Has anyone picked one up yet? Any gut shots?
Just bought a V-Amp 2 ... not bad.. not bad...
http://www.behringer.com/TO800/index.cfm?lang=ENG
I'm certainly gonna get the new ...er... "Vintage Tube Overdrive" to mod.
LOFL!!!!!! Now THAT's original! :lol: :lol: :lol:
-----------
Jimbo
http://images.misupply.com/products/original/Boss/21767.jpg
http://www.behringer.com/BO100/BO100_medium.jpg
I mean... COME ON!!!! This is so damn rediculous!!!!
----------
Jimbo
http://images.misupply.com/products/original/Boss/21767.jpg
...Buuilt like a tank.
http://www.behringer.com/BO100/BO100_medium.jpg
...after a little normal' use it might crank
Quote from: JimRaydenhttp://images.misupply.com/products/original/Boss/21767.jpg
http://www.behringer.com/BO100/BO100_medium.jpg
I mean... COME ON!!!! This is so damn rediculous!!!!
Last I heard they were being sued (http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=2054) over that.
They are all surface mount. Pots are long shafted trimmers mounted directly to the board. Fairly cheesey plastic case. I opened one up as soon as they came in at work. Haven't taken any pictures but could...
Quote from: stumper1They are all surface mount. Pots are long shafted trimmers mounted directly to the board. Fairly cheesey plastic case. I opened one up as soon as they came in at work. Haven't taken any pictures but could...
So I'm going to have to get out my magnifying glass then? Doh! If I recall, Line6 stomps are SMD, and Jeorge managed to do some mods on the modulation effects to improve their sound quality for the Tsunami Auction.
It will be interesting to see how close these clones are to the originals.
SMD soldering isn't too bad, though personally if I was going to put a lot of work into a pedal, I'd probably spring the extra $20-30 for a real (used) Boss pedal over the behringer plastic one. I also don't have an assortment of surface-mount resistors, caps, etc, so it's a convenience issue. The price difference does look more attractive as you start moving into the modulation areas, TS-808/9 clones, etc, but quite a few of them aren't worth modding... IMO.
That said, I picked up a used V-Amp 2 my freshman year for practicing and recording, and was pretty satisfied with it. For $20, some of these pedals might be worth the price as-is; I'm interested in a few of them such as the reverb, because I'm betting it's not a Boss clone (Behringer already has reverb algorithms in their other products). I was pretty surprised by the verb quality on the V-Amp and virtualizer rackmount unit.... though the Line6 ToneCore reverb pedal is coming down the line, and I've heard nothing but good things about the DigiVerb... :)
I want to check out the reverb pedal as well. My guess is that Behringer "borrowed" the reverb from one source or another, but for some reason, that bugs me less than copying the guts of a Tube Screamer or DS-1, simply because it is so much harder to reverse engineer a reverb.
My (informed) guess is more than one company has based their reverbs on the Lexicon 224. This was a TTL design, so the algorithms were essentially hardwired in the architecture, and could be reverse engineered by tracing out the schematic and applying a lot of brainpower.
Hmm...looking at the Behringer reverb box, it does look IDENTICAL to the Boss RV-5. Maybe they did copy the algorithms. If so, they would at least have to reprogram the algorithms - if they just copied the code, that is a copyright violation, and they will get majorly busted. On the other hand, if the Roland algorithms aren't patented, and Behringer reverse engineers the algorithms, Roland can't do much to stop them. Most reverb algorithms aren't patented, with the exception of those at Yamaha and Creative Labs, as they are generally considered industry secrets.
My favorite Behringer story (from someone in the audio industry)*: At the AES show where they introduced their Mackie copy mixers, someone came up to the Behringer booth, looked at their mixer, and said "That is a Mackie mixer." The Behringer rep replied "Well, our mixers do have much of the same functionality as the Mackie mixers." The reply was "No. That is a MACKIE mixer. I can still see the word MACKIE under the paint!" Apparently Behringer had not completed their "prototype" for the show, and had simply spray painted a Mackie mixer white!!!!!
Now, of course, Behringer's corporate headquarters are located 3 miles down the road from Mackie's headquarters in Washington State. It makes me wonder if Behringer has dug a tunnel under Mackie...
Sean Costello
* I think this is a true story, but it might be along the lines of "and the killer's hook was still attached to the car door!"
I don't really mind about the whole "Behringer Steals Ideas" thing, because it's only natural for a market to seek the most efficient means of production and copy proven ideas.
Berhinger may be cheap, but they're also plastic.
Boss may cost a bit more, but they're also reliable.
Freedom of choice is a wonderful thing.
Indeed - I'll be in Prague this weekend, so I'll be on the lookout!!
Stephen
I only wonder how good the bypass signal is.
QuoteOn the other hand, if the Roland algorithms aren't patented, and Behringer reverse engineers the algorithms, Roland can't do much to stop them.
Actually, in the USA in the 21st century, that is probably illegal too, under the DMCA. Reverse-engineering computer code can quickly land them in court...
http://www.chillingeffects.org/reverse/
Let's say I program my reverb code into an Atmel microprocessor and then set the copy-protection bit to prevent anyone from reading the code in the chip. The copy protection can clearly be circumvented by a technique called "glitching" and the code read from the microprocessor... once the code has been read, it can be disassembled and analyzed... this would clearly be a violation of the DMCA.
regards, Jack
I bet it wont last very long.
All very negative...............
Stephen
i'm not :) i'm happy :)
Cool! Yugo-Stomps!!!
I ordered 2 "vintage" Bore*ng*r pedals from one of germany`s largest music stores for educational purposes 2 days ago,
and got this reply yesterday:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/lectronix/borey.jpg)
[translation]:
"... the B* pedals are not yet deliverable at the moment.
B* currently can`t yet foresee a date of delivery..."
:?:
The law suit with roland must be working???
Hmm
This might be German sense of humour,
after all,...they may know you in some way.
e-bay is full of their stuff meanwhile!
err, I wonder if these "vintage" pedals have anything to do with the well-respected B*ss line of pedals... :
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/latronax/Vinphas016-2.jpg)
(pic from april, 2005)
Quote from: radio...they may know you in some way...
yes, that mail-order company knows me since ~20 years - spent over $ 50.000 on P.A. & studio-equipment there over the time...
http://search.ebay.de/behringer-vintage-phaser_W0QQfkrZ1QQfromZR8 :?:
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&fkr=1&from=R8&satitle=behringer+vintage+phaser :?:
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&fkr=1&from=R8&satitle=behringer+pedal&category0=
The shameless roland rip offs are out.
just the "vintage" ones that dont appear to be available.....
Obviously I entered a different search ,of which I only remember
"buy now" and "worldwide". I doubt such an amount of withdraw
is possible,so I apologize and try to find entire reference at home!
Greetings JMErnzer
strange the ebay auctions dont show the *actual* pedals. Just those crappy CGI ones on the boreinger website.
Anyway,
I guess anyone who had,tried,or played EH-Products will not be tricked
I play my BigMuff and StonePhaser everyday.
On the Bor*inger side,at least inEurope ,many players were not happy
with the Vamp sounds and will not be tempted to try other"developments"
of this manufacturer.
Greetings JMErnzer
Quote from: radio
On the Bor*inger side,at least inEurope ,many players were not happy
with the Vamp sounds and will not be tempted to try other"developments"
of this manufacturer.
Greetings JMErnzer
´
Well, after designing Vamp, B* has done lots of "research" on guitar sounds and effects, so the new ones might not be that bad at all. :)
----------
Jimbo
Quote from: nelson...
The shameless roland rip offs are out....
in my eyes I gotta admit they don`t look like cheap dirty B*ss-rip-offs anymore...
Yeah, it's a good thing they rounded off those corners. :)
Though I still like the rough shape of the pedals of the original manufacturer more.
I think I might try them out once they hit the local store here.
To think of it, the "scandal" and the lawsuit was an excellent marketing campaign for the new pedal. Now everyone are buying them to just "try 'em out" and see if it sounds anywhere near like the opponent's thing. I can't deny, there is a possibility it might even match up.
----------
Jimbo
Still there is an upside
I remember being 14 and have to scrape very very hard to buy a c505 chorus and even more expensive then a ad80 echo.
My youngest plays guitar and even he at 11 can afford to buy pedals like this that are expensive (think mudulation echo pitch shifting etc) in other versions. Gives him a broad base to experiment with his own stuff (besides what I build for him) . He doesn't gig that much ;) so this is a good deal for him. He will be older when he learnes to appreciate ruggedness etc and will see why some stuff is more expensive.
Same goes for guitars. A lot of cheap guitars are really good value for money and they allow kids to experiment more and have more fun in music.
(To bad the older one plays drums.;) )
Yeah, that DMCA is a joke, read the thing, it's an open ended legal tool that shouldn't have been signed into law in it's present form.
Anyone who programs in any higher level language copies code, period.
(with the possible exception of Assembly)
It's all copying, you have to in order to utilize the languages, oh sure you can make a class or object of your own and customize it with all sorts of things ...but... you will copy others code to compile for a platform.
In fact you can't use a runtime library or anyones DLL without copying code, they have specfic entry points and access functions, the minute you invoke a function to access a DLL you have copied code. In fact with MFC and C# you can make entire applications with other peoples code.
That DMCA is a JOKE pulled on the public in disguise to allow businesses to strong-arm anyone that threatens them...period.
I just can't wait until the pendulum of life swings back the other way and things like the DMCA and those software license agreements are thrown out as too vague, lop-sided and withour remedy for the consumer.
They (industry) will fight it with all their power and money because when the consumer protection movement gets rolling in the software world and the companies are found liable for crappy application code... well things will change only then.
FYI: Windows 2000 shipped with 1800 known bugs (bugs logged in the Product Studio database) which were put off as "won't fix" because it would interfere with the ship schedule. Does the DMCA allow for any remedy for the millions of consumers who purchased an operating system, on good faith (expecting it to be reasonably free of defects) which was shipped with known defects? then these consumers got dribbled-out fixes through Windows Update and service packs.
Detroit has to recall every single copy of their product when something is found defective, and the media and courts put the absolute presure on finding out if their defect was "known".
The law works in the consumers favor when known defects are intentionaly invoked upon the public in any other area of consumer products ...except software and Hollywood. These folks are getting things implemented in Law that shouldn't be allowed, and wouldn't with a sane'er generation of lawmakers.
In 20 years when the lawmakers are more the current generation of computer savvy folks they won't be fooled like the current group, and hopefully they will "fix" things like the DMCA!.
...end of rant.
I could never afford pedals when I was a youngster, and still don't have much to spend on them 10 years later!
What I don't understand is, if they're SMD, then there must be a lot of room left over in the enlosure. That's why I can't wait to see a gut shot!
first impressions... (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1024748) from a customer
Sounds promising. :o
I know it will not be cool, but I'm planning to buy a lot of them... (the reverb one is the most interesting to me).
Let's face it, we're here for the TONE, out of a bunch of them, for that price, I'm sure there must be something good.
has anyone tried or heard anything about the hellbabe wah? it sounds like an absolute DREAM for a diyer, optical control, frequency, boost, range knobs, switchless... if you could crack it open and just keep choice parts of the circuit (the switchless operation for example) and scrap the wah part and wire a vox wah in there instead, it sounds like itd be a pretty mean machine.
that review is just about exactly what I expected.
Quote from: Storing!Still there is an upside
I remember being 14 and have to scrape very very hard to buy a c505 chorus and even more expensive then a ad80 echo.
My youngest plays guitar and even he at 11 can afford to buy pedals like this that are expensive (think mudulation echo pitch shifting etc) in other versions. Gives him a broad base to experiment with his own stuff (besides what I build for him) . He doesn't gig that much ;) so this is a good deal for him. He will be older when he learnes to appreciate ruggedness etc and will see why some stuff is more expensive.
Same goes for guitars. A lot of cheap guitars are really good value for money and they allow kids to experiment more and have more fun in music.
(To bad the older one plays drums.;) )
My point of view is this: You don't have to have everything! The cheaper everything get and the higher the salaries go, the more stuff people can afford. Can you spell s-p-o-i-l-e-d? :P No offence but I think one should practice and advance in music BEFORE getting The Tone and every piece of gear imaginable. If there's no place to advance in gear anymore, the developement in playing will also suffer. Just my angle of view... Maybe that's because I'm dirt poor and build my own gear to achieve better sound at clubs. It requires work. Not rich daddy. :)
On the other hand, they're great toys for kids. I'll buy one for my first child to chew on. :)
----------
Jimbo
... and there was me thinking the primary function of music is fun & entertainment ...
Quote from: spudulike... and there was me thinking the primary function of music is fun & entertainment ...
Go back watching MTV if you think like that. :P
I think making music is more about expressing yourself and it has more of a spiritual meaning than anyhting. Of course no one forbids you to have fun and earn money in the process.
Of course listening to music would have to be about recieving the expression of the musician and understanding it (and having fun in the process). But that's been transformed into just having fun.
----------
Jimbo
Danelectro puts out a wide variety of inexpensive budget-packaged pedals that increasing appear to often be clones of pedals that have existed for a while, or else used "canned" designs. Whether making guitars for Sears using garbage wood and masonite, or Foxx Tone Machine Clones in cheap plastic boxes, what Danelectro did and continues to do is provide non-professionals with the sounds they want at prices they can afford. What I find a little odd is that when Dano makes a Phase 90 clone, people go "Great! Now I can afford one!", or when they make a Tone Machine clone, people say "Terrific! Now I don't have to build one!". Note that both of these pedals/designs are still in production somewhere else (well, the FTM is being reissued these days). When Behringer makes an inexpensive non-pro clone of someone else's pedal, the reaction seems to be "Those lazy bastards! Couldn't even bother to do their own R&D!".
A bit of a double standard in some ways, although there is one big difference between Behringer and Danelectro, which can be seen in the picture of Ton/Puretube holding up a "Vintage Phaser" next to a Small Stone. While Danelectro was content to let the pedals be judged on their own sonic merits, and it took a bunch of us poking around inside pedals to even realize that the French Toast was an FTM, Behringer has gone to great lengths to as much as say "Eh? Eh? See the similarity? Pretty damn good copy, eh?". It's like the difference between someone who studies Rolex watches and makes a watch that uses their idea, vs the street vendor who sells "Rofex" watches loudly proclaiming that they look the same for a fraction of the price.
All of that unsavouriness aside, I don't see a huge problem with these pedals aslong as we think of them the way we think of Dano pedals - sounds good for the money, but I wouldn't want to take it out on the road.
Quote from: Mark HammerBehringer has gone to great lengths to as much as say "Eh? Eh? See the similarity? Pretty damn good copy, eh?". It's like the difference between someone who studies Rolex watches and makes a watch that uses their idea, vs the street vendor who sells "Rofex" watches loudly proclaiming that they look the same for a fraction of the price.
Yeah, I think that's exactly what the problem is -- it's the fact that it appears that Behringer's products flirt with being counterfeits rather than clones. Capitalizing on Boss's reputation by copying the details of the appearance to sell pedals seems to be the sticking point.
:roll:
Quote from: Mark Hammerto even realize that the French Toast was an FTM
Doh. I didn't know it. ...I've got to try it.
BTW, do you know any other corrispondence beetween famous pedal and Danos? I have, for example, a Chiken Salad, or something with a name like that, that sounds pretty similiar to a rotovibe.
Reading the LSA, license software agreement...
It seems Yamaha has sold me sounds they hold the rights to...if that's possible.
It looked like they are trying to hold the rights to anything published that uses those tones, like a music CD or whatever....
= [?] My instrument makes 'their' sounds...if I publish a recording using 'their' sounds [they sold me] they can claim rights to any money's made...
Anyway it was a cursory, and unsavory read through...maybe I missed the intent completely ???
Quote from: bradI could never afford pedals when I was a youngster, and still don't have much to spend on them 10 years later!
What I don't understand is, if they're SMD, then there must be a lot of room left over in the enlosure. That's why I can't wait to see a gut shot!
You'll propably find a PCB sized big enough to fill up the whole box and be used for all the pedals in the line. Like Ibanes's 7-series. That way they don't have to design and produce separate PCB's for each effect.
-----------
Jimbo
How to dismantle an OD 100:
(http://putphoto.com/d/160080-1/00685.jpg)
or click: http://putphoto.com/main.php?g2_view=slideshow:Slideshow&g2_itemId=160065
looks good enough to me. looks at least as sturdy as danos.
That looks crap.....
It looks like these cheap kids toys you can buy in newsagents here for 99p....
it should say on the pack "not suitable for children younger than 36 months"
Quote from: spudulike:roll:
spudu: you may not have noticed the pics of the "former" look of those pedals, when they first were publicly shown/advertised (tnx, Lurco!):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/Lurco/behringer15qs.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/Lurco/3behringerCompactup.jpg)
to me it looks like they learned their "don`t copy the
look" -lesson,
and even done their homework... ALPS trimmers, double-sided epoxy-PCB...
Bore: do I see a TL064 and 7 diodes in the sig-path on the back-side?
btw: did you find those phaser schemos yet? (I`d love to peep in there, too)...
Quote from: nelsonThat looks crap.....
Why?
The mainboard in the computer you're sitting behind right now is the same level or construction. If built up to the apparent standards you expect you woudn't have bought that computer because it's so expensive :wink:
Quote from: Dirk_Hendrik
The mainboard in the computer you're sitting behind right now is the same level or construction.
Exactly. The digital PC is supposed to have surface mount components etc. But we're talking about analog guitar pedals here.
I'm a DIY-er, I'll alway's stay loving hand wired pedals. I've had some bad experience with this "modern construction" they do on the new pedals.
For example, why can't they act normal and raise the price a few bucks and add a damn real stompswitch. I hate those tiny bastards in stompboxes. :P
----------
Jimbo
Usual expected moans...........go on, save yourself some money, buy 2 or three!
Stephen
I want 4!
Fp
Quote from: Dirk_HendrikQuote from: nelsonThat looks crap.....
Why?
The mainboard in the computer you're sitting behind right now is the same level or construction. If built up to the apparent standards you expect you woudn't have bought that computer because it's so expensive :wink:
hey, speak for yourself. My computer is true Point to Point handwired. I don't even use a turret board. It's a brand new ENIAC.
:D
I agree with Stephen........buy two or three and have fun.I got the GDI21 and I'm not disappointed,granted,my DIY GT2 sounds better but the GDI has a DI output and I did not have to work hard to make it.I think it was worth CAN$50.I'm going to buy a few more including the EQ.
Looking at the trade show picture of all the pedals mounted to a board, my first reaction was "Aw jeez, couldn't they have at least rounded the foot treadle a bit so it didn't look exactly like the Boss pedals?". Well the little slide show linked to by Bore-inger seems to indicate that final production models may have done just that. You will note that the plastic chassis IS, in fact rounded towards the front, and generally not as angular as the Boss chassis. I realize this is not as idiosyncratic a chassis as some of the Danelectro or Snarling Dogs or Roger Mayer boxes, but its a step in the right direction. Construction looks generally sound to me.
I may try one or two of the Dano's. Anybody that names a pedal after food is worth a look IMO. Next think you know, we'll be able to have a pedal board that contains the ingredients for a pizza. :D
the plastic enclosures and crappy looking jacks put me off. Fair enough the board looks ok, but I bet they cheaped out on the switching too.
Much like the ibanez tonelok series I expect these switches to crap out in record time.
I am making no comment about sound quality.
they do look like kiddies toys.
I will have you know I have a nothing but silver solder, 100% stripboarded PC made out of nothing but air dielectric capacitors and carbon comp resistors with germanium NOS semiconductors. The OS was written by monkeys at solid silver typewriters with mercury for blood living on a diet of japanese fish and methamphetamine. I dont use RAM I use brain cells kindly "donated" by nobel prize winners.
(Sigh...) Time for me to haul out the Arion chorus story again...
From this thread:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=34348&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
"Cheap plastic box with a battery door that won't stay on, pcb mounted plastic pots, friction mounted knobs falling off, cheap switch... Sooner or later you find out you got what you paid for. "
That's the story with this junk... If you're a working/semi-working musician I wouldn't bother with it unless you were going to re-box it into a suitable enclosure with suitable jacks, pots, and switch. Note that the jacks, pots, and switch are the most expensive parts of a pedal. It's probably simpler (and maybe cheaper) to just build it from scratch and do it right, since we know what most of these are clones of anyway.
Doug
Quote from: nelsonThe OS was written by monkeys at solid silver typewriters with mercury for blood living on a diet of japanese fish and methamphetamine.
So you mean windows XP ?
Andrew
Naturally they're cheaped out. The thing I wondered when thes fella's were announced is how they're going to influence the low end market and that will probably knock a few player in that field out. Brands like Danelectro come to mind. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a fan of this development. However, getting up full production with these pricetags is something that gets my respect.
Plastic casing... Aria/Arion was commented over that for years and thanks to Mike Landau we gradually see the pricetags for those chorusses rise.... All of a sudden the sonic qualities are judged and the plastic case is taken for granted.
And.
A decent footswitch.. come on! Figure that answer out yourself!
Quote from: The Tone GodQuote from: nelsonThe OS was written by monkeys at solid silver typewriters with mercury for blood living on a diet of japanese fish and methamphetamine.
So you mean windows XP ?
Andrew
No. OS/2.
Quote from: Dirk_HendrikNaturally they're cheaped out. The thing I wondered when thes fella's were announced is how they're going to influence the low end market and that will probably knock a few player in that field out. Brands like Danelectro come to mind. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a fan of this development. However, getting up full production with these pricetags is something that gets my respect.
Plastic casing... Aria/Arion was commented over that for years and thanks to Mike Landau we gradually see the pricetags for those chorusses rise.... All of a sudden the sonic qualities are judged and the plastic case is taken for granted.
And.
A decent footswitch.. come on! Figure that answer out yourself!
I have not made any comments on the sound qualities yet.
However if they are just clones which is very likely then surely we can build these with better build quality and tailored to our set up for round about the same price.
6 dollar enclosure 6 dollar switch 50 cent pots $1.50 jacks, components $5.
A tube screamer.
I for one think danelectro is a good effects company and has released some decent sounding Fx I wouldnt like to see them muscled out of their market position by these sheizters. Perhaps the overheads of an R & D dept are too much for the budget end of the market.
homogenized consumer culture is inevitable it seems. Even in the world of arts that seems to prize originality.
:cry:
Quote from: bradI don't really mind about the whole "Behringer Steals Ideas" thing, because it's only natural for a market to seek the most efficient means of production and copy proven ideas.
Berhinger may be cheap, but they're also plastic.
Boss may cost a bit more, but they're also reliable.
Freedom of choice is a wonderful thing.
Spoken like an economist! High-five! 8)
Quote from: putrefusionQuote from: bradI don't really mind about the whole "Behringer Steals Ideas" thing, because it's only natural for a market to seek the most efficient means of production and copy proven ideas.
Berhinger may be cheap, but they're also plastic.
Boss may cost a bit more, but they're also reliable.
Freedom of choice is a wonderful thing.
Spoken like an economist! High-five! 8)
I am more of an idealist, accepting the realities of the darwinian nightmare that is economics is another thing.
Functionalism is a lie.
:roll:
Quote from: Bore-ingerHow to dismantle an OD 100:
(http://putphoto.com/d/160080-1/00685.jpg)
or click: http://putphoto.com/main.php?g2_view=slideshow:Slideshow&g2_itemId=160065
Thanks for taking the time to take those photos Mr. Bore-inger :lol:
Quote from: JimRaydenQuote from: Dirk_Hendrik
The mainboard in the computer you're sitting behind right now is the same level or construction.
Exactly. The digital PC is supposed to have surface mount components etc. But we're talking about analog guitar pedals here.
Don't worry, you can always put in some carbon comp SMD resistors :shock: :wink: One disadvantage I can see with the SMD components is that they appear to be close to flush against the base-plate of the pedal. There may not be enough clearance to solder normal parts on there, but it will make for some fun problem solving! There looks like there's alot of room in the top of the enclosure for diode clipping switches, and you could probably mount a dip opamp on a bit of stripboard and connect it to the SMD side with a ribbon cable.
There is art in everything, including using my $9 soldering iron to turn a $20 mass produced pedal into something unique! :o
Thats a beautiful sentiment Brad.
Thanks for that.
:)
Quote from: DavidNo. OS/2.
I belive OS/2 used these monkeys.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v515/TheToneGod/dynamite_monkey.jpg)
Andrew
behringer,
dano,
axl,
johnson,
out of work college sophomores who actually think "cal
vanism" is a threat to world security...
who cares.
...bring on the cheap gear. At the very minimum it will allow you to reverse a clone of a clone of a clone cheaply - provided your scrotum doesn't shrivel over smd.
The better story here is between Jim and Spud.
I'm with Spud... (sorry Jim)
Quoteand there was me thinking the primary function of music is fun & entertainment
Argue pedals and politics all you want... but Spud, for me, has the last word.
This is fun...
This is entertainment...
or vice versa (whatever)...
throw in Spud's Big Green Bus and, well... it's over. There's nothing left to argue about.
Life is good.
Bring it on Behringer...
Pic size editedEDIT 2 - Pics removed because of complaints :)
It's laughable how some of you young liberals can be so censoring and puritanical. Of course it's ok for you to be since you're so obviously correct in your morality. May the gods of your own self-justifying design strengthen you on your tireless crusade for the good. :roll:
Quote from: nelson
However if they are just clones which is very likely then surely we can build these with better build quality and tailored to our set up for round about the same price.
6 dollar enclosure 6 dollar switch 50 cent pots $1.50 jacks, components $5.
A tube screamer.
Indeed. This is correct for a DIY product. The factors which you forget are:
- Labour
- Production costs (from machinery to the rent of building)
- Packaging
- Transport cost
- The music store's profit
etc etc
This suggests that the production costs of a boringer pedal must be around 3 to 4 dollars. From that perspective (and only that one) Boringer has, in my opinion, done a very fine job.
Having said that....
- Chances are that Behringer uses it's other products to subsedize this product line and sells below the actual costs to gain market share.
- Salaries to the Chinese employees beiing at an absolute minimum without any stuff like building a pension, health security, being laid off when becoming an Union memer or even considering to do so...etc etc
And all that kind of stuff because the consumers of these products want the cheapest of the cheapest.
Quote from: CS Jonesbehringer,
dano,
axl,
johnson,
out of work college sophomores who actually think "calvanism" is a threat to world security...
who cares.
...bring on the cheap gear. At the very minimum it will allow you to reverse a clone of a clone of a clone cheaply - provided your scrotum doesn't shrivel over smd.
The better story here is between Jim and Spud.
I'm with Spud... (sorry Jim)
Quoteand there was me thinking the primary function of music is fun & entertainment
Argue pedals and politics all you want... but Spud, for me, has the last word.
This is fun...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/ClayJones/P9020009.jpg)
This is entertainment...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/ClayJones/jeans.jpg)
or vice versa (whatever)...
throw in Spud's Big Green Bus and, well... it's over. There's nothing left to argue about.
Life is good.
Bring it on Behringer...
Too bad so many horny lil' brats think that way. :P
Ok ok don't ban me.
EDIT: Actually I agree on those pics. :P
----------
Jimbo
Hi! Wow, long thread.
First, let's not get too sexist here. Nudity is good, sexism is bad IMO.
Second, it is surprising that everyone is focussing on these first issue pedals. Chinese manufacturers have a repuatation for rapidly improving their products. There's a story that an Australian businessman went to china with an expensive golf driver (worth say $300 wholesale, $500 retail). They say it took the chinese experts just 2 days to bring him a prototype, which they could sell to him for $50. Fantastic! But he tried it out, and the head split in two. Nobody in china plays golf (and very few people play guitars by the way), so they didn't understand the tremendous force on the head, and that it had to be cast in one part, not two. Two days later he got the new, improved version.
Maybe it's just a story. In any case, I don't think that these will be the last of the Behringer pedals.
Quote- Salaries to the Chinese employees beiing at an absolute minimum without any stuff like building a pension, health security, being laid off when becoming an Union memer or even considering to do so...etc etc
Huh? Getting sacked for wanting to join a union is what happens in the USA. China is a communist, part-capitalist state where most factory and government workers get really good pensions, health cover, and ...get this... have GUARANTEED employent until retirement (generally around age 50!). The salaries are low (think 10% of the USA or less), but the people are well looked after (better than poor people in the USA).
cheers
[Beautiful babe picture omitted for brevity...]
Lord, Clay... Are those some of your groupies? Can I try out for your band? Can I? Huh? Can I?....
(BTW, I agree this is all much ado about nothing. Politics Schmolitics... My only point is crap is crap. Have fun- buy all you want, but don't expect it to last through constant gigging. I've been tempted by that metal thing Tom posted about a few months ago, as well as the TS clone- hey maybe I'll finally see what the big deal about a TS is :lol: )
Doug
Quoteout of work college sophomores who actually think "calvanism" is a threat to world security
Test - who according to Dick Gaughan was cured of Calvinism?????
Stephen
Hey Doug, as a "shoegazer" player every now and then you look up, see something and just have to grab the camera. I thought it was funny actually.
Stephen. I'm going to guess he was referring to England in general.
Arguing economics/politics/religion/social theory etc. etc. with strangers over the internet? No mas.
he was referring to John Muir:
http://www.nps.gov/jomu/qufacts.htm
Well.....there you go!!
Stephen
Quote from: brettChina is a communist, part-capitalist state where most factory and government workers get really good pensions, health cover, and ...get this... have GUARANTEED employent until retirement (generally around age 50!). The salaries are low (think 10% of the USA or less), but the people are well looked after (better than poor people in the US)
which little fairy told you that ? the only thing GUARANTEED in china is that you get into trouble when you try to access the wrong websites (sites about democracy, that is), and the GUARANTEED employment is the one in labour camps. until you die, that is.
Uh...I'm pretty sure Brett just returned home from a trip to China recently.
March and April through northern and western China.
Yes, China has labour camps (and the death penalty). Fundamentally wrong in 2005. But just like the USA.
Back on topic: I bought a small Behringer mixer for *home* use and it's great value for money (8 channels for US$50, on sale I think). A DIY mixer with the same functionality would have cost two to three times as much for the parts. It's not rugged, but neither is the treatment it'll get.
cheers
If you play football with your effects pedals the cases won't last long, but in any case, if I'm doing a gig I'm as careful with my pedals as I am with my guitar and amp, so what's the problem??
Quote from: StephenGilesIf you play football with your effects pedals the cases won't last long, but in any case, if I'm doing a gig I'm as careful with my pedals as I am with my guitar and amp, so what's the problem??
Ahh, but the problem is, will everyone else on stage be as careful? I've had a number of pedals crunched under a bandmate's foot (as well as guitars gouged, speaker grilles torn, etc). A *stompbox* that can't withstand vigorous stomping is not *stageworthy*, IME.
Kerry M
My stage is my loungeroom. :lol:
Quote from: bwanasonic[
Ahh, but the problem is, will everyone else on stage be as careful? I've had a number of pedals crunched under a bandmate's foot (as well as guitars gouged, speaker grilles torn, etc). A *stompbox* that can't withstand vigorous stomping is not *stageworthy*, IME.
Kerry M
Then I suggest they eat and drink a little less so that they are not so heavy on their equipment
Stephen
I think it's quite obvious that this equipment isn't designed for gigging musicians. It's designed with the bedroom guitarist in mind- 14 years old, wants to look cool in front of his mates with a load of different effects.
Whilst these pedals are in the $30 range, It wouldn't suprised me if the cost of manufacture is below $7. Behringer as a company are hell to deal with as a supplier (I have a little experience, and heard lots from colleagues). They want everything as cheaply as possible, and if you can't match what price they want, they threaten to take the business elsewhere. - except they do it to all the manufacturers, which drives the market price lower and lower.
I wouldn't be suprised if in the volume that they produce in, that each of the pots and switches were $0.05 -> $0.10c each - surface mount devices are dirt cheap as well.
Anyway... I could go on and on (and I often do)...
Fact is, Behringer probably makes $5 on every unit built, and then allows the shop owner to make a further $10. Being this cheap, they will sell a lot - just because they are in the price range where people say "I'll try that, just to see how it sounds in my setup".
I don't think they'll challenge the likes of DanElectro - simply because people know they can trust a DanElectro on stage :D
They're designed to make it out of the showroom.
If they make it that far, chances are the buyer will lose the sales slip in a week.
Even if they don't 'extent' past the warranty period, another one can be stamped out to replace it cheeply enough.
My B' mixer was nice, but the transformer 'hammock' thing got the plastic AC in jack. I don't know why the short side of the AC line goes from board to heavy transformer, the the twice as long side of the AC line goes from transformer to wall plug...'planned obscelescence?
All perfectly reasonable...for the cost.
I'd prefer though Having a more substantial connection method as opposed to trying to get by with a comparitively 'very weak chain link'.
For PCB mounted jacks, I'm absolutely certain there are better choices than the 'leverage' inducing 1/4'' phone jack / plug.
Another gotcha from 'accostumed to this method' [use of 1/4'' jacks] mandates [changing jack types would put the effects at a serious sales disadvantage], so 'design compromise' and weak points were chosen...works fine for a little while.
First let me say that I don't own any Behringer products. Second I really don't understand why most of the people here are so much pissed at Behringer and sound like Boss dealers and/or distributors. If you like your Boss pedals stick to them but since nobody /or only a few/ still owns any of these new pedals how can you comment on how crappy, bad sounding and short lived they are?
Don't forget also that some people can't afford to pay the absurd amounts of money for a Boss pedal especially if you can get a rackmount multieffects processor for the price of a single Boss pedal.
So let's test these pedals first and then give opinions.
As far as China is concerned the things are not so "surface mount" so let's not get politics involved here.
Hm, I have noticed that I'm feeling cooler and cooler about these pedals. I was pissed at the first design, afterwards I was just pissed at them. Now I just don't care, since I propably won't have anything to do with them in the next few decades. Maybe when one jumps into my way, I'll check it out. Propably not. This thread is getting long anyway. The next one who posts, better have some actual experience with these pedals.
Thank you, good night.
----------
Jimbo
Quote from: MetalGuyFirst let me say that I don't own any Behringer products. Second I really don't understand why most of the people here are so much pissed at Behringer and sound like Boss dealers and/or distributors. If you like your Boss pedals stick to them but since nobody /or only a few/ still owns any of these new pedals how can you comment on how crappy, bad sounding and short lived they are?
Don't forget also that some people can't afford to pay the absurd amounts of money for a Boss pedal especially if you can get a rackmount multieffects processor for the price of a single Boss pedal.
So let's test these pedals first and then give opinions.
As far as China is concerned the things are not so "surface mount" so let's not get politics involved here.
Find a rackmount effects processor that costs $39.99, or $69.99 or $89.99. That's the street price for many Boss effects brand new. They aren't absurd prices at all. The are just right IMO. Sure, some of the delays and reverbs will run around $119 or $129 but I know what I'm getting and know that I can stomp the crap out of it for years and it will work.
I haven't tried the pedals but I wouldn't count them out for using just at home or in a pinch. I just wouldn't rely on them for the main pedalboard.
Quote from: stankyfishQuote from: JimRaydenhttp://images.misupply.com/products/original/Boss/21767.jpg
http://www.behringer.com/BO100/BO100_medium.jpg
I mean... COME ON!!!! This is so damn rediculous!!!!
Last I heard they were being sued (http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=2054) over that.
There are way stronger cases than a simple look-a-like issue. I mean imagine if a company sued another company for using a hammond 1590B.
I could see if Boss used some sort of "style" in there paint job but since they use simple one background color and one font color then that portion is thrown out. That leaves the enclosure. Definite moral issue but shouldn't stand legally.
Does anybody know what the difference in component/part quality is? If it's even close to being the same than no wonder. Boss' profit margin is being exploited.
EDIT: Oops, didn't realize this was a 7 pager. Comments were made based on the 1st page.
Didn't you guys notice that JimRayden wrote:
QuoteThe next one who posts, better have some actual experience with these pedals.
Why are you guys posting anything if you don't have any actual experience with the pedals??
Oh, wait, that's right, it's an open forum and anybody can say whatever they want!
Carry on!
Fp
playing 'devils advocate'...
Actually I haven't heard one way or the other whether it's jacks in PCB or not..I just assumed it must be.
RG once wrote about what is liked pedal features..."Dependability...anything else".
It's like skinny tires on a bike that's gonna see lots of abuse not seen on a smooth track it was designed for...you get a few flat tires and bent rims and start thinking that beefier spinners for the thing is what is needed for the application.
BTW I bought that beh' board, and it still works, but I have to be careful about where the ACin jack is broken...I took one look and decided repairing it would be a 'hard messy hack'. I suppose I could look for another 'delicate' replacement jack...anyone know about refixing 'disposable jacks'?
Nevermind, I've read about that, and it didn't look very pretty.
"Model VD1" (anybody said that sounds like a threat?)
ordered late august in germany - arrived today
chassis-bottom: 1.3mm steel;
chassis-top: 1.5mm aluminum;
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/latronax/vd979.jpg)
fixed together by 8 screws;
removable plastic battery-door:
in-/out jacks (closed type) screwed to chassis;
both carry one of the 3 PCBs,
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/latronax/vd988.jpg)
this one also carries a DC-jack (not screwed),
a "polarity"-diode and a (conventional) load-electrolytic,
the battery-clip wires,
and a 4-pole connector,
which "busses" to the "main audio board"
(2.2cm by 8.3cm),
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/latronax/vd991.jpg)
which is attached to the chassis-top by 2 brassy 2cm standoffs
with 2 screws at the top, and 2 at the PCB.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/latronax/vd981.jpg)
A 2nd connector (5-pole) goes to the 3rd PCB,
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/latronax/vd996.jpg)
which carries a tiny plastic PCB-mount DPDT pushbutton,
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/latronax/vd984.jpg)
which is actuated by a chassis-screwed metal foot-activator,
these latter devices fixed together by an adventurous looking
plastic cage with spring.
The main audio PCB carries 3 pots (alps 9mm D-shaft)
whose slide-off knobs guide the shafts in the chassis-holes,
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/latronax/vd986.jpg)
an LED, named standoffs
and connectors on the component-side,
and on the solder-side:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/latronax/vd993.jpg)
24 resistors,
13 caps,
4x 1N4148,
4x BC846, all SMD...
with R1 obviously hand-soldered in.....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/latronax/vd994.jpg)
As far as China is concerned the things are not so "surface mount" so let's not get politics involved here.
Politics involves 'Itself' in everything, why should we recognize being told to ignore that...?
ok...Because were trying to focus here on stompboxes...ok
Everything has to do with everything IMO...
Quote from: StephenGiles on September 04, 2005, 10:17:12 AM
Then I suggest they eat and drink a little less so that they are not so heavy on their equipment
Stephen
I just take a stool(make up your own joke).
:icon_eek:
RDV
pic-porn added - just scroll back... :icon_eek:
My god man, how does the Big Muff copy SOUND??????? ;-)
Also, circuit wise, is it a big muff? Thanks.
dunno - just bought it for educational purposes:
to see if it was neccessary to "design" such:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/latronax/bbmclone.jpg)
a huge enclosure around "just another fuzzbox"...
(only to give it a famous look, and to profit from the "muff identity").
lol even though it looks like sucky stuff you have to admit it's pretty cool that they can do this for that cheap
most of you guys are pretty inventive,... y not just get stronger cases, better switches and pots, then just add them to the pedal
and you've got a sturdy cheap pedal.
i wanna buy a couple of these