Hey Friends,
Looking for a fuzz with muy bueno sustain. I play single-coils through a 1-12 Mesa combo, set clean, at moderate volume level. My Fuzz Face has the tone I want, but it doesn't quite sing. I'm thinking I need another gain stage or two. One of the Tonebenders maybe? All suggestions appreciated!
Joe
Have you tried the FF with a bit of amp gain. She'll sing then.
RDV
Quote from: RDV on December 10, 2005, 03:40:49 PM
Have you tried the FF with a bit of amp gain. She'll sing then.
RDV
Oh sure--but I don't always have the luxury of volume and power. Short of a compressor or multiple fuzzes connected in series, I'm looking for something that goes a little more over the top from the basic FF without making the neighbors call the cops. :icon_wink:
Joe
It's not a fuzz, but the Obsidian Overdrive have a good sustain. Also, some people told me the Big Muff have a good sustain, but I never tried one, so I can't tell you how big is it's sustain.
I understand. I meant preamp gain.
I can email you a Transistor Obsidian schematic if you'd like. Just PM me your email address and I'll send you a couple of schems.
RDV
Quote from: RDV on December 10, 2005, 04:37:52 PM
I understand. I meant preamp gain.
I can email you a Transistor Obsidian schematic if you'd like. Just PM me your email address and I'll send you a couple of schems.
RDV
Gotcha. Preamp gain's a good idea, but I generally leave the amp clean and use an overdrive pedal. You know how it goes--rigs are as different from each other as people.
Thanks for the Obsidian offer--I've got it on my harddrive somewhere. I'll take another look at the circuit, maybe breadboard it. I'm thinking of a sound like Neal Schon used to get on the early (pre-Steve Perry) Journey records. (Yes, kids, long long ago, Journey put out three records before Steve Perry joined and they sold out. . . .) IIRC, he used a Roland Bee Baa. . . .
Joe
I could never get the clean amp/fuzz combo to work the way I wanted. I prefer a little bit of amp dirt to smooth the edges of the fuzz, and a darker EQ than I like for my clean tones. The Foxx Tone Machine can do gobs of sustain, but again it might not yield good results without at least some amp EQ to tame the *hair*. I would try a Big Muff Pi as well.
Kerry M
If you run a comp before your dirt boxes (perhaps not the FF) you get the advantage of having an extra variable gain stage before your dirt and adding sustain. The comp doesn't need to be squashing too much, just enough to add some spanky fat to your clean sound and when you kick in the dirt you get more sustain. I used a combo of Boss CS-2 and Rat for years and it worked great for the time ;).
Lately, I have been using a Rangemaster and an Expandora. I leave the Rangemaster on all the time and kick in the Expandora for leads and OD rhythm. I find the comp unnessesary as my 20W tube combo compresses nicely by itself. I dial back the highs on the amp to balance the Rangemaster, it's a ballsy full sound with dynamic articulate cleans and overdrives so nicely when attacked a bit harder. Note that I am playing cleaner than I used to, favoring good tube amp tone to higher gain type sustain.
When my amp is turned up it can sustain all day with classic feedback etc. I have been playing some fairly big sized rooms and a 20 watt amp is more than enough, even with a heavy hitting drummer and no mic into the PA.
That said, pardon the ramble... if you want to just fret the note and sustain all day, Jordan Bosstone, Big Muff (IC version is nice), I also agree with the above mentioned posters suggestions. You might enjoy adding a Rangemaster in line somewhere. ;)
I basically have to run back and forth changing amp-gain settings if I want a good clean sound as I usually run my preamp high enough for a little breakup at full guitar volume.
I'm trying to come up with a solution to that particular dilemma with my RDV OD (http://aronnelson.com/gallery/Fatboy-Effects/RDV_Overdrive_001?full=1). Preliminary tests are positive but I've got to wait for the next gig to be sure.
RDV
Rangemaster > Tone Bender MKII Pro > Amp Pre-Gain. Set all 3 so that the Ge trannys push the tubes at just the right ammount and that is what Dripping Wet Aural Sex is all about. (2 up-comming designs from myself with these names. Aural Sex and the other with "Dripping Wet" in front so save those names for me please.)
Whisker Biscuit over on ROG Site. Hit a note, lay your guitar down, go on vacation, come back and it'll still be whining!
QuoteI could never get the clean amp/fuzz combo to work the way I wanted. I prefer a little bit of amp dirt to smooth the edges of the fuzz, and a darker EQ than I like for my clean tones. The Foxx Tone Machine can do gobs of sustain, but again it might not yield good results without at least some amp EQ to tame the *hair*. I would try a Big Muff Pi as well.
You're right on about the clean amp/fuzz combo being tricky. I have tried a Foxx Fuzz/Wah/Volume and it did have a nice, dark chocolate sort of sustain. Thanks!
QuoteThat said, pardon the ramble... if you want to just fret the note and sustain all day, Jordan Bosstone, Big Muff (IC version is nice), I also agree with the above mentioned posters suggestions. You might enjoy adding a Rangemaster in line somewhere. :icon_wink:
Ramble on my brother! It's all in the details, the more the better. Compressors have worked for me in the past (and thanks to a friend with a heart of gold I even have an original Ross in my arsenal), but my I'd prefer a one-stomp solution in this case. A bass player I know swears by the Bosstone. I'll have to try that, and Rangemaster too.
QuoteI'm trying to come up with a solution to that particular dilemma with my RDV OD. Preliminary tests are positive but I've got to wait for the next gig to be sure.
Nice-looking circuit RDV. The Mid control with Q looks like it would get a half-%^&*ed wah tone going. Cool!
QuoteRangemaster > Tone Bender MKII Pro > Amp Pre-Gain. Set all 3 so that the Ge trannys push the tubes at just the right ammount and that is what Dripping Wet Aural Sex is all about. (2 up-comming designs from myself with these names. Aural Sex and the other with "Dripping Wet" in front so save those names for me please.)
Great names! :icon_lol: Add a true bypass box to kick them both out at once and call it the "Roll Over And Fall Asleep." :icon_wink:
QuoteWhisker Biscuit over on ROG Site. Hit a note, lay your guitar down, go on vacation, come back and it'll still be whining!
Oooh! Now that's what I'm talkin bout! Hmm, wonder what that would sound like with Ge's in it?
Thanks JM and everybody!
Joe
Hi.
QuoteWhisker Biscuit over on ROG Site
Yep. But it's not a straight fuzz like a Fuzzface. It has those sythetic ringing tones.
The Blackfire goes on forever, but it's super-high gain that you might not want.
I haven't built one, but the McTube should be good for lots of mild fuzzy sustain, given the 12AX7 at its over-driven heart.
cheers
What about a Fetzer valve after the Fuzz Face? Or a mini-booster?
Solving the EQ problem is vital for a versatile Fuzz Face - amp combination. That's why I always put treble cut caps on all Fuzzes without a tone control. When FX is out you don't have that amp that needs to be trebled up again.
A friend of mine has got a 50W plexi with a Marshall attenuator like 19' recording unit he says to be famous. When I put my FX on it they all sound darker in a way, because the amp is always distorting and always on -12dB attenuation. Now I understand why those tonebenders and Faces don't have treble cut...
Yet in a way the amp always sounds "dark". I think one needs a 8" speaker bright "ampie" AND a 12" monster amp to get a wide spectrum, right ;).
Quote from: RDV on December 10, 2005, 11:22:54 PM
I basically have to run back and forth changing amp-gain settings if I want a good clean sound as I usually run my preamp high enough for a little breakup at full guitar volume.
I think I set my stuff up inside-out from the way most people do it. I EQ the amp a little dark and set the preamp gain at 1:00. That helps my rangemaster sing real nice with my humbucker bridge pup. For clean stuff I switch to my single-coil neck pup and turn it down. This is "clean enough" with the rangemaster but it really gets spanky clean with the bronto boost, npn boost, or hwy89 (which stays in a separate loop with the buffered stuff (delay, chorus) for the occasional ballad). I don't switch my distortion pedals on/off during songs. I usually pick which one I want to use for a particular tune and leave it on throughout the whole thing.
It seems kind of cheesy in a way but it really works. :icon_exclaim: The combination of the low Zin pedal and a small treble-leak cap on my guitar vol pot helps. I get a full bodied twanky fender sound for the clean stuff this way, and just twist my volume knob (or switch to the bridge pup) to add mids and distortion.
Doug
The sustainiest fuzz I ever made and still use is the Suppa Tone Bender-Lots of sustain......
Peace!
Arn C.
Just getting the voltage levels up well over the clipping threshold means hard distorted sound [distorted sound for some reason 'sounds' louder], and also means that as the note half dies, the output is still near max. This alone makes 'light input' sound loud-er/long-er. Most fuzzes can be made to do this. Whether the tone is what you want is another matter. The 'louder' percieved volume of distortion, and the hard edges of the wave also tend to 'get/keep the string moving' of course a Fuzz box doesn't even sound by itself, it needs an amp and guitar etc...
That oversimpified explanation pretty sort of sums up sustainey Fuzz, or at least provides the basic theory..
other ways to sustain
Guitar that has natural sustain [with no amp, notes last, dont die out fast]
Loud Amp [this one can be made to work with or without distortion/compression]
Compression/limiting...raising the amplitude of a low level signal to that of a high level signal, limiting max signal level...making it appear to not die out so fast.
The 'traditional way' to get sustain uses...speaker>air>guitarwood> strings>pickup>effect chain and amp>speaker [a 'multi item feedback loop']
The Fuzz with the most sustain would be the FF, it's been 'known' to *help sustain notes, and been around the longest....up for debate...
I'll agree with Arn.C. The Supa Tonebender has impressive sustain. It just hangs on till it feeds back. This one is supposedly a Big Muff minus one gain stage. It sure sounds 'muffy' to me (hey, wasn't she in that sorority Beta Mu Pi?).
Go for whatever double clipper suits your tonal taste. The thing about double clipper is they act more or less like a built in compressor. Assuming they have enough output level to make your amp act as a third clipper section, and your speakers can make the guitar body vibrate, you should be able to hang onto a note at what appears to be a constant level for a long time. Many of the suggestions offered in this thread are double clippers.
Quote from: Doug_H on December 12, 2005, 08:58:07 AM
I don't switch my distortion pedals on/off during songs. I usually pick which one I want to use for a particular tune and leave it on throughout the whole thing.
It seems kind of cheesy in a way but it really works. :icon_exclaim:
I use this approach as well. It never sounds *organic* to me if I go from clean w/ no FX, to distortion via a stompbox. I prefer the spectrum and shadings I get using my guitar volume knob with an OD or fuzz engaged. WIth a Nobels ODR1 into a AMZ Mosfet boost, I get a nice spectrum of *clean* to singing drive/sustain using the guitar volume (and a clean amp setting). I will sometimes use another OD (usually a RAT) as an *afterburner* though.
Kerry M
Well, here's a report: I don't normally connect fuzzes in series, but on an earlier hunch, re-echoed by Mr. Hammer's "double clippers" post, I hooked two FF's together, both set to about the same level and fuzz, and it's exactly the sound I want. Even at a very moderate volume (I can still hear the telephone ring), it hangs on and on, and chords are still remarkably distinct. Both fuzzes are PNP, one has two "fake" NKT275's, and the other has a 2N5089 driving an AC188. The dual germanium fuzz sounds best first in the signal chain--something about coils driving the germanium sounds sweeter to me. It cleans up surprisingly well with the guitar volume turned down, but the whole mess is a little noisy. That may not pose a problem though, since I'll be too busy sustaining and feeding-back to notice. :icon_biggrin:
Supa Tonebender: Are you guys talking about the Marshall Supa Fuzz found here: http://fuzzcentral.tripod.com/benderII.html ? (1/3rd of the way down the page) Or are you referring to some other version? I can see how this would certainly provides lots of compressy fuzz with that extra grounded-emitter input stage. That looks like the way to go, or possibly some kind of double Fuzz Face. Siamese Screamer? Bipolar Disorder? Double Trouble? Bearded Hypocrite?
Joe
I was talking about the "Vox Suppa Tone Bender"
Peace!
Arn C.
Found it on GGG--Thanks Arn!
Joe
Mine is the Colorsound Supa Tonebender.
 Sounds like you've figured this out...
FF into FF is a serious FUZZ.
That's fun too.
Can be unruly :icon_twisted:
FF into FF...My Tonebenders sounded great, a couple times at least.
I got the amp built and have been retrying all the Fuzz combos, GeFF>Minibooster...one fine fuzz/ODBoost dept.
Hi.
If I recall, the Colorsound Tonebender is a fuzzface with an extra stage. Quite like 2 fuzzfaces with the first set to "mild".
cheers