It had to happen: :twisted:
http://www.rolandus.com/news/pressdetails.asp?PressID=399
I hereby declare the Hammond 1590B with a range of coloured paints and a stompswitch to be my effects pedal "trade dress". You will all be hearing from my lawyers.
A chance to buy cheap, decent pedals - it had to be stopped.
check out paragraph 2:
"BOSS has long been an industry leader in the design and manufacture of guitar effects pedals, recording equipment and other musical instrument accessories. In addition to their unparalleled sound, the BOSS pedals feature a unique combination of aesthetic design elements which have served to establish BOSS as an instantly-recognizable brand and to distinguish BOSS pedals from pedals manufactured by others."
i bet some lazy (?) journalist will just quote this whole press release verabtim - so much for unbiased coverage
Behringer were saying on their website that the anticipated release was 2nd quarter of 2005 - I guess that's been put back a bit.
OF COURSE it was going to happen !!
Behringer ( "rip-off -ringer" ) have overstepped the mark once again and well, they deserve everything they get :roll:
Couldn't "MXR" have done that with the 1590B ??
BTW: Shame though, the idea of three delays ( cheap ) was quite interesting . . . . . :oops:
Marty. 8)
DANG! I need a stompbox sized tuner CHEAP!
:(
Yay for Roland (this time). 8)
Mike
:P
I reckon the best move for Deadringer at this stage would be to withdraw the product line, apologize to Roland, release the effects in a different box and cash in on all the free publicity this will have brought. :D
d`ya think they already have made millions of different boxes in advance,
and just showed their NAMM prototypes in those B*ss & E-H look boxes
to draw attention?
It's paragraph 4 that looks like it's more damaging to Behringer:
"The Complaint alleges that in an effort to gain industry acceptance of the cloned pedals, Behringer falsely assured industry retailers that the Behringer line of pedals was approved and endorsed by Roland."
PJJ
puretube: that would explain why they only showed CG renderings of those pedals on their website :)
"Roland contends that this is no coincidence, and that the overall look and feel of the Behringer pedals is intentionally designed to confuse consumers as to the origin...?"
that part is a little cheesy.... one box will say "behringer, and the other boss......
i was looking forward to seeing how they sounded.....
crp
price will be double (50Euro) when they`re issued:
now they are "the famous little pedals that B*ss was so afraid of"...
Suprizing !!! That B would be so blatant about infringing, Surprizing to the point that I offer:...perhaps there's something we're not aware of going on here...by the way it snowed very heavily here last night.
Whatever the case, here we are typing about Roland and Behringer...freely and publicly.
I don't recall Roland doing much to cause me to lose respect for the company...I know I bought alotta Boss pedals, and never had a problem with any of them [except noise]...even after they all got replaced with DIY units [except the RV3].
I have a Behringer GM108 (copy of Tech21 Trademark10), I got it on ebay for $50! What a great sounding little amp.
I don't blame Boss for wanting to keep their product differentiated and for defending their market. Good for them. I will still buy Behringer products though. Why? I can give you dozens of reasons:
*My son needs a new pair of glasses (do you know how expensive glasses are?)
*My family needs a second car
*The pedals sound really, really good, for a fraction of what they cost from the competitors
*I've got thousands of dollars of medical bills from my daughter being in the hospital
I really look up to the companies like Behringer who find a way to bring me cool sounding stuff on a shoe string budget (Danelectro, too). If you have a family and are living off of only one income, maybe you can understand what I'm talking about. The fact of the matter is, if it weren't for Behringer, I sure wouldn't be buying the other makers stuff, I couldn't afford it, so Behringer isn't really hurting the competition, in my view. Behringers stuff also seems not to be built quite as sturdy as the competition's, so if I were a gigging musician (and had the income to actually support my playing), I would definitely buy the expensive stuff.
Now you guys can go back to ranting about how evil Behringer is. :)
That's more to the point of addressing the elements of the claim (I'll spare you the discussion of the prima facie case...) Consumer confusion is the big issue, so they will say specifically that that confusion is going to happen.
In any event, there are plenty of ways they could make a durable box for their effects, and if they're actually as good, people will gobble them up...mimicing the box is just a way to scrounge some extra sales...
It's possible they knew this was a gambit, and were thinking that they might get lucky and get the case in front of people unfamiliar with the market who might decide the boxes didn't look alike...
Quote from: casey"Roland contends that this is no coincidence, and that the overall look and feel of the Behringer pedals is intentionally designed to confuse consumers as to the origin...?"
that part is a little cheesy.... one box will say "behringer, and the other boss......
i was looking forward to seeing how they sounded.....
It is always interesting to hear people on a clone info exchange website get indignant about some of Behringer’s products. Before you slam Behringer to hard for producing some low cost products that are aimed at being workalikes consider the following:
1) Our competitive system always has needed to strike a balance between return for the originator of an implementation and the need to have "fast followers" emerge to drive prices down and improve quality.
2) Many Behringer products have significant engineering content. Example: DEQ2496. The main contribution there is the DSP software and user interface. What is this a copy of? Nothing I can see. Good breakthrough in price/performance.
3) Keep in mind that engineering "design for low cost manufacture" *is* a significant engineering and company contribution.
4) And lastly to be consistent, if you are a PC user, make sure you buy only IBM PCs. Make sure there are no VIA or AMD chips. Perhaps only Cisco networking. To be extra sure, make sure that supporting electronic components are not made in Taiwan. If you use a mac or iPod make sure you do no use any add on with the same color or has a matching form factor.
I am not trying to say that a company should not abide by the legal rules. I am saying that we have a competitive (to a great extent) economic system that in all product types benefits from fast followers. It is a real nuisance for an innovator if they are slow moving, want to keep things static or want to keep premium prices. And competitive outcomes are often very harsh for companies and individuals. But in aggregate the system has had good benefits and has worked pretty well for at least a century.
now they write this:
QuoteThis BEHRINGER product has been designed to compete head to head with the Electro-Harmonix® Small Stoneâ,,¢*.
but
at NAMM, they wrote that it was
designed or modeled after the SS (or similar - got to find a copy of that press-release...)
so they stepped back already
also the boxes don`t have that B*ss-looking letterings anymore:
http://www.behringer.com/TO100/index.cfm?lang=ENG
Quote from: puretube
also the boxes don`t have that B*ss-looking letterings anymore:
http://www.behringer.com/TO100/index.cfm?lang=ENG
They have also changed the colors, btw.
you know, boss isnt the only manufacturer to have that kind of box...
what about Nobels, or the new digitech pedals ?
http://www.nobels.com/
http://www.musictoyz.com/guitar/pedals/digix.php
Boss isn't making claims that the technology was misappropriated. They are claiming that the aesthetic design was intentionally chosen to capitalize on the good will and consumer value associated with the Boss product. Behringer could come out and say that it is an exact clone of the circuit in the Boss product or the EH product (assuming of course that no patent protection still applies.) Trade dress and unfair competion protection is invoked where there is a considerable likelyhood of consumer confusion as to source. Further, trade dress protection solely covers the asthetic and non-functional elements of the product. Functionality is solely protected by patent law.
CAVEAT- This is only intended to be for discussion purposes and does not constitute legal advice, nor is it intended to be used as legal advice, nor substitue for the advice of an attorney. :D
Quote3) And lastly to be consistent, if you are a PC user, make sure you buy only IBM PCs. Make sure there are no VIA or AMD chips. Perhaps only Cisco networking. To be extra sure, make sure that supporting electronic components are not made in Taiwan. If you use a mac or iPod make sure you do no use any add on with the same color or has a matching form factor.
IBM sold their PC division to Lenovo of China so, in essence, IBM PCs are a clone of sorts now as well.
:wink:
Quote from: Gladmarr
IBM sold their PC division to Lenovo of China so, in essence, IBM PCs are a clone of sorts now as well.
:wink:
Every good business becomes a big crumby business.
crp
Quote from: TorchyQuote from: BlackFlag1313Trade dress and unfair competion protection is invoked where there is a considerable likelyhood of consumer confusion as to source.
So, how the hell could you confuse a £75 cast metal box with "BOSS" in big letters, for a £15 plastic box with BEHRINGER in big letters ???? The only ones who profit are the !&£%"^* lawyers, and we all get treated as retards who cant think for ourselves.
I was only explaining the law. Roland still has to WIN THEIR LAWSUIT. If everything is as black and white as you state it, I assume Behringer will have an easy time of it. P.S. Sorry you don't like lawyers. I won't be able to sleep tonight now.
Ah well, there's always AXL, the biggest guitar manufacturer (in terms of volume output) in the world:
http://www.highlystrung.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_AXL_pedals_19.html
Ooh, look! They've even got one in a bright green case called a 'TOD9 Tube Overdrive'! Gosh, it sounds just like a TS9! Wow, they've been selling it for two years and Roland have never noticed!
Now, that's sarcasm. :wink: :wink: :wink:
Quote from: PeterJ
"The Complaint alleges that in an effort to gain industry acceptance of the cloned pedals, Behringer falsely assured industry retailers that the Behringer line of pedals was approved and endorsed by Roland."
If Behringer actually did this, string them up. If they made (if that's even possible) people think that BOSS had "approved" it, then they should get screwed.
However, I can't see that Behringer actually did this. Unless there is some written proof, it's a bold claim. I'm interested to see how this will go.
At the same time, if Behringer can make similar pedals for cheaper, then good for them. I don't particularly want to spend $200 on a Boss digital Delay, so if I could get one cheaper, then I would.
There are two lessons to be learned here:
1) For Behringer - ripoffs should be a little but more subtle. Blatent ripoffs are offensive and potentially costly in legal fees/damages.
2) The public now knows that Behringer can make them cheaper for us. Lower the prices, or release a cheaper line. If there wasn't a market for Behringer's cheap ripoffs, then Roland would have nothing to worry about.
keep in mind that this is just my *opinion*....
Behringer, in my mind, has a history of infringing on the trademarks of companies that have worked hard to establish themselves in the MI retail market (anyone remember Mackie?)
Behringer, because they ...ummm... borrow...the look, features, and ideas behind these products, has far less $$$ involved in R&D, and therefore can offer similar products at a greatly reduced price, thus causing damage to the companies who actually *developed* the product in the first place.
Behringer, to my knowledge, has yet to develop a product on their own...pretty much everything that they offer in their line is a copy of someone else's product...they are a "parasitic" company offering "parasitic" products.
You would think that because they (Behringer) has less $$ spent in R&D that they'd be able to offer a quality product for a lower price...in my experience, this is not the case...in 10 year of being involved in the music retail business (besides the 2 i spent on the road...), i've seen more Behringer products fail than any other single companies product. For instance, I can count the number of Mackie consoles that needed service (other than routine maintenance) on one hand (and no, I dont like Mackie products...I prefer Allen & Heath mixers, for the $$$)...however, I've seen upwards of 25-30 Behringer mixers fail over the last 5 years (thats just in my store, guys...I guarantee the number is staggeringly higher worldwide). In fact, typically the Behringer mixers have shown problems with the "mute" and "phantom power" functions. Whether they've made efforts to correct these problems, I don't know...but 2-3 weeks ago I had another 24ch Behringer mixer come in for the "mute" problem (it mutes the whole console...)
So to sum up my rant..sure, Behringer offers similar products at a lower price...they do this by blatantly copying the look, features, and functions of companies that have spent years of time and millions of dollars developing their "often groundbreaking" products. But in my opinion, Behringer can not copy the quality that these products offer. ( ...I dont worry about stepping on a Boss pedal, I'm sure its gonna work every time...I would hate to depend on a Behringer pedal though, given the companies history of "less than reliable" products)
So...in the end, you can choose to support the companies that create these products that we love, or you can choose to support a "parasitic" company like Behringer, that exists only because they copy the products that other companies created.
I'll choose to support companies like Boss and Electro-Harmonix.
(once again, this is my opinion, based on my experience....make up your own mind about Behringer and companies like them :) )
This will probably provide Behringer with the best publicity they can get - well worth the legal fees I should think. Good luck to them, it's a hard competitive world out there. Like I said before, those cheap pedals would have provided an opportunity for less well off folks to buy them. It could of course be a joint publicity trick!
Stephen
Quote from: Dragonfly
Behringer, because they ...ummm... borrow...the look, features, and ideas behind these products, has far less $$$ involved in R&D, and therefore can offer similar products at a greatly reduced price, thus causing damage to the companies who actually *developed* the product in the first place.)
Classic fast follower startegy. Example: Dell.
Quote from: DragonflyBehringer, to my knowledge, has yet to develop a product on their own...pretty much everything that they offer in their line is a copy of someone else's product...
DEQ2496 is a counter example.
Quote from: Dragonfly..various comments about Behringer quality ......
Seem to be differing opinions on that for current products. But it is not related to being a fast follower. Perceived reliability is a very valid reason to pay a higher price for an item. Of course price does not linearly relate to quality. Going for a higher volume, lower margin pricing strategy does not by itself mean that the product quality is lower.
Quote from: Dragonfly..So...in the end, you can choose to support the companies that create these products that we love, or you can choose to support a "parasitic" company like Behringer, that exists only because they copy the products that other companies created.
Yes that is certainly a choice we must make. And certainly it is a fine choice to choose Boss or EH. Keep in mind though, all the times you go with the version that is not from the introducer of some functionality in the various products you buy.
Now where can I buy that Western Electric AT&T phone I am looking for....
Quote from: Ge_WhizAh well, there's always AXL, the biggest guitar manufacturer (in terms of volume output) in the world:
http://www.highlystrung.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_AXL_pedals_19.html
Ooh, look! They've even got one in a bright green case called a 'TOD9 Tube Overdrive'! Gosh, it sounds just like a TS9! Wow, they've been selling it for two years and Roland have never noticed!
Now, that's sarcasm. :wink: :wink: :wink:
Nice call-out. that's bull, man. If it's not right for one company, then they need to adress all companies that do this.
Personally, if someone is dense enought to buy a pedal that has borrowed a packaging scheme from another company, and think it's the real thing, then that's their fault.
I've got to go, I'm off to jam on my vintage '54 Phender Telekastor--all original, too; and signed by Leon Phender. It sounds sweet through my Ibenazz Toobe Skreemer (that's all original, too--with JRC4SS8 chip!).
Man, people are idiots :wink:
i mean come on, their pedals had plastic cases....
a person is not gonna get fooled into thinking that the behringer product would be the same quality at a lower price...
All you people who think Behringer are great are probably exactly the same ones who will bitch and moan about a lack of 'new ideas' in a few years time when fewer manufacturers are making original pedals. Who'll bother starting a new pedal biz when pricing expectations of consumers have been warped, and when they might possibly have their product ripped off?
Purchase of Behringer producs is implicit approval of their business practices AND implicit approval of their out-sourcing of labour to third-world countries. How much is your moral position on these things worth? US$50 per stompbox?
Mike
Even though this is very true to you and me IMO Mike...it can easliy mean an entirely different subject to someone asked to specifically respond directly and only to questions raised by such 'theories'.
I'm pretty certain I was happier before I 'knew stuff'...PeteMoore Circa 2000
Interesting...
Stupid ?
TRICK !!!
Plastic shaft knobs that stick wayy out. Good one, I had to be stupid not to be interested enough to see *this before buying a BBoard with that 'planned obscelesence' trick to make plastic *junk look like old style pot/knob at the expense of being called stupid by this engineer.
I have nothing against plastic pot knobs, but tall ones put in the 'guardrail' positions these are, is a recipe for premature failure which could be prevented by consulting me first. Check cashed first. ifOf course..lol...Like they couldn't/didn't figure that one out...same thing with the stupid power supply cord>heavy transformer>shorter section of cord>EZ break plastic jack.
If you know what you're doing. these fragile points can be protected by:
Strapping wood on the sides of the board, detents match protruding screws for alignment.
Mounting that stupid cord...getting rid of the junk jack when it breaks.
If you were putting this into the top of a rack, you probably wouldn't find the weak points as fast, how many 75 buk BBoard Buyers have a rack to fit a petite soundboard in...Doh.
I wonder what little 'design secrets' such as these will be found in future B products...I'm glad that I won't have to be the one finding out.
Might as well call 'm Bichinger...much as some of us like typing about 'em... :twisted:
I'm just having trouble getting used to it.
Quote from: moving_electrons
Quote from: DragonflyBehringer, to my knowledge, has yet to develop a product on their own...pretty much everything that they offer in their line is a copy of someone else's product...
DEQ2496 is a counter example.
Klark Teknik DN9340
Dragonfly,
+1 for everything you said in this topic so far. It's great to see someone who did do his homework.
Quote from: DragonflyQuote from: moving_electrons
Quote from: DragonflyBehringer, to my knowledge, has yet to develop a product on their own...pretty much everything that they offer in their line is a copy of someone else's product...
DEQ2496 is a counter example.
Klark Teknik DN9340
I assume you are not saying they copied the DSP software program or other such technology.
I assume you are pointing out that there was an existing (really expensive but hopefully very nice) product on the market that provided 31 band digital equalization and parametric equalization. So there was a prior proof of concept and a product on the market from which to gauge interest.
The DEQ2496 has added some additional capabilities beyond that and so could be considered as having incremental innovation.
I do see your comparison though.
Is your measure whether a capability is offered for sale? If it is, would you suggest that the rules be that no other company could provide the same capability once it has been offered by one company?
Quote from: Dirk_HendrikDragonfly,
+1 for everything you said in this topic so far. It's great to see someone who did do his homework.
well, i am certainly no one to "tell" someone what they should do...i just feel that people should at least be presented with the proper information to make an informed decision.
I, personally, will not buy Behringer products...but I also won't fault someone who does. Its a decision that we have to make for ourselves, and whichever way you choose, thats fine. The world exists with both kinds of companies... innovators and imitators ....and pretty much always will. Which companies you choose to support in life are up to you. I choose to support the innovators whenever possible, though i'll be the first to tell you that that
can't always be the case.
Then again, maybe we should all just shut up and play our guitars !!! :D
Quote from: moving_electronsQuote from: DragonflyQuote from: moving_electrons
Quote from: DragonflyBehringer, to my knowledge, has yet to develop a product on their own...pretty much everything that they offer in their line is a copy of someone else's product...
DEQ2496 is a counter example.
Klark Teknik DN9340
I assume you are not saying they copied the DSP software program or other such technology.
I assume you are pointing out that there was an existing (really expensive but hopefully very nice) product on the market that provided 31 band digital equalization and parametric equalization. So there was a prior proof of concept and a product on the market from which to gauge interest.
The DEQ249 has added some additional capabilities beyond that and so could be considered as having incremental innovation.
I do see your comparison though.
exactly...
Quote
Is your measure whether a capability is offered for sale? If it is, would you suggest that the rules be that no other company could provide the same capability once it has been offered by one company?
No...im not saying anything to that effect whatsoever. I'm simply saying, that to my knowledge (which is by no means "all inclusive"), Behringer has yet to produce anything of its own design.
There will
always be companies that exist solely to produce products that imitate other companies products...and I'm not saying whether thats right or wrong. I'm simply saying that its a "personal choice" as to whether or not you support "parasitic" companies. I choose not to...you might choose otherwise, and thats fine.
What I
do think is wrong, however, is a blatent attempt to "fool" the consumer by directly copying the aesthetics and/or name of a previously established product.
BTW...i'll be introducing my new guitar soon, the Gibsun Less Poll ...it has a "classic" designed body shape, 2 humbucking pickups, and a carved top. :shock:
Quote from: mikebAll you people who think Behringer are great are probably exactly the same ones who will bitch and moan about a lack of 'new ideas' in a few years time when fewer manufacturers are making original pedals. Who'll bother starting a new pedal biz when pricing expectations of consumers have been warped, and when they might possibly have their product ripped off?
Purchase of Behringer producs is implicit approval of their business practices AND implicit approval of their out-sourcing of labour to third-world countries. How much is your moral position on these things worth? US$50 per stompbox?
Mike
i actually dont have anything from behringer except for a rackmount compressor that has performed flawlessly on the road for 5 years.
anyway, mark, you are right, but the sad thing is that most companies are going to "third world countries..." can China be considered as such?
anyway, you'd be surprised as to how much stuff that you own, sitting in your house at this very moment was made in a third world country.
take a look at all of the tags on your clothes.....
it's a sad affair, but it's true.
i guess my whole point in all of this, is that behringer - although they ripped boss off of their design, has not made a comparable product, but a much worse, plastic cased un-road worthy pedal only good for the occasional weekend warrior...where as boss is for the most part road worthy, and a superior product.
any serious guitarist can see that.....
anyway, no matter how cheesy behringer has been, i dont beleive it will be a serious threat to boss...or at least not any more.
Quote from: casey
anyway, mark, you are right, but the sad thing is that most companies are going to "third world countries..." can China be considered as such?
Yes - I've seen it for myself.
Quote from: casey
anyway, you'd be surprised as to how much stuff that you own, sitting in your house at this very moment was made in a third world country.
take a look at all of the tags on your clothes.....
it's a sad affair, but it's true.
I know all that, as do most people, but it doesn't mean you need to buy into it. Seeing as our countries, especially (the USA and Australia) are amongst those that have the most to lose, it also makes sense to me that we are the ones that should be 'on the lookout' the most. For example, don't buy any Pigtronix pedals either - their super-spammed phaser is made in China also. ;) ;) ;)
Maybe I'm just having a bad day - I got three phone calls from one of those !*^@%!^@% Indian call centres yesterday trying to sell me stuff. :evil: :)
Mike
I really agree with stupid marking trick. There are TONS of cheap pedal makers out there (Arion, new DOD, 'rogue'...plus MANY more) and none of them recieve any publicity. Just check out the HCFX forum on this topic. EVERYONE, myself included, was awaiting their release. I was curious to A/B them with the origional bosses and see what happens.
EVIL? Idk. I think they crossed the line when they made the pedals not only look the same, but, essentially, function the same. They all have the same number of pots. The colors. Similar names...They were _clearly_ ripoffs.
Nothing wrong with that. I own a Peavey Ultra 112 - same circuit as the 212, which, as far as I've heard, was at some point copy of the Fender Twin. Looks nothing like it, though. Nor was that advertised (as this is, indirectly). I just liked the sound, so I bought it.
I'm surprised that Roland hasn't sued Johnson yet. They make those pedals that look like Boss pedals, but about 1" longer. These cheapo Johnson pedals are up for sale all the time on ebay.
Here's an example: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=41416&item=7303898579&rd=1
but thats a TS9 clone...
RAISE YOUR HAND IF YOU LIKE MARSHALL AMPS
RIPOFF OF THE FENDER BASSMAN, SAME BASIC CIRCUIT WITH SLIGHT TWEAKS.
javacody - exactly my point. Everything is a ripoff.
But Behringer _was_ marketing them almost as boss pedals. I'm not saying that I think its good or bad, but I do think that boss was kinda justified. Still, I woulda been happy to play with them.
Quote from: javacodyRAISE YOUR HAND IF YOU LIKE MARSHALL AMPS
RIPOFF OF THE FENDER BASSMAN, SAME BASIC CIRCUIT WITH SLIGHT TWEAKS.
thats true, though Jim Marshall did make quite a few changes....
HOWEVER.....
Jim Marshall didnt package it in a tweed cabinet and call it a "Bassmaster" or a "Bossman"... Behringer would've....thats the difference....Behringer seems to have full intent to "mislead" the public into thinking that their product is the same product as EH and Boss....
ya...I'd have to tend to agree. Being a DIY'er, I'd say that I'd love to have the enclosures/parts for that cheap....but c'mon...it's just a little cheap to copy the shape/size/control layout/lettering, and slightly change the name...
I don't generally like BOSS, though I do think that most of their compact pedals are very well priced, but in this case...I'd say it's just stupid of Boring-ger to do that. But, notheless...it's boss...couldn't say I didn't expect to see a lawsuit coming...they've got the money (too bad I don't...stupid richness... :evil: )
Cheers,
Nish
i downsized a mackie 1202 for a behringer ub502 mixer. the behringer is obviously much lower quality, but i didn't need so many inputs, so it works out better for me. i would've gladly payed the mackie price for a similarly sized mixer made by mackie.
i think this just further devalues stompboxes in general, which will make it harder for a smaller company to make a living. people will be less inclined to pay the higher "boutique" prices when they can get 5 behringers for the same price.
in the US, everybody expects cheap goods. where it's made, who makes it, what they spray it with, the environmental impact, etc are little value when all you care about is cheap.
But......does it really matter??????
Stephen
Quote from: StephenGilesBut......does it really matter??????
Stephen
yes...it
absolutely does matter....
if you or someone in your family worked for Boss, Mackie, EH, etc....Behringer is not only taking food out of your mouth, but making it tougher for you to get pay raises....
think of it this way....
if YOU wrote a song, and some guy took your chords, lyrics, and melody, and re-recorded it...then sold it to Pepsi for $100k for use in a commercial...how would YOU feel if you get zero compensation for your creation ?
it ain't far fetched...ive
seen it happen before....
Again with the "taking food out of your mouth" premise..........geez
It'll matter a LITTLE when next the ask to close this forum down.
Aharon
Behringer was probably just jumping on the bandwagon. Lots of other companies copy Boss pedals pretty closely. I think Behringer is the only real visible company to do so.
I agree, Boss has the right to defend itself, I'm just saying this ain't the Crusades, the search for the Holy Grail, or David vs. Goliath. It's not that big of a deal.
Now, I'm a consumer on the lower end of the richness spectrum. I see a boss pedal for $80 and I see a Behringer pedal for $30. Now, I can't afford $80 and I'm not a gigging musician. If I didn't buy the Behringer pedal, I'd probably spend the money on fast food, a movie, or beer. So how is that taking money away from Boss? Does it really matter to you which worker who makes $1 a day gets that $1?
I've never purchased a new pedal. Never (Well, not never, when I was 16 I bought an OD1). What I have (that isn't homemade) follows:
* TS5 ($20 on ebay)
* Dano Chicken Salad ($30 on ebay)
* Dunlop Reissue Fuzz Face ($40 on ebay)
I think that the premise that I'm taking food out of Boss' employees mouths by buying Behringer products is just plain dumb.
you know its funny.... :lol: i was just thinking how roland is not american nor it's sub. boss. i am sure they hire alot of americans for distribution and such, but we are talking about two companies that both have their product made in asia....
anyway,
hey mike, i called you mark...sorry about that...wasnt paying too much attention i suppose.
well anyway, i think we've all beat this horse to death....
happy diy-ing folks! 8)
oooh weeeh - I`m guilty - :oops:
just found out, that I own a Bore-inger clone, too:
(to the rescue: got it for free)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/lectronix/bags594.jpg)
over the last years, I collected quite a series of different Boss-bags
(pic shows only one...);
Bore-inger jumped on, and started handing out shopping bags, also.[/img]
ain`t they a b*tch? - even copying marketing strategies!
Besides a shopping bag(I wonder how Hudson's Bay managed not to sue Wall Mart for stealing the idea of putting goods in a bag )does anybody have pictures of these allegedly similar looking products?,cause personally I would never confuse a B*ss with a Behrin*er,they are distinct enough.
Aharon
Quote from: casey
hey mike, i called you mark...sorry about that...wasnt paying too much attention i suppose.
I was assuming you mistook me for Mark Hammer, so was (quietly) taking it as a comment.... (http://prophecysound.com/images/emot-ninja.gif) :)
Mike
Quote from: AharonBesides a shopping bag(I wonder how Hudson's Bay managed not to sue Wall Mart for stealing the idea of putting goods in a bag )does anybody have pictures of these allegedly similar looking products?,cause personally I would never confuse a B*ss with a Behrin*er,they are distinct enough.
Aharon
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/Lurco/behringer15qs.jpg)[/img]
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/Lurco/3behringerCompactup.jpg)[/img]
Oh my! :shock: First glance, I thought that was a B*SS display. Took another look. Nope, sure isn't, but sure looks like it. I don't blame Roland at all. My .02 cents.
yeah, that's unconscienable
Quote from: Lurco
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/Lurco/behringer15qs.jpg)[/img]
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/Lurco/3behringerCompactup.jpg)[/img
Yep - those pics look different than what they "press-release" at the moment...
BUT:
in defense of Mr. Behringer, I have to admit that he indeed
is inventive,
and very, very aware of design-politics:
he filed 2 design-patents within 1 week
(for what looks to me at first glance the same thingy...):
http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=USD444169S&F=0&QPN=USD444169S
http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=USD444493S&F=0&QPN=USD444493S
now
that is cute...
:shock:
.....mountains out of molehills......bloody pathetic.........have a look at this!!!!!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/StephenGiles/mx802.gif)
like a bit of Behringer do you??
like your threads a little wider Sir?
I think you would find that Roland have a pretty healthy Balance Sheet!!
Stephen
:?:
look at the "blues driver" same blue package - same 3 knobs, called a "blues overdrive."
clones are clones, similar is similar, but this is over the edge.
I hadn't seen those,too close for comfort.
Aharon
That little circuit above is a mic preamp from the Behringer MX802 mixer. Nice drawing!
Stephen
And what is the amazing thing with this Mic-Preamp ?
Something like an industry-Standard in the last 20 years...
For me the "battle" is more interesting...
Behringer hat a big battle with Aphex about patent-infringement which was settled in the beginning of the 90´s......with some money...
The war was in Germany...
By presenting his new stuff at the NAMM-show he entered US-grounds with a complete different law system than europe...
With US-law you can destroy every of your competitives if you have enough money....only file as much court-cases as possible and your competitives can fill in for bankrupcy...you will get court regulation that you are not allowed to sell any unit until the court-case is finished...the court case will cost so much money and time that you will bust...even when you win after a long time later...
Remember the court-case about polaroid cameras....
Cloning Boss ist nothing new...there was a company called "Century" they made 100% clones of Boss...even in a Metal-case....PSK-pedals are very similar...
New is, that Roland got angry and now are ready for a battle....
I dont want choose to one side, but even when Behringer has roots (father) in the pharma-industry, I can only wish him the best....to survive this battle....maybe soon we will see Behringer-products under another company-name....with a "different" (fake-)owner....
Another possibilty (not really expected):
There was also a funny "battle" between Phonic and Alesis...Phonic cloned the (plasticbox)-Midiverb put it in an 19"-case, added an additional Tone-Control etc. and offered it 50$ cheaper than Alesis at the Frankfurt-Music-fair....They even didnt erase the copyright message in the Eprom...and screen-printed "The Programs" (listing) from the manual on the case, without even changing the letters....
I personally saw the (firstly) white face :shock: of Keith Barr changing to red :oops: when he saw it....I went over to him and asked: "Do you like this unit ?"....he answer was: "unbelievable...."......hmmm....later, the Alesis Microverb was made in Taiwan.....
And I believe, that I am the only owner of a Phonic Midiverb-clone....the prototype which I bought at the Phonic-booth at the end of the Frankfurt Music-Fair in 1987 for $150,--....in cash... :D
analogguru
you know, that it`s not allowed to sell stuff in FF/M... :lol:
I know....and knew....and its really complicated to get it out of the areal...but this is now history...18 years ago.....so I can say, normally you need papers for every unit to get it through the controls....really a buerocracy....
for this reason, I like this unit very much.... :D
But this was only the half part of the story, here is the rest:
Pre-Story:
When MXR busted, they split up into two groups: Alesis and ART
In 1987 I bought a lot of this Alesis plastic-stuff, the sound was not bad, but the plastic-case....so I put the ORIGINAL-PCB into a 19"-inch case, made some additional electronics (improvements) and screen-printed on the front-panel ALEXIS MIDIVERB PRO in the same letter-style like Alesis...I had it for fun with me on the booth where I participated, not for sales...
On the first day within 2 hours I had to remove it from the booth, cause Keith Barr made some interventions.....to avoid problems I put it somewhere in the privacy part of the booth...two days later I was missing the unit....and got nervous....what happened ?....the really bad guys from ART had their booth about 10m away, and they saw the spectacle with Keith Barr, and when I went two days later to the toilette, they "stole" my unit to make a picture of it...as a birthday-present for Keith Barr...
The Phonic-booth was across the walkway, for this reason I knew this unit from the beginning, and had 5 days time for negotiations....
Keith Barr went there 2 hours before the FFM was closing...so the Phonic-CLONE could last there for the whole FFM....
Do you understand now more about such :shock: :oops: :shock: :oops: faces, my really nice and friendly talk with Keith and the effort to buy this unit and bring it into my home ?
Everytime when I am sad and I look at it, it makes me really smile.... :D :D :D
All the time it remembers me, how funny music-industry-business can be.....
analogguru
Quote from: analogguruI dont want choose to one side, but even when Behringer has roots (father) in the pharma-industry, I can only wish him the best....to survive this battle....maybe soon we will see Behringer-products under another company-name....with a "different" (fake-)owner....
analogguru
I don't think Behringer is in much financial or product intro danger. Basically they have to change the box, logo and marketing sheets etc. and ship. That might take 60-90 days. Scrapping the inventory in the pipeline will cost but after that there is not much cost. There is little damage Boss can show so not much to collect damages on unless they want to publically state that there was a dip in sales.
I only want to have the money, what the court-case(s) (including lawyers) will cost, and I can rest for the rest of my life....
I assume, they will sue him for damages $ 50.000.000,-- or more to destroy him....the case is in America....remember Ivana Trump ?
so the costs: starting level $ 500.000,--
analogguru
Quote from: analogguruI only want to have the money, what the court-case(s) (including lawyers) will cost, and I can rest for the rest of my life....
I assume, they will sue him for damages $ 50.000.000,-- or more to destroy him....the case is in America....remember Ivana Trump ?
so the costs: starting level $ 500.000,--
analogguru
Well, you can always sue but you have to be able to win. You have to substantiate damages. These products have not even shipped. Now if they ship them with cosmetics that are not particularly confusing and put a disclaimer on the box etc. there liability is low.
Of course I am sure both companies can of course spend lots of money on attorneys, travel etc. Still at some point, once there is not really anything left for Behringer to have to change, there is really not any financial reason for Boss to continue the suit. Usually both parties will go for some settlement that allows each to claim some victory and they go on to the real battle for share of customer "spend".
Dang! That display sure looks like Boss pedals. :shock:
Quote from: moving_electrons...and they go on to the real battle for share of customer "spend".
Oh that sounded so cold :shock:
I should have said ..."then go on to the real job of satisfying the needs of their customers."
I believe Roland has enough assets to be able to loose $ 1.000.000,-- without even feeling it.
Behringer first has to invest $ 500.000,-- and for my opinion this will hurt and cost substance.
Roland is much, much bigger than Behringer and for my opinion has also more margin on their products = profit = reserves
Roland is angry about Behringer - if not, they would ignore him...like all the other cloning companies.
And in economy only one thing counts: money
Money you will get with turnaround, and this is measured by market-presence (percentage).
Funny, that Danelectro has recognized this battle and reacted, and participates in the game with a special product line for $ 19,--/unit.
a normal market reaction to keep the market-shares even without profit.
I remember such a battle with ONLY cola-bottles in a leisure-park...
A big company made a minus on every sold cola-bottle for about $ 0,1 for one year, only to destroy a competitive ....than the competitive busted...and the big company sold their cola-bottles in the next year for the normal price (4 times higher)
this game has a name: dumping...and who invented this game ? Japanese people?
we will see the future...only the strong survive,
analogguru
Just thinking about the real miracle of DIY.
you start off just wanting to make a pedal. ...
Next thing you know, you have learnt how to solder, do metalwork, use computer graphics, etch, use test gear, electronic design, PCB layout, painting...
to say nothing of an education in the darker side of human nature & capitalism :shock:
Where else can you get an education like this?
Quote from: analogguruBehringer first has to invest $ 500.000,-- and for my opinion this will hurt and cost substance.
I don't think so. I cannot find numbers on Behringer's turnover in 2004 but in 2003 it was $130 Million US dollars with a growth rate of 40%. I am sure they would rather not spend $500k but it won't cause particular hardship.
Quote from: analogguru
I remember such a battle with ONLY cola-bottles in a leisure-park...
A big company made a minus on every sold cola-bottle for about $ 0,1 for one year, only to destroy a competitive ....than the competitive busted...and the big company sold their cola-bottles in the next year for the normal price (4 times higher)
this game has a name: dumping...and who invented this game ? Japanese people?
I would imagine the strategy goes back to the begining of man.
Technically though dumping is when you sell below cost to damage a competitor. It is usually illegal. But your point is well taken. What you describe is common in deregulated industries such as airlines. When a new competitor comes into a hub airport, the existing dominant player drops prices at that airport until the competitor is squeezed out and then raises prices back up. If they have reduced the competition sufficiently they raise above the original price. Legal too.
One of the dangers of going up against the big guys.
Quote from: Paul Perry (Frostwave)Just thinking about the real miracle of DIY.
you start off just wanting to make a pedal. ...
Next thing you know, you have learnt how to solder, do metalwork, use computer graphics, etch, use test gear, electronic design, PCB layout, painting...
to say nothing of an education in the darker side of human nature & capitalism :shock:
Where else can you get an education like this?
agreed :D
<nice "derail" Paul>
I'm not fond of Behringer since I made the mistake of buying one of their knockoffs a few years ago and I regret the decision. I wanted a Mackie 1604 but when I went to the store they had a pile of Behringer clones on sale for 1/3 the price of the Mackie. Figuring I could use the difference towards another piece of gear I bought the Behringer after a bit of hand ringing.
Bear in mind that I've used quite a few Mackie mixers over the years.
Within 1 year the Behringer started having reliability problems. The signal would cut out on one side of the stereo buss, usually during recording of course. It was very annoying and distracting to stop what I was doing to tap on various parts of the mixer to get it working again.
Luckily I got another mixer and now the Behringer is back in the box. I might take it apart someday and try to figure out where the intermittency is coming from so that I can use it as a spare.
My point is that Behringer's strategy of imitating competitive products is misleading and it tricked me into buying an obviously inferior product. I'll never buy another Behringer product.
Ironically, Mackie has started producing their products in China just like Behringer has been doing all along. I hope they have better Q.C. than Behringer!
Behringer have gone way too far here.
Not only the look and feel but the *product line*.
The false claims of Roland's endorsement puts the nail in their coffin! Pretty much blatent theft. The boutique cloners at least disguise their activities :).
Apparently Behringer haven't stopped there. They are cloning EH pedals as well:
http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2005/01/behringers-dirt-cheap-stompboxes-look.html
QuoteI'll never buy another Behringer product.
That's crossed my mind as well.
Lurco's picture does it for me. At first glance, I thought he had posted a Boss display on top, then was comparing it to a Behringer pedalboard below. I thought this at second and third glance as well.
Good discussion!
I got a different impression from Lurco's pictures - I thought he was comparing how many Behringer pedals and Boss pedals you could buy for the same money! :lol:
Seriously though, isn't it interesting? Life evolves on earth, and eventually becomes so complex that bacteria, viruses and parasites take advantage of it...
Computers start out simple, but eventually engineers make them so complex that viruses, phages and parasites take advantage of them...
Business law and economics starts out simple, but eventually politicians and lawyers make it so complicated that...
Quote from: Ge_Whiz
Business law and economics starts out simple, but eventually politicians and lawyers make it so complicated that...
Law doesn't become complex because of lawyers. The law became more detailed because society became vastly more complex and interdependent. Therefore rules and the interpretation of rules grows.
For example, a couple hundred years ago you as the buyer were responsible for telling if a horse you were buying was healthy and sane. Why? Because it was relatively straight forward to test and tell rapidly. So there was almost not seller liability. Today, you have absolutely no way to tell realistically is a product was designed properly for it's intended purpose. You have to rely on the promise of the manufacturer that it is. Therefore liability transferred overtime as products became more complex.
Today we have an extremely big set on interdependencies in our societies. There is necessarily going to be a need for a lot of parsing of rules. Blaming attorneys is like blaming electricians because we have a lot of wires connecting our electronic equipment together.
Anybody wanna defend politicians? :lol:
The pic is unbelievable :shock:
In one hand, it is the most blantant ripp off I've ever seen, even colors are similar. In the other hand, I remember when I was 15 and at this time I would have been verry happy to get dirt cheap FX pedals.
Quote from: Ge_WhizAnybody wanna defend politicians? :lol:
I'm happy to defend SOME politicians, but only if the thread moves to the OT zone. Sometimes politicians get the electors they deserve :wink: