  As a consequence the range of expertise there strikes me as being narrower, with more folks often having insight into the business and design aspects than they might here.  If I was 17, I could probably get into building myself pedals for the price of a couple of evening shifts at my crappy job.  I could probably not do that for tube amps.  This cost differential creates a kind of selective filter for the amp forums but no filter whatsoever for stompboxes.

That creates more noise than signal here sometimes (and a whole lot of repeating oneself), but at the same time the opportunity to bring light to those who are normally so far away from its source as to not know much about it is a truly delightful thing.

One of the value-added things about visits from folks like Ton, Jeorge, Zach, TomP and Howard Davis (come back, Howie! we miss ya) is a sense of how business and design and component manufacturers and consumer relations/feedback interact.  Much like a visit to your political representative's office and a day spent following them around can stop you from slipping into an X-Files mentality about how government works, speaking to people who depend on pedal design for their livelihood (as opposed to wanting their amp/guitar to sound like one they can't afford) does much to eradicate (or at least hold at bay) the kinds of naive beliefs many hold about the world of FX.

As I am fond of saying, wherever transparency does not go, fear, loathing, and paranoid conspiracy theories are more than happy to fill the void.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: puretube on February 19, 2004, 01:35:03 PM
...Howie does visit HC`s FX-forum frequently these days...
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: SoundTech on February 19, 2004, 03:22:11 PM
Well, I don't get around here much, as other things in life have cut into my DIY time (all my projects are on the back burner, and the burner is set to "Barely any heat"), so I guess I get to chime in late.

*Mr. Huge: Thank you for this learning opportunity.  It was, well, very HUGE of you.


Quote from: Mark Hammer

It's a fuzzbox lads.  Get over it.

*Yeah, Mark, but as we all know, sometimes the journey is worth more than the destination.

*Mr. Coffee: Switch to decaf, man.  There's no need to start slamming someone who's trying to help people learn.

There's been a lot going on in my absence, and I gotta try to get back here more.  Thank you all for your wonderful contributions.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Joep on February 19, 2004, 06:28:20 PM
after 160+ replies still no partlist.....looks like I've drawn up the schem for nothing.... :(
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Mr.Huge on February 19, 2004, 07:07:43 PM
"what kind of research did you do to end up with those values"
Honestly, I don’t remember. I’m sure I did a bunch of tweaking and listening, as well as trying to develop it with standard values.

"Hey, I never saw no 'tone switch' on the Swole Pickle!"
I added the switch because it sounds cool. I’ve done that mode on some custom pedals.

"after 160+ replies still no partlist.....looks like I've drawn up the schem for nothing.... "
Ask Jack.

"It's a fuzzbox lads. Get over it."
I agree!

-Mr. Huge[/quote]
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: RDV on February 20, 2004, 08:55:37 AM
Quote from: Mr.Huge
"Hey, I never saw no 'tone switch' on the Swole Pickle!"
I added the switch because it sounds cool. I’ve done that mode on some custom pedals.
Hey, what about instead of a switch, put a 100k pot wired as a variable resistor? Instant mid contour control! That is a very cool BMP tone control variation and I for one am thankful for the posting of it!

Thanks

RDV
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Doug H on February 20, 2004, 10:28:54 AM
Quote from: Jason Stout
I wish matched jfet arrays were made.....  :(


I hear ya! Especially if you could get them matched. I would have a lot of uses for that...

Doug
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Doug H on February 20, 2004, 10:31:11 AM
Quote from: erix
Quote from: Jason Stout
I wish matched jfet arrays were made.....  :(


Ask and you shall recieve!

http://www.linearsystems.com

ok,
erix


Oops! I should have kept reading! :D

Doug
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Doug H on February 20, 2004, 11:14:56 AM
Quote from: aron
Try Duncan's tone stack simulator and your ears  :)


Okay, I plugged in the original BMP values along with Jeorge's into TSC and came up with this:

(http://home.cfl.rr.com/dbhammond/pickletone.gif)

The original BMP has a center freq around 1khz. The Pickle with .0033u has a center freq around 500-600hz with a much deeper scoop. I suspect this gives it a more "modern" sound with the deep scoop and (IMO) much more reasonable center freq. With the .01u switched in it has a shallower scoop, like the original BMP, but the center freq is down around 300hz. I suspect this gives it more of a "vintage" sound. My opinions come from looking at amp tone stacks and plugging them into TSC as well as my experience and ears.

I have found the stock BMP tone control to be fairly useless- too woofy on one extreme and too screechy on the other- just my opinion. It appears Jeorge did some nice tweaks to it to make it more useful and flexible.

I think the bottom line here is, if you are building a BMP circuit, tweak this tone control a -lot- until you are satisfied with it. Make sure it sounds good to you.

Jeorge has graciously provided his tweaks to this circuit, and I appreciate his contributions to this forum. Jack has already written about different ways to get different things out of this control too. Now it's up to you to take this info and tweak your gear for your own personal sound.

As a side note: I know I'm late to the party here, but just had to comment- Ebay prices are absolutely meaningless, aside from the collectors market.

Doug
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: rockstrongo on November 10, 2004, 03:52:11 PM
Hey, sorry to resurrect an old thread.....


I just had one quick question. I've plugged in all of my favorite Big Muff component values into this schematic, and I'm going to start working on it. The only question that I had was for a value that I could use for R2, the first component that the input hits, a resistor that goes to ground. I haven't seen this extra resistor on any other Big Muff schematics, so I'm not sure what I should try here.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Skreddy on November 10, 2004, 04:07:59 PM
That's what's called a "pulldown resistor."  It simply bleeds off any residual charge on the input cap so that when the effect is switched "on," it doesn't pop.  I generally see 1 Meg used here, but you could certainly go higher than that too.  Actually, if you just wire the bypass switch to short out the input going to the circuit when in bypass mode (I always wire my effects this way), you won't need a pulldown resistor.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: puretube on November 10, 2004, 04:28:24 PM
I disagree: I do short the input @ bypass, but nevertheless discharge any given cap with a pulldown-R...
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Skreddy on November 10, 2004, 04:37:47 PM
Out of habit?   :wink:

When off, wouldn't shorting it directly to ground discharge it plenty good?  When it's in use, it doesn't really need to be discharged, does it?
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: puretube on November 10, 2004, 04:59:20 PM
at the moment I break the contact to the input-jack, the outer "plate" of the cap is at a certain voltage (Vsignal in) - when I disrupt this, and discharge the cap to zero, there`ll happen a "voltage jump"...
if the output half of the footswitch isn`t faster than the input half,
that spike can appear at the output, in many cases amplified...

and, err, yes, ehh, out of habit... :?
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: cd on November 10, 2004, 05:02:05 PM
Quote from: Skreddy
When off, wouldn't shorting it directly to ground discharge it plenty good?  When it's in use, it doesn't really need to be discharged, does it?


Yes, but the POP occurs when you turn the effect ON.  The input/output caps leak a bit of DC - when the effect is switched on, the voltage difference from the leakage and the caps charging up result in a pop.  The pulldown resistors send the leakage to ground so when you switch the effect on, there's no pop.
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Skreddy on November 10, 2004, 05:25:14 PM
At the risk of sounding either stupid or like I'm trying to accuse you of being so, I must admit that didn't make any sense to me.  

If the cap's shorted to ground on one side (by the bypass switch) when it's off, and the input bias resistor (100k to ground in the case of the BMP) keeps the other side of the cap discharged... what DC leakage?  Sure; the cap charges up with the first input signal that's applied to it, but that's just the input signal; there's no residual charge hanging around anywhere.  And even if there was, how would a 1M to ground send that to ground instead of the input of the circuit?

And, Puretube, far be it from me to challenge your work habits.  Keep on doing what works for you.  And thanks for your cool freaking tube circuits.  What the hell are you working on right now?  You're getting ready to unleash something new on the world, aren't you?  I knew what it was a few months ago from your clues, but I forgot; sorry.  Another clue please?

Oh; and sorry about our election.  :oops:
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: The Tone God on November 10, 2004, 06:54:54 PM
You make the assumption that switching is instantanious which is what most people think of when looking at circuits but in reality during switching there is a moment when the input is not connected to anything thereby giving a chance for some charge to leak. The pulldown prevents that leakage even when switching.

Oh and sorry about your election.

Andrew
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Skreddy on November 10, 2004, 09:30:09 PM
(http://skreddypedals.com/circuits/Pulldown-why.gif)

So you're saying that a charge might build up in the cap while it's switching between ground and input? Would the charge be coming from the input stage of the effect?

I still say that pulldown resistor is superflous. :twisted:
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: R.G. on November 10, 2004, 11:26:29 PM
Quote
So you're saying that a charge might build up in the cap while it's switching between ground and input? Would the charge be coming from the input stage of the effect?

Could well be the cap itself. Look up "dielectric absorption" when you get the chance.

Quote
I still say that pulldown resistor is superflous.

A lot of the time it is. I've paid for insurance on my house for about 27 years now. Never had a fire wipe me out yet. Was I wasting my money? More importantly, should I cancel my insurance now and never pay again?
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Tim Escobedo on November 11, 2004, 01:22:00 AM
Quote from: R.G.
Quote
importantly, should I cancel my insurance now and never pay again?


I say yes!

 :twisted:
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Skreddy on November 11, 2004, 01:27:04 AM
:shock:
 :lol:
:x
:?:
:evil:
:P
8)

Damn, R.G.; you tryin to kill me?  Crazy phantom voltages out of nowhere comin to make my bypass pop...


















...still think that resistor don't need to be there...

Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: puretube on November 11, 2004, 02:58:22 AM
too many designs currently to mention at the moment, Skreddy :wink:

oh, btw:
http://diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=26791
http://diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=25039&start=210
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Skreddy on November 11, 2004, 11:30:08 AM
Puretube; you're funny, Man.

Kidding aside, R.G. is the only one who has offered any real reason to use a pulldown resistor, that being the possibility of dielectric absorption building a charge back up in the cap while the switch's throw is traveling between the ground lug and the input lug.

I'm not saying Puretube's reason isn't real; I mean, we can't just amplify the sound of the input cap suddenly going silent while we switch into bypass mode... that could be deafening through a Hiwatt! ;)

But getting back to dielectric absorption... First of all, the standard measurement for d.a. charges a cap with DC for 15 minutes, then discharges the cap for 10 seconds, then tests the cap again for voltage after 15 minutes.  

Compare that to the time it takes a footswitch to break contact and make contact.

Let's assume that was enough time for a charge to build up anyway, arguendo.  Why would this cap have such a propensity to recharge itself?  Because it's been polarized by DC.  So the input has a strong DC offset.  That means that if the cap is totally discharged that it must first get charged with the DC offset before it can start passing the AC signal through.  Which means that a pulldown resistor in this case would actually be a detriment rather than helpful!

:P

(assuming you use the circuit-input-to-ground-during-bypass method of wiring the switch)
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: moogatroid2000 on November 11, 2004, 11:55:01 AM
I am assuming the footswitches we use are _break before make_.
Do they have _make before break_ switches?
If they did would this allow for pop free switching or would it cause other problems?
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: The Tone God on November 11, 2004, 04:28:30 PM
Quote from: moogatroid2000
I am assuming the footswitches we use are _break before make_.
Do they have _make before break_ switches?
If they did would this allow for pop free switching or would it cause other problems?


They do make "make before break" switches but I don't think in footswitch form. Even so I think other problems would occur with connecting the bypass and effect modes at the same time which could be worse.

Beyond that leaky caps are but one of the causes of popping in bypass switching. We get caught up with pulldown resistors and leaky caps around here as if it the answer to pop-less switching when in fact it just reduces one of the symptoms, be it one of the most common and easist to solve, so just having non-leaky caps is not going to guaranty pop-less switching. You need to do alot more before you can get/say that.

I agree that in some cases you may not need the pulldown resistor but it is better to put it in just to be safe. Its just good design habit.

Andrew
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: Skreddy on November 11, 2004, 06:41:33 PM
Yeah; a 100uf capacitor across the power rails to 'buffer' the LED current does the trick for me.  :)
Title: Way Huge pcb...
Post by: puretube on November 14, 2004, 12:38:25 PM
that cap is a must even in non-LED pedals... :)