DIYstompboxes.com

What's in the "no clone zone"?

Looking at previous posts I would have thought it included Tech 21 gear like the SansAmp and XXL pedals.  They're in current production, they're only 10-15 years old, and they're not clones of anything else.  Also, Tech 21 is a small maker that's made some innovative pedals.

The tech 21 stuff has been in continuos production for about 25 years, but they're not selling to a mainstream market. The type of people that will buy a sansamp would never build one, they're totally different demographics. Also, nobody in their right mind would WANT to build a sansamp! Have you seen the schematic for that?!
As for no-clone, basically anything is game unless theres a good reason not to clone it. For example, people like Paul Perry and Z.Vex contribute to this community, and in return the community respects their intellectual property.
Basically though, you need to make peace with your own conscience as to wether you should clone someone elses design.
I tend to clone stuff that's either too expensive or too rare for me to ever buy. In that case, nobody's losing anything.

Don't know about Paul but in the case of Z Vex he specifically asked the forum not to post his schematics. So out of respect, people don't.

I don't think it's much more complicated than that, really.

Doug

It's more like the "please don't post" zone. No one can stop the spread of schematics and the reverse-engineering of pedals. It's going to happen and people will build their own clones no matter what.

posting/distributing unwanted clones will lead to the case,
where pedals will be either better gooped/disguised in the future,
new ones will only be designed in "advanced" software-based digital technique ("Emulations"-eeeek),
or designers will definitely jump off the scene,
stop make innovative designs,
(and maybe start something fruitful like garbage-collecting,
since at least no-one will steel the garbage from them...)

I have to confess a certain amount of discomfort with the recent XXL postings.  I certainly have no problems with folks reverse-engineering a current item and saying "Here is the basic principle that makes pedal X different or interesting.  Is there a way such a principle can be implemented in any existing or on the horizon designs?  Not necessarily in the identical manner but in the same spirit?"  Jack Orman's AMZ article on "warp" controls is a perfect example of that. It's not about any particular pedal, but rather presents a generic principle that can be applied to a wide variety of existing or future designs in creative ways.

Easy knockoffs leave me anxious, though, I'm afraid.

Define "clone"

To me a clone is an exact copy, a replica, of whatever is being cloned.

RG Keen has contributed with many of the terms we use everyday (like RTS PCBs, for example), and he also contributed with the "work-alike" term.

I highly doubt that *any* of us can clone a pedal. We can build work-alikes, that's for sure, and most of the pedals we build are better quality than those we can buy. And of course, the emotional bond with your hand built pedals is quite difficult to get with a store bought pedal.

Fp

ps: on a more ironic note, the Rebote2 delay circuit (not pcb layout) was copied by BYOC and they sell it in their Delay kit... what about that? We ALL should know that circuits are not subject to copyright (but that the layouts and artwork is), that's the whole point of epoxy in comercial units, to help prevent discovering the circuit, because once it's done, anybody can use that circuit, (not the artwork or layout).
EDIT: The rebote2 delay circuit was designed by yours truly and it has a couple of funny things going (the 2.5 is much better), just so that I could notice if somebody was 'using' it.

>I have to confess a certain amount of discomfort with the recent XXL postings

If you notice the XXL thread turned into a useful "improvement" thread where suggestions were made on how to improve the circuit and how to enhance it.

I really doubt much if many people will build one as the schematic is pretty involved and why would they want to when the Insanity sounds much better?  ;D

Most working musicians simply do not have the time to build their own "clones". Even when they do, they tend to mod the heck out of it.

I guess that in this respect, my interests win.

I agree with Mark Hammer-  I get the most enjoyment and satisfaction out of studying the "basic building blocks" or general techniques that could apply universally to all circuits.  Besides, there are few circuits that have any truly innovative approaches anyhow.  They're all just variations of the same set of themes.  There's only a few ways you can clip the signal, there's only a few ways to alter freq. response and so on.

It's all been done already.

However, I still get the most enjoyment out of creating my own circuits out of the "building blocks".  I've probably reinvented a lot of wheels this way, and it's not my intent to recreate something that already exists, but I'm sure it's happened.  I doubt I'll stumble across something new and exciting (and a lot of my circuits are probably total crap compared to everything else)  but I'm still having a great deal of fun.

My offtopic 2 cents.

Aron,

The improvement scenario happens for several reasons, one is that there is a LOT of room for improvement in all these circuits, the other is customizing by applying mods.

Fp

QuoteI still get the most enjoyment out of creating my own circuits out of the "building blocks".

Time for.....

DISTORTION MAKER!!!!!

http://www.diystompboxes.com/distmaker/DistMaker.html

Once somebody is able to identify the circuit blocks that make up a pedal, they have reached an important step in the understanding of pedals and also can now start designing!

Quote from: aron on December 08, 2005, 02:26:25 PM

QuoteI still get the most enjoyment out of creating my own circuits out of the "building blocks".

Time for.....

DISTORTION MAKER!!!!!

http://www.diystompboxes.com/distmaker/DistMaker.html

I saw an episode of Iron Chef or compatible.... they started out by hitting a gong, and then these two Asian chefs come cartwheeling out from the sides of the stage whipping around all this cutlery in true Martial Arts style.  It was like watching a cheezy 1980s Ninja movie crossed with some Jackie Chan crossed with Who Wants To Beat A Millionaire.  It culminated with them theatrically arriving at this center island bar and very rapidly chopping up a bunch of vegetables, meat, rice and things and slapping together a plate of food, then thrusting it at the camera.

That's what that made me think of.

Quote from: aron on December 08, 2005, 02:19:52 PM
>I have to confess a certain amount of discomfort with the recent XXL postings

If you notice the XXL thread turned into a useful "improvement" thread where suggestions were made on how to improve the circuit and how to enhance it.

Actually, I hadn't noticed.  In which case, I tip my toque to you.  You did the right thing. :icon_smile:

Also, the XXL schematic has been around for a couple of years, IIRC Jeremy sent it to me a couple of months after he had posted the GT2 schematic.

RE : XXL

I intended to make a layout available from the superb schematic by J Luja, which ..... was "posted
here" some time ago .
I hope that I have not caused any "offense" and perhaps in future, I'll stick to my own designs, as
these things take up my valuable time !!.
As far as I see it, there's no difference is "reverse engineering" a "Tech 21" or any other product !


Regards,

Marty.

Marty, you did right. I don't think Mark or anybody is the least bit upset about it.

Fp

Quote...has contributed with many of the terms we use everyday (like RTS PCBs, for example),

Kudos for PCB! (even "Pr*tel" uses that abbrev. now)
"unwanted clones" is the only thing I can contribute...

btw.: it happens to happen,
that a lot of  those "mods", that are being err, newly invented for commercial products,
have all been on the designer`s bench long before, but discarded with when a new product hits the market, due to economical (or other*) reasons...

Well, I didn't mean "PCB" by itself, but "RTS PCB".

Fp

probably just splitting hairs, but the original XXL was in production from 1995 to 2000, the reversed schematic was released in January, 2005. Tech21 just recently started production of a new modified version of the XXL this year.

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=29094.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=29094.0)

I seriously doubt tech21 is losing money due to the diy crowd, besides, they've got those dirt cheap behringer clones to worry about. I just wish someone would actually use the information and ideas to make something new.

now, if someone wants to clone my alarm clock, I've got a schematic of that too, including a nice mod to dim the display according to the ambient light level  :icon_smile:

Quote"unwanted clones" is the only thing I can contribute...

can you explain, please.

J.

I seriously doubt that ANY diy is making ANY company loose money. Specially because people who buy DONT build and people who build DON'T buy (90% of the time).

Fp

Quote from: Fp-www.Tonepad.com on December 08, 2005, 03:16:57 PM
J.

I seriously doubt that ANY diy is making ANY company loose money. Specially because people who buy DONT build and people who build DON'T buy (90% of the time).

Fp

I build and I buy.

I am more prone to buy pedals that I deem "worthy" though. I mean if its more cost effective for me to build it, given my time and resources, I will build it. If its an "original" idea, or not really cost effective to build, I will buy it.

For example, I spent a long time cloning the EHX Echoflanger, from a pcb image file posted by stephen giles. Once I finished the "Clone" documentation, I decided to forego building and verifying my efforts to buy a vintage polychorus(same pedal). I may get round to building one, one day.

Another example is I bought a flanger hoax, because I deem the pedal "worthy" of my hard earned cash. Purely because its an original idea and offers an effect it would take me many many years of tweaking to achieve. Perhaps has something to do with the fact that puretube designed it aswell.  :icon_razz:

DIYERS do buy pedals, when they CANT build them. Or when its not worth their while.

QuoteDIYERS do buy pedals, when they CANT build them. Or when its not worth their while.

That's why we should be able to build 100% of the pedals that exist.

I LOVE buying pedals. I mean, how many quackers (Filter pedals) do I need? I never use em! However I still bought the Mini Q tron.....

I LOVE the LOOK of pedals which is so ironic that I don't even paint my pedals. I need to start checking out my forum for how to make my pedals look nice.  :'(

Quote from: Fp-www.Tonepad.com on December 08, 2005, 04:33:14 PM

QuoteDIYERS do buy pedals, when they CANT build them. Or when its not worth their while.

That's why we should be able to build 100% of the pedals that exist.

http://www.behringer.com/VP1/index.cfm?lang=ENG (http://www.behringer.com/VP1/index.cfm?lang=ENG)

ooops - just noticed it became a price-shifter
and a time-domain toy  :icon_surprised:

( and mistook above quote for:

Quote"That's why we should be able to buy 100% of the pedals that exist"

)

QuoteTime for.....

DISTORTION MAKER!!!!!

http://www.diystompboxes.com/distmaker/DistMaker.html

LOL!  I wish I could make flash objects.

Actually, a pedal has some toy qualities, not that it should be a cheap toy. Have you seen the prices for some "toys" lately!

Fp

 here`s  (http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat6737572.pdf) a nice toy for people taking time to read, like Stephen, Mike, Seb., Sean, Scott, a.o.  :icon_wink:, but plz don`t burn your fingerz!

 ::)

Fp

Quote from: puretube on December 08, 2005, 02:59:38 PM
btw.: it happens to happen,
that a lot of  those "mods", that are being err, newly invented for commercial products,
have all been on the designer`s bench long before, but discarded with when a new product hits the market, due to economical (or other*) reasons...

sure happens to be re-cloned commercially, too, afterwards:

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=39784.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=39784.0)

Hmm, this thread is becoming a little "annoying"
Have a word with "Behringer" about the 200 + "Clones" they seem to keep making AND SELLING BTW
for LOTS of profit ...before having a "pop" at this little DIY community.

Without "clones"  "mods" etc etc it wouldn't exist, just check out how many folks ask :
"How can i mod my DS-1 to make it better" ( in a squeaky child like voice )  .... EVERY week  !

grrrrr ....

MM. :icon_eek:

Quotehere`s  a nice toy for people taking time to read, like Stephen, Mike, Seb., Sean, Scott, a.o.  icon_wink, but plz don`t burn your fingerz!

THIS has been released by Yamaha. Exactly that, in trumpet form.

Quote from: MartyMart on December 08, 2005, 07:08:18 PM
Hmm, this thread is becoming a little "annoying"
Have a word with "Behringer" about the 200 + "Clones" they seem to keep making AND SELLING BTW
for LOTS of profit ...before having a "pop" at this little DIY community.

Without "clones"  "mods" etc etc it wouldn't exist, just check out how many folks ask :
"How can i mod my DS-1 to make it better" ( in a squeaky child like voice )  .... EVERY week  !

grrrrr ....

MM. :icon_eek:

Hey, that was me back in March.

I knew NOTHING, I still know next to nothing, although I can tweak, (not meth).

I started one of those "DS-1mod threads" for my first  thread, and it devolved into a slagging match between torchy, cd and the indyguitarist guy.
Mr Snowberg was very nice as usual, and I could only appreciate his advise in hindsight.

But that question has allowed me to get to the level I am at now, competent enough to clone pedals, design circuit boards (take a look at my Clone theory) and tweak, modify and design a little bit.

To a newbie, this place is both welcoming and scary, what with the very specific "netiquette" and complex relationship between the interests of the average DIYer and the business entities who frequent the forum.

This thread highlights those and ofcourse is part of the ongoing "ethics" debate that we face about "clones".

I dont see it as a "pop" at this community, as this community is in a way, constantly having a "pop" at itself.

Which ofcourse is a great thing, accepting the status quo is not the culture of a good productive community.

Sorry nelson, I just see a "DS-1/SD-1" question repeated about twice a week and it's
getting a little tiresome  :icon_rolleyes:
If that's what got you going, then its a good thing :D
I just wish the "search" function was used ....... once  !
I buy and build stuff, so I've put my share of "Dosh" into the
hands of many pedal companies and "boutique" guys too , if I have
time and can do it, I'll "clone"
If the "clone thread" is bugging someone too much, then aron will remove
it anyway I guess .... !
peace,
MM

I don't have a problem cloning any pedal for personal use.  If you have the skills...more power to you!  It's like making your own homebrew.

Ethics only come into the picture when you're selling pedals imho, and that has nothing to do with me.

B*hr*nger has burnt his fingers!
(didn`t you grasp the sarcasm behind that post? they introduced an identical looking cheap clone of a "vintage" pedal a year ago... someone knocked on their fingers...they procrastinated the availability from quarter to quarter...announced price has almost doubled since).

At least they gave the "ghost" a new name  :icon_eek:

Concerning that trumpet: stumbled across it by accident yesterday, (just before the word "toy" was mentioned here), seeing that it has some interesting new techniques in the field of Pitch Detector, Fundamental Extractor, and Envelope Follower.
This is very educational for a few regulars here, but should be dealt with the neccessary care, because it is under protection.

Hello all.  Going back to the original question I'm curious as to what is the 'no clone zone'?  I would guess it means no copying pedals currently in production or at least no posting schematics of them; but I'm guessing.

Brad

Yes.  Making one for yourself in a nonpublic way is one thing, and posting schematics that make it easy for people to feel like it is open season on that product is another.  It's like talking to a master chef at your favourite restaurant and finding out some cooking secret they use.  One thing if you do it for yourself or company and don't tell anyone.  Quite another if you publish the secret in th the National Enquirer.

I copy whatever I feel like copying. They are only for my amusement, and I generally mod them to bits anyway. I dont post schematics, and the pedals themselves are largely unlabelled. Every time I R.E. a pedal I learn something - sometimes its electronics, sometimes its a better way to wire-up, or lay-out a pcb, sometimes its in the paint/finish. I dont sell them or give them away, and like I said I dont leave them stock.

Would I buy the originals ? Yes - but only the ones I like as stock (eg my Seekwah, Hotcake), as Id be very reluctant to rip an expensive original to bits the way I do my clones. Im lucky that a close friend owns a good music shop and I can usually borrow anything that he gets in.

Quote from: tweaker on December 09, 2005, 11:02:54 AM
Hello all.  Going back to the original question I'm curious as to what is the 'no clone zone'?  I would guess it means no copying pedals currently in production or at least no posting schematics of them; but I'm guessing.

Brad

Mostly, at least round here, it's a courtesy thing.  ZVex is happy to discuss what's in his pedals for the most part, and he knows that there are schems etc floating around, but he requests that they not be posted here.  That is mostly respected.

Similarly the chap from Way Huge doesn't post his schematics, but is happy for people to discuss and/or reverse engineer them and post the schem, even to the point of assisting with identifying parts.

For me, I don't think there is a no-clone zone in terms of individuals building something for themselves, as Mark rightly says it's when these things are put into the public domain and then abused that problems occur.  I would say if in doubt about a schem and it's a forumite, then ask them if they mind it being posted.  Most of the big companies won't bother anyway, as a few clones for personal use aren't even a dent in their sales.  Case in point being Dunlop, they know they have no rights over the Microamp circuit, it was the use of their Trade Dress that caused an issue.  And that is a whole nother thread. :icon_lol:

Thanks for clearing that up guys.  You know I see schematics posted all over the net but I never gave it much thought as to whether it was right or wrong or just fair game on pedals. 

Lets say I take a pedal currently in production, draw a schematic from the traces (all my own work) and post it along with my tips for modifying the pedal.  My mods would be ok to post but not the schematic, right?

Still, I like looking at schematics and trying to figure out how it works. 

Oh, what's a forumite?   :icon_redface:

Brad

Quote from: tweaker on December 09, 2005, 12:46:05 PM
Lets say I take a pedal currently in production, draw a schematic from the traces (all my own work) and post it along with my tips for modifying the pedal.  My mods would be ok to post but not the schematic, right?

I am not a lawyer.  (IANAL)

Just wanted to say that - but here's the scoop:

1.  Schematics themselves are not protected by copyright law.  The devices they represent may be patented, or contain elements protected by patent law however.

2.  A *DRAWING* of a schematic may be protected by copyright law, as a work of art (like a painting or a photograph.)

3.  A PCB layout may be similarly protected

4.  The "trade dress" and appearance of a pedal or device, including but not limited to physical design, graphics, fonts, and logos may be protected by copyright law.  In addition, the physical design of a device may be protected by a "design patent" (a special type of patent.)

So to answer your question:

If you draw a schematic, it can be protected by copyright law

If you make a PCB layout, it can be similarly protected

If you devise modifications to a pedal, the document detailing those mods may be protected.

All of these things are your creation and may be posted or distributed in any way you (the original author of those works) sees fit.  Only the original author or his / her designated agents may post them while they are under proection of copyright law.  If unauthorized persons distribute them or attempt to modify or plaigarize, you may have some legal recourse.

Whether you want to go to the trouble of *FILING* copyright paperwork, or obtaining trademarks or patents is up to you.  I am not a lawyer, but my wife's firm handles Intellectual Property law for a number of well-known corporations, and I would be happy to refer any "forumites" (people who use a forum) to a qualified attorney who can advise better.  This is just what they told ME when I started my business. :)

Matt Farrow

>Lets say I take a pedal currently in production, draw a schematic from the traces (all my own work) and post it along with my tips for modifying the pedal.  My mods would be ok to post but not the schematic, right?

If you drew the whole thing, AFAIK it's fine to post it.

I don't know why people are so hung up on the whole schematic thing.  If you draw a schematic, you can post it on a Times Square billboard if you want.  It's just that this site gives people like Zvex a break.  No big deal. 

Quote from: Fp-www.Tonepad.com on December 08, 2005, 02:29:29 PM
Once somebody is able to identify the circuit blocks that make up a pedal, they have reached an important step in the understanding of pedals and also can now start designing!

Well, almost...  I do an assortment of that- slicing up effects into chunks and pasting them all together.  Problem with that approach, is that if that's *all* you're doing, then chances are you might cobble something together that is good, but could be GREAT, only if you knew how to shift the frequency response a tad, or if you need to rebias a transistor or something.  Suppose you've got it hooked up and it all works, but your opamp overheats and shuts down every three minutes?

That's some of the "next" level stuff that IMHO truly makes you a designer.  Yeah, you can swap parts out, change the values of resistors and capacitors until you find what you're after, but it would be so much more L33T to fiddle with a calculator for a minute and know exactly what you'd need the first time.

I'm getting better at it.  My most current design doesn't resemble any current pedal schematics that i've seen.  It's mostly 'figured out' using mathmatics and National Semiconductor's "serving suggestions" in the datasheet(s).

Of course, since I can't breadboard anything right now, there's no telling if it actually works ;)

Quote from: brad on December 09, 2005, 11:10:25 PM
I don't know why people are so hung up on the whole schematic thing.  If you draw a schematic, you can post it on a Times Square billboard if you want.  It's just that this site gives people like Zvex a break.  No big deal. 

yeah, go Brad go!

spreading that kind of attitude here will surely encourage more or less known originators
to increasingly come to this place more often for lending a helping hand.

Thank you so much!

Quote from: Lurco on December 10, 2005, 08:45:57 AM

Quote from: brad on December 09, 2005, 11:10:25 PM
I don't know why people are so hung up on the whole schematic thing.  If you draw a schematic, you can post it on a Times Square billboard if you want.  It's just that this site gives people like Zvex a break.  No big deal. 

yeah, go Brad go!

spreading that kind of attitude here will surely encourage more or less known originators
to increasingly come to this place more often for lending a helping hand.

Thank you so much!

`nuff said...