And, I must say, it works perfectly.
(http://www.tonepad.com/fpstuff/DSC05017.JPG)
Fp
E-Bow work-a-like ?
Andrew
That would be my guess too...
Interesting.... :twisted:
yeah: a sustainator...
8)
Was it THAT easy!?
:)
Possible project on tonepad?
Was it THAT easy to build one?
Please tell us more... :mrgreen:
It was easy... I mean, the 3rd attempt was . :shock:
I won't be posting this project, but I will answer questions, so go ahead and ask. (Please, serious, experienced builders, no beginners) (I have nothing against beginners).
Fp
Question: Schematic? :twisted:
it's online. search the archives. I won't answer questions that are anwered elsewere.
Fp
A 2 station AM radio receiver that doubles and an ebow??
-opps :oops: - sorry that was my guess... I left for a while... Francisco was quick with the answer
Question: is it this one :D
(http://www.logosfoundation.org/elektron/ebow_amp.gif)
does it work in the same mannor as an ebow? it looks like it's been designed to fit in a pickup hole...
Corbs,
Yes. Yes. No.
What did you use for the coils?
How critical is the placement of the coils?
Quote from: Fp-www.Tonepad.comWas it THAT easy!?
It is when you are
The Tone God. All others were just disciples/hanger-ons. :lol:
Do I get a prize for guessing first ? ;)
Forget asking about schematics folks. The biggest question that would be helpful to others is what wire size(s) and turn ratios are the coils ?
Andrew
The pole pieces of a guitar pickup, if I build a second one they will be 1/2 of a pole piece.
I don't know, but the spacing for these is 1.2" (almost the same as the ebow, so I read somewhere).
Fp
Quote
Do I get a prize for guessing first ? Wink
Forget asking about schematics folks. The biggest question that would be helpful to others is what wire size(s) and turn ratios are the coils ?
Yeah, the same as all others: access to tonepad :)
#38 and #42, no turns ratios, only one coil per bobbin. AH, and I must mention: I DID NOT COPY THE EBOW. I have NEVER seen one other than in pictures.
Fp
Quote from: Fp-www.Tonepad.comYeah, the same as all others: access to tonepad :)
Cool. :)
Quote#38 and #42, no turns ratios, only one coil per bobbin. AH, and I must mention: I DID NOT COPY THE EBOW. I have NEVER seen one other than in pictures.
Good job. So the same number of turns on each coil but of different guage ? How many turns on each coil ?
Andrew
:)
Thanks. No. 200 for the output, 1000 for the input... you figure out which wire goes in which ;)
Fp
What resistance do the coils have?
I didn't measure, I'd have to unsolder them to measure, so I won't.
But DC resistance is not that important, just go by the turns.
Fp
QuoteBut DC resistance is not that important, just go by the turns.
It's not crucial, but it is important; at least it's important that it be low enough to let the 386 get enough current into the drive coil at low voltages.
Say, under 4 ohms :wink:
I'm confident with my calculations... my aim was (since you ask!) 8 ohm out, 100 ohm in.
Fp
Did you use a blocking cap on the input coil?
Same circuit as the schematic, so no.
What's the 4th electrolythic cap for? Supply filtering?
yes.
Nicely done Francisco.
Quote from: Fp-www.Tonepad.comif I build a second one they will be 1/2 of a pole piece.
Fp
Yes, I suspect the next one will be much smaller ;)
-Eric
:?:
current draw...
:?:
Idle: 2mA
full power: 100mA
(note: I'll check those values again tomorrow) :wink:
Is the LED only for visual effect? And where did you connected it in the schematic?
I must say that my first thought was that it could be an active pickup for playing Punk. In those cases 2 strings is usually enough.
The LED is just a power indicator. But it's very useful for finding the correct position. It can be left out, but you'd have go line it up in the dark.
Fp
Hello there...You know I posted about similar work on this forum some time ago and got flamed over it... :shock: ...so I retreated back to where I came from...Project Guitar...nevertheless, 800+ contributions later and over 16,000 visits...we've advanced a little further...actually the DIY sustainer is a reality as a result for all six strings...
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7512&pid=200733&st=810&#entry200733
Here's a pic of a couple of drivers I've made but there are more examples by others....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/driverphoto2.jpg)
I've even created a (as far as I know) pickup/driver combination and posted a step by step tutorial on how it was made...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/PD5.jpg)
Anyway...dont hang out here to often...responded to a tip...not to dis' this work either...but if people would like to know more and maybe even add to the discussion....make your way over to PG and join in
psw
I'm kind of a broken record when this topic comes up, but I feel it's very important to call these devices, say "DIY sustainers", and NOT "Ebow work-alikes. The physical design of the Ebow (ie. the ridges on the bottom) is absolutely key to the full range of Ebow technique. The sustain function of the Ebow works hand in hand with these ridges to produce an incredible array of plucked and bowed effects. The *infinitely held note* is only one aspect of Ebow technique. You can hear more advanced Ebow techniques at:
http://www.ebow.com/ebow/sounds.htm
Kerry M
Quite right...there's not a lot of detail here but the picture suggests that this is just a driver...
The ebow is such a simple and elegant design...and surprisingly difficult to reprodce (although it's been done)...
The Sustainer though has it's own vocab of techniques, is more polyphonic and more easily integrates into a guitarist's existing right hand technique in particular...
Fair call though
pete
who`s gonna build the first hexaphonic sustainator... :?: :idea: :?:
Quote from: puretubewho`s gonna build the first hexaphonic sustainator... :?: :idea: :?:
I have never tried any of the Fernandes style sustainors, but I can imagine it would be cool (and useful) to be able to toggle the sustain function on/off for individual strings. I need to get one of those Fernandes Sustainor thingies.
Kerry M
QuoteYou know I posted about similar work on this forum some time ago and got flamed over it...
Just out of curiousity - I did a search on all the posts you've ever done here, and read the threads. I didn't notice any flames in the threads. Did I miss something?
You did mention some PMs with flaming content, but that's not something the public can see.
So was there other flaming, perhaps under a different logon? This forum is usually quite civil.
PSW, that's pretty cool.
I'd like to build one of those as well. On which page of the thread is the step by step tutorial?
Fp
Francisco,
Did you wind the coils by hand?
Yes, and the cores were glued to the pcb before winding... Makes winding a lot harder, but that's what I did.
Fp
Quote from: puretubewho`s gonna build the first hexaphonic sustainator... :?: :idea: :?:
ME.... :D
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/drvlighton1.jpg)
On the flaming issue...not it mainly came from one Mr Coffee through PM's...who claimed extensive expertise and
many years of experimenting with them...plus extensive knowledge of what others have done...
A quick look at all his posts showed no useful contributions by Mr C when this subject came up....
My appologies to the good people here...I wont bother repeating the comments...mainly he doubted (insisted) that the technology that allowed the above drivers to work didn't exist...but mostly was distressed that I didn't explicitly explain to him how it worked....no loss IMO...
There was another fellow who was even worse from another forum...but that's another story...
Anyway...on the hex driver...to really get true hexophonic sustain you're probably going to need a hex pickup and six driving amps...hmmmm
Also I found that my hex drivers didn't like string bending...eventually I worked out a way of mounting it on the bridge to overcome this but the problems with alignment and EMI were pretty great so I've abandoned the work on hex drivers for now...
One problem I also had is that the fields of each driver effected the other. While one string is fairly easy to drive....multipule strings have their own problems....hex drivers even more...
Anyway...R.G. has added some really useful contributions over at PG and I'm more that happy to help people who want to give it a go over there...(cant be everywhere)...
There's a tutorial in the Tutorial, Electronics section off the thread from the Main Index/Topics page...but I think my pickup/driver pics are at about page 48 or so...yes it is a very long thread...
So...on the original post is this a DIY ebow...is one coil a pickup and the other a driver??
thanks to those who came over to visit...pete
PSW: yes it is. Although it shouldn't be called that, as I said I've never being in the pressence of an Ebow, this isn't an ebow, it just does what the ebow does.
One of the coils is a pickup the other one a driver.
Fp
...You know it looks very much like the device in the ebow patent...before they came up with the ergonomic case...You should try and make a box that has skids to ride the outer strings and you'll find it easier to play....
I'm not sure if this has been posted before but here's a dutch ebow circuit which uses a small transformer as the driver and a telephone pickup as the driver...whatever that is...It looks like He's actually made a mold of an actual ebow to cast the thing in epoxy....
http://logosfoundation.org/kursus/4047.html
Someone did an acurate translation for us on the PG Sustainer Thread...
Driving a single string is easier, but the principle is the same for all six...The guitar's pickup requires buffering to prevent loading it down...actually it needs a bit of an extra boost, the amount depends a little on how hot your pickups are...changing the sensitivity control (gain) provides a range of effects from volume from swells to driver distortion to more subtle harmonics on the decay of a note...different to an ebow but not a one trick pony...
BTW...do you know if you switch the pase of the coils (say switch the driver leads around) it'll suppress the fundumental and drive the harmonics, usually an octave above. With an ebow you can move it for more control of the effect...with the sustainer, it's not always the octave sometimes it's a higher harmonic like an octave and a fifth...very effective...try it out
Nice build...a lot of people talk/ask about building an "ebow" device but not many seem to succeed...it's really quite easy in principle...perhaps winding coils put's people off...
Could I ask...how does it interact with the pickups...? I believe an ebow interacts with the pickups magnetic fields to create interesting effects (tremolo, distortion, etc)...do you get interferace if your driver gets too close to the active pickup...? Squeel or anything...I never quite understood why the ebow wouldn't, like my sustainer, create problems, but maybe it's self contained pickup solves the problem...
cheers...psw
I don't get squeal, I did with my first experiment where I overwound the pickup and did it in a very messy way.
And it does interfere with the pickup's magnetic field, there are sweet spots and also dead spots, so you can do the swells and other effects.
Fp
Quote from: Fp-www.Tonepad.comI don't get squeal, Fp
That's interesting...we had quite some debate whether the ebow, being independant of the guitar's electronics (having it's own pickup), solved problems we have with sustainers that used the guitar's pickups as the source....hmmmm...never did get an answer...have to think about this a little more...cheers
Cool work fp. I missed this thread somehow...
Anyhow, can I ask why the first two attempts didn't work out?
The first, WAY too many windings in the pickup coil, WAY too thick wire in the output coil. Squeal, too strong string vibration
Second, still too many windings in the pickup coil. Squeal.
Third, success.
PSW, you need to pot the coils, otherwise it will squeal.
Fp
Yeah...potting's important...I've wound them with woodworking PVA and an outer layer of tape...
The squeel we get is from the interferance between the bridge pickup which is both the source for the driver and the output for the guitar. The solution is distance...the driver goes up near the neck...you'd get the same phenomenon if the driver and pickup coils were closer or facing each other or there was too much power...
Becaust the sustainer coil is so much larger and more power is required (although we still use preamped LM386's) the EMI is far greater. It's easier to drive one string from a mono source than it is to drive 6 sitrings from a mono source...but it does work...
Anyway...Fp...you asked:
QuoteI'd like to build one of those as well. On which page of the thread is the step by step tutorial?
Good question as the thread is now 57 pages long.... :shock:
So I located the first two installments on page 49...
I also got a little time to do installment 3 on page 57 and put a link on that post back to the first installments...here's a link to that then:
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7512&pid=201531&st=840&#entry201531
So...at this stage the Driver/Pickup Combo looks like this...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/pup-driver1b.jpg)
This is a pasive single coil strat pickup with a driver on top housed in a hollowed out strat pickup cover...both the driver and pickup have survived the process and work well...this combo will replace the neck pickup of my strat providing a passive neck pickup just as before which the sustainer off...and a driver with the sustainer on...turned out kind of nice...
Sorry to hi-jack the thread Fp.... :oops:
QuoteThe first, WAY too many windings in the pickup coil, WAY too thick wire in the output coil. Squeal, too strong string vibration
Second, still too many windings in the pickup coil. Squeal.
Third, success.
Very interesting. I wonder what affect the oversize wire on the output coil has? I guess it's a delicate balance on the number of windings, too...
oversize wire in the output coil means more turns in order to get the same DC resistance, so you end up with a more powerful driver.
Fp
Hmm... I thought it had something to do with DC resistance. But, smaller wire with less turns sure seems to be counterintutive! I would have thought that it had to do with the number of turns, not wire gage. :?
I remember one cat who succesfully built an ebow workalike, but he had problems with something burning up - I think it was the 386...
it does have to do with dc resistance. Thinner wire has more resistance, so you need less lenght to get the same resistance as thicker wire.
QuoteI remember one cat who succesfully built an ebow workalike, but he had problems with something burning up - I think it was the 386...
I take it that wasn't his successful build, I wouldn't call it a success if something was burning up! :shock:
Fp
QuoteThinner wire has more resistance
than thicker wire for the same amount of current. OK, I get it now.
Quotetake it that wasn't his successful build, I wouldn't call it a success if something was burning up!
Yeah, technically you're correct. His first couple of tries didn't work out, at least that is how I remember it. :wink:
I think that's the guy who said he had used #22AWG wire... That's WAY too thick wire, if he really meant #22 he was lost. A good number to use could be (according to my calculations) #34. I used #38 because that's what I had (the other I had was #30 and that's too thick).
Anything between #34 and #38 will work on the output coil, at least in theory.
Fp
Question: did you used a magnet for the coils?
Quote from: Fp-www.Tonepad.comThe pole pieces of a guitar pickup, if I build a second one they will be 1/2 of a pole piece....
Fp
Yeah, but are they magnetized?
I used steel pole pieces that are not magnetized and glued a small rare earth magnet from radio shack in the bottom. I think the orientation matters, as does the winding direction. I'd have to check to see what I did.
Of course one could use magnetized pole pieces, I think.
Fp
Ok, Digging up a very old topic i know
Its coming up to easter and i have holidays and i would like to try and build this
But first i want to know, Using the Schimatics and all the information in this topic, do i have enough info to build it?
Just to clarify all that ive read
The coils are pole peices from a Gtar pickup spaced 1.2"
From lookign at the picture, and info its 200 turns on the output with #38
1000 turns on input with size #42 wires?
You said you potted the coils, did you pot it like you would pickups and do in a double boiler in wax?
and u used steel pole pieces that are not magnetized and glued a small rare earth magnet from radio shack in the bottom. so what orientation and direction did you wind? Also the size of the poles radius wise, how long this the diameter, say if i cant get a pole peice from a pickup, i should be able to get any steel pole the same size and keep the same number of turns?
Is the earth magnet necissary, not sure where ill get one
Thanks
Also was any of it expensive? or hard to find?
It's tempting to try and build this thing since ebows are hard to come by at the moment - it's like every music store has them back ordered!
If you do decide to have a go this stuff (http://www.sculpt.com/catalog_98/craft/craft.htm#friend) might be useful for creating an enclosure for it. Not to mention other possibilities. Custom knobs/parts etc...
Quote from: Paul Marossy on May 10, 2007, 06:59:43 PM
It's tempting to try and build this thing since ebows are hard to come by at the moment - it's like every music store has them back ordered!
Well, I say hold out until you can get a real one. I think it's the most remarkable piece of one-man engineering in the history of the electric guitar.
Gizmotron (http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:DwmBeRNkd5sJ:www.asahi-net.or.jp/~si6k-inue/other4.html+gizmotron&hl=de&ct=clnk&cd=29&gl=de)
QuoteWell, I say hold out until you can get a real one. I think it's the most remarkable piece of one-man engineering in the history of the electric guitar.
Actually, I've got two coming to me as of last night. I should have them both within a week. I can't wait to start playing around with them! :icon_surprised:
I agree, it's a freakin' clever invention! I have a copy of the patent it was filed under that I like to mull over once in a while. It would be a fun experiment to try and build a working one just for kicks. :icon_cool:
has anyone tried this on a bass guitar? I have a 5 string and that big low A might be really hard to get moving. I do play with some distortion though which might make it easier.
IMO E-bow do its work better on the bass strings (thick string = "more magnetic substance").
ok, didn't know if i'd need a bigger coil to keep that string moving or what.
Quote from: Paul Marossy on May 12, 2007, 12:02:23 PM
I agree, it's a freakin' clever invention! I have a copy of the patent it was filed under that I like to mull over once in a while. It would be a fun experiment to try and build a working one just for kicks. :icon_cool:
Conceptualizing the original idea and designing the electronics would be remakable enough, but the mechanical engineering of the package, and the ergonomics --amazing.
-Eric
I think there are many people that have tried E-bow with bass. Just browse the Net and ask couple questions.
Quote from: Dirk_Hendrik on June 18, 2005, 12:15:54 PM
I must say that my first thought was that it could be an active pickup for playing Punk. In those cases 2 strings is usually enough.
*camp drama queen voice*
ooh, what a bitch!
I was reading thru the original ebow patent a little bit. It states that the input & output coils have a magnetic core made of Alnico-5 in "the preferred embodiment". Just out of curiousity, what are guitar pickup magnets/pole pieces usually made out of?
I wonder how much of a difference it makes...
they are usually alnico 5. some pickups are starting to use the rare earth magnet mentioned earlier in this post, samarium cobalt is what i think its called.
I thought that they were Alnico-5, but I couldn't remember for sure. :o
EDIT: You know, I also noticed that the generic schematic shown on the patent documents shows a pot between the output coil input and the opamp feedback loop - it's called a "variable gain" control in the patent docs. I wonder if that would be useful in controlling oscillations in a DIY circuit?
QuoteI think there are many people that have tried E-bow with bass.
Michael Manring is one of those guys. :icon_wink:
An ebow will 'work' a thick string...... I know this, because i managed to 'play' a piece of coathanger wire :icon_wink:
Also, that is how i found the ebow was magnetised, the chunk of wire stuck to the ebow.
As an aside, the trouble that people jhave had trying to DIY the ebow, even with the patent published, goes to back the saying of Edison, "1% inspiration, 99% perspiration" (or similar). Anyway, I guess the patent is over now, so go at it, guys & gals!
QuoteAnyway, I guess the patent is over now, so go at it, guys & gals!
I did see that the duration of the patent was 14 years. I'm sure they must have extended it...
Anyhow, yeah, I've noticed that it really goes to town on the Low E string. It's seems to like a little more mass than the smaller gauge strings. :icon_cool:
Yes, thicker strings respond more because of their mass, added magnetic material and lower tension...bass strings respond particularly easily.
The Sustainer Project (now on it's 188th page ;)) http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?s=fed4c670ccc6452300849a87dc2cb2d1&showtopic=7512&pid=330039&st=2805&#entry330039 (http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?s=fed4c670ccc6452300849a87dc2cb2d1&showtopic=7512&pid=330039&st=2805&#entry330039)
has had many advances in sustainer technology, but getting very light strings (0.09's) to vibrate well, has so far eluded us.
Interestingly, for all the sustainer stuff that has been built, no one has really built up a DIY ebow in the manner of this thread. Universally people are swayed by the total package of the ebow, it's ergonomics and design...while easy enough to get something that works, it is hard to make something as good to use...
pete
PS...Happy Upcomming Milestone Birthday Paul Perry ;)
QuoteUniversally people are swayed by the total package of the ebow, it's ergonomics and design...while easy enough to get something that works, it is hard to make something as good to use...
I think for fun I'm going to try and build a useable, practical clone of the Ebow just to see how it could be done with easy to obtain materials. It's a project that requires you to be resourceful in several different areas, that's for sure. The housing will be the biggest challenge, I think.
here's 2 short (20 sec) videos of it in action:
http://www.tonepad.com/fpstuff/not_ebow_test1.divx.avi
http://www.tonepad.com/fpstuff/not_ebow_test2.divx.avi
This is the second build I tried, changed the magnet size a little (made them shorter).
Fp
i'd really like to watch these, but they don't play. i have the entire divx bundle installed... what gives?
maybe if you download them it'll work, they're about 3MB each.
Has anybody been able to see them?
I watched them a few minutes ago.
yup, downloaded and they worked. cool!
I'm doing a bit of a side project from the sustainer stuff...found by dismantaling a relay you can get a coil out of it that could serve as an effective pickup coil for a DIY ebow...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/relay1.jpg)
more details when more is done... pete